Yeah I'm an American as apple pie. Yet tired of my pockets being emptied on crap products being made by complacent workers and poor management american run companys...
Its on the table as in your face as to a product you pay for and expect a good product and chevy and dodge are crap products....
Ford is on the edge...

Peace

It's irrelevant if American products are good, bad, or indifferent. The more you buy foreign the faster American businesses will fail. Once all of the American businesses are gone, you then will have no choice except foreign. You'll know it and they'll know it. Then they will drop their quality, raise their prices, and you won't be able to do a thing about it.

You may think you're standing up now, but all you're doing is step one to bending over.

sorry alloro-----american men work to hard and just a descent car to get to work is standard...your not getting the picture. You think the men running these companys have grease on their finger? Hell no-------

whats this got to do with fixing dodge vans!!!!

The discussion goes toward the quality of the construction put into the vans. Fair game IMO.

The quality of the construction of the van? The bottom line is this. Just look at the cars and vans on the road to mostly cars and what do you see? The majority? Is it American? Who's in bankruptcy?
Thinking people make a good product-greedy people make the illusion of a good product...

Games over for me-----I'll buy the best best product for my money...

I didn't rate the quality. I only mentioned quality as being the subject of discussion and therefore it is appropriate for it to be discussed here.

whats this got to do with fixing dodge vans!!!!

I agree. This is a valid topic, but it belongs in Stress Relief, not in the Dodge Van forum... which is where it has been moved.

I have owned and driven nothing but American made vehicles. Both Ford and GM products, they have run, driven and lasted a VERY long time. I don't drive Diemler-Chrysler products cause I don't know how to work on them and I don't really like thier style. It's a personal decision. The reason I haven't bought any foreign vehicles is because I want to contribute to the AMERICAN economy not the foreign economies. I already have to purchase oil that is coming from the Middle East. I don't want to give my money to other countries. I can't change every persons mind but I do think that if the American people really want to bring the economy up they should purchase American made products, to include vehicles. There are plenty of fuel efficient vehicles that are American made.

Honda has as many assembly plants in the US and Canada as they do in Japan. So do a lot of other foreign mfgs. So you're still supporting the American economy buy buying certain "imports".

Honda has as many assembly plants in the US and Canada as they do in Japan. So do a lot of other foreign mfgs. So you're still supporting the American economy buy buying certain "imports".

Yeah, but all the high paying back office jobs are in Japan. That doesn't help us one bit.

Yeah, but all the high paying back office jobs are in Japan. That doesn't help us one bit.

Not one bit? There are thousands of blue collar workers making a living working for Japanese assembly plants in America. To me they're more important than the high paid suits. Anyway I'd rather give my money to the Japanese suits than to the greedy American suits who give themselves 20 million dollar bonuses using money "borrowed" from us taxpayers. A 20 million dollar bonus for nearly causing the company to go bankrupt? WTF???

...and I use the term "borrowed" very loosely - we all know they're not going to pay it back in full.

Nice to see some thinking people chatting on their views of what American made is. Well the dog days of summer are over for American complacency, not sure why? I mean the few cats their catching and putting away for their atrocitys against the business world itself well hey, it goes on down the ladder as to well made products...
I've been a freelancer, craftsman, artist all my life, so I live through my body and being. Not off the blood of another for the illusion of something they think are well made product that the suits and familys running the american auto industry or corporate fascists who have finally come to deal with reality...
My Dodge van I bought with 58k on it outright has drained my pockets to the point that I will never buy another American made car, truck again....

I bought with 58k on it outright has drained my pockets to the point that I will never buy another American made car, truck again....

OK, so you are judging all American branded cars based upon the worst make made? Then go out and buy a Mitsubishi so we can read your bitching about how bad all Japanese cars are.

Or just get a Ford.

The '88 GMC Sierra P/u I used to own years ago was a piece of crap, but the RAM Van I have now is great. The RAM Van has a zinc rust proof coating under the vehicle. The rust is absolutely minimum...just a few specks here and there. The GMC was coated with rust all over the frame. Both driven the same way, in the same conditions. Everything that could have gone wrong with a GMC P/U did go wrong. By the 100,000 mile mark, the following had gone bad: Fuel injection; transmission; universal joints; fuel pump; the crankshaft pully fell off; the air conditioner leaked; alternator; air pump; windshield wipers; and it only got 6 mpg! I started carrying spare parts with me in the event it broke down on the highway! That was the last GM product I ever purchased.

Had a few problems with my Dodge RAM Van, but nothing like that GMC.

The American products are a whole lot better made.Dana made a huge mistake,cylinder liners for Harley Davidson Motorcycles were made in Muskegon,Mi and Dana decided to send the cylinder liner line down to Mexico which was a huge mistake.Dana thought it was cheaper to build them in Mexico with a 75% scrap rate.Dana made a huge mistake and cheaper is not always better.My father's 2006 Ultra Classic had to have the Cylinder liners and pistons replaced in it under warranty,lots of piston slap and his was the 6th one in for this.My brother Scott knew about this and the rep from Harley was there not believing this.Harley Davidson Canceled their order from Dana and went to another supplier because of this.Anything Japanese has electrical problems which are very expensive to fix.I do know a yard in my area that does get calls for the Toyota Corolla engines and he wished that he had a lot of these engines to sell

Alright, if american cars are bought then the over paid sob's get paid more, if they get paid more then the workers get paid better, and then theres more workers. then those workers buy more things (like houses) so construction companies build houses for those people, then the lumber companies start to thrive, then they buy cars and houses, and so on and so on.

You buy a Jap car, the head people in Japan get paid better. End of story

Thats how it works wether you guys like it or not, and not even gona bother reading Warf's post :rofl:

You buy a Jap car, the head people in Japan get paid better. End of story

Yeah, if you buy a Japanese car, no one in America gets any money for anything to do with it.
:rolleyes:

Yeah, if you buy a Japanese car, no one in America gets any money for anything to do with it.
:rolleyes:

The big money leaves the US and never comes back.
:lol2:

Yeah I'm an American as apple pie. Yet tired of my pockets being emptied on crap products being made by complacent workers and poor management american run companys...
Its on the table as in your face as to a product you pay for and expect a good product and chevy and dodge are crap products....
Ford is on the edge...

Peace

You are American as apple pie ? " please " you are American diarrhea, move to Russia and get yourself a real car " Lada ",,, you commie

You are American as apple pie ? " please " you are American diarrhea, move to Russia and get yourself a real car " Lada ",,, you commie
:lol2: That's actually quite funny. But the American way is to buy stuff that is the best. In the long run, it's un-American to buy American stuff simply to be patriotic. Here's why:

Imo American industry is all about progress, innovation, improvement and effective response to market forces. Making goods and services better, more efficient etc has been the American way for a more than a century. Competition is key to advancing these principles.

But its difficult for American companies to pursue these goals and remain truly competitive if people slavishly buy the goods and services simply because they are 'American'.

Such brand loyalty may seen patriotic but so often it results in technological and industrial stagnation, so when the crunch of competitiveness arrives, the American companies are truly in a terrible position.

There's fine balance between quality and price that govern the consumer market. America has shown in recent history that it prefers to buy more crappy things for cheap than fewer good things for less. Follow this to any industry and it applies. Furniture, why buy it from a recognized furniture chain when you can get it from Wal-Mart? China is one of many foreign markets that have simply supplied product to demand - Americans want 'more for their money' creating this immense beast of insatiable consumerism resulting in a flood of cheap products made by people without engineering or design skill to offer to the lowest bidder. If you shop at Wal-Mart, you're supporting the system. Who says a new car should cost $10K, or a T-shirt should cost $7.95? You want quality, a T-shirt is going to cost you $35 and it won't fall apart after a month.

American (and Canadian) industry is more than capable with skills, intelligence and passion to make world-class product. But if nobody is willing to save up and pay for it, who are they going to sell to? You want something good, don't buy from the dollar store. You may have to wait a few more months, even years to buy that new product you wanted, but it will actually be worthwhile. And if you buy local, it will support local manufacturing, making high-paying and skilled jobs available close to home.

People have to educate themselves to what 'value' really is, and anybody who has bought appliances for their kitchen, or shoes, or even a house knows how this works. If it's cheap, there's a reason. This mentality is pushed on us from culture and advertising, we see people with iPods and Blackberrys and Plasma's and say "I gotta have that now!".

You want better local product? Do yourself and your country a favour, save up some money for the real thing and buy local. In regards to cars, well, I have a hard time practicing what I preach. American cars don't turn my crank as of late, and as much as I'd prefer to support Ford, GM or Chrysler, for my money I would just rather drive the competition. So I won't reduce my expectations for what I buy just to get local product, but in most cases (and recently Ford is showing examples of this) local is indeed competitive on a global scale.

There's fine balance between quality and price that govern the consumer market. America has shown in recent history that it prefers to buy more crappy things for cheap than fewer good things for less. Follow this to any industry and it applies. Furniture, why buy it from a recognized furniture chain when you can get it from Wal-Mart? China is one of many foreign markets that have simply supplied product to demand - Americans want 'more for their money' creating this immense beast of insatiable consumerism resulting in a flood of cheap products made by people without engineering or design skill to offer to the lowest bidder. If you shop at Wal-Mart, you're supporting the system. Who says a new car should cost $10K, or a T-shirt should cost $7.95? You want quality, a T-shirt is going to cost you $35 and it won't fall apart after a month.

American (and Canadian) industry is more than capable with skills, intelligence and passion to make world-class product. But if nobody is willing to save up and pay for it, who are they going to sell to? You want something good, don't buy from the dollar store. You may have to wait a few more months, even years to buy that new product you wanted, but it will actually be worthwhile. And if you buy local, it will support local manufacturing, making high-paying and skilled jobs available close to home.

People have to educate themselves to what 'value' really is, and anybody who has bought appliances for their kitchen, or shoes, or even a house knows how this works. If it's cheap, there's a reason. This mentality is pushed on us from culture and advertising, we see people with iPods and Blackberrys and Plasma's and say "I gotta have that now!".

You want better local product? Do yourself and your country a favour, save up some money for the real thing and buy local. In regards to cars, well, I have a hard time practicing what I preach. American cars don't turn my crank as of late, and as much as I'd prefer to support Ford, GM or Chrysler, for my money I would just rather drive the competition. So I won't reduce my expectations for what I buy just to get local product, but in most cases (and recently Ford is showing examples of this) local is indeed competitive on a global scale.

I agree.

There seems to be a widespread consumerist mentality based on buying stuff for the novelty factor, but simply not expecting it to last a long time.

My parents, my in-laws etc would buy fairly expensive products - furniture, suits, appliances shoes etc. with the expectation that the stuff was quality-made and would last for decades.

These days, people do not do that. Stuff is cheap, so cheap that when (not if) it breaks after a few months to a few years, they can replace it with more really cheap stuff. The fun of shopping and the novelty of getting new stuff cheap - even if its crap - feeds this consumer trend.
Consumers are so willing to sacrifice durability and fit-and-finish for a low price.

How can you sell quality to consumers who have such low expectations?

Imo this trend is incompatible with the environmentalist movement. It's a waste of resources to make cheap stuff only to have it be thrown away too soon. Make products better - even if they cost more - have people buy fewer products, get more use out of the stuff they have, and thus help save the planet.

I agree.

There seems to be a widespread consumerist mentality based on buying stuff for the novelty factor, but simply not expecting it to last a long time.

My parents, my in-laws etc would buy fairly expensive products - furniture, suits, appliances shoes etc. with the expectation that the stuff was quality-made and would last for decades.

These days, people do not do that. Stuff is cheap, so cheap that when (not if) it breaks after a few months to a few years, they can replace it with more really cheap stuff. The fun of shopping and the novelty of getting new stuff cheap - even if its crap - feeds this consumer trend.
Consumers are so willing to sacrifice durability and fit-and-finish for a low price.

How can you sell quality to consumers who have such low expectations?

Imo this trend is incompatible with the environmentalist movement. It's a waste of resources to make cheap stuff only to have it be thrown away too soon. Make products better - even if they cost more - have people buy fewer products, get more use out of the stuff they have, and thus help save the planet.

Well stated, MagicRat, couldn't agree more. I think the market is in a time of 'equalization' where we are seeing the toll we are taking not only on our wallets but our planet, and the ideas are shifting back to quality made local product. I trust and hope that the future holds both worlds to account - we can still have the things we want, but in a way that is more responsible globally.

There is another thing I will not buy that is Japanese made,guns and Browning is one which are mostly made in Japan.I seen a Browning at a Friends of the NRA banquent which going to won by some one and I looked on the gun: Made in Japan.I admit the Japanese make better hand woodworking tools which are expensive and I have a few of their saws which cut the opposite way,on the pull stroke and cut faster than a western hand saw. Quality of Japanese cars are coming down these days,a wrecking yard in my area has a whole bunch with them with no engines in them.Look what most people do to most older Toyota trucks,ditch the original engine and install a small block Chevy in it's place since the small block Chevy holds up better.

The point is not to not buy American products but more to not blindly accept American products if they are not good enough.

The same is true of products from any country.
It is easy to blame China for flooding the US with cheap and poor quality products but that is what is being demanded of them; cheap which inevitably ends up being of poorer quality (or at the expense of others).

Why do people think buying japanese cars will take money away from the american economy? GM is taking money away from the economy by asking for obscene amounts of money in the form of a bail out at tax payers expense. Most americans and canadians do not even realize that the majority of japanese cars on our roads were built here by honest hard working north americans, giving them good jobs with great benefits. what is the difference if you are working at Toyota or GM? Either way they are creating jobs. Do you really think GM puts the money they make back into the economy, if you do your high! GM and Chrysler insist on making inferior product and when we as consumers realize this and stop buying their product they still get our money anyways in the form of a bailout. Tell me how this is fair? As a mechanic I am groing increasingly frustrated with the quality i see everyday of american cars. Ford is actually starting to move in the right direction but still has a ways to go. Anyways it comes down to a question of supply and demand, we demand a good dependable product and GM or chrysler will have to supply it if they want our money. I'm tired of people brainwashing people into buying American because we have to help support our economy, GIMME A BREAK!

Why do people think buying japanese cars will take money away from the american economy?

Because it does. The back office is in Japan, and that's half the worforce. Plus since on paper foreign companies don't make any profits, they don't pay any income taxes here. Essentially, they are getting a free ride, espically since we were dumb enough to allow imports to qualify for cash for clunkers.

Let me get this right.

According to you:
People in the American factories who get paid money doesn't constitute helping the American economy.
People in the American dealerships who get paid money to sell cars don't constiture helping the American enconomy.
People in America who get paid money to haul vehicles across the country to various dealerships don't constitute helping the American economy.

There's more but hopefully, you get the gist.


Also.

Plus since on paper foreign companies don't make any profits, they don't pay any income taxes here

Citation please.
Simply saying it is, doesn't make it true.

I point you to this (http://www.usa-international-offshore-company-tax.com/foreign_corporations.asp).

In case you're too lazy to read it i'll quote the important part.
A foreign corporation, for US tax law purposes, is any corporation not organized under the laws of the United States, any state, or the District of Columbia. A corporation organized in a US possession, such as Guam, is considered a foreign corporation, unless certain conditions detailed in IRC section 881(b) are met.

Income earned by a foreign corporation is subject to US income tax under two circumstances: net income effectively connected with a US trade or business is taxed at normal corporate income tax graduated rates (see company tax); US source income not effectively connected with a US trade or business is usually taxed at a 30% rate.

Unless of course you're implying that somehow, Toyota managed to hide 730,000 car sales last year from the US tax man.

Thank you for the backup Drunken Monkey. I really enjoy this site a lot but unfortunately most people on it will say anything without doing the research just to prove their point. It is nice to see someone like yourself who takes the time to give and informed reply.