Car shut off and won't start

I was driving my 74 Catalina down the street and went to make a turn went the whole car shut off. I pulled over and was able to get it to start again after trying a few times. I got home (1 block) and backed into the driveway. I left the car running park while i went to make sure nothing was in the way and it shut off. now it won't start again. i turn the key and get the eh eh eh eh but it won't turn on. it has a full tank of gas so that's not it. any ideas? earlier i sprayed some carb/choke cleaner on it. i don't think it has anything to do with it but i can't be sure. the last time i ran into a no start problem was when the car shut off in a car wash. i though it had to do with water in the tank and then 9 hours later it turned back on. it's doing that same type of no start sound/action now. thank you.

the car has 49,000 miles on it and to my knowledge, has never had it's timing belt changed. that was to come in a few weeks but might this be it? had it been that, would it have started after it first shut off? when accelerating sometimes, the car hesitates and that's why i was sprayed the carb with the cleaner. i hope all this info may help generate suggestions.

I'm 99% sure your 74 Pontiac Catalina with the stock engine will have a timing chain rather than a belt. With only 49k miles, I doubt it's stretched. Plus, since it sounds like it idles okay when you can get it to start, it doesn't sound like a stretched timing chain.

I would suggest you start by determining if the car doesn't have fuel or doesn't have spark. If you have a spark tester, that should be easy to test. Or, you could try spraying some of the carburetor cleaner into the car while someone cranks the engine and see if the car acts like it wants to start. Of course don't look down carb while doing this, it takes eyebrows awhile to grow back. :)

If you don't have spark, you might have an issue with the points being worn and/or out of adjustment. If the engine stumbles when spraying cleaner down the carb, then there is probably a fuel issue (pump, lines, or carb).

-Rod

so, if i spray carb cleaner on the carb and the engine starts to stutter as if it's about to shut off, then there's a problem with the fuel somewhere? (it was doing this earlier when i sprayed it) forgive me if this sounds like a stupid question but i'm far from mechanically inclined. i sprayed some starter fluid and i still got nothing. in my research, something said that if you spray the starter fluid and it starts but shuts off in a few seconds then it's a fuel issue. if it does nothing with the starter fluid, then it's a spark or compression issue. does this make sense? if so, where do i go from here if the likelihood of the chain being an issue is slim to none? i' don't have a spark tester

so after trying a few more times and putting some starter fluid, i got it to start.... but it runs rough as heck in park and neutral. it stalls out when i go to put it in drive but reverse seems to work fine. i noticed when i went to put the power windows up, it seemed like the car was going to stall and the lights dimmed. the last couple of weeks when i would drive somewhere, if i was out in a few minutes, like a run to the store, it would crank real slow and eventually start. i have a new battery that i was picking up tomorrow. might this have anything to do with my whole dilemma?

i sprayed some starter fluid and i still got nothing. in my research, something said that if you spray the starter fluid and it starts but shuts off in a few seconds then it's a fuel issue. if it does nothing with the starter fluid, then it's a spark or compression issue. does this make sense? if so, where do i go from here if the likelihood of the chain being an issue is slim to none? i' don't have a spark tester

This is exactly what I was trying to suggest, but I mentioned carb cleaner since I knew from a previous post you already had that.

If you have a Harbor Freight store near you, you could probably pick up a spark tester for about $2 and it would be well worth it, even though it doesn't sound like that's your problem currently.

It does sound like your battery is not maintaining its charge. It could be the alternator is not putting out sufficient voltage and/or current to keep the battery up, or the battery may be too tired to take a good charge, or cable connections may be too loose and/or dirty. Since it sounds like you've been fighting these symptoms for a few days, the alternator is probably charging.

If you've looked everything over, making sure your battery cables are clean and tight and vacuum lines are good, as well as making sure the spark plugs, plug wires, distributor cap, and points are healthy, you might wait until the new battery to see what happens to your symptoms. It sounds like under load you still have something happening to cause the engine to stall. I trust the starting fluid is still being metered into the car for both reverse engagement and drive. If not, the stalling in a gear other than reverse may just be due to the extra time it takes to shift through reverse.

Unless you have an aftermarket electric fuel pump installed, it sounds like you'll likely need to dig in to the fuel system. If you're certain that fuel is getting to the carburetor in sufficient quantity, then it might be time for a carb rebuild. But, start by taking care of the things you know are an issue such as the battery.

-Rod

i recently changed spark plugs, distributor cap, and rotor.the wires i wasn't able to change at that point because the auto parts store gave me hei wires. up until yesterday it hadn't done this with the exception of slow crank and it tried to drive off without letting it run for a while, stalling when hitting the gas. that was very seldom as opposed to the feeling that it was going to stall but didn't which happened more often. i just turned it on now and it came on no problem but it's doing a really rough idle. if timing is off, because that hasn't been checked, could that be a cause? if so, should there have been some signs that maybe i didn't recognize?
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I suppose if the timing were off it might give you rough idle. I'm not sure that it would cause a no-start some times and just rough idle other times. I also wouldn't expect it to start with starter fluid due to timing being off. Maybe the distributor is loose and moving around?

Carbs and being able to adjust timing are before my experience, so hopefully those more knowledgeable will offer some input on your timing questions.

-Rod

i changed the fuel filter earlier and sprayed some more carb cleaner still to no avail. it runs but real rough and doesn't sound right, like no power. when i hit the gas pedal the engine and car shake violently.
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I realize on a '74 the exhaust always has an odor, but does it look or smell like it's running really rich? Your symptoms now sound quite similar to a misfire, but I suppose timing could also give those symptoms. Are you sure the plug wires are routed properly?

-Rod

problem solved, i think. i changed the spark plug wires since that hadn't been done yet and it was still rough. so, i took off the distributor cap and looked inside it. 2 of the 8 points were black. i went to see if i could wipe it off and a like black film shaped like the contact fell off. i put it back on and now it seems to be running fine. any idea what caused those 2 to be black? the distributor cap and rotor are only like a month and a half old. thanks for the help

problem solved, i think. i changed the spark plug wires since that hadn't been done yet and it was still rough. so, i took off the distributor cap and looked inside it. 2 of the 8 points were black. i went to see if i could wipe it off and a like black film shaped like the contact fell off. i put it back on and now it seems to be running fine. any idea what caused those 2 to be black? the distributor cap and rotor are only like a month and a half old. thanks for the help

That's typical of arcing. The rotor does not actually physically touch the contacts, it just gets extremely close... close enough for the electrical energy to jump the tiny gap as a spark. If the gap is slightly too big, due to manufacturing tolerances and/or (I believe) if the plug wires are defective and shorting out to ground, the spark in that gap starts to burn the contacts.

Given the plug wires are all-new, possibly the problem will not occur. But you should keep an eye on it.

BTW... did you use carbon-core or solid-core plug wires? The solid-core wires are better for a points-type ignition, but may cause some radio interference.

so i thought all was well. yesterday was my first day really driving it. on the highway i was doing about 50 and i heard a noise but since the music was on, i didn't hear it well enough to describe it. then it felt like the car shut off but it didn't. however, it did start to slow down and hitting the gas didn't do anything. a few seconds later, it did start to accelerate. i was able to get my destination but now it stumbles during idle like it's about to shut off. idle in park isn't as bad as it is in drive. it also turns on rough with a hard to describe but can't be good noise when it turns over to start. i'm going to check my distributor cap again as well as wires and plugs. what else should i check/check for. the oil gauge bounces when it, what i would guess, is misfiring. not sure if that would mean anything but i just want to describe everything i see/hear. exhaust makes like a pop pop sound too. thanks
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my inexperience is now starting to show and i'm about to call it quits and pay somebody. car started this am but was still idling funny. took wire plugs and cap off to check. put back on and car started but then shut off. now when i crank it, it looks like gas or something is shooting up out the car? what have i done? and will it be an expensive fix?
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When you changed the cap and rotor, did you change the points and condenser?

These are two small components that sit underneath the rotor, inside the distributor. The 'points' is actually a mechanical switch and the 'condenser is a simple electronic component... it looks a bit like a silver sewing thimble with a wire attached.

These 2 components generally last 10,000 miles at most. When they go bad, the car will run rough and like to stall erratically. They are easy to change but experience is required to set the points up properly. One needs a 'dwell tachometer' to adjust the points gap properly.

As for the gas shooting up.... the car has a fuel pump attached to the engine, with a steel line (sometimes it's partially rubber) running from it to the carburetor. The gas is under relatively low pressure (about 5 psi), but if the line breaks due to rust or has loose fittings, gas can spray around the engine compartment.
Yes, this is a severe fire hazard. If you cannot fix the problem easily, have the car towed to a mechanic.

I'll let my inexperience show here. Well, sort of. Since this car is older than me, I guess I shouldn't be expected to know what the distributor setup looks like on it, right? ;)

In post #10 above moliva mentions that the cap and rotor were replaced recently. If the car has a rotor, wouldn't that suggest it does not have a points-style ignition?

-Rod

Please pardon my intrusion. 74 Catalina? Nice car. If I'm not mistaken the ignition systems of the GM's
were modernized to HEI systems beginning in 1974, which eliminated the points and condenser style.
I know from experience that the ignition module that replaces the points/condenser can and does
eventually fail in a couple of ways. The car will run terribly if it runs at all; or after having shut the car off it
will simply refuse to start again until the module is replaced. These modules are heat sensitive and must
be installed with a layer of dilectric grease which is often supplied with the new replacement module. It is
also my experience that the only modules to use are the authentic GM replacement parts and not the
offshore garbage as the counterfeit modules do not have the correct ignition dwell for optimum performance.
If the ignition system in the Catalina is indeed an HEI unit and the ignition module has not been changed;
that is where I would be looking for your problem. They're not overly expensive or too difficult to change and
you will find it right under the distributor rotor button, held down with a couple of small screws. I hope that
this helps.

If I'm not mistaken the ignition systems of the GM's
were modernized to HEI systems beginning in 1974, which eliminated the points and condenser style..

The original poster has started several threads on this particular car here at AF. It was established elsewhere that the car has a points-style ignition.

But I can understand your assumption. This particular thread only gives a clue to that when the OP says the HEI plug wires were the wrong ones.

FWIW, GM did not universally adopt HEI systems until mid-1974 (for the 1975 model-year)

it's a points distributor. it was an early
74. to update my last post, it doesn't look like gas shooting up now. nothing is wet but it does look like a burst of air or vapor and when i look at the carb afterward there is like white smoke that is going away. i didn't change the points and condensor. i guess that's would be the next thing to try?
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Okay, now that I've actually had the time to read the entire thread and it has been established beyond
any doubt that the distributor in the Catalina is a points style, I would definitely recommend servicing the
ignition points and condenser (capacitor) by replacing them. There are probably shops now with "technicians"
working in them that have never even seen ignition points and they don't necessarily know any more
about them than you do and they might not have an old dwell/tach meter either. If you want to replace them
yourself I wouldn't let the job intimidate you. If you can't aquire a dwell/tach meter get a feeler gauge that
measures in thousandths. I personally have used a .017" or seventeen-thousandths of an inch feeler gauge
on the initial adjustment of new single ignition-points installation with excellent results. The rubbing block
of the new points should be set to this measurement on the high side of the points-cam lobe of the distributor.
This is achieved by loosening the distributor and rotating it to bring the high point of the points-cam lobe right
under the rubbing block of the points-set with the .017" feeler gauge between the points. Then lock the base
of the points-set into this position with the set-screw. You might have to do this a couple of times to get
it right but once you have confirmed the points-gap rotate the distributor back to exactly where it was and
don't forget to lock it there.
The ignition points should now close completely and then open seventeen thousandths of an inch as they
ride the points-cam. This is not a number that I pulled out of the ether either. Many times; and more often
than not; I've found myself in a situation where I've had to address the ignition points without a dwell meter
and the feeler gauge was my only reference. I've used .017" on Chev, Olds and Pontiac and on Dodge
as an initial points setting and have not had to disturb it from there. The engines performed acceptably.
I am visualizing from your information that the ignition points in your car's distributor are probably barely past
being able to open at all and I've seen it many times. Oh, while I'm thinking of it; I don't know if your car has a
radio in it; but if you're listening to the radio with the engine not running, make sure that you have turned the
ignition key back into the accessory lock position. If you are listening to the radio with the ignition key in the
engine run position "you will fry the ignition-points" requiring that they be replaced with new ones again.
I hope that this helps.