'02 Windstar - P0305 - Deposits on plugs


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DrivenByDemons
11-04-2009, 10:41 AM
***Update: P0305 resolved. I decided to do my valve guide seals to try and cut down on oil comsumption and possibly misfire. Figured I'd take the intake off to get to those back valves easier. Since I was that far down I was gonna swap 4&5 injectors but when I got them out I knew that was the problem. They were all dirty but 5 had a coating of brown looking varnish all over it. Cleaned all six of them with some B12 chemtool and it runs like a champ. Just wanted to post what worked for me in case anyone else is having the same trouble. I'll post the results of the new valve seals when I get some more miles on the van***


Hey all,

Wife's van threw a P0305 the other day. I read some info here and figured it's either ignition or injectors. Dumped in a can of that B-12 everyone recommends and figured I'd change the wires and check the plugs while I'm at it. The #2 and #5 plug both had a lot of deposits just like the picture below.


http://www.xs11.com/forum/images/tips/20020915-plug_ash_deposits.jpg


The other plugs looked perfect. I changed these about 45,000 miles ago, they are OEM plugs (the van has 101,000 on it). The deposits chipped right off and the plugs cleaned up great so I re-gapped them and put 'em back with the new wires. I'm confused why only #2 and #5 looked like this. Could a bad coil pack with a weak spark cause this? #2 and #5 are both in the middle so they would share a coil, right? I was gonna see if the new wires make a difference but I can tell it still feels a little rough so something else is still wrong...

serge_saati
11-05-2009, 12:34 AM
No it can't be caused by a bad coil.

serge_saati
11-05-2009, 06:23 PM
2 and 5 aren't on the same coil.
2 is with 6
5 is with 1
4 is with 3

Are you loosing oil in your engine?

DrivenByDemons
11-05-2009, 08:48 PM
Yes, the engine burns about 1 quart every 3000 miles. There are no oil drops on the driveway anywhere so I know it's burning it. Never see any smoke from the exhaust or anything so I have no clue where it's coming from.

wiswind
11-05-2009, 09:10 PM
You would have to be burning A LOT of oil to see it in the exhaust.
Perhaps it is getting more oil into #2 and #5 cylinders?
They had the valve cover baffel for the PCV valve corrected from the factory by 2002.
I have not seen any information that says the windstar is prone to valve guide seal issues.....not that it cannot happen.
Same with piston rings....also reliable.
101K miles is nothing on the motor.....

serge_saati
11-05-2009, 09:41 PM
Yes, 100Kmi is not a lot.

The oil that burns may come from the valve guide or from the lower intake manifold. You may have to change the isolator bolts.

If oil come in the cylinder, it contaminates the plugs.

DrivenByDemons
11-05-2009, 10:01 PM
I did the isolator bolt fix @ about 50,000 mi. The valve cover is the one that has the baffle so that's fine... I went ahead and put in a new coil pack since so many people complain about them. It actually helped a lot. I was getting a very slight knock when accelerating really lightly, even with the cleaned plugs and new plug wires - that is gone with the new pack. I knew the deposits could be from fuel/oil additives but figured I'd see it on all the plugs, not just 2 and 5.

Any other ideas on the oil consumption? I've read that 1 quart every 3000 isn't too much of a big deal.

serge_saati
11-05-2009, 10:30 PM
No, it's not too much. 3000 miles is the double mileage that I do in 1 year!

If you have drove a lot since your last oil change, I suggest you to change your oil.
New oil is thicker and have less facility to leak in the engine.

If it doesn't work enough, you can add some oil additive that thick the oil a little bit.

fy171
11-06-2009, 12:46 PM
i did the 171/174 fix in June and plugs and wire ,now was getting code 301 ,the coil pack read good on test but just change it last week and it runs very smooth no 301 code so far and the enginge feels like it has morepower,

2002 SE 76K

DrivenByDemons
11-07-2009, 09:29 PM
No, it's not too much. 3000 miles is the double mileage that I do in 1 year!

If you have drove a lot since your last oil change, I suggest you to change your oil.
New oil is thicker and have less facility to leak in the engine.

If it doesn't work enough, you can add some oil additive that thick the oil a little bit.

What do you mean, use like 5w40 instead of 5w30???

serge_saati
11-08-2009, 12:05 AM
What do you mean, use like 5w40 instead of 5w30???

Not necessary, just add 3 onces of lucas oil additive. It's labelled "fuel saver engine treatment". But it'll not save fuel if you put it on oil, only stop leak.

It has stopped an oil leak on one of my engine. And stopped an oil consumption on a Hyundai Accent. And I was burning more than 1qt/3000miles. 3000miles is 2 years of driving for me.

serge_saati
11-08-2009, 12:07 AM
i did the 171/174 fix in June and plugs and wire ,now was getting code 301 ,the coil pack read good on test but just change it last week and it runs very smooth no 301 code so far and the enginge feels like it has morepower,

2002 SE 76K

That's what he did. Now the problem is oil burning.

wafrederick
11-08-2009, 10:43 AM
Pull the upper intake,will find out the EGR ports are plugged up with carbon and this will cause the missfire

DrivenByDemons
11-08-2009, 04:39 PM
Pull the upper intake,will find out the EGR ports are plugged up with carbon and this will cause the missfire

No, i cleaned those out when I did the isolator bolt fix. They actually weren't that bad...

DrivenByDemons
01-20-2010, 09:37 PM
Well, I got another P0305 today. Decided to check the plug since it stayed with that cylinder. Here's what I found.

http://i48.tinypic.com/jz78te.jpg

That's oil, right? My oil consumption problem HAS to be the cause of this, right??? From what I've been reading, valve guide seals??? One interesting note - I tried using 5w20 instead of 5w30 my last oil change and it used it up WAY quicker. I guess I'm wondering if anything else could be causing this??? Could a bad plug which isn't burning good cause these deposits? I cleaned it up and swapped it with #4 to see what happens but I'm thinking I know where all that oil is going.

danielsatur
01-20-2010, 10:10 PM
Add a PCV catch can, or a oil seperator with an external PCV filter.
You will burn less oil, because the PCV system will be out of the loop.

DrivenByDemons
01-20-2010, 10:15 PM
Add a PCV catch can, or a oil seperator with an external PCV filter.
You will burn less oil, because the PCV system will be out of the loop.

Oh yea, forgot to mention, was using an aftermarket PCV valve but changed that out to a 100% genuine Ford PCV.

danielsatur
01-20-2010, 10:19 PM
I wouldn't have a problem isolating the EGR + PCV system out of the loop!

wiswind
01-21-2010, 01:29 AM
Have the EGR ports in the lower intake manifold been cleaned?
I would expect them to have more of an impact on cylinders 3 and 4, but who knows?

Whatever you do with the PCV....you do not want to reduce the flow out of the crankcase through the PCV valve.
That would cause chemicals to build up in the crankcase, breaking down the oil, creating sludge, etc.

Now, if for some reason there is a issue with a intermittent lack of spark to cylinder #5, that could cause deposits on the spark plug.
If not the coil, which you have already replaced, which seems to be mentioned as failing on windstars around your year, maybe a spark plug wire.
So, if not already done......new plug wires and ......along with new spark plugs might be in order.

1 quart in 3000 miles is not much consumption, not near enough to be concerned about, or to make any changes based upon consumption.
I am doing that now on my '96, actually maybe a bit more, which has over 220,000 miles, .....but I am using 5W-20 oil.
I would not go to a thicker oil than 5W-30.

As far as any pinging......give the IMRC a looking at.
Around your year is known to loose clips that attach the IMRC shafts that go into the lower intake manifold......to the electrical actuator.....
What this can cause is for the actual IMRC to be open when it should not be, or to have 1 side open and the other bank of cylinders closed....which would cause a imballance situation.
It is worse to have them stuck open than to have them stuck closed.
Open is bad for low RPM operation.....as in lower than 2000 rpm......and lower fuel economy.....pinging and maybe lean codes.
If they are stuck closed.....you loose that extra power boost when passing......high RPM accelleration, but it should not cause any other drivability problems.

DrivenByDemons
01-21-2010, 10:23 AM
I cleaned the EGR ports when I did the isolator bolt fix a few years ago. They were very clean compared to some of the pictures I've seen of others around here. Maybe a pea sized piece of junk in #1 and #4. I also replaced those broken IMRC clips. I also already did coil pack and wires a few months ago.

I think I'm just gonna grab some new plugs and see what happens. It's the damn oil consumption that bothers me. I'll keep this topic alive with any new developments in case someone else is having the same trouble.

wiswind
01-21-2010, 03:15 PM
Get Motorcraft or Autolite "Double Platinum' plugs.
Stay away from multi-pronged fancy plugs.

If, by some chance, the wrong plug was installed, then it could be a cause of deposits.

DrivenByDemons
01-21-2010, 03:34 PM
Get Motorcraft or Autolite "Double Platinum' plugs.
Stay away from multi-pronged fancy plugs.

If, by some chance, the wrong plug was installed, then it could be a cause of deposits.

I stick with Motorcraft for plugs...

DrivenByDemons
01-22-2010, 12:39 PM
Well, new coil pack, new wires, new plug, Damn P0305 came back this morning. Any thoughts??? I'm thinking Fuel Injector maybe??? That sound right to anyone else? The only thing I don't like is all those damn deposits on that plug and my oil consumption.

serge_saati
01-22-2010, 01:26 PM
Well, new coil pack, new wires, new plug, Damn P0305 came back this morning. Any thoughts??? I'm thinking Fuel Injector maybe???
I don't think so. Oil can cause misfire. Cause the oil reduces electrical conductivity, even if you have new iridium plug. Maybe bad rings? Have you tested the compression?

DrivenByDemons
01-22-2010, 01:40 PM
No compression test yet, it's on my list. Can I just check that one cylinder for compression without removing all the spark plugs? I was thinking I could pull the fuse to the fuel pump and just check #5 for now by cranking the engine.

wiswind
01-22-2010, 05:22 PM
If you are thinking fuel injector, try swaping it with one from another cylinder....and see if the problem moves.

serge_saati
01-22-2010, 05:46 PM
No compression test yet, it's on my list. Can I just check that one cylinder for compression without removing all the spark plugs? I was thinking I could pull the fuse to the fuel pump and just check #5 for now by cranking the engine.
Yes you can. It will be quicker and efficient.

DrivenByDemons
01-22-2010, 09:08 PM
I'll probably try compression test tomorrow. I pulled the #5 plug and it already has oil on it. A compression test won't tell me squat about valve guide seals, right? If I have good compression but still a lot of oil in that one cylinder only, it almost has to be the guide seal, right?

DrivenByDemons
01-22-2010, 09:09 PM
If you are thinking fuel injector, try swaping it with one from another cylinder....and see if the problem moves.

If it comes to that, that's my plan.

serge_saati
01-22-2010, 10:43 PM
I'll probably try compression test tomorrow. I pulled the #5 plug and it already has oil on it. A compression test won't tell me squat about valve guide seals, right? If I have good compression but still a lot of oil in that one cylinder only, it almost has to be the guide seal, right?

Yes, a compression test will tell you about a bad valve guide seal.
So the test is useless, I didn't thought about that before.

I think the engine need to be examinated by inside.

DrivenByDemons
01-30-2010, 10:46 PM
Update: I changed the valve guide seals on 4, 5, and 6 tonight. Never did this before and wanted to keep it as easy as possible so I stuck with the front of the engine for now. It was actually a pretty simple job. I got nervous when I got to #5 cause I hooked up the air hose and the compressor couldn't keep up, like there was a big air leak. I thought I was screwed but realized the rockers were still on and the exhaust valve was open just a little bit. Took off the rockers and she held pressure just like the others. Anyway, the new seals fit a lot tighter and the old ones seemed less pliable then the replacements. I'm hoping this works out and will keep this thread updated. I'm gonna watch the oil consumption and check the plugs for deposits every now and then. Hopefully no more P0305 either. If all goes well I'll try 1, 2, and 3 next.

DrivenByDemons
02-01-2010, 09:33 PM
Well...... I couldn't help myself and bought a OBD-II cable for 4 bucks on ebay and hooked her up tonight, P0305 is pending and P0316 is stored... Got pissed off and started ripping the intake apart to get to those injectors and EGR ports. The EGR's are spotless but the #1 and #5 injector had a light brown, varnish looking film over the ends of them. They are currently soaking in a cup of Berrymans and look much better already. I'm gonna let 'em sock overnight and put her back together in the morning. I did notice the IMRC butterfly and intake of #1 were VERY black but the others looked pretty good. I got a spray can of Berryman's and cleaned the hell out of the IMRC, EGR ports and intakes. That Berrymans is really something else. I tried some Seafoam "Deep Creep" first on the injectors and intake and it barely did squat. Ran to autozone and tried the B-12 because of the many positive posts about it here. It tore that gunk up like nothing. I went through half a can cleaning all those intake ports and was thinking of pulling all the plugs and shooting it into the cylinders while I reassemble tomorrow. Anyone ever try that? I'm thinking that stuff would de-carbon like a dream!

serge_saati
02-01-2010, 10:43 PM
What is P0316? I never heard about it.

DrivenByDemons
02-01-2010, 11:04 PM
P0316 is a misfire at startup (within first 1000 revolutions). Seems to be ford specific...

tomj76
02-02-2010, 09:51 AM
This is probably a stupid suggestion, but did you change the plug after replacing the seals? Did you reset the code?

It's possible that the misfire and the plug deposits are not directly related, so you fixed a problem, but not the one causing the misfire code. It's also possible that the oil is not coming from the valve seal, but from a bad oil ring.

Regarding B-12... I've used it to clean combustion chambers, but only with the head off. I turned the head over, poured it in the chambers, covered them, and let it soak. It helped, but it still took a fair amount of elbow grease to get the carbon off.

I wouldn't pour it into a cylinder, since it would end up in the oil pan.

DrivenByDemons
02-02-2010, 10:51 AM
This is probably a stupid suggestion, but did you change the plug after replacing the seals? Did you reset the code?

It's possible that the misfire and the plug deposits are not directly related, so you fixed a problem, but not the one causing the misfire code. It's also possible that the oil is not coming from the valve seal, but from a bad oil ring.

Regarding B-12... I've used it to clean combustion chambers, but only with the head off. I turned the head over, poured it in the chambers, covered them, and let it soak. It helped, but it still took a fair amount of elbow grease to get the carbon off.

I wouldn't pour it into a cylinder, since it would end up in the oil pan.

Yea, I cleaned and swapped plugs but it stayed with 5. I did reset the code.

If I changed the oil after soaking the cylinder you think that would be ok?

I'm hoping to be done with all this tonight so I'll check in later.

serge_saati
02-02-2010, 02:25 PM
If I changed the oil after soaking the cylinder you think that would be ok?

It should not cause problem, but I don't think this would help a lot. Changing oil can cure small oil consumption but not big consomption.

wiswind
02-02-2010, 06:53 PM
As far as the B-12 in the cylinder.....changing the oil right away would be good.
I would not pour it into the cylinders in much quantitiy.....I don't think it will do a lot to clean large amounts of carbon......and make SURE that you don't try to start the motor (or turn it over) with the spark plugs in place with fluid in the cylinders as that can cause major damage.......fluid does not compress (called hydrolocking).

However squirting some down cylinder #5 might help clean up the rings.......let it soak.
Then remove the fuse for the fuel pump.....leave spark plug for #5 out and crank the motor a very short time......install spark plug #5 and crank it again a short time.....then re-install the fuel pump fuse and start the motor.
This will help remove fluid from inside the cylinder......and make sure that you have oil (not just B-12) up onto the rings for cylinder #5 before trying to start the motor.
Doing just 1 cylinder.....and not filling the cylinder up......you should be fine following the pre-start steps......and should be OK to start the motor...run a short time.....then shut down and change the oil and filter.

DrivenByDemons
02-03-2010, 10:27 AM
As far as the B-12 in the cylinder.....changing the oil right away would be good.
I would not pour it into the cylinders in much quantitiy.....I don't think it will do a lot to clean large amounts of carbon......and make SURE that you don't try to start the motor (or turn it over) with the spark plugs in place with fluid in the cylinders as that can cause major damage.......fluid does not compress (called hydrolocking).

However squirting some down cylinder #5 might help clean up the rings.......let it soak.
Then remove the fuse for the fuel pump.....leave spark plug for #5 out and crank the motor a very short time......install spark plug #5 and crank it again a short time.....then re-install the fuel pump fuse and start the motor.
This will help remove fluid from inside the cylinder......and make sure that you have oil (not just B-12) up onto the rings for cylinder #5 before trying to start the motor.
Doing just 1 cylinder.....and not filling the cylinder up......you should be fine following the pre-start steps......and should be OK to start the motor...run a short time.....then shut down and change the oil and filter.

Well, got her back together and so far she's purring like a kitten. I followed these instructions but didn't read this post till after I was finished :icon16:. I'm very cautious about hydrolocking - I have a '98 F-150 that had the bad lower intake gaskets so I'm familiar with the problem. If I don't have any codes in a few days I'll update the thread with everything I did in case someone else has the same problem.

DrivenByDemons
02-07-2010, 06:07 PM
updated first post with fix...

mark_gober
03-29-2010, 11:47 AM
DrivenbyDemons,

Can you provide me a current status on your Windstar. I've got each and every sympton you did and I'm confused about your fix.

You stated that you had deposits on your spark plugs and that your car was burning oil. You said that your P0305 was caused by the injectors, but is your car still burning oil? Did you change the remainder of your valve stem seals?

My wife's car started burning oil fairly quickly about 6 months ago. I typically have to put a quart or two in, in between oil changes. A rough estimate would be about 3 quarts per 4000 miles. Recently, the engine started bucking under moderate acceleration. (I just did the IMRC fix about a year ago and they are all still functional...and besides that was causing knocking...this is a definite stumble)

I pulled the plugs and five of the six were in horrible condition. They had the black deposits on there that were very crusty. I put new ones in there and it still does it. I'm under the assumption that the deposits are tied to the loss of oil and the stumbling. I really want to replace the valve stem seals, but I wanted to see the results of your work.

Mark

DrivenByDemons
03-29-2010, 12:22 PM
Hey Mark,

I did change the rest of the seals about 1000 miles ago and the van is still burning oil. I have not checked the plugs to see how they look but will do that tonight when I get home and let you know. I would hold off changing those seals if I was you. It was a lot of work and didn't seem to help.

The clean injectors have made the van run like she's brand new, except for the oil consumption.

DrivenByDemons
03-29-2010, 08:55 PM
Mark,

Just check the #5 plug and it's all crudded up again. It's been 1200 miles since I changed these plugs. I guess rings are my problem. Wouldn't bother with the valve seals based on this observation. Anyone have suggestions to stop burning oil from the rings???

tempfixit
03-30-2010, 12:02 AM
Did you try a wet compression test on #5 to verify if it actually the rings??? Do these engines heads have a history of cracked valve guides or needing to be knurled to elminate oil consumption??? Just a thought.

tomj76
04-05-2010, 06:23 PM
Just a caution with the wet test, and the conclusions you draw from it.

Usually the piston has three rings (I don't remember what's used in the 3.8 L Windstar engines). The top two rings are compression rings and the bottom ring is the oil ring. When the oil ring goes bad, you start to burn oil.

A wet/dry compression test can show bad rings, because the oil in the cylinder will seal up and space between the cylinder wall and the rings, giving a much higher reading than the dry test. The caution is that the oil ring could be bad, but you can still have a high compresion in the dry test.


When it comes right down to it, there no other good remedy for worn out rings than removing the piston, restoring the cylinder, and replacing the rings.

mark_gober
04-12-2010, 10:58 AM
I took my windstar to task over the weekend because of the bucking/misfire codes and deposits on my sparkplugs when i changed them several weeks ago.

I purchased the gasket set and tore the plastic intake manifold off to see what I could see. What I found was a horrible set of EGR ports. I used a pick to clear the gunk out and vacuumed it out. (It was actually sticking out about 1/4 out of each hole.)

I cleaned the intake ports which had a considerable amount of carbon buid up, just in front of the EGR ports. Following this, I removed the injectors and soaked them in a shotglass full of B12 chemtool. (Only the bottom 1/3 of the injector was immersed) After replacing the O-rings on the injectors, I reassembled everything and it runs like a champ now.

This might be a stretch, but I started giving the oil loss issue some thought. There had been some discussion about the rings possibly being the cause, but I'm leaning toward a new PCV valve. There was quite a bit of oil in the intake manifold. The only way that gets in there is through the PCV valve. Leaking valve stem seals would not cause oil to make it into the intake. Bad rings would cause smoke. I replaced my PCV and will benchmark my oil consumption. It will probably take several weeks to get a gauge on whether I'm still burning oil or not, but for now, she's running like she was new.

DrivenByDemons
04-12-2010, 12:37 PM
Good luck, I'm on my 2nd PCV valve and it hasn't helped at all. It is genuine Ford part bought at dealership.

sixpix
09-19-2010, 12:37 PM
Do you think the valve seal was causing the deposits or the dirty injector?

How long did the valve seal job take you? I found similar deposits on my #2 plug today. Any help tips would be appreciated.

wiswind
09-19-2010, 08:25 PM
Cleaning the injectors will be easier......so I would try that first.

wiswind
09-19-2010, 08:25 PM
Cleaning the injectors will be easier......so I would try that first.

schadd1971
12-02-2012, 05:46 PM
could this be an lower intake manifold gasket problem....is your coolant tank look like it has oil in it?

mark_gober
12-03-2012, 01:41 AM
could this be an lower intake manifold gasket problem....is your coolant tank look like it has oil in it?

Schadd,

my problem turned out to be a bad head gasket on the rear of the engine. Fixed that, stopped burning oil.

good luck.

mark

serge_saati
12-03-2012, 07:23 PM
That's make a lot of sense. That can cause oil burning, oil leaking, oil in coolant...

scubacat
12-03-2012, 10:28 PM
Head gasket is quite a job. Did you get the hear surface machined?

schadd1971
12-04-2012, 06:50 PM
did you do the head yourself and if so how hard was it...thinking of doing it myself......any one done this???? could this be the oil problem and crusted plugs...I have put 2 qts of oil in a few weeks a go and am now 1/2 qt low...runs good but something is up??? there is oil in coolant reserve as well...how do I nail a bad head gasket for sure...look at plugs on each bank and see ?

serge_saati
12-04-2012, 08:29 PM
It's very hard, especially on the Windstar, require a lot of knowledge, experience and tools. Especially to access to the rear gasket if the probelm is the rear one.

mark_gober
12-04-2012, 09:00 PM
did you do the head yourself and if so how hard was it...thinking of doing it myself......any one done this???? could this be the oil problem and crusted plugs...I have put 2 qts of oil in a few weeks a go and am now 1/2 qt low...runs good but something is up??? there is oil in coolant reserve as well...how do I nail a bad head gasket for sure...look at plugs on each bank and see ?

It wasn't the most difficult job I've ever done. It will take you several hours. I will tell you that the rear one is more difficult than the front one. I'll give you a few pointers.

Remove the windshield wiper cowl. Both the metal and plastic ones. It makes the job immeasurably easier. Use PB blaster (or similar substance) on the exhaust bolts. It will make disassembly quicker. When you take the lifters and rockers out, make sure you have a system to keep them in order and together. They should always go back in the same hole they came out of.

As far as special tools, I can only think of one that most mechanics don't have. A valve spring compressor. It isn't required unless you plan on replacing the valve stem seals.

Don't reuse the head bolts. They are not designed to be reused. Buy new ones. You can buy a gasket set which should have everything you need for the job. (It actually has more than you need, but it'll be cheaper than buying each gasket separately) I bought all my stuff through amazon, but RockAuto is usually cheap too.

Good luck

Mark

serge_saati
12-04-2012, 09:12 PM
I recommand also that you have an hex screwdriver for the engine mount screws. And also high temp silicone for the port seals. I suggest you to replace upper intake and lower intake gasket + port seal along with the head gaskets. So buy 2 kits, one for intake and one for head. Use also a sandpaper to polish the metal surface before insering the new gasket. And change isolator bolts (for the p171 TSB) as well if you didn't.

http://aerohobby.ca/store/images/categories/Screw%2040mm_stainless_flanged_nuts_800_logo.jpg

that's hex screw.

schadd1971
01-02-2013, 09:42 PM
found my oil consumption/ash on plug problem....LOWER INTAKE GASKETS were bad....

jonreyna
04-18-2013, 11:32 AM
Fixed this issue with the plugs, engine pinging and the oil consumption by replacing the lower intake gaskets
see my video
http://youtu.be/tc_z4vPGVNs

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