97 Camry with (quite a few) problems... fix it or cut and run?

[fordfan4life]

Warning: Long post ahead!

So my aunt has a 97 Camry LE V6. It has pretty much all the options you could get on an LE in 97.

It's got 156,000 miles on it or so. She has put off a number of major repairs for various problems that have slowly begun to crop up over the past 3 or 4 years, so here's what's wrong with it:

1: Check engine light has been on for 2 or 3 years. Last I checked it (about a year ago) the code just had to do with the O2 sensors. Because it was running fine, she didn't have it fixed. At the moment, there may be more codes as more sensors, etc. have failed, I just don't know, haven't checked yet.
2: For the past couple of years, there has been that stereotypical clunking sound from the front suspension when going over bumps, representing worn bushings or whatever. It also definitely needs new struts.
3: The "burned out tail light" dashboard warning light has been on forever, but all parking/brake lights appear to work fine, so I don't know what that's about.
4: A few years ago, she had a problem with it stalling when in gear at a stop, so she would have to pop it in neutral to keep it running. That problem seems to have disappeared, though.
5: Intermittently, the Tach doesn't work. Tapping on the gauge cluster or banging a fist on the dash sometimes "fixes" this.
6: Last year, she noticed that typical noisy whine/groan when turning (anyone who has encountered a car w/ low power steering fluid knows this noise well). I came over and topped off the PS fluid reservoir, which stopped the noise, but it is still slowly leaking from somewhere (I haven't determined where), so she refills the reservoir each time the noise comes back (every few weeks or so). If it's just a leaky hose or reservoir, I suppose the fix wouldn't be too bad, but I'm worried it might be the rack.
7: Last summer, the driver's outside door handle snapped; she had her boyfriend jerry-rig a fix by screwing a piece of metal to the opening mechanism to facilitate lifting the handle, but it certainly doesn't look professional.
8: Last summer, the A/C went out. She determined that it was the compressor (because as soon as the A/C button is pushed [which would engage the compressor], the related fuse would blow, shutting the whole HVAC system off), so she went the rest of the summer with no A/C. Her boyfriend replaced the compressor clutch, to no avail. When winter came, she replaced the fuse and made sure she never pushed the A/C button, which allowed her to have heat. A couple of weeks ago, even this stopped working; even without the A/C button pushed in, as soon as the fan was turned on, it would work for about a half a second, and the fuse would blow again. So now she has no heat, no airflow of any kind, and the rear electronic defrost doesn't work because it's on the same circuit.
9: Over the winter, she began to notice an odd chemical smell coming through the vents when at a stop after the car was warmed up. I determined that it was coming from oil that was leaking on the exhaust manifold from the rear valve cover (the gaskets have failed, I suppose).

Aside from those issues, she has more or less stayed on top of regular maintenance (i.e. regular, timely oil changes, but not with synthetic oil)... the car's been in the family since new, and has never been abused, so I can pretty safely say that none of these issues stem from the car being driven hard and put away wet (the vast majority of the miles are highway; she doesn't use it much outside of the commute). The brakes have been replaced recently, the tires are only about a year old, and the timing belt/tensioner/water pump were replaced last year at 140,000 miles (this is the one preventive maintenance procedure I've been able to talk her into doing ). But that's about the extent of all of the repairs that she has done. Overall, the vehicle's in kinda rough cosmetic shape: she doesn't ever wash it or vacuum it, there's quite a few rock chips in the hood, the headlights are fogged over, the aforementioned door handle looks very, um, ridiculous, a few buttons and knobs have come off the radio... all of this is fine for her, she doesn't care; ultimately it's the mechanical issues that are concerning us. But one must keep in mind that when it comes to the vehicle's value if she decides to sell it, the mechanical problems combined with the poor cosmetic condition will result in a very low sale value.

Anyway, now that the HVAC system doesn't work at all, she's on the verge of making a move (either ditching this car and getting another, or investing in repairs for this one). The HVAC failure has forced her to address the issue of repairs (she refuses to go through another VA summer without A/C during her 50 minute commute to and from work every day)... to be honest, if this hadn't happened, she probably would have just continued to ignore the other mechanical problems until something big broke.

So she brought it yesterday to a local auto shop for a full diagnosis of all problems and the cost to fix them all, so she could start making her decision. The mechanic kinda gave it a once-over, and quoted an off-the-record ballpark figure of about $3,000 for everything (but qualified this by saying that he couldn't be completely accurate with a beforehand quote because some of the problems can't be fully diagnosed without tearing into the respective part and charging labor for that, i.e. what's exactly wrong with the compressor/HVAC system, etc., AND the possibility that he would discover more problems during the repairs). This, combined with what he called "difficulty of finding parts for an older car" led him to recommend that she just get rid of it.

So she called me today with all of this information, asking my opinion. She doesn't have much in the way of spare cash to spend, so if she decided to keep the car and fix it, the repairs would probably have to be staggered (i.e. most important things first, wait a couple of months for her to save for the next job which would cover the 2nd most important things, and so on), or if she bought another car, it would have to be used, in the neighborhood of $10-15k, and have to last at least 100,000 miles before any major repairs.

Personally, I'm a big advocate for (a) taking care of cars, and therefore (b) keeping them as long as possible, so I wasn't too keen on this specific mechanic's recommendation (nor his estimated price of repairs). That being said, though, such a philosophy is only applicable if you know what sorts of problems that particular make and model of car may have in the future (i.e. trying to keep a Chevy Vega for 200,000 miles would unquestionably be an exercise in futility, resulting in a lot of money wasted ). I personally don't have any experience with Toyotas, let alone this specific vehicle/engine/transmission combo, simply because I haven't owned one, nor have researched them much before. If she had a VW or Ford made within the past 20 years, I could be more helpful, but that's not the case. I mean, I know popular opinion states that Toyotas are generally very reliable, and can certainly be kept for many years and many miles, but I've also heard of sludge problems with this particular engine, so I really don't know what to say... not only that, but the problems the car has had thus far seem to be a bit excessive, especially considering it's a Toyota (heh, if it was a VW, I'd actually be surprised that these were the only problems she'd had )


Whew... OK, so this is where you guys come in. I'd love some opinions, thoughts, advice, etc. regarding the following questions:

Should we fix it? If so: Ballpark, how much should a service repairing all of these issues run? What really needs to be fixed ASAP, and what could probably wait awhile? How many more things are likely to fail (i.e. what are some typical trouble spots on these vehicles that we haven't encountered just yet, and how difficult/costly are those repairs likely to be)? What are the maintenance procedures that she hasn't had done yet that should be factored into the equation to extend the vehicle's life (like, maybe a transmission fluid, coolant, or brake fluid flush?)? Are the engine/transmission actually good for another 5 years/50-100,000 miles of service? Regarding the sludging issue: I've heard that engines that fail, usually do so before 100,000 miles... because we're a bit beyond that, are we out of the woods, or is the sludge buildup just progressing more slowly (and still may rear its ugly head sometime in the future)?

If we should just cut and run, what would be a good vehicle for her? I have my own opinions regarding the answer to this question, but any suggestions are welcome! Requirements: used, no older than 2004, between $10-15k, will last another 100,000 miles with few expensive repairs, gets at least 24 mpg combined, at least a midsize sedan (no smaller than this Camry... she's really jonesing for a SUV or small truck, but can't justify such a vehicle as practical, considering the gas mileage and her long commute, but would love something bigger than she has now to address her discomfort with dealing with the big semis on her commute), engine hopefully at least as powerful as the V6 in the Camry; creature comforts/luxurious options are not necessary... as long as it has A/C, heat, and a radio with CD player. She'd even consider a manual transmission, but would prefer an automatic.

Or, alternate opinions? For example, fix a few things (to increase the value of the car), but then still sell it before any more problems crop up?

Also, any thoughts or comments on the specific problems mentioned in the "what's wrong with it now" section would be more than appreciated


I know this was a long post, and I thank you so much for bearing with me through it, and a huge preemptive thank-you for any advice you can give!!!

[Brian R.]

IMO, the real cost here is the air conditioning and the PS leak, although I am not in a position to give you an estimate on the cost. The A/C may be something as simple as a bad piece of wire. The power steering issue also needs to be diagnosed. It may just need a hose clamp or fitting tightened. The rear lights are probably just a short in the wire look by the trunk hinge. Fixing whatever is found there with some insulating tape/soldering is probably all that's necessary.

Find out what codes occur when you delete the codes and she drives it for a week. Old codes may just complicate things.

All in all, there are too many unknowns here with potential really trivial costs or really large costs. These have to be looked at by a competent mechanic. I would take it to someone who knows Toyotas. The guy she took it to previously didn't have a clue. Parts on that car, for the most part, are really easy to get since there are so many still on the road. The cost may be close to what he quoted or not, but you can't know since he is really not interested.

These Camrys can last for a really long time if you have taken care of the engine. Regular oil changes preclude sludge formation. Your aunt is potentially going to save a lot of money by fixing this car, IF the problems are not the highest costing potential repairs. Replacing a rack or a A/C compressor may be done with used ones from a salvage yard and should be easy to find. The struts are not a high-buck item. The valve cover gasket is not either.

Don't forget, buying a used car can entail unforseen costs. Keep what you know as problems unless you find it's impossible.

Check the CV boots for tears/leaking grease and the tranmsission fluid color. Replace the transmission fluid if it needs it. You are taking a chance if it is really bad and nasty smelling.

Get the A/C diagnosed and fixed first after you get a good estimate on the PS leak, taking into account using salvage parts. I think nothing else could screw the pooch.

[Mike Gerber]

^ I have to agree with what Brian posted.

In addition, you can get the codes read for free at any Autozone store, if you have them in your area. Mark down the codes and you can post them back here for some additional help on what they may mean.

Mike.

[fordfan4life]

I'm definitely going to recheck the codes as soon as I get back into town and have a chance to look at it. Mr. Mechanic wrote all of his recommendations down, including the various sensors, etc. that are causing the CEL (apparently, there are more codes now than just the lone O2 sensor code that I read off the vehicle a year ago), but she couldn't read his handwriting when she was telling me everything over the phone. So we'll see.

As for finding a salvage/used parts... I'm just worried that using a used, say, steering rack, might not be very long-term... I was reading the FAQ posting on Camrys, which included information on replacing steering racks... is this a common problem? If so, wouldn't installing a used steering rack just be a band-aid for another 20,000 miles or so before it develops the same (or different, possibly) problem, requiring a replacement again?

Thanks for the recommendations so far, though! I'm passing on the information as it comes in and I agree wholeheartedly that she should probably keep it, just as long as we have enough info to justify that course of action

[Brian R.]

I am not aware of any consistent problem with Camry steering racks. Anything is bound to fail once in a while. This is not a problem I have seen more than once or twice here.

Another thing to do would be to get a compression check and make sure all the cylinders are good. Cheap insurance.

[Mike Gerber]

Remember, it may not be the rack. It could be as simple as a hose. It may be fairly easy to determine the source of the leak. Take a look when you can. You may have to clean the area to see the source.

Mike

[2000izusu]

you can get parts anywhere. the mechanic is lying. why don't you get a second opinion? mike

[fordfan4life]

First, a couple of really trivial corrections... the car only has 147,000 miles, and the power steering fluid leak is a lot slower than I initially said (she refills it every month or so, at most).

Ok, so I checked the CEL codes at Advance on Thursday evening, this is what came up (codes + description, as given by the OBDII reader):

P0100: MAF or VAF circuit malfunction
P0110: IAT Sensor circuit malfunction
P0135: 02 Sensor Heater circuit malfunction Bank 1 Sensor 1

The OBDII computer hasn't been cleared in years, though... a year or two ago, the only code was the P0135. The other two are more recent. I had the guy at Advance clear the codes for me, and will go and have them read again this weekend sometime after she's driven it a bit (as you guys suggested).

The CEL didn't reappear during the 7 mile trip back to her house (again, this was Thurs. night). She drove it a little over the next couple of days, and the light didn't come back on until Saturday night. Also, the car drove like a dream on the trip to and from Advance (no engine misfires, hesitation, odd shifts... nothing). A little like riding on a balloon from the worn out shocks, but other than that... it really doesn't seem like a car requiring $3k worth of repairs

When I got back, I poked around the engine bay a little, but by then it was pretty dark, so I couldn't really see much. I did check the transmission fluid, which looked a little burned, so I'm guessing a flush is probably in order for that at some point.

Anyway, w/ regard to the O2 sensor code, from what I can discern from a little research is that the O2 sensor is probably bad, and it is located in a really fun spot (close to the firewall). Can't wait to do that one.

Also, from my research, it looks like the IAT and MAF are all one unit, so barring any electrical shorts or corroded contacts, replacing the unit should cure that problem.

Of course, this is all preliminary. We won't do anything until I re-check the codes this weekend to see which ones have come back, etc. I'm most hesitant about the MAF unit... with my experience with VWs, if the MAF sensor is bad, you KNOW it without really even checking the CEL code (misfiring, poor performance/gas mileage, stalling, etc), so considering the engine runs like a damn top I'm a little skeptical that this is causing a problem. We'll just see, I suppose.

I've also been poking around online to try and find someone in the Richmond, VA area that can service automotive HVAC systems for a reasonable figure, but haven't been met with much success so far. I'll make some more calls tomorrow when I get a minute.



Anyway, it's all a work in progress. I will admit, it's a nice change working on a car that, for the most part, considering its age, does the basic functions it was designed for (as a mode of transportation) very well, and very reliably. I mean, I love my Jetta, but for God's sake, every time I turn around it's got another weird-ass problem. I just failed a state inspection today because my rear brake pads are worn to almost nothing (I didn't check them before because there's sensors built into the front brakes that will illuminate a dashboard warning light when they get low). What other car can you possibly name that biases the rear brakes much more than the fronts by design, but then only has sensors on the front?? Crazy Germans. Fahrvergnügen indeed.

[Brian R.]

Germans love to drive backwards fast....

[jdmccright]

Since 70% of your stopping power is done by the front brakes, having worn out rear brakes is less hazardous than having worn out front brakes.

I'd say that with the need for a new A/C and new struts all around (the two most expensive things to deal with here), and with the smattering of other things to fix, $3,000 may be on the high end of the cost range to get her Cam back in top shape but not unreasonable.

On the flip side, taking that money and putting a down payment on a newer car could be a less-stressful and possibly better way of making sure that everything on her car will work for a long time. You can fix the Cam, but you'll end up worrying what will break next. Rough trade-in on your Cam would be around $1,500 to $2,000. Add the ~$3,000 you'd spend on repairs and that's about $5k towards a newer Camry or other car that would offer more reliable transportation. Hope this helps!

Rough
Trade-InAverage
Trade-InClean
Trade-InClean
RetailBase Price$1,875$2,650$3,275$5,225Mileage - 147,000 milesN/AN/AN/AN/AOptionsPower Seat$50$50$50$75Leather Seats$100$100$100$125Power Sunroof$125$125$125$150TOTAL PRICE$2,150$2,925$3,550$5,575

[fordfan4life]

Well, re: my brakes, apparently VW removed some type of check valve on the rear brakes that controls the bias when they added ABS to their entry level models (i.e. the Jetta) in the late 90s. This means that, when 70% braking power should be supplied to the fronts (where there are beefier pads and rotors, and sensors that notify the driver when the pads get low), actually the rears receive the majority of this power, wearing them much faster. So, while it may not be so hazardous, it means that, on average, the rear pads need to be replaced every 20-30k miles, which is ridiculous. Oh well, at least they're of a rather conventional design, and replacing the pads isn't very difficult.

About my Aunt getting a new car, well, that's a little out of the question. She doesn't want to necessarily downgrade in size or engine power, so a new vehicle fitting at least those requirements, from what I can tell, would be at least $25k. While a new vehicle would most certainly be more reliable, the cost is prohibitive simply because she is on a fixed income and probably would have difficulty affording the payments, especially since she doesn't have the best credit, so she probably wouldn't qualify for the low interest rates that all dealers are advertising nowadays (0%, 0.9%, 1.9%, etc). So, if she were to purchase a different vehicle, it would have to be a used one priced between $10 and $15k at the most. The vehicles fitting this price point and her requests tend to have somewhat higher mileage, increasing the probability that they would have maintenance issues sooner rather than later, and then she'd kinda be in the same boat she's in now, plus a car payment. So, considering all of this and the relatively low likelihood that some other major component will need replacing or fixing within the next couple of years (i.e. a $1500+ repair) on her current car, I think hanging on to it for now is probably the best idea... hopefully Time will tell, I suppose.

Also, her boyfriend is mechanically inclined, but not motivationally inclined (at least, not when it comes to working on her car). I know he can't deal with the A/C issues, but pretty much everything else he should easily be able to fix. It's just figuring out a way to get him under the hood...