just wont run right!!!!! 2001 cylinder 4 misfire


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bradw18
02-27-2010, 03:28 PM
would doing a freeze frame while im at highway speeds give me any more information?

danielsatur
02-27-2010, 03:40 PM
All data will help!
How doe's she run cold?
How doe's she run Hot?
How doe's she run WOT?

Are you just getting a stumble during Idle?

Is she slow to react, when you put the pedal

to metal (WOT)?

bradw18
02-27-2010, 04:18 PM
at wot car hesitates when going to idle to wot but if your up in rpms it dont. it dont run any diffrent when its cold or hot it idles ruff at any temp. car runs like its sapose to just as long as your above 1800 rpms.

bradw18
02-27-2010, 04:46 PM
the more i read on the internet and in other fourms im finding that there cars have jumped time also. one thing i didnt do is take a compression test on on of the other bank to compare them....

one guy said his car is ruff idleing but after that its fine. and his turned out to be a warn out timing guide or something like that. i can unplug my whole bank 1s injectors and it dont make any diffrence.

danielsatur
02-27-2010, 05:16 PM
What! Pull all injector wires off on bank1, and she runs on 4-cylinders.

Lets not unplug anything, and run her until she throw's a DTC.

What's common with the Air/fuel mix timing on bank 1 during Idle?
A cam sensor on bank1, but it works fine above 1800rpm's!

If the air/fuel mixture timing was off on bank1, because Cam sensor voltage out of range, it should throw a code.


If Dual OHC timing was off, it would fail a compression test, and worn tensioners would be noisy.

Stumbling during idle + hesitation upon WOT could be just a dirty throttle body, or IAC.
See http://www.jcna.com/forums/view.php?Vref=JCNA&Vfnum=160&Vthread=4420

shorod
02-27-2010, 06:12 PM
It would be worth taking compression measurements on bank 2 as well to make sure bank 1 and bank 2 are within 10-15% of each other. If the timing were off only as much as a worn chain tensioner would allow, you won't necessarily notice that in the compression numbers from one Bank 1 Cylinder to the next. It still seems odd that the only code you'd be getting is a #4 misfire code.

-Rod

bradw18
02-27-2010, 07:12 PM
everything i have been replacing or have loosened up has already been replaced or is already loose... somebody has been trying to figure out the problem to this car for quite some time...

if the timing is off a little then a compression test wouldnt really show up....

why its only showing misfire on cyl 4 i have no idea...

at a idle if i unplug any injector on bank 2 the idle gets worse if i unplug all the injectors on bank 1 the idle dont change...

i have a new iac coming for it monday or tuesday i looked into the throtal body and it looked clean...

danielsatur
02-27-2010, 07:17 PM
Did this car throw another code yet?
How did she run on the highway?

bradw18
02-27-2010, 07:18 PM
im thinking all the computer knows is what the 02s are telling it... that bank 1 is rich.... there for adding less fuel to the injectors when its really out of time...

danielsatur
02-27-2010, 07:28 PM
True - Bank1 fuel/air timing mix is off!

1) You got a new air metering device (MAF), and new upstream O2 sesnors for feedback.
2) Compression - OK
3) Catalytic exhaust - OK
4) Fuel Test - OK
5) Smoke test for unmetered air leaks - pending.

Are you are still getting a P0304?

bradw18
02-27-2010, 07:39 PM
still getting cyl 4 misfire its never gone away...

no other codes were thrown at hwy speeds except bank 1 rich and bank 2 lean

danielsatur
02-27-2010, 07:53 PM
Are you sure the signal wires going to injector 4, and cop 4 are good?

It sounds like it was hitting on all cylinders above 1800rpms, but lower rpms bank1
would misfire.

bradw18
02-27-2010, 07:58 PM
put a test light on them its getting the same signal as all others.... would the cam sensor be sending the wrong signal under 1800rmps???

bradw18
02-27-2010, 08:10 PM
i know cyl 2 ad 4 are firing at idle cause i had a problem with 2 also in the begining but it was just a coil pack i think.... i put a new one on it and put a extra plug in it and grounded it... it was sparking. did the same thing to 4 and it sparked.

danielsatur
02-27-2010, 08:17 PM
The cam sensor generates a singal from 0V-5V, it tell's the ECU when to fire on #4, it missed!

Bank 1 #4 cylinder is the last cylinder to fire on bank1.
The spark plug fired, but was it in time for the compression stroke on cylinder #4?

How much work is it to roll the cam sensor from bank 1 to bank 2?

Found a Cam sensor test, see www.youtube.com/watch?v=itMXO56z1tw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=itMXO56z1tw)

bradw18
02-27-2010, 09:55 PM
i do have an oscilla scope at college... maybe i could putt it in my electronic class and hook her up...

i bet more its a bad sensor then the timing... what do yall think...

shorod
02-27-2010, 11:44 PM
i have a new iac coming for it monday or tuesday i looked into the throtal body and it looked clean...

As long as you've found a place that will let you return these parts, okay, but the IAC does not make sense for the symptoms you have described so far. If there's a chance that the place won't let you return it, don't bother putting a new IAC on.

I don't recall the history of your car, have you changed out the battery recently, or checked the age of the battery?

-Rod

danielsatur
02-28-2010, 10:03 AM
Are you still taking your car in on Monday for a vacuum leak smoke test?
Also see smoke testing for a compression leak on cylinder 4.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=9JQSQlnWuF0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9JQSQlnWuF0) , this smoke test can pinpoint a bad Intake , or exhaust valve leaks on cylinder 4 @ tdc.

Compression Test - ok
Catalytic Exhaust Test - ok
HO2 sensors - ok
MAF sensor - ok
Fuel Test - ok
Load Test on Batt + Alt - ok
Vaccum leak smoke test - pending
Cam sensor on bank 1 - ?

Notes- The Ecu is telling us bank1 is running rich, and cylinder 4 misfires.
Cylinder 4 power stroke needs - compression, proper air/fuel mix, and fire.

bradw18
02-28-2010, 12:38 PM
the smoke test on cyl 4 would probally show if a valve is off time wouldnt it... or something is stuck open or something battery is good got all that tested and stuff.... only reason i was getting iac was soembody told me to clean in im 100 percent sure advance will return everything.... buddy is the manager hahahaha

i hope they dont charge double to do the smoke test on cyl 4 and the vacuum system...

danielsatur
02-28-2010, 01:00 PM
@Tdc on cylinder 4 with injected smoke, the valves should be closed.

If smoke is coming out the tail on bank 1, the exhaust valves are bad on #4.

If smoke is coming out the intake, the Intake valves are bad on #4.

Your compression test tells me, that your good.
If your getting a smoke test done, it's worth the time to have a second opion(compression) on cylinder #4.

A compression leak down test is better!

You can do the same test yourself by using a regulated 100psi of air, through the spark plug hole @tdc on #4.
see www.youtube.com/watch?v=jG_RWs8ckp4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jG_RWs8ckp4), If more than .05% leakage could cause your misfire.

If cam chain timing was off = bent valves, and no compression on more than one cylinder.
All other cylinders seem tobe good.

If a electrical signal was lost on a cam sensor, fuel injector, cop, it would give a bad air, fuel, ignition timing on cylinder 4.


I would keep the HO2 sensors, and the MAF sensor.
How many miles are on this car?

bradw18
02-28-2010, 03:05 PM
137xxx miles... i have done tried the maf sensor it didnt change anything...

bradw18
02-28-2010, 03:19 PM
and there are 2 new upstream 02s on it also

danielsatur
02-28-2010, 03:30 PM
When the problem is fixed on cylinder 4, I want you see all 252 horses out of this car.
Because of Age + mileage, it's was time for a new MAF + upstream HO2 sensors.

The MAF + HO2 sensors will get contaminated over the years + mileage, these sensors need tobe good for the ECU to give the proper air/fuel mix.

You need alot of air + fuel to feed 252 horses!
If you think you got problems, what about the horse sh_ _ in NewYork city, befor Wallst + American Auto industry.
LOL - It's just BS now!

You might consider disconnecting injector 4, so there's less rich fuel being dumped.
12%hp gone
What would the stft + ltft on bank1 look like?

If the compression leak test fails on cylinder 4, lets pull another injector wire (#8), reflash ecu, and turn into a V6.
We could return the MAF, buy a used ECU for a Lincoln LS V6 , and tell nobody.
We also could use the two spare cylinders (4,8) for compressed air!
Air suspension ride, Air brakes, Air horn (Train), or a Jake brake.

How about a water cooled twin cylinders(4 & 8) Super Charged Turbo!
Force air back into the intake & get some hp back.

bradw18
02-28-2010, 10:21 PM
wow.... thats a new one....

i just want it to run right :banghead:

shorod
03-01-2010, 07:37 AM
You might need to re-evaluate if unplugging the injectors to all of bank 1 really has no impact, even if it's just below 1800 rpms. I really struggle to understand how that could be the case and you'd only be seeing a cylinder #4 misfire. What about if you shut the engine off with bank 1 injectors unplugged, then try to restart, will it?

Continuing to throw sensors at this car is not going to fix anything if it's just a #4 misfire or really even if all of bank 1 is non-functioning at low rpm, with the possible exception of the knock sensor or CPS. Maybe you can get your buddy at Advance to sell you one of the high-end scan tools, then take it back after you get your car fixed too.

-Rod

danielsatur
03-01-2010, 09:13 AM
Test's are cheaper than parts, doing a leak down test on cylinder 4 will rule out any wear + tear on that cylinder.
If the leak down test fails on cylinder 4, don't waste money on the smoke test.
If test passe's, it's worth doing the smoke test to rule out any unmeter air leaks.

The ltft was still running rich on bank1 above 2300rpms, the cylinder could be leaking some compression, befor compression stroke on cylinder 4.
A regular compression test & smoke test for compression leak will not determind how long the compression is good for, like a compression leak down test.

How much did you pay for this car @ auction?

danielsatur
03-01-2010, 02:46 PM
Notes-
The ECU is having tbl getting the Air/fuel mix 14.7:1 ratio for a closed-loop engine control.

The ECU sets the fuel mixture, a negative fuel trim precentage indicates the ECU is trying to lean out fuel mixture to compensate for a preceived rich condition.

The upstream HO2 sensor on bank 1 sensed the rich condition, because of misfire on cylinder 4 on bank 1.

Original failures: P0171,P0302, and P0304, it sounds like you weeded out some of the problems, except for the P0304.

egddiesel
03-01-2010, 05:17 PM
I looked at the cam position sensors and knock seners on mine today thinking maybe they were on the blink. Dissconnected knock sensors-didnt make a difference, checked resistance on both CMP-around 2100 ohms, took ac voltage readings on the CMP while cranking the engine, pulled fuel pump relay so it wouldnt start, got around 0.3 volts AC on both of them-should be above 0.25 volts, the voltage and resistance are in spec with what the tech manual says to look for, might try checking them on yours. I have swapped the injectors from bank 2 to 1 so they shouldnt be the problem. But the fact that I can still disconnect all the injectors on bank 2 and it not miss any worse makes me think its got to be an issure related to just that bank i.e. knock sensor or CMP but I wasent able to find any issure with them-disconnecting the knock senor should prevent it from messing with injection shouldnt it? Oh yeah ran the engine with both CMP unplugged, didnt think it would run with them unhooked but it did and still ran the same all messed up on bank 2. One of us has to find some thing sooner or later as to whats going on, wish I could find another 04 V8 LS just to swap the PCM out with and make sure thats not the problem.

danielsatur
03-01-2010, 05:50 PM
Need to perform a Cylinder leak down test on cylinder 4.
A standard compression test, or smoke test on cylinder 4 isn't good enough.
If this cylinder dosn't hold a comprssion long enough, it could misfire.
By disconnecting sensors, the ECU is probably using a default mode to run engine.

See Video - www.youtube.com/watch?v=jG_RWs8ckp4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jG_RWs8ckp4)

bradw18
03-01-2010, 08:02 PM
ill do a leak down test tomorro... im bout to trade the car off for a 1994 trans am...

i only paid 2200 for the car

danielsatur
03-01-2010, 08:56 PM
If this test fails, your LS is still worth more in parts!

$2.2K for a 2001 LS 4.0 + Education = A pretty good deal

How many parts did you take back?

bradw18
03-01-2010, 09:20 PM
all of them that didnt do anything... i kept 02s though... if i could find somebody to fix the ls i would

bradw18
03-01-2010, 09:25 PM
i thought education would go good with a good deal... but come to find out the ls is a little harder to work on then i though...

shorod
03-01-2010, 09:28 PM
The test of unplugging both CMP sensors and the engine still runs demonstrates that the CKP is fine.

See if you can find a noid light set to confirm injector pulse to bank 1.

-Rod

danielsatur
03-01-2010, 10:27 PM
Troubleshoot P0304 - cylinder #4
A single cylinder 4-stroke problem on the power stroke.

4-strokes-
1) Intake stroke - Air/fuel mix control from ECU.
2) Compression stroke -Compress air/fuel mix
3) Power stroke - Compress air/fuel is ignited
4) Exhaust stroke - ok

If any of 4-strokes is lost = misfire!

TESTS-
1) Inake stroke - The HO2 sensors data stream for stft + ltft was telling the ECU stuff isn't right!
2) compression Test- compression leak down test only!
3) Power stroke - COP ignition signal
4) Exhaust - Catalytic converter test

shorod
03-02-2010, 07:50 AM
if i could find somebody to fix the ls i would

There have been soooo many posts in this thread I don't think anyone can keep them all straight, I certainly can't. Let's try to limit the number of posts in this thread so a reader doesn't need to flip between 4 or 5 pages of the thread to see what's been tried. Maybe go for a single daily synopsis instead of several 1 line posts throughout the day. And let's discontinue non-value-added responses.

As far as finding someone who could fix this car, I think someone with the correct tools should be able to rather quickly determine where the problem lies (lack of good spark, lack of compression, vacuum leak, out of time, lack of correct/sufficient injector pulse). It might be expensive, but it still might be worth it in the long run. I wouldn't necessarily suggest a dealer with their higher labor rate, but if you ask around to friends and co-workers, or maybe your buddy at Advance, you can probably identify a good technician in your area with experience working on and troubleshooting modern cars.

Don't discount issues with the electrical system on these cars though. I've experienced, as have several others, an old battery causing odd driveability issues. And in most cases the battery passed a load test. If the battery is 3 or more years old, I'd seriously consider changing it if you plan to keep the car for long and see if that has any effect on your symptoms.

-Rod

egddiesel
03-03-2010, 12:55 PM
Alright found the problem with my brothers 2004 Lincoln LS V8 60,000 miles on it. Initial problem was rough idle and a slight chatter from the engine under load when it reved just over 4000 RPM., and a foul smelling exhaust. But the engine still had plenty of power when you stepped on it. When I shot the exhaust manifolds with an infared gun bank 2 was running much colder then bank 1. The trouble codes were Running rich on bank 2, lean on bank 1 and misfires on cylinders 5,6,7 and 8. Could not get all those misfires to repeat them selves on all cyliders just 5 and 8. On bank 2 the one with the rich DTC I could dissconnect all the injectors on that bank and it would not idle any wores, but on bank 1 each injector I dissconnected it would miss wores, noticiable difference. First I switched all the COP's from bank 2 to 1-no change, swapped injectores from bank 2 to 1-no change. Checked for proper voltages to and resistance readings of all coils, injectors, cam postion sensors-all good. Checked back pressure readings on both cats-good. When injectors and fuel rail were pulled turned KOEO, no dripping fuel injectors. Took compression readings on all cyliders good. Changed fuel filter, check fuel PSI-it was 55 PSI. Put new O2's in both banks the fwd ones. None of this made a difference.

THE PROBLEM: I pulled the valve cover for bank 2-the one with all the issuse. Found the thrust collar on the intake cam shaft had broken allowing the intake cam to slide aft-it still could contact the intake valves but was out of alignment. Also found that the exhaust cam on bank 2 had jumped 1 or 2 teeth advancing the exhaust cam. Originally when I pulled the cover I was looking for a collapsed chain tensioner but found a much worse issuse-secondary tensioner on that bank appears to be good.

I know this is going to be an exspensive repair just for parts alone but have the ablility if my brothers willing to pay for the parts and special tools for working on the timing chains. Hope this helps anybody else with similar problems.

shorod
03-03-2010, 02:07 PM
Wow, that is very interesting news. I wonder if that is similar to the cam sproket issues that the V8 SHO has been known to experience. Usually those would manifest themselves by bending several valves. For a long time Ford refused to admit there was a problem, there were class action suits, and I'm not sure what finally came of all the drama. One preventive option on the SHO was to have the cam sprokets welded before they spun. That might be something you want to consider if your brother decides to fix the car.

-Rod

bradw18
03-05-2010, 12:10 AM
man im glad you figured it out...

how much is it going to cost ya?


as for mine... i gave up :banghead:

but i did get this :biggrin:

egddiesel
03-05-2010, 12:16 AM
Its going to run around $2500 for parts and the tools, maybe a little less or more. Man I would pull your valve cover on bank 1 and just check that both flats on the intake and exhaust cams are lined up with each-put a straight edge across them, check the secondary tensioner to see if its stuck down. Its pretty easy to pull the valve cover on bank 1, easier then 2.

bradw18
03-05-2010, 01:41 PM
the ls is done gone :runaround:

but the s10 has a v8... bad thing is i think the ls could of beat this s10 :naughty:

danielsatur
03-05-2010, 03:29 PM
If the dude finds a fix for the LS, please let us know!

bradw18
03-05-2010, 08:53 PM
i will do... im looking to buy another one just as soon as i sale this s10... i loved the car. as i was loading it on the trailer i put a good size scratch down the side of it hahahaha

i was lookin on ebay and 3500 can almost buy another ls... i wanna try to find one 5 speed manual though.. do they make one?

did your brother decide to fix it? what can you get another motor for?

blklink
03-07-2010, 12:06 AM
They make 5 speeds. Its the 2000-2003 LSE its a v6. I have 2 Lincoln LS's and one of them happens to be the LSE 5 speed. Very good cars just high maint. thats for sure. I got my automatic 2000 lincoln ls fixed week or 2 ago and shes running perfect again. With 217000 miles on it. Yes I know thats high but thats what you call a good dependable Lincoln LS. And the crazy thing is this is the first time I ever had any problems out of it. So far so good.. Another thing is she still has the factory motor in it. :) hahaha Hopefully it will last forever. Everything on its new now.

shorod
03-07-2010, 09:36 AM
I don't think it needed to be an LSE to have the 5-speed manual, and being an LSE did not mean it would be a manual since the LSE was also available with a V8. You could get a manual transmission in 2000 with the V6, but wasn't the LSE introduced in 2002 and available through 2005 while the manual transmission was only available through 2002?

-Rod

bradw18
03-07-2010, 01:21 PM
i just remembered when i was looking at the title on that car it said it was a v6.... i dont know if somebody switched vins or what on that car. theres no dout about it the ls's are very nice cars hell thers about a thousand just in my town alone there everywhere...

danielsatur
03-08-2010, 02:37 PM
Maybe they forgot to switch the ECU's from V6 to V8 & not tell anyone!

34Ford
01-24-2011, 05:29 PM
Well Im getting p0307, 0171, and 0153 heavy misfiring, and some rattling noise.

Is the compression test the best way to check if a chain has jumped?

Whats the best tester for these hemi heads?

danielsatur
01-24-2011, 06:45 PM
Are you the new owner of this car?
If not, how many miles are on this car?

A rattling noise could indicate a bad secondary cam chain tensioner, noisy cam followers, or amplified broken parts of a catalytic converter.

A compression test is the best way to tell, if the cam to cam timing is off.

I would focus on Bank2 (cylinders 4-7) on drivers side 1st.

P0307 - Misfire on cylinder 7
P0171 - Lean code
P0153 - Oxygen sensor on bank 2

1) When you pull the COP's on bank2, lable them 4,5,6, and 7.
2) Do a visual inspection for water, or oil contamination.
The only evidence of water contamination is rust on the spark plug, or rubber COP boot.
3) Do a visual inspection on Spark plugs 4-7, and look close @ 7.
4) Do a compression test on all cylinders 4-7.
5) If compression is good on all four cylinders, clean the COP's, and connectors with CRC electric cleaner.
6) Roll COP # 7 with COP # 4.

Note - All 3-DTC's could be a bad COP #7.

shorod
01-24-2011, 07:23 PM
I don't think I'd jump to the coil yet. P0153 doesn't necessarily suggest that the O2 sensor is the problem. The possible causes for this code are as follows: contaminated HO2S, exhaust leaks, shorted/open wiring, improper fueling, MAF sensor, deteriorating HO2S sensor, or inlet air leaks. As you can see, many of these issues could be due to a lean condition on bank 2. Likewise, the P0171 code indicates bank 1 is running too lean. A bad coil will cause unburned fuel to get in the exhaust. This would not yield a lean code, but rather a rich code. A misfire can be due to an improper quantity of fuel as well.

It's worth swapping the coil from cylinder #7 to another cylinder to see if the misfire code follows the coil. I'd take it a step further and swap the spark plug from cylinder #7 with yet another cylinder. On the V8 it's not too bad to swap coils and plugs in case the misfire follows the spark plug. If it remains on cylinder #7 then I'd suspect the fuel injector.

I'd also suggest cleaning the MAF sensor and carefully inspecting the vacuum lines. Is there a chance the rattling you're hearing is due to an exhaust leak? Does it seem more pronounced on one side of the engine bay than the other?

-Rod

34Ford
01-25-2011, 02:40 PM
I will have to ask the wife how may miles are on it this evening but she has had it for several years.
Might can tell by how far back I have been posting on here.:rofl:

I swapped the coils earlier on #7 and no change.
It however fixed the p0103 I had by changing it.

I did put in new spark plugs on bank 2 and it got worse.
I dont think its a exhaust leak, I think the sound I here is due to it loping so hard at idle.
Been so cold here lately I haven't had a chance to go over it with my ear up close.

But I thought I would buy a compression tester. Do I need one with a hose on it? I figure that is what it would take to reach that far unless they make one with a loooong rubber tip.

danielsatur
01-25-2011, 02:48 PM
You can borrow a compression testor from any Auto Parts store for a small deposit.

1) Try to isolate noise to bank 1 (cylinders 1-4), or bank 2 (cylinders 5-8).
2) A Local muffler shop can do a back pressure test on your catalytic converters.

Physical cylinder assignment-
Tran
4 8
3 7
2 6
1 5
FAN

The Lincoln LS & Jaguar S type are like bad sisters!

see http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=954555

shorod
01-25-2011, 10:39 PM
Any chance your wife just put bad fuel in it, like 87 octane or something?

-Rod

34Ford
01-26-2011, 12:27 PM
Any chance your wife just put bad fuel in it, like 87 octane or something?

-Rod

Rod,

I wished.:smile:

This has been a problem longer than that. Found a tester on amazon I may buy.
Only reason I want to check compression is so I dont spend money on injectors and cant return them if their not the problem.
Will try to do a ear test this weekend.

God I hate winter.:mad:

danielsatur
01-26-2011, 01:43 PM
It can't hurt to put some octane boost in the tank!

If you have Injector problems, you can do a ''Out of car Injector service''
any local diesel shop can micro bath, blow out, test flow rate, and put new injector seals on for $20-$25 per injector.

Just because you got a signal, clicking sound, or resistance doesn't tell me that the flow rate is good.

You could try rolling the injector, if bad, just do the cleaning on the one injector.

I have taken known bad injectors for a good cleaning, and they were good.

34Ford
01-31-2011, 02:13 PM
Saturday just for the hell of it I took the first 3 injector connectors off on the drivers side and it didn't make any difference in the missing.:rofl:

Put in a new fuel filter while I had the time.

But is there a way to have my injectors cleaned if I remove them? Is that a dealer job, or a local mechanic?

EDIT: Well Ill be, there is a ton of videos on cleaning them yourself. Looks simple enough.

danielsatur
01-31-2011, 02:38 PM
Any local diesel shop can clean bad injectors.

34Ford
01-31-2011, 06:30 PM
Wonder if these are worth the money? OTC -7448 Fuel Injector Cleaner.

Theres videos of it in action on youtube.

http://www.amazon.com/OTC-7448-Fuel-Injection-Cleaner/dp/B0002SR60W

34Ford
02-01-2011, 08:12 PM
You gotta listen to this this thing rattle. Now remember this is happening while its missing like the dickens.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rBxY0iJ_Tu0

shorod
02-01-2011, 09:58 PM
Yeah, something's definitely not right. I guess you should first confirm the rattle is not in one of the belt pulleys, but since you also have a misfire, chances are good the rattle is related. Hopefully it's not due to a lack of compression.

-Rod

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