2000 venture suspension noises/woes

Greetings,

I have several questions all relating to both front and rear suspension issues (noises).

2000 Venture short wheelbase. 120k miles. All stock /original as far as suspension goes.



My symptoms:

Did not all start at the same time. Happened over time. I drive like an old man, so I don't notice any handling issues to speak of.

1. Front right, when going over certain kinds of (series) of bumps, I get one metal to metal "clank". it is not bottoming out. I can't tell if it is from the wheel/strut assy, stabilizer or perhaps control arm. I can also hear it sometime when I am making a sharp slow turn into a parking lot from the road, where there is a difference in height (driveway entrance). There is no lateral, axial or radial play in the ball joints, wheel bearings, or tie-rod ends.

2. Both rear wheels/axle/??? When going over certain types of bumps/road surface it makes a clunk (sound like a bottoming out but it's not, the travel of the shock is not that far). Sounds kind of like the exhaust may be hitting something (it's not). Shocks? "pivot" bushings? Not sure what they're called, but they are like "swing arm" bushings on a motorcycle.



What I know/have done so far.

Front:

A. Took a few pix of the stabilizer bar ends. Hopefully I'll be able to attach them to this post. Right side looks broken, left appears intact. That said, I have seen a post or two here where people have mentioned that the bar end(s) are supposed to be in two pieces. What's the deal?

I have looked at the stabilizer bushings, how can I tell if they're worn? There is far less "rubber" showing on the bottom (against the frame) than the top (under the U clamp). I presume because the load is downward.

Assuming it IS broken, should I replace the bar, the links and the bushings at the same time? Is it a big job? Seems pretty straightforward, but I wonder if there are any "clearance" issues in simply removing and replacing the bar? Is it under any type of load when removing/replacing it?

The springs are intact.

B. Jacked up the front end, used a 40" iron bar to "pry up" between tire and ground to see if there is any play in the strut/strut-bearing/front wheels. I found none, but I am not sure this is the correct way to test for strut/strut-bearing/spring etc.



Rear:

Jacked up the rear (shocks fully extended), used the pry bar similar to front. No noticeable looseness in shock mounts. What I did find is that when I released the compression of the shocks from prying, they extended quickly (no dampening) AND with a metal to metal sound at the end of extension.

I tried to manually (with hands) check for lateral play in the "swing arm" bushings, and they seemed tight. Agaim this may not be the best way to check for play.

Springs are intact.


So. Here is my summary.

I. Is my stabilizer bar broken? If so, what's involved in replacing it?

II. How do I check strut/strut-bearings to see if they need to be replaced.

III. How do I check rear shocks and swing arm bushings. Shocks seem pretty straightforward to replace. What about the swing arm bushings (if they need it).

Thanks for any suggestions and or help you can provide.

Your sway bar is definately broken which is common on these vans and a lot of other GM cars. They're not that hard to replace get his kit made my Dorman from any auto parts store everything you need comes with it. It's a bigger bar then the original and it is solid so it will never break again.

https://www.dormanproducts.com/cgi-bin/vm91corp30r/item-dtl.w?sid=bjyjlPidkbCUlicl013106376424933148&item=927-100&icrid=0x00a1a44a&clt=hwrap1&vsrch_str=&vsrch_brand=&vsrch_cat=&st_amount=&end_amount=&start=&vfrom=&prev=&vnext=&category_list=:0

Nice work on the diagnosis, OP! And as intimidator says, you need a new sway bar. The kit he references is about $100 from RockAuto.com...not too bad.

I recommed fixing what you know is wrong and re-evaluating. I bet with that new sway bar installed a lot of those noises will disappear....!

Mine was broke on the drivers side (the lower portion of the end with the hole), replaced the sway bar links and welded the Tab back on, has been working good ever since. - no $100 spent.

Just to set the record straight, you might have seen a couple of my old posts where I thought the bar was made in two pieces. I was quite certain of that because I work on these vans all the time for folks around my area and everyone I've ever seen is in two sections.

Well, they are all broken--and they all make the noise you describe until that bar gets replaced. The bars seperate out so perfectly that it looks like it was made as two pieces, but they are supposed to be solid.

I agree with the posts above; get the kit from Rock Auto and then re access the problems.
Just didn't want to cause anyone confusion from prior posts where I may have made it sound like the stabilizer bar was designed as two sections--its not.

Merc81, Tnx for the clarification. I sort of figured as much when I received the replies.

BTW, thanks to all that replied...

I have ordered the sway bar kit, and a pair of rear shocks. I figure at 120k miles, the rears are probably due. I'm saving the fronts for better weather. It's 25 deg F up here now, and I have 12 inches of new snow. Lousy weather for car repair..

Any advice on the repairs?

The rear shocks look pretty straightforward. Spray with penetrating oil for a few days prior to the repair, remove the lower bolts first then the uppers. Anything I missed?

For the sway bar, being broken, there is no load to speak of on the right side. But what about the left? I am guessing that both front wheels have to be off the ground (unloaded) in order to replace the bar? I saw in another post, that the curve in the bar goes UP. Are there any other parts that have to be removed to maneuver the bar into place or does it easily go in from the side/bottom? Does it matter where I start fastening the bar? IE is it better to start at the center (bushings) and then go out to the links?

Any advice on either of these repairs much appreciated.

Thanks

Just one question on the rears: do you have air suspension or regular? If regular, then you've got it down. Air shocks add the fitting - I hope you got the right shocks!

For removal of the sway bar, pull the wheels. With one end broke, you have no load on either side. Just start pulling bolts; but might be easier to remove the end link on the side that's still attached, then the frame mounts....pay attention to bar orientation (as mentioned) and how the end link bushings are stacked/oriented. Put back together the same way.

For installation, I don't think it matters what you tackle first: the end links or the bar mounts. Either way you start I'd leave everything a little loose until all the mount points are started, in case you need to move something around.

And you might need to jack up a control arm once the other side is secured to get it to line up for the end link bolt ....

Finally, search for my post on the front struts...they're a bear and I like your plan of leaving it for warmer weather....

Kornjulio,

Tnx for the reply and the repair tips. Yes I forgot to mention that I have non-air shocks. I am replacing them with Monroe Sensa-trac #37156. The sway bar is the Dorman kit 927-100.

I have done front strut (cartridges) before (on a Dodge Caravan). Not done a Venture before. I usually take the assemble out as a whole (bearing too). Once out I have a local gas station use their wall mounted spring compressor to compress the spring and replace the strut. He only charges me $5 each.

I did see a post earlier (I think it was yours). Looks like the wiper tray and linkage have to come out and even then it's a bear..... Definitely a "warm weather" fix, or perhaps even a "trip to my local mechanic" job. Thanks again for all the help.

For the front stuts; I had the luxury of doing that while the engine was removed (I stood in the engine space and leaned over to the struts :thumbsup: ) but even then it was tough. I was glad I owned those ratcheting box wrenches -- you cant fit a socket in there. Had to pull the cruise control module out of my way and of course the wiper arms had move.

Status report:

Sway bar came today, I saw it on the porch when I got home. It was calling my name. I pulled the Venture in the garage about 3:30. Heated it up to 80 deg f with the propane heater. And commenced the installation:

Jack up vehicle from front to unload sway bar tension, install jack stands.

Remove front wheels.

I started by spraying penetrating oil on all 8 bolts/nuts, and tapping them with a small hammer.

1/2" bolts (possibly 13mm) on the links (top and bottom). 15 mm on the bushing mounts. What's the trick to getting the links out? I had to use a sawzall to cut the old links off. It appears that the plastic bushing had "fused" itself solidly (and I mean solidly) to the link bolt. Once I cut the plastic spacer off, the bolt came right out. I tried prying with a ball joint/tie rod end separator. Hammering it. No dice.

I started with the links, then in order to get clear access to the bushing clamp bolts, I had to turn the steering to each lock a few times to give me room to get a wrench on the bolts. Would've been a little quicker with a helper. I had to pry off the old bushings and clamps to facilitate threading the old bar out.

The new bar (Dorman 927-100 from Advanced Auto ($80.00) 2 day shipping) looked slightly different form the new one but the ends were properly located and angled. It was clearly marked "THIS SIDE DOWN ON DRIVERS SIDE" to avoid a reverse install. threaded the new bar in from the passenger side, put the bushings on (not clamps), I coated the inner surface of the bushing with a very thin film of Silicone. Then I loosely fastened the links on the ends. Next I put the bushing clamps on over the bushings (also with a thin film of silicone) and positioned them and installed the new bolts a few turns. I then tightened the links completely until the nut bottomed out.

Next I tightened the bushing clamp bolts the rest of the way. Installed and torqued the wheels and went for a test ride. Nice...

3 hours later.... Task Completed..

When the rear shocks get here, I'll heat the garage up again and do them. I hope it's an easier job.

Got pix if anyone wants them....
Thanks for all the help and support.

Yeah, throw those pix up, could help someone out someday!!!

Update #2:

Rear shocks came in yesterday from Amazon. Monroe Sensa-trac #37156. $74. I installed them today. Took about 45 minutes for both. A VERY easy job. I have been spraying the bolts with penetrating oil for the last 4 days. They came right off. I was able to hand compress the shocks to get them into place.

So how did this affect my noises you may ask? Well, the van rides quite a bit better with a new sway bar, bushings and links, and two new rear shocks. It sits a little higher too. That said, the clunks and noises are now much worse. I am thinking struts and strut bearings (the van is due, it's got 125k miles on the clock). I will probably do these as a matter of course.

BUT !!!!! I need someone to tell me if my front lower control arm bushings are gone. See my uploaded pix. While I was under my van today I noticed the front control arm bushings. It seems weird that the left one has the bushing on the bottom, and the right one has the bushing on the top. Is there supposed to be rubber on BOTH top and bottom? Or can someone send me some pix of a GOOD front control arm bushings so I can compare them?

I have the factory manual, and I can't believe how crappy it is. The picture doesn't even detail the bushing. Someone posted the manual pages here in another post.

I will await a confirmation as to whether they're bad or not before I ask about repairing these. I have seen other posts suggesting replacing the hole arm etc. I've got to do the struts and bearings anyway....

Thanks for all the help...

Yeah, looks like yours has slipped on the bushings, mine has clearance between the arm and the frame (looks like the arm has the bushing parts on both sides altho it dont look the same either side, but it has space between the arm and the metal on the frame mount.)

AaaaaaaaaaND, We're off again. OK. I've got two Dorman control arms (includes ball joints, and front and rear bushings), two Monroe Struts (71661), and two Monroe mount kits. 902973 all on order, should be here in a few days.

The control arms are pretty straightforward. I'm not worried about those.

I am concerned about getting the struts out. The 3 nuts look like a real pain to get at. I was hoping for some tricks. (Other than removing the wipers and linkage). How long and how difficult is it to get the wipers and linkage off?

Anyone got any "new" tricks for this ?

Tnx.

OK.. Struts and mounts came in a few days ago, control arms are due today.

When I do the control arms, I was planning on doing it this way:

1. Jack the van up on stands with both front wheels off ground.

2. Remove wheels

3. Disconnect stabilizer bar links from control arms.

4. Loosen ball joint pinch bolt and separate from steering knuckle

5. Remove vertical and horizontal control arm bolts and remove control arm.

6. Reverse procedure to install new control arm (already has bushings, and ball joint installed in it)


So here is my question (between steps 3 and 4): Do I have to loosen the half-shaft spindle nut? I am concerned that if I don't, there may be downward/outward pressure on the upper part of the steering knuckle from the strut/spring and that when I remove the ball joint pinch bolt and drop the taper out of the steering knuckle, it may try and pull the half shaft out of the transmission.

Thoughts?

Tnx

I have access to the factory service manual. There's no mention of doing anything to the halfshaft or its nut in the lwr control arm R&R section.

PS - Don't forget to disconnect the ABS wiring before yanking the control arm out!

Kornjulio,

Tnx for the reply. Yes I have the same set of manuals. I have found them very poorly written, and many times inaccurate. I have also found that they will give the "by the book" method, which in many cases is much more convoluted and complicated than the "shortcut" methods we as DIY mechanics come up with and share in great forums like this.

I forgot where I read the part about the spindle nut. I didn't think it was true as I have done a few CV joints/half-shafts in my time and only had an issue once. It was with a Plymouth Voyager. And that is exactly what happened.

As soon as I pried the ball joint taper out of the steering knuckle, WHAM !! The strut came down (and out) about 2 inches, and pulled the half shaft out of the transaxle, then trans fluid was leaking all over the place. Not a huge deal, but was certainly unexpected. And a I had to use a "suicide spring compressor" (much to my chagrin and dismay) to get it back in place.

In any case, I am going to attempt the control arms this afternoon.

One thing I did find a bit disturbing, is that I was under the impression that DORMAN was an American company selling American made goods. I looked at the new control arms. Made in China !!!!! I hope they hold up as well as the OEM ones did. Especially the ball joint. My ball joints are fine now (no play at all). I hope the replacement ones last as long (125k miles).

P.../NH

I know what you mean regarding service manual quality. It tells you everything about nothing.

Ever replace the HVAC blower motor resistor on one of these things? You'd think the service guys would include the small detail that the screws securing it are the very common 5.5mm? Nope. I spent an hour on my back trying various sizes of sockets and dropping some f-bombs until I figured out what was going on.

5.5 mm ??? WTF. I've never heard of it before... Oh well.

I put the control arms in this afternoon. Took about 3 hrs. Couldn't figure out the best way to "tilt" the vertical end of the arm in, so I loosely fit the rear bushing and the ball joint taper in place, then used a bottle jack to push up the control arm, so the vertical bushing was at less of an angle. Then a few taps with a hammer and I was able to get the bolt in. Rides like a different vehicle. No noises (that I could hear on the test drive). Any idea where I can get those little plastic holders that go into the control arm to hold the ABS sensor wire secure? I went to the local VIP and Autozone. They didn't have them. For now I used zip ties (UV resistant ones). I'll look around tomorrow.

Struts and mounts most likely tomorrow or over the weekend.

P.../NH

OK. I did the struts and strut mounts 3 days ago. Yes the passenger strut mount nuts are a real pain to get to. I had to remove the wiper linkage and the cruise control, and the washer bottle. Look here for details on the removal process.

http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=977114

Once that was out here is what I did.

1. Jacked up front end of van with jack stands. Both front wheels off the ground.

2. Remove tires.

3. Remove 2 large 21mm ? nuts that hold the lower part of the strut to the steering knuckle. You will most likely have to bang the 2 bolts out with a hammer as they "friction fit" and splined. Put the nut back on so it is flush with the end of the bolt and hammer/punch it out.

4. Remove 3 strut mount nuts and remove the strut assembly.

I took mine to a local garage and had them put the mounts and struts into the spring. Minimal fee ($20).

Reverse the process to reinstall. It helps to have a helper hold the strut up in place as you thread the new nuts on. I did it by myself. No fun.

Hope this helps someone.

P..../NH

Nice work! You're going to have a brand-new van pretty soon!

OK.. So now that all the repairs have been completed. Tell me where I went wrong. See if you can follow my symptom/action list.

1. Original status lots of noises and rough ride when going over bumps.

2. Replace broken stabilizer, links, and bushings. Car has less roll, but seems like there are more noises.

3. Replace rear shocks. Car rides a little higher and stiffer in the rear. No increase or decrease in noises.

4. Replace control arms, bushings, and ball joints. Car rides like a dream. No noises. Very tight ride. I love it.

5. Replace struts and strut mounts. Minor (light) noises re-appear in front (I think mostly left, maybe right too) when going over a bump.Car rides very tight. Too tight. When I go over a bump in the front it feels more like a sports car ride (stiffer) than a softer (VAN) type ride, like I had before I did the struts & mounts. I had the local garage build the struts & mounts. They fit and look fine. I am sure I installed them correctly and really tightened them down securely. Though I have to admit it does feel like, sounds like the mount bearings are bad. (I replaced them as part of the mount kits.

Thoughts?

Thanks...

That's odd...when I replaced my struts nothing like what you've experienced has occurred on my van.

All I can offer is to go back & recheck all the fasteners - maybe you missed torquing one?

I think I have the answer. It appears that the folks that assembled the struts and mounts for me didn't tighten them down all the way. Remember, I brought them down to the shop "off the car". My guess is that I should have checked the tightness of the strut piston nuts AFTER LOWERING THE CAR so that the full weight of the front end was on the struts. (Note to self....)

If I look at the drivers side strut tower from inside the hood. And then I bounce the car up and down, I see about 3/8 to 1/2 an inch of up/down travel of the nut at the top/end of the strut piston rod. The passenger side is a little harder to see and push at the same time. So I am not that sure about that one.

You know what that means... Taking the wipers and all the associated stuff out again, just to tighten up a couple of nuts.

I trust that there should be NO PLAY in the strut piston rods at the mounts ? Does yours have any play?

Tnx...

Just checked mine for you. I want to say I didn't notice much play when I jounced the driver's side. I do remember tightening that nut as much as I could after the vehicle was on the ground.

It's kinda hard to get much torque on it because you have to hold the the strut rod with an allen wrench while turning the nut with a socket; otherwise the rod will just spin. My impact sockets have a hole in the side. I put just the socket on the nut with no ratchet, jammed a punch into the hole, then put the allen wrench in through the opening in the back of the socket to hold the rod. With this setup I put as much torque on the nut as I could generate & called it good.

I have about four threads showing past the top of the nut...

Update:

Job completed. I had to take the wipers et al out again to tighten both strut shaft nuts again. The passenger one I could just about get all the way down without taking the wipers out, but for the last 2 threads I still had to remove them. The drivers side was a completely different story. I am not sure exactly what happened, but I could not move the nut one mm. It was as if it was crossed or stripped. I took the whole strut out and took it back to where they swapped the springs for me. They had a great deal of difficulty removing the nut. Finally after a little heat from a torch and an air impact gun, it came off. They had to chase the threads on bot the shat and the nut before it would go back together. Took it back home, installed it. Put the wipers back in. Messed up the timing (ruined a good wiper). Any way. All is well now. No bumps/clanks/noises. It rides very stiff over bumps though. More like a sports car. I hope it will soften out after a bit.

Also, a friend gave me a great tip for reinstalling the wipers.

1. Turn the ignition to run.
2. Turn on the wipers to the slowest intermittent delay.
3. When they stop, turn the ignition to off.
4. Use a 4 inch piece of electrical tape for each wiper and mark their position on the windshield. Be sure to use Electrical tape and not any other kind. Many tapes will react with the coating on the windshield and cause permanent scarring.

BTW, My Monroe's had a 21 mm nut and a 6mm Allen for the shaft.

P.../NH

I think your ride quality (you describe as sport or somewhat harsh) is due to the new struts.

Since I replaced the stuts with KYB's on my old Toyota a fews years ago the ride has been harsh. I think the struts are stiffer than the stock units since they often spec the same strut for a number of applications.

What brand strut did you get - Monroe, Gabriell, KYB, etc. ?

Monroe. 71661 and mount kits.