We have a profile that we can grind onto you cams and will give you approx 10% more power and about 1000rpm more at the top end.The cost to grind your cams is $250NZD+gst.

I have not seen the computer out of a '99 Primera but if it is the same as the earlier ones we can chip it (actually an external memory board added inside the computer)for $999+gst.We can then program what ever rpm limit you would like and also alter the fuel and ignition maps to suit the cams and any other mods you have done(exhaust etc).

I got offered this.....getting more information on it later...
what do you guys think of this idea anyway?
please do give comments....
don't wanna fucx up my engine..it's still quite new :p

Who made this offer?? Are they an established and reputable outfit??

I've heard it mentioned before that regrinding cams can be quite risky. You invariably end up with steeper lobe ramps that will put more strain on the valvetrain.

When they said "if it is the same as the earlier ones we can chip it", did they mean P10 pre- '93.5 - as far as I'm aware nobody has cracked the code for the ECUs after that date. For example, Peter Van Brugel only offers a chip for the P10 and not the P11. Prestige only offers the Dastek Unichip for the P11 which is a programmable piggy back computer, not a chip. i.e. Prestige knows that the computers are different on the later cars.

For $817 + GST and about 4 hours labour Peter Van Brugel's outfit can set you up with a programmable piggy back computer. By the time it was installed (4hours labour) the price wouldn't be far off and you'd have a much more flexible, tested and safe system.

Please post the info when you get it.:)

hehe the place is called " Kelford Camtech"
it's in Christchurch
this is there website (http://www.kelford.co.nz)

Anyway...do you know if peter has cams avaiable for us?
I mean..to get the entire exhaust from the header to the tip peter is gonna charge me around 1300nzd...then i thought i could probably get more gain for that money getting the cams done...do you agree?
i am sick of loosing to those standard Starlet GTs man...
can't even beat the FX GT until over 140kpm.....
crap :mad: :mad: :mad:

Kelford has been around for quite a while (my chev engine has a Kelford grind in it) so if they'll guarantee it I guess it'd be o.k.

Hmmm... 10%, that's about the difference between the 110kW engines and yours isn't it? (allowing for the different exhaust manifold). Maybe Kelford's is just gonna grind the profile from the higher output SR20s onto your cam. If that is what they do, you'd probably be better off getting another intake cam for the high output motor that corresponds to yours - then at least you know it's gonna be reliable.

Pete V.B. doesn't have any cams listed on his website but it can't hurt to give them a call to check. Maybe he can put you onto some.

As far as the exhaust goes, how about just doing the header? It seems that this would get you most of the power from exhaust mods anyway.

I think you should explore doing a GT upgrade. i.e. getting GT parts of the same model as your car and fitting them to your motor. You've done the intake, right? so you could get the GT exhaust manifold and intake cam. Might save you $$ you can spend elsewhere. Go to this site http://www.primeraweb.co.uk , enter and click on modifications. It covers most of the questions you are asking.;)

Oh, I forgot, who was offering the chip?

the same people man

hey do you think Peter VB's header will be better than the GT header?
i have been thinking about just doing the extractors....
but was worried that the power gain will not be enough...
altho..everybody on here says that you get over 90% of the gain from the header...and shit all from the actual exhaust?

is this real? :p

+ i have been wondering...is that extractor 9-13hp significant?
i mean is it like...oh...i have got another 10hp now..i am faster...
or does the car really go harder?

yea i have got the air intake done already..so ....
btw....
a Primera has less power than a dohc Vtec civic aye...?
hm...

oh by the way my sr20 is the new roller rocker type anyway...will in still work with the older model cams?

You'll need a cam for a roller cam motor.

No idea on the gains with the Pete VB header compared with the GT header. All I know is some sportier models came out with a tubular manifold, not the cast iron type.

As for the hp being noticeable, go to a car sales yard and take a 110kW Primera for a drive and see what you think. Compare it with yours. Who knows, you might trade on one.:p :p

Originally posted by T4 Primera
I've heard it mentioned before that regrinding cams can be quite risky. You invariably end up with steeper lobe ramps that will put more strain on the valvetrain.

YES YES YES.

Do not get regrinds! In addition to what Sandy has already mentioned, regrinds change the base circle of the cams, and this leads to other problems and requires some funky shimming usually to get them to work OK.

It is a pretty ghetto way to to produce cams. They usually don't perform worth a shit and some actually hurt performance.

If you want cams, the JWT roller cams are still under development, but should be worth waiting for. Glen "Lumpy" Campbell in OZ is a JWT dealer and can get them for you. JUN also makes excellent cams for the SR20, but I'm not sure they offer roller cams.

Hey P10det, dont talk Crap!

There is nothing wrong with a good regrind, providing its done correctly.
In fact you have the same risk of faliure in grinding a new billit as you do regrinding an old cam. The ONLY difference is an old cam is cheaper to buy than a new billit.


pche059
Where abouts in NZ are you?
Kelford have a good reputation, and have certainly been around a while, but 10% from new cams is pretty poor, as T4 Primera suggested it sounds like thier just offering the profile from a new model.
Try asking them for a mild street or race cam, go for say an extra 15kw-20kw peak if you really want to make the cost worth while.

If your Auckland or Tauranga based I know some good shops who can do some good custom cams to suit you perferctly.

Other wise have a search of the net, and ask around, the SR20 is a well developed and resuarched engine, so there are plenty of cam Profiles out there. The trick is to find one that will deliver a power increase and power curve you like then get it ground into a set of cams from a wreacker, and fit them to your engine. (that way you can return it to stock if you want to, and the car dosnt have to be off the road for very long). Make sure you use some adjustable cam gears at the same time.

The Guys at Kelford, or someone like Peter VB will be able to tell you at what point you need to change the ECU, or use a piggy back, most factory ECU's will actualy handle mild cams with out any trouble.
I wouldn't worry about an ignition upgrade untill you start adding head work to the equation. (which you need if you want the most from your new cams)

and yes the DOHC VTEC civic's have more power, 117kw for a pre 92, and 125kw for a post 92. Its also only a 1600. :D

Originally posted by Moppie
Hey P10det, dont talk Crap!

There is nothing wrong with a good regrind, providing its done correctly.
In fact you have the same risk of faliure in grinding a new billit as you do regrinding an old cam. The ONLY difference is an old cam is cheaper to buy than a new billit.

Now who is talking crap? Oh, of course.... a Honduh driver. I guess it's universal all around the world.

Look, pche059, I've giving you good advice, as is T4. It's your money to waste however. Regrinds suck. The base circle is screwed and has to be compensated for with too much shimming causing stress on the valvetrain that is not good. The geometry of the valvetrain gets screwed around. The only time I might even consider regrinds is if there are no cams ground from billet available.

Originally posted by Moppie
but 10% from new cams is pretty poor

That's actually not too bad for an SR20. I guess Honduhs have shitty cams from the factory.

Originally posted by Moppie
Make sure you use some adjustable cam gears at the same time.

Properly designed and tested cams do not need cam gears. JWT extensively tests their cams and they work best at stock cam timing.

Originally posted by Moppie
I wouldn't worry about an ignition upgrade untill you start adding head work to the equation. (which you need if you want the most from your new cams)

You will not need an ignition upgrade for a NA SR20DE. The stock ignition is extremely good. You will not benefit from an ignition upgrade until running very high levels of boost. This is from a great deal of testing, not some Honduh driver talking shit.

Once you start flaming people any arguments you may try and make suddenly fall apart very quickly.

Iv used Reground cams in both my own road car (it was a Triumph) and a Race car. I also know plenty of people who have used them in thier own road cars, and in other race cars.

Shimming up a cam is no big deal, if your unable to fit the right sized shims, that isnt a problem with the cam, but your mechanical skills.
I think you fail to realise whats involved with grinding a freash billit or regrinding an old cam.
The same basic process is used for both. The cam lobes are ground to a desired profile. It makes no differnce to the grinding machine if the cam is a new a billit or an old one. Just as long as its the same basic shape.
(although on a new billit, its possible more material may need to be removed).

As for reducing the base circle, well you can take two cams from two different engines and swap them over, and theres a high chance you will have to change the shims. Measure the base circle on a reground cam, and then on one thats done very high milage, you will probobly find the differnce is not much, certainly not enough to as you claim stress the drive train!

Only a VERY mild cam change would not require altering the stock cam timing to get the most out of them, and it would be a grind so mild it would be a waste of money getting it. (unless economy was your goal).
Altering the lift and duration of a cam profile also requires you to alter the cam timing if you want to get the most from it, any engine tunner can tell you this. Its one of those things that affects all engines, regardless of age, displacement, or company of manufactor

As for the only 10% gain.
Unless the head porting and intake and exhaust system on the SR20 is extremly poor then 10kw is not much, and I belive Nissan does make some well designed heads. Also as Primera T4 pointed out, this is an achievable gain just using some bolt on parts from another model. If Im going to buy new cams, I want a worth while power increase, and im sure most people will agree.
Primera T4 has given excellent and unfaultalbe adivce, I was not disagreeing with any of it, just backing most of it up, as the word of two people who do seem to know what thier talking about carrys a lot more weight than the word of one.
While the word of one person who can't even spell Honda and has to resort to insults because he lacks reasoning to back up his false statements carrys very little weight.


And just because I own a Honda dosnt mean I hate or don't know anything about Nissans, my Fisrt car was a Nissan, and im curently building a hybrid kit car that uses some Nissan parts.

:cool:

pche059
I just remeber what it cost to get a cam ground for my 6cyl Triumph abuot 4yrs ago. Just the cost of the regrind was about $150.
So $250 for two 4cyl cams is a good price. :D

I wouldn't put reground cams in my car if you paid me. Just my $0.02.

Originally posted by G-Forces
I wouldn't put reground cams in my car if you paid me. Just my $0.02.

I have to admitt I used to have the same attidute, then I decided to work over an engine that new billits were unavliable for, and the tuner simple recomened a regrind. I was very scepticle at fisrt, but asked around, friends, people in my car club, guys in the service parks, other tuners, and they all said the same thing. Regrinds have a bad reputatin they dont deserve.
The only problems they may have is if a cam from a very high milage engine with a lot of wear on it is reground, there might not be enough meat left to get a good new profile, or if there was heavy pitting from excess wear on the lobes it could weaken the cam.
However a good reliable shop will not even consider doing a regrind to a cam in this condition, as I found out when the fisrt cam I took in had come from a high milage engine, had some sever pitting and was no longer completely straight. (im not kidding!)
But you can get the same problems with a new billit. There might have been a flaw in the casting process, an unknown weak spot may exist that dosnt show up will you hit 6,000rpm. Or it may have been badly ground when its intial shape and bearing surfaces were made.
Iv actualy talked to a guy who only use's regrinds in his race car after a new billit failed and destroyed a new motor during a race. His theory was that a regrind had been tested before, if it was going to break it would have a long time ago, but you can't be so sure with a new billit.
Its a slightly flawed theory, but still isnt totaly stupid.

After doing a little resurch into regrinds and then having experiance using them I dont have a problem with useing them again in the future.

Originally posted by G-Forces
I wouldn't put reground cams in my car if you paid me. Just my $0.02.

I agree! No regrounds for me.

I do believe Kojima mentioned regounds in his SCC topic a few months ago in the SQUISH, BOOM, BAM section. Or whatever it was called.

no regrinds for me neither, i'd rather use something thats tried and tested, not something that will give me an "iffy" outcome, especially since my motor has roller rockers, and i want to be able to put my car back to stock, besides JWT is the best anyways ;)

Wow it was a big debate wasn't it?
:)
ok here is the updated news from kelford Camtech
Durability wise there is little effect on the cams.The more aggressive profile will cause slightly higher loads but the grinding does not effect the hardness of the cams.The idle will be noticable lumpier but still runs ok on a std ecu. If you are doing just the cams expect 10% over what you have now.Some of the gains in the NZ model are in the computer so if you do the computer at the same time you can expect bigger gains. With the cams done the point where cylinder efficiency starts to fall appreciably quicker than rpm is rising(horse power falls quickly) can be expected to move up 1000 rpm. Sorry we do not have any dyno graphs for this engine. Most SR20DEs have a skid type rocker with hydraulicly adjusted lash.Earlier GTiRs had this and then went to a roller type rocker with hydraulic adjustment,but some later ones seem to have roller with mechanical adjustment.What other models had I couldn't say.We use roller type in the Team Kiwi cars but I wouldn't say the roller is necessarilly better than the skid type in road application.We have profiles to suit any of these systems.


Moppie yea I am from Auckland
Wassup?

Originally posted by Moppie
Once you start flaming people any arguments you may try and make suddenly fall apart very quickly.

Hmmm. Let's get down to cases, shall we? :)

You took a pretty good poke at me. Don't bitch if I poke back harder. For now I'll let the facts speak for themselves and I'll comment later.

Originally posted by Moppie
Iv used Reground cams in both my own road car (it was a Triumph) and a Race car. I also know plenty of people who have used them in thier own road cars, and in other race cars.

So, you use them and you know plenty of people who use them? Does that tell us anything? Not really. Besides, a lot of people do things that don't make much sense.

Originally posted by Moppie
Shimming up a cam is no big deal, if your unable to fit the right sized shims, that isnt a problem with the cam, but your mechanical skills.
I think you fail to realise whats involved with grinding a freash billit or regrinding an old cam.

You think wrong. But, I also think I know why. I'll get to that in a minute.

Originally posted by Moppie
The same basic process is used for both. The cam lobes are ground to a desired profile. It makes no differnce to the grinding machine if the cam is a new a billit or an old one. Just as long as its the same basic shape.

You know, I don't give a rat about the grinding machine. I care about the valvetrain. The profile of the cam here isn't what's in question. It's the base circle and the effect on the valvetrain.

Originally posted by Moppie
As for reducing the base circle, well you can take two cams from two different engines and swap them over, and theres a high chance you will have to change the shims. Measure the base circle on a reground cam, and then on one thats done very high milage, you will probobly find the differnce is not much, certainly not enough to as you claim stress the drive train!

Not true, at least not with the vavletrain configuration of the SR20 engine. The SR20 engine neither acts directly upon the valves, nor does it act upon a pushrod. It acts upon a rocker suspended between the valves and a hydraulic lash adjuster. Altering the base circle throws the geometry of the valvetrain off. The SR20 engine specifically has a rather sensitive vavletrain. It's pretty unforgiving as anyone who has ever overrevved has experienced. With the altered geometry, the lash adjusters have a harder time.

Originally posted by Moppie
Only a VERY mild cam change would not require altering the stock cam timing to get the most out of them, and it would be a grind so mild it would be a waste of money getting it. (unless economy was your goal).
Altering the lift and duration of a cam profile also requires you to alter the cam timing if you want to get the most from it, any engine tunner can tell you this. Its one of those things that affects all engines, regardless of age, displacement, or company of manufactor

Well you are completely full of "it". You just don't know what you are talking about and it's funny because the answer is so simple.

JWT tests their cams extensively. Most companies would probably just put the roller cams JWT has prototyped on the market as is. But, testing yields improvements. JWT grinds their cams to work best straight up. When testing of their C series cams revealed that they needed some timing adjustment to produce the best results, they altered production to incorporate this timing adjustment into their production cams. That's not hard to do.

Mike Kojima has extensively tested the JWT S3 cams on the dyno using adjustable cam gears. This testing showed the S3 cams to work best straight up.

Now, with a turbo, you may find some adjusting will give improved results. But NA, they run best straight up.

So, your across the board response is just simply not true. Well designed and tested cams do not require cam gears.

Originally posted by Moppie
As for the only 10% gain.
Unless the head porting and intake and exhaust system on the SR20 is extremly poor then 10kw is not much, and I belive Nissan does make some well designed heads. Also as Primera T4 pointed out, this is an achievable gain just using some bolt on parts from another model. If Im going to buy new cams, I want a worth while power increase, and im sure most people will agree.

Well, again, you are wrong. I'm not pulling this out of my ass either. I can back up what I am saying. Sport Compact Car magazine tested several sets of cams for a number of manufacturers. Only JUN did not supply test cams, even though they said they would. The JWT S4 cams produced the greatest power increase of all the cams. It's been a year or more so I don't remember the exact numbers, but I believe they made approximately 16 more peak hp. On a roughly 155 hp engine, that is just barely over 10% (the car had a header and intake which sould yeild roughly 15 hp - also known through documented dyno testing). Independent dyno testing by friends using JUN cams put the JUN cams in the same range as the JWT.

So, these are the very best cams for the SR20DE that do not require changing the valve springs. I'm not pulling any of this out of my ass. Claims of big gains may be true for some engines/cars, but not the SR20 powered cars.

Originally posted by Moppie
Primera T4 has given excellent and unfaultalbe adivce, I was not disagreeing with any of it, just backing most of it up, as the word of two people who do seem to know what thier talking about carrys a lot more weight than the word of one.
While the word of one person who can't even spell Honda and has to resort to insults because he lacks reasoning to back up his false statements carrys very little weight.

Uh huh. Ok. Let's see who is talking out their ass here. I may have let you have it and you may not like it, and it may not fly in the face of what you think you know, but that doesn't mean I'm wrong. I can back up everything I said. OK, I take one piece of that back. I cannot provide hard data on the effect of the altered base circle. But, I can quote an automotive engineer who has worked in developement for two different OEMs, is a consultant and R&D engineer in the aftermarket performance industry, and used to build race engines for Toyota's GTP race cars. If you think you know more than him, well, I think that speaks for itself.

As for spelling Honduh, oh I can spell it just fine. I prefer my spelling. I've owned two and doubt I'll ever own another. They are good cars, no question. I won't argue that point with you. They are not for me.

As for the insults, don't forget you accused me of talking crap. Hmmm. As I said, I can back up my statements, so I think you'll lose the lack of reasoning issue - not that this is a contest. But if you choose to make it so, you'll lose. As for false statements, you haven't a prayer. I can back them up.

Originally posted by Moppie
And just because I own a Honda dosnt mean I hate or don't know anything about Nissans, my Fisrt car was a Nissan, and im curently building a hybrid kit car that uses some Nissan parts.
:cool:

Hey, I never said you did.

Look, you accused me of talking crap. Well, I just overwhelmed you. I can provide hard data to back up my statements, except the base circle issue and as I said, I can quote someone with more knowledge that you and me combined times two as evidence.

Maybe I made this personal, but I don't believe I did so anymore than you. I don't know Honduhs that well (despite owning two), but then I don't go on a Honduh board telling people with a good deal of Honuh experience that they don't know shit.

I have built an approximately 200 bhp normally aspirated SR20DE (not as easy as you probably think). I have installed an SR20DET into my P10 with modifications to make it spool faster and make more power with no downside (except cost possibly). I will, however, be the first to admit to being a turbo monkey. I know a bit about them, but I'm no guru. I also know that most supposed turbo gurus don't know that much either. That's not my opinion, but the opinion of the previously mentioned engineer who is personally responsible for nearly all of the high hp turbo SR20s in the US. His results are completely duplicateable by anyone, even 3,000 miles away (as has been done). It is also the opinion of a Garrett Turbochargers engineer. I have faith in them. In addition, I race an SR20 powered car in SCCA club racing. So, I'm not without experience with this engine.

To a certain extent, I don't care what you say or what anyone buys. But, people spend hard earned money on stuff based upon what they are told. So, towards that end I will dispute things said in error. And don't confuse opinion with fact.

Now, as to why I think you believe as you do about reground cams.....

Does your Triumph use pushrods? Regrinds on a pushrod engine will not alter valvetrain geometry. You just adjust the valve lash, effectively making the pushrod longer. No big deal. Hell, even an OHC engine with cams acting directly on the valves will not alter the geometry. There are cetainly fewer issues with regrinds on these engines. But, on the SR20, and similarly configured engines, there are issues. If my original statement only applies to the SR20 family of engines, all I can say is this is an SR20 forum and I was talking about an SR20 engine.

someone just got told...does this moppie dude know who he's talking to!!! i suggest he picks up a Sport Compact Car Mag. and read george's article lol :sun:

Originally posted by Nismoboy1
someone just got told...does this moppie dude know who he's talking to!!! i suggest he picks up a Sport Compact Car Mag. and read george's article lol :sun:

Hehe. Thanks John, but I'm really just one of the guys. :)

Originally posted by P10DET


Hehe. Thanks John, but I'm really just one of the guys. :)

One of the guys with a bad attitude, when it comes to holding a debate.
Iv only ever looked at one copy of SCC, its rather hard to find down here, and when you do find it its also rather expensive. And just becuase you right an article for a magazine dosnt make you an engine Guru!

What you say about the effects of changing the base circle does make sense. However you would have to look at how much the base circle is changed before it becomes a problem. Remember that a cam suffers wear over time, and the base circle will change as the engine ages, so Nissan must build allowance's into the valve train for this.
If your regrind of the cam takes you well below the tolerances allowed for normal wear then you could have a problem, but this is only likly to occur on a very aggresive profile, something that only nets a 10% gain is likly to be quite mild.
Unless the SR20 head suffers from extremly poor flow characteristics, in which case some head porting would also be a good idea.

Please also note the Reply that pche059 got back from Kelford, they have been manufactoring cams for a lot of different motors for a long time, and by the sound of it designed the cams for the Team Kiwi Primera, which is possibly one of the fasted 2.0L touring cars currently in New Zealand. If you want to go off what the experts say, then they are certainly experts in he field.
(and if you hadn't noticed its possible for experts to disagree.)

pche059

Yes im auckland based. (well close enough :D)

I recomend you ring Leading Edge Cylinder Heads in East Tamiki, and have a chat to Dwight. 274 6114. He may just pass you onto someone else, or he may say he can to X and you will get Y gains, or if you want A gains then he can B. But Im pretty sure he will suggest some porting to go with a custom cam grind.

If you only want to drop in some cams, then as well as Kelford you can also check out,
CSL (cam shaft services) in Palmy North, 06 356 3700
They have a similar reputation to Kelford, and I think have been around almost as long.

Originally posted by Moppie
One of the guys with a bad attitude, when it comes to holding a debate.

If you look back, you will see that you pulled the attitude first. I didn't give you an attitude until you gave me one.

I'm more than happy to extend an olive branch here, but not if you cannot admit at least that.

Originally posted by Moppie
Iv only ever looked at one copy of SCC, its rather hard to find down here, and when you do find it its also rather expensive. And just becuase you right an article for a magazine dosnt make you an engine Guru!

OK, first of all, I never said anything about that. Someone else did, so please don't make out like I said or believe that.

On the other hand, I'll wager a pint of your favorite that I have more experience with the SR20 engine that anyone here. I also have access to rather significant SR20 resources. I'm not trying to brag or cop an attitude with you. I'm not trying to be a self-proclaimed guru. It's just the facts and I am here to share as much information as I can with people.

All of the things I have said on this subjects are facts that I can provide hard data on. I have clarified that the base circle issue is not backed up by hard data I have, but the information from an engineer with better credentials than any of us and I'm certain even the shop you are talking about. Again, I'm not trying to be a jerk about this, but like I said, this guy built Toyota's racing engines for their IMSA GTP program.

So again, please rest assured I'm not proclaiming myself to be the God of all things SR20 or anything for that matter. I can be as full of shit as anyone else and am all too often. But I have my ducks in a row on this one.

Originally posted by Moppie
What you say about the effects of changing the base circle does make sense.

Thank you. I think we can find some common ground here.

Originally posted by Moppie
However you would have to look at how much the base circle is changed before it becomes a problem. Remember that a cam suffers wear over time, and the base circle will change as the engine ages, so Nissan must build allowance's into the valve train for this.


True. But I think (only an opinion here) that any regrind that does not significantly change the base circle will not be able to produce any power worth talking about - at least not on an SR20. I admit I don't have the facts on this on particular point, but I can inquire about it.

Originally posted by Moppie
If your regrind of the cam takes you well below the tolerances allowed for normal wear then you could have a problem, but this is only likly to occur on a very aggresive profile, something that only nets a 10% gain is likly to be quite mild.

OK, I have to set this straight again. The best cams available for the SR20 that do not require valve spring changes only make 10%. That is the very best (except I don't know anything about Piper cams). This includes Tomei, Toda, JWT, JUN, and a few others.

I think your assumptions about gains is off. Again, I am working from independent dyno testing that was done using procedures to ensure repeatability.

Originally posted by Moppie
Unless the SR20 head suffers from extremly poor flow characteristics, in which case some head porting would also be a good idea.

Porting will help, but please don't make the assumption that only making 10% gains will the best cams is because the ports suck. It's more that the SR20 leaves a lot less to be gained than many engines. Don't forget that this engine was designed specifically homolugation for racing.

Originally posted by Moppie
Please also note the Reply that pche059 got back from Kelford, they have been manufactoring cams for a lot of different motors for a long time, and by the sound of it designed the cams for the Team Kiwi Primera, which is possibly one of the fasted 2.0L touring cars currently in New Zealand. If you want to go off what the experts say, then they are certainly experts in he field.

OK

Originally posted by Moppie
(and if you hadn't noticed its possible for experts to disagree.)

Yep. Happens all the time.

So, as far as all that goes, please remember that you accused me of talking crap. Well, that's not the case and as I said, I can support everything I said. So please remember, that while I may have an attitude about this, I wasn't the first to bring an attitude to the table. You might want to cut me a break here. Don't poke me in the eye and say I have a bad attitude when I get pissed. ;)

Publishing an article doesn't mean anything in this argument and I never said it did. My knowledge didn't change one bit by publishing the article. There are certainly folks out there with more knowledge than me, certainly including the SR20 engine.

Hm.....
i feel bad now...sounded like i started world war 3....
just take it easy guys.... :)

I think I am gonna wait till JWT brings out the roller rocker type cams too....
the car is still pretty new.... don't wanna do anything that could have a chance fxxxing up the engine...

well...i can always do the header first...
hope that gain is enough for me to sit back for a while and wait till the new cams come out

Originally posted by pche059
Hm.....
i feel bad now...sounded like i started world war 3....

Nah.

Originally posted by pche059
well...i can always do the header first...
hope that gain is enough for me to sit back for a while and wait till the new cams come out

A HS header is the bang for the buck performance leader.

Yeah P10DET im sorry, I did accuse you of talking crap to begin with.
I just have a problem with people who come along and offer little tangable proof for what is nothing more that thier own opions.
And my reading of your post gave me that opion. ;)

I admitt I Dont know much about the SR20 engine, But I still feel that only a 10% gain from any cam is not very much. This would mean the SR20 head was already operating at its maximum flow levels from the factory, (which must be very poor) or the valve gear is on the extremly weak side. In which case BAD on Nissan, and from my experiance that sounds rather out of the ordinary for a Nissan engine, who have a repuation for building VERY strong engines. But theres an exception to every rule, and I will take your word for it.


You dont need to grind significant amounts of a base circle if your increaseing the lift. And since the cam operates through a rocker, this amplifies the amount of movment from the cam lobe, so you only need to remove a VERY small amount of material from the base circle to get a noticable raise in lift. I would have thought the amount of material removed on a mild street cam would be within the limits of Nissans design.
Did the expert you talked to about this mention actual examples and talk form experiance with mild street regrinds in an SR20? or was it only a theory, or experiance with wild race regrinds? (which would require much more material removed from the base circle, and cause problems.)

Kelford is a well known company, and does test all thier products.
Im sure thier not going to sell a product that will cause Valve train faliure, we have some very good Consumer protection laws here in NZ, and Manufactors have to take note of them, or it can get very expensive for them.


pche059, No WW III, I'll leave that up to Mr Bush, its just a very lively debate. :)
I suggest you copy what P10DET said about the base cicrle and send it to Kelford and see what they say. If they say they've taken this into account, or that no its wrong here why, then go get the cams and enjoy the hp boost. You have the consumers institute to back you up in the unlikly event you have problems.
But if they try and brush it off, or make up some PR crap excuses then dont get the cams. Find some billits and a profile you like and get it ground. :D

Originally posted by Moppie
Yeah P10DET im sorry, I did accuse you of talking crap to begin with.
I just have a problem with people who come along and offer little tangable proof for what is nothing more that thier own opions.


In that we see eye to eye and I applaud you! There are a lot of people around who have nothing more to offer than an opinion based upon something they heard 3rd hand or worse.

Originally posted by Moppie
You dont need to grind significant amounts of a base circle if your increaseing the lift. And since the cam operates through a rocker, this amplifies the amount of movment from the cam lobe


Hmmm. Tomorrow I will pull out the specs from the FSM. That will be interesting. I'm about to go to bed now.

Originally posted by Moppie
Did the expert you talked to about this mention actual examples and talk form experiance with mild street regrinds in an SR20? or was it only a theory, or experiance with wild race regrinds? (which would require much more material removed from the base circle, and cause problems.)

I don't know the full spectrum of his experience with regrinds, but I know he was involved with dyno tests of reground "street" cams that really sucked, despite huge hp promises. I'll try to find his message about this tomorrow as well.

Peace it is then. :D
What name to you apear under in SCC? Ill go find one tomorrow after my exam and have read of your articles. :D

Originally posted by Moppie
Peace it is then. :D

I'll drink to that. :)

Originally posted by Moppie
What name to you apear under in SCC? Ill go find one tomorrow after my exam and have read of your articles. :D

George Roffe

I've only had my first article published. In fact, I just got my copy of the magazine yesterday, so you won't find it on the news stand yet. It's in the December issue and is a tech article detailing how to swap a Bluebird SSS SR20DET into a P10 G20 (Primera). I've also got a few cool sidebars on some go-fast stuff for my DET.

Aww that soooo sweet....glad to see you guy could come to a truse.

OK I'll change my original comment. I'll never put a set of regrinds in an SR20DE...and I'll give VERY careful thought to putting a set in any other engine. :p

New cams, ground on new billets are better, and more expensive.

But regrinds are ok, hard welding the lobes with stellite on original cams is perfectly acceptable. By building the material up on the lobes first and then re-grinding them creates a newly profiled (ramp, duration) cam with the orginal geometry (base circle). A lot of motorsports divisions utilize this method of regrinding cams. I believe that stellite welding a cam actually is more durable than the stock billet, the stellite material is supposedly a harder, denser surface. This is the method that any reputable cam re-grinder utilizes to create new profiles on usable older cams.

Any accomplished engine builder's want to chime in?


-808Infiniti

Problem is most garage monkeys you go to will just do it the old barber shop method..."a little off the top" and that's it. If say Sunbelt was to try and sell me regrinds and they said they used all the methods you mentioned I'd be inclined to try them out. However there are too many garages/companies that will just whip something off and take your money than put some thought or science into it.

Originally posted by 808Infiniti
But regrinds are ok, hard welding the lobes with stellite on original cams is perfectly acceptable. By building the material up on the lobes first and then re-grinding them creates a newly profiled (ramp, duration) cam with the orginal geometry (base circle). A lot of motorsports divisions utilize this method of regrinding cams. I believe that stellite welding a cam actually is more durable than the stock billet, the stellite material is supposedly a harder, denser surface. This is the method that any reputable cam re-grinder utilizes to create new profiles on usable older cams.

Any accomplished engine builder's want to chime in?


-808Infiniti Hey, I had forgotten all about that. Back when I worked in a machine shop, we used to use a eutectic, spray-on, welding method for building up components that were undersized like shaft bearing journals etc.. It consisted of pre-heating the component (often while rotating in a lathe) and then a combination gas torch/spraygun was used to weld more material on. You could then machine and grind the components to the right size.

I am having my SRi (130 Hp) SR20DE engine upgraded to GT Primera spec on Tuesday. The parts consist of a new intake cam, exhaust manifold, down pipe, back box and a GT mid section. I will be getting the car dyno tested after I have the bits fitted so I wil let you know what gains i make and if it feels any faster.

Originally posted by Neil82
I am having my SRi (130 Hp) SR20DE engine upgraded to GT Primera spec on Tuesday. The parts consist of a new intake cam, exhaust manifold, down pipe, back box and a GT mid section. I will be getting the car dyno tested after I have the bits fitted so I wil let you know what gains i make and if it feels any faster. Excellent, that's exactly what we need to find out. If you have part numbers for the bits would you please post them? - so we can price them here in NZ.

Hey guys

Yes we are awear of this.We have found that around .040" is an exceptable amount to grind these cams without unduely loading the valve train.This amount to grind these cams without unduely loading the valve train.This the skid type rocker.

so .....

It means Kelford came through!!! :D

They are clearly aware of the problems that P10DET mentioned, (also showing that hes right :D ) and that they have worked out how much you can grind off the base circle with out causing problems.
And when they created the profile they made sure the amount that needs to be ground off is below the problem causing amount, as only a small change in the base circle is needed to achieve noticable gains, (also showing that im right :D )

What a great debate, leading to us all learning something. Im rather impressed, and P10DET thanks for getting me into it. :cool:

(I did notice at the end they mention the skidtype Rocker, did they say anything about the roller rocker? (which they use on the race car,))

He's probably relying on the hydrolic lifters to take up the slack there.

Welp, if anyone decides to get them make sure you get before and after dyno plots. It should be interesting.

I still think the cams should be hard welded first for the following reasons:

1) keep valve train geometry in stock form

2) durability is better for the cam and valvetrain

3) you can grind a more aggressive cam with better ramping

4) cost shouldn't be prohibitive

5) Kelford cams should know better........ If they are aware of the limitations of altering the base circle, they should hard weld the cams first to avoid this situation.

Just my opinion......

808Infiniti

Originally posted by 808Infiniti

5) Kelford cams should know better........ If they are aware of the limitations of altering the base circle, they should hard weld the cams first to avoid this situation.


Kelford cams do know better. ;)
Thats why in thier reply they mention the limited grinding of the base circle.
I believe there have been problems with Hard welding the lobes, namely if the welding isnt done to a high standard it can fail.
I think there's also a cost issue, which is one reason people choose a regrind over a billit, if the hard welding push's the cost up, and billits are avliable then the point of getting a regrind is lost.