…and Islam is the religion of peace?!?

Minister beaten after clashing with Muslims on his TV show
By Jonathan Petre
Last updated at 4:39 PM on 15th March 2009
A Christian minister who has had heated arguments with Muslims on his TV Gospel show has been brutally attacked by three men who ripped off his cross and warned: ‘If you go back to the studio, we’ll break your legs.’
The Reverend Noble Samuel was driving to the studio when a car pulled over in front of him. A man got out and came over to ask him directions in Urdu.
Mr Samuel, based at Heston United Reformed Church, West London, said: ‘He put his hand into my window, which was half open, and grabbed my hair and opened the door.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1162039/Minister-beaten-clashing-Muslims-TV-show.html

The Muslims I know or have worked with are in essence peaceful. The Islamic radical extremist and fundamentalists that perpetrate these bad acts or hate crimes add new meaning to that religion and have grossly distorted it. They give the others within that religion a bad name. Wahhabi and Takfeeri Muslims are a prime example.

I agree Bob, I have some excellent Muslim friends at work, who are fine family orientated people. We rarely discuss religion or politics, but during the election, one of them was boasting that he was voting for Obama, so I asked him why? He said that he thought Obama was really a Muslim at heart and would do more for the Muslims people than the other candidate. I did not argue with him, in fact all I could do was agree! :sly:

Not all Muslims are terrorists, but it seems that all terrorist are Muslim! What good is it for a person to gain the whole world & forfeit their own life? I hope that one of these days, Allah will run out of virgins, so all the terror & human sacrifices can come to an end! :grinyes:

Hang on, let's be fair. I'm not defending Muslim terrorists, but Tim McVeigh, the Unabomber, then the radicals back in the 70's, like the Weathermen, SDS, etc.?

How about the IRA? What about the Basque separatist movement?

Granted, the Muslims are the most rabid and plentiful, but not the only ones.

Hang on, let's be fair. I'm not defending Muslim terrorists, but Tim McVeigh, the Unabomber, then the radicals back in the 70's, like the Weathermen, SDS, etc.?

How about the IRA? What about the Basque separatist movement?

Granted, the Muslims are the most rabid and plentiful, but not the only ones.Fair enough, lets give credit where credit is due! :evillol:

Hang on, let's be fair. I'm not defending Muslim terrorists, but Tim McVeigh, the Unabomber, then the radicals back in the 70's, like the Weathermen, SDS, etc.?
How about the IRA? What about the Basque separatist movement?
Granted, the Muslims are the most rabid and plentiful, but not the only ones.
NONE of those hold a candle to the islamic nutjobs! Their holy book specifically directs the devout to destroy the infidels.

NONE of those hold a candle to the islamic nutjobs! Their holy book specifically directs the devout to destroy the infidels.

could you point to the verse?

could you point to the verse?

http://www.world-destiny.org/upteachofislam.htm

I am not a student of that book, but it has some thoughts there. :dunno:

could you point to the verse?

O believers! Take not infidels for friends rather than believers. Would
you furnish God with clear right to punish you? 4:143

The male shall have the portion of two females. 4:175

And if you have become unclean, then purify yourselves. But if you
are sick, or on a journey, of if one of you come from the place of
retirement, of if you have touched women, and you find no water,
then take clean sand and rub your faces and you hands with it. 5:9

O Believers! Take not the Jews or Christians as friends. They are
but one another's friends. If any one of you takes them for his
friends, he surely is one of them! 5:56

Of all men you will certainly find the Jews, and those who join other
gods with God, to be the most intense in hatred of those who believe;
and you shall certainly find those to be nearest in affection to them
who say, We are Christians.' This, because some of them are priests
and monks, and because they are free from pride. 5:85

Fight then against them until strife be at an end, and the religion be all
of it God's. 8:40
This is just a smattering of verses from their holy book. Now I am sure there are some who are less devout....and prefer civilization over living in caves and other squaller...that don't adhear to all of those teachings, but, none the less, that kind of stuff is taught in their holy book.

I hope that one of these days, Allah will run out of virgins, so all the terror & human sacrifices can come to an end! :grinyes:

Yeah Bo we joke about that all the time here. Actually it is not 72 virgins they will meet in paradise but a 72 year old virgin. :rofl:


Here are some more to add to the list. Can't vouch for the accuracy. However, when taken at face value it shocks you to see so much hatred being preached in a so called "Holy Book". :shakehead




"It is the same whether or not you forwarn them [the unbelievers], they will have no faith" (2:6).

"God will mock them and keep them long in sin, blundering blindly along" (2:15).

A fire "whose fuel is men and stones" awaits them (2:24).

They will be "rewarded with disgrace in this world and with grievous punishment on the Day of Resurrection" (2:85).

"God's curse be upon the infidels!" (2:89).

"They have incurred God's most inexorable wrath. An ignominious punishment awaits [them]" (2:90).

"God is the enemy of the unbelievers" (2:98).

"The unbelievers among the People of the Book [Christians and Jews], and the pagans, resent that any blessing should have been sent down to you from your Lord" (2:105).

"They shall be held up to shame in this world and sternly punished in the hereafter" (2:114).

"Those to whom We [God] have given the Book, and who read it as it ought to be read, truly believe in it; those that deny it shall assuredly be lost" (2:122).

"[We] shall let them live awhile, and then shall drag them to the scourge of the Fire. Evil shall be their fate" (2:126).

"The East and the West are God's. He guides whom He will to a straight path" (2:142).

"Do not say that those slain in the cause of God are dead. They are alive, but you are not aware of them" (2:154).

"But the infidels who die unbelievers shall incur the curse of God, the angels, and all men. Under it they shall remain for ever; their punishment shall not be lightened, nor shall they be reprieved" (2:162).

Link to Source (http://www.truthdig.com/images/diguploads/verses.html)

ignoring the issues involved in translating arabic into english, i don't see anything to do with destroying non muslims, or anything that doesn't have a similar counterpart in the bible.
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The monkey really IS drunk?

"Make war upon such of those to whom the Scriptures have been given as believe not in God, or in the last day, and who forbid not that which God and His Apostle have forbidden, and who profess not the profession of the truth, until they pay tribute out of hand, and they be humbled. The Jews say, 'Ezra (Ozair) is a son of God'; and the Christians say, 'The Messiah is a son of God'. Such the sayings in their mouths! They resemble the sayings of the Infidels of old! God do battle with them! How are they misguided!..He it is who hath sent His Apostle with the Guidance and a religion of the truth, that He may make it victorious over every other religion, albeit they who assign partners to God be averse from it." (Sura 9:29-33).

"O Prophet! make war on the infidels and hypocrites, and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their abode! and wretched the passage to it!" (Sura 66:9).

anything that doesn't have a similar counterpart in the bible.

:confused:

What Bible do you read? Do you have blinders on? You might want to take off your blinders off. Show me! You asked others to put up. What is fair is fair.

most passages in the koran that deals with fighting non believers (or whatever you want to call then) come from the part that talks about jihad; that being a reaction to persecution. It isn't that the koran is full of passages teaching them to fight others but that there is one section that talks of actions against constant persecution/repression.
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Were we persecuting them when they destroyed the WTC?

most passages in the koran that deals with fighting non believers (or whatever you want to call then) come from the part that talks about jihad; that being a reaction to persecution. It isn't that the koran is full of passages teaching them to fight others but that there is one section that talks of actions against constant persecution/repression.

The truth of the matter is they oppress themselves. And you reap what you sow. You should see the profiles of these jihadists that get captured in Iraq or Afghanistan. I've seen the reports. :eek:

Still waiting for the similarities in the Bible or any mention about waging jihad (holy war). :wink:

sorry for brief previos posts; i was browsing from my phone and didn't have full access.

a link (http://www.scribd.com/doc/9653/Does-the-Quran-Say-to-Kill-the-Infidel-Islam-and-Terrorism) I wanted to post.

first of all, the attack on the twin towers can not be taken as an example of islam because as said before, an act of extremists/fundementalism is not indicitive of the religion.

secondly, because I missed it before.

If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, "You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord." When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through. Zechariah 13:3

You must destroy all the nations the LORD your God hands over to you. Show them no mercy and do not worship their gods. If you do, they will trap you. Deuteronomy 7:16


Likewise, you wives should be subordinate to your husbands so that, even if some disobey the word, they may be won over without a word by their wives' conduct when they observe your reverent and chaste behavior. Peter 3:1-2


When the Lord has pity on Jacob and again chooses Israel and settles them on their own soil, the aliens will join them and be counted with the house of Jacob. The house of Israel will take them and bring them along to its place, and possess them as male and female slaves on the Lord's soil, making captives of its captors and ruling over its oppressors. Isaiah 14:1-2


The LORD then gave these further instructions to Moses: 'Tell the people of Israel to keep my Sabbath day, for the Sabbath is a sign of the covenant between me and you forever. It helps you to remember that I am the LORD, who makes you holy. Yes, keep the Sabbath day, for it is holy. Anyone who desecrates it must die; anyone who works on that day will be cut off from the community. Work six days only, but the seventh day must be a day of total rest. I repeat: Because the LORD considers it a holy day, anyone who works on the Sabbath must be put to death.' Exodus 31:12-15


Whoever spoils his son will bind up his wounds, and will suffer heartache at every cry. An unbroken horse turns out stubborn, and an unchecked son turns out headstrong. Pamper a child, and he will terrorize you; play with him, and he will grieve you. Do not laugh with him, or you will have sorrow with him, and in the end you will gnash your teeth. Give him no freedom in his youth, and do not ignore his errors. Bow down his neck in his youth, and beat his sides while he is young, or else he will become stubborn and disobey you, and you will have sorrow of soul from him. Discipline your son and make his yoke heavy, so that you may not be offended by his shamelessness. Sirach 30:7-13


Then Jehoiada made a covenant between the LORD and the king and the people that they would be the LORD's people. He also made a covenant between the king and the people. And all the people of the land went over to the temple of Baal and tore it down. They demolished the altars and smashed the idols to pieces, and they killed Mattan the priest of Baal in front of the altars. Jehoiada the priest stationed guards at the Temple of the LORD. Kings 11:17-18


But as for these enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and slaughter them in my presence. Luke 19:27


Far be it from us to desert the law and the ordinances. We will not obey the king's words by turning aside from our religion to the right hand or to the left." When he had finished speaking these words, a Jew came forward in the sight of all to offer sacrifice on the altar in Modein, according to the king's command. When Mattathias saw it, he burned with zeal and his heart was stirred. He gave vent to righteous anger; he ran and killed him on the altar. Maccabees 2:21-24


If anyone rebels against your orders and does not obey every command you give him, he shall be put to death. Joshua 1:18

The truth of the matter is they oppress themselves. And you reap what you sow.


That is also very true; that those who look for something will often find it.
I know it is a very tired argument but it is also a true one that context is key when taking into account a snippet of religious text.

There are Islamic publications that are banned in the UK (by Mosques) because in their translations and quoting, they deliberately mis-present the intention of the pasages. They leave out the qualifying/defining second verse or go with the most extreme translation. If you speak another language, especially if it is a non romanic one, you'll know how hard it is sometimes to find an exact translation of some words and terms.

As part of my martial arts training/teaching, I have to work from Chinese a lot and at times, there is no translation in English that matches the original. One example I can give is that in Chinese, there is a phrase, "centipede moves mountain" but in order to explain it, takes a good couple of sentences to do so. That is also ignoring the context of the phrase.

By the same token, I have come across some translation of things that just don't match what I know it to be because I know the original language.

In the case of the Quraan, in the UK especially, it is taught in Arabic but the students are not neccessarily taught Arabic. An ex of mine was Muslim and while she could read the texts (as in make the sounds) she did not know fully know what translates into what. What she was taught was an approximate translation into her language and english of the original Arabic.

In the case of the Quraan, in the UK especially, it is taught in Arabic but the students are not neccessarily taught Arabic. An ex of mine was Muslim and while she could read the texts (as in make the sounds) she did not know fully know what translates into what. What she was taught was an approximate translation into her language and english of the original Arabic.
So...they believe in a religion that they know nothing about?? Hmmmm...yeah let's sympathize with them. They are playing with a full deck after all.

So...they believe in a religion that they know nothing about?? Hmmmm...yeah let's sympathize with them. They are playing with a full deck after all.



you are really good at reading what isn't there aren't you?
:rolleyes:

who said anything about sympathy?
who said they know nothing about it?

I am telling of how the Quraan is taught (in the UK to Engish speaking/Non Arabic speaking Muslims)and how some people can come up with certain extreme translations.

How many times has the Bible been translated?
How many differences are there between the different translations?
How close is the English translation to the original?

Seeing as you didn't learn your Christianity from the original language, how do you know what the original really says?

Okay...you want to defend nut-jobs that's fine with me.

I have indeed studied the scriptures. I have studied SEVERAL translations. I know how easy it is to take scripture out of context. Many old testament verses were intended in specific instances and are intended more as historic teachings. I knew you would be able to find what you wanted for your purposes.

I didn't ask whether or not you know the scriptures, I asked how many times it has been translated and how many differences there are between the translations and how one (not you specifically) can know how close the modern translations is to the original.


Okay...you want to defend nut-jobs that's fine with me.


are you calling all Muslims nut jobs?
if so, how is that not persecution?


Many old testament verses were intended in specific instances and are intended more as historic teachings. I knew you would be able to find what you wanted for your purposes.


just like many of the often quote verses in the Quraan are taken out of context to fit a purpose.

hypocrisy and double standards?

It is their "group" that is responsible for the VAST majority of the nonsense going on in the world today. It isn't the Baptists, the Methodists, the Anglicans, the Catholics, et al...strapping bombs to themselves and reaping havoc among the innocent people of the world. You in the UK may wish to ignore that, but as for me....I think I prefer to be safer than that.

It is their "group" that is responsible for the VAST majority of the nonsense going on in the world today. It isn't the Baptists, the Methodists, the Anglicans, the Catholics, et al...strapping bombs to themselves and reaping havoc among the innocent people of the world. You in the UK may wish to ignore that, but as for me....I think I prefer to be safer than that.

oh really?

I bet more crimes/acts of violence/terror are being committed in the world by non Muslims than that being committed by Muslims.

I wonder how many of those responsible for the economic troubles were Muslim?

China isn't Islamic.
Russia isn't Islamic.
North Korea isn't Islamic.
Zimbabwe (Robert Mugabe) isn't Islamic.

Some of the most issue laden countries in the world right now and these don't have much to do with Islam.

the most recent acts (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/7933990.stm) of violence/terror on UK soil.
nothing to do with Islam.



in case you missed it the first time;
are you calling all Musilms nut jobs?
if so, how is that not persecution?

Oh....we were talking about economic troubles?!? I thought we were talking about the PEACEFUL muslim nutjobs. My bad.

No really, DM, I think if you continue in this vein you lose a lot of credibility, dude.

NONE of those hold a candle to the islamic nutjobs! Their holy book specifically directs the devout to destroy the infidels.


Didn't a certain religion, which I am almost certain you practice, execute tens of thousands of people over the course of time?



Any religion has it's extremists. I can site reference after reference on Christian extremists, Catholic extremists, Hindu extremists. Does that make any one religion worse than the other?

Didn't a certain religion, which I am almost certain you practice, execute tens of thousands of people over the course of time?

What the hell religion would that be? tens of thousands?

Any religion has it's extremists. I can site reference after reference on Christian extremists, Catholic extremists, Hindu extremists. Does that make any one religion worse than the other?

They PALE in comparison to the muslim extremists.

Oh....we were talking about economic troubles?!? I thought we were talking about the PEACEFUL muslim nutjobs. My bad.

No really, DM, I think if you continue in this vein you lose a lot of credibility, dude.


oh excuse me for thinking that the potential collapse of the world's economy isn't as exciting as a few fundementalists making bombs of themselves.


What the hell religion would that be? tens of thousands?

what's the latest civilian death count in Iraq?


and because you missed/ignored it a second time:
are you calling all Musilms nut jobs?
if so, how is that not persecution?

let's not forget that claiming that someone's religion is the source of all the world's violence and troubles doesn't count as a fundementalist/extremist perspective.

again; hypocrisy and double standards.


That would be the Christian kingdoms worried about some conspiracy threatening their beliefs through magic and poison. This resulted in mass gendercide throughout Europe during the 14th and 15th centuries.

I guess this doesn't count though as it does not play into your modern day extremism.

and you don't need to go that far back; Hitler was Catholic.

oh excuse me for thinking that the potential collapse of the world's economy isn't as exciting as a few fundementalists making bombs of themselves.

Just keeping on topic. We weren't talking about economic woes.
what's the latest civilian death count in Iraq?
They aren't dead due to persecution by a particular religion. (unless you consider that perhaps the Islamic extremists brought it on themselves)
and because you missed/ignored it a second time:
are you calling all Musilms nut jobs?
if so, how is that not persecution?
A hell of a lot of them....yes.BUT...calling one a "nut-job" isn't my idea of persecution. It is called restraint. I can think of a lot of other terminology.

Just keeping on topic. We weren't talking about economic woes.

Fair enough; I took your earlier comment as encompassing all troubles, violent or otherwise.
My error.


They aren't dead due to persecution by a particular religion. (unless you consider that perhaps the Islamic extremists brought it on themselves)

but they are dead as a result of the US invasion.
Last time I checked, Iraq didn't start that act of violence and the US isn't Islamic.


A hell of a lot of them....yes.

this is just baseless hyperbole.
how many Muslims do you know?


BUT...calling one a "nut-job" isn't my idea of persecution. I can think of a lot of other terminology.
And you say I risk losing credibility?


Incidentally, this line of discussion makes me wonder how many deaths are caused in your own country due to the actions of fundementalist/extremist Christians?
As far as I can google, there have been more than a fair share of nut job Christians.

The US didn't go into Iraq because we are religious zealots. The US went into that country to rid it of a mad man who was killing his own people because HE was a religious zealot, and the fact that HE was dangerous to the region and the US. I think you are trying to mix apples and oranges.

What the hell religion would that be? tens of thousands?


That would be the Christian kingdoms worried about some conspiracy threatening their beliefs through magic and poison. This resulted in mass gendercide throughout Europe during the 14th and 15th centuries.

I guess this doesn't count though as it does not play into your modern day extremism.

The US didn't go into Iraq because we are religious zealots.

Some would argue that the Commander in Chief at the time was a religious zealot.

anyway,
you were the one who claimed most of the worlds woes were caused by Muslims and Islam.
I pointed to the US invasion and the subsequent troubles as one example where it is just not true.

Don't misunderstand me.
I didn't mean that example to be one of another religion (in particular Christianity) being the cause of the situation; just wanted a recent case where it wasn't caused by Islam.
Incidentally, the official reason for the invasion was the WMDs, a topic that has already been done to death here and needs no further discussion.

also, going back to my earlier post:

China isn't Islamic.
Russia isn't Islamic.
North Korea isn't Islamic.
Zimbabwe (Robert Mugabe) isn't Islamic/Muslim.

I am amazed at your desire to divert to other topics. I was only referring to the violence associated with this so-called religion of peace. What the hell does China, Russia, NKorea, Zimbabwe have to do with world wide terrorism (jihad)?

Why do they call it "common" sense when it is so uncommon?

I am amazed at your desire to divert to other topics. I was only referring to the violence associated with this so-called religion of peace. What the hell does China, Russia, NKorea, Zimbabwe have to do with world wide terrorism (jihad)?

because you claimed:

It is their "group" that is responsible for the VAST majority of the nonsense going on in the world today


Why do they call it "common" sense when it is so uncommon?

and again with the personal attacks.

What the *** does China, Russia, NKorea, Zimbabwe have to do with world wide terrorism (jihad)?


Yeah, I was wondering about that too. Man, this thread is a trip now but entertaining nonetheless. :uhoh:....:lol: A lot of straw man arguments? :dunno:

DM, what are you implying with the above countries?

straw man arguments?
Possibly.

The poster is trying to say that Islam is a violent religion but ignores that his own religion is equally violent and has an equally violent past. He says that passages from the Bible can be taken out of context for what-ever purpose while ignoring the fact that is what is done with the Quraan when people say it teaches violence.

As I said, hypocrisy and double standards.


In case I misunderstood you here, what did you mean by:

It is their "group" that is responsible for the VAST majority of the nonsense going on in the world today

What do you mean by nonsense?

Ahh, Drunken One, if you'll look at the top of the page you'll see...
"Re: They want the world to believe THEY are peaceful... "
THAT is the topic.
Again...Baptists aint doing no suicide bombing, nor are any other christians that I know of. Our presence in Iraq has absolutely NOTHING to do with the US being primarily a christian nation.

Again, I didn't mean the US in Iraq to be an example of Christianity being violent; more that it is a case of violence and trouble in a place that is not because of Islam since you claimed that the vast majority of it around the world is caused by Islam.

If your only point is that Islam is a violent religion then all I can say is that it is no more violent than Christianity.
By the same token, Islam is as peaceful as Christianity.

Perhaps my error is assuming that Christianity is supposed to be a peaceful religion as well.

In my mind, a Christian calling Islam violent is the same as a Muslim calling Christianity violent and both equate to pot calling the kettle black.
Fundementalism/extremism is not indicative of the religion.

Again...Baptists aint doing no suicide bombing, nor are any other christians that I know of.
Nor would they riot if someone posts a cartoon in a newspaper that they don't particularly like, and if you read the artical at the beginning of this thread....you won't see any of that crap either.

Fundementalism/extremism is not indicative of the religion.
Pretty close...


I'm done

Individuals are also not indicative of the religion.
If they were, then what of the numerous cases of child molestation by priests and/or bishops?
What of the numerous Christian cults?
Is evangelism typical of Christianity?
Are Mormons typical of Christianity?

Are you really judging 1.5 million people on the actions of a few hundred?

Is now a good time remind people that the Ku Klux Klan were/are "Christian"?

Incidentally, this line of discussion makes me wonder how many deaths are caused in your own country due to the actions of fundementalist/extremist Christians?


Citations, please.

Citations, please.

No, I really was wondering.


My initial thoughts were on the various death cults that claim to be Christian
i.e David Koresh's Branch Davidians (or whatever they ended up calling themselves), Temple of Love, Order of the Solar Temple and their ilk

and how much damage they do compared to other religious fundementalists/extremists.

Well, how many people have these cults killed, that causes you to wonder about it?

Cults are NOT = Christianity!

Well, how many people have these cults killed, that causes you to wonder about it?

well, I know that the People's temple has a death toll of about 900 way back when, Temple of Love 14, wiki gives 76 for waco, others, not so sure


Cults are NOT = Christianity!

but that's the point.
They would say they are/were Christians.

Cults are an extension of fundementalism/extremism.
They are the minority.
They do not represent the religion.

Well, how many people have these cults killed, that causes you to wonder about it?Do you mean how many people they went out and killed? Wouldn't think that it would very many considering that they mainly keep to themselves and quietly commit suicide.... that is for the ones that the government didn't go in there and kill them all. For the later, the causalities are mainly the cult members, but I guess it's possible a few government officials could have gotten paper cuts while signing all those death warrants.

I was talking about cost of lives in general.

The interesting one to me is the Aum Shinrikyo and the sarin poisoning in Tokyo.
Wiki cites his influences being Buddhism, Christianity and Hinduism.

I guess what missing here is the simple explanation that ALL organized religions require an “enemy” and are based on hatred. From the Mayan public displays of sacrificing their enemy's thru the excesses of the Spanish Inquisition and the horror of the Third Reich people have been motivated by hatred and continue to be so.

The Bible is no better than the Quran, they both embrace hatred and violence. Some quotes from the Bible http://www.godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/BibleViolence.htm

95. God displays his hospitality with the admonition: "The stranger that cometh nigh shall be put to death." 1:51

96. Two of Aaron's sons are killed by God for "offering strange fire before the Lord." 3:4

97. God repeats his order (see 1:51) to kill any strangers who happen to come near. 3:10

98. Once again (see 1:51 and 3:10) God tells his favorite people to kill any strangers that come near. 3:38

99. Don't touch or "go in to see when the holy things are covered." God kills people who touch or look at uncovered holy things. 4:15, 4:20

100. "And when the people complained, it displeased the Lord: and the Lord heard it." (He had his hearing aid on.) He then burns the complainers alive. That'll teach them. 11:1

101. "And wile the flesh [of the quails] was yet between their teeth, ere it was chewed, the wrath of the Lord was kindled against the people, and the Lord smote the people with a very great plague. "The Bible isn't too clear about what these poor folks did to upset God so much; all it says is that they had "lusted." 11:33

102. More plagues and pestilence sent by God. God repeats one of his favorite promises: "your carcasses shall fall in this wilderness." 14:12, 29, 14:32-37

103. God gives more instructions for the ritualistic killing of animals. The smell of burning flesh is "a sweet savour unto the Lord." 15:3, 13-14, 24

104. The Israelites find a man picking up sticks on the sabbath. God commands them to kill him by throwing rocks at him. 15:32-36

105. Because of a dispute between Korah and Moses, God makes the ground open up and it swallows Korah and his family. And then, just for the hell of it, God has a fire burn 250 men (friends of Korah?) to death. 16:20-49

106. After God killed Korah, his family, and 250 innocent bystanders, the people complained saying, "ye have killed the people of the Lord." So God, who doesn't take kindly to criticism, sends a plague on the people. And "they that died in the plague were 14,700." 16:41-50

107. God threatens to kill those who murmur. To which the people reply, "Behold, we die, we perish, we all perish .... Shall we be consumed with dying?" 17:12-13

108. According to this verse, it is wise to stay away from holy things and places -- like churches. God will kill you if you get too close. 18:3

109. God shows us how to make new friends by saying : "The stranger that cometh nigh shall be put to death." 18:7

110. God describes once again the procedure for ritualistic animal sacrifices. such rituals must be extremely important to God, since he makes their performance a "statute" and "covenant" forever. Why, then don't Bible-believers perform these sacrifices anymore? Don't they realize how God must miss the "sweet savour" of burning flesh? Don't they believe God when he says "forever"? 18:17-19

111. Don't get near holy things or "pollute" them. If you do, God will kill you. 18:22, 32

112. The purification of the unclean. These absurd rituals, cruel sacrifices, and unjust punishments are vitally important to God. He even insists that they are to be "a perpetual statute" to all humankind. 19:1-22

That is also very true; that those who look for something will often find it.

I know it is a very tired argument but it is also a true one that context is key when taking into account a snippet of religious text.

I don't think anyone will disagree with that but people do take things out of context regardless of what religious book or reference it is from. The key is not to take what it says at face value or literally and try to understand or analyze the material and meaning. Anyone can surf the Net to find to bad or hate in the Bible or Koran but it really doesn't mean much.

Case in point and probably one of the most controversial passages is Luke 19:27 out of the New Testament. This is the main one the atheists or non-believers use to advance their opposing viewpoint. The problem is Jesus spoke in parables and this specific part of Luke covers "The Parable of the 10 Minas". So to put it into context you have to read and understand Luke 19:11 through 19:27. Keep in mind this is just one example and I can dig up a lot more but I don't want it to sound like I am preaching to everyone. :grinno:


But as for these enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and slaughter them in my presence. Luke 19:27


Here is a good article from Time magazine going back to June 2005 which might shed some light on a jihadist in Iraq.


Inside the Mind of an Iraqi Suicide Bomber

Link to Article (http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1077288-6,00.html)

This is the main one the atheists or non-believers use to advance their opposing viewpoint.
I know a lot of atheists, and none of them point to individual passages (including the one you pointed out) as a way to express their viewpoint, but take the Bible (and other religious texts) as whole so that all the ridiculous claims inside can be used.

Why use a girl's finger as an example that she's fat when you can show them a picture of the whole fat ass package? :lol:

Why use a girl's finger as an example that she's fat when you can show them a picture of the whole fat ass package? :lol:

:lol:

Yeah it is ironic that you have to read the religious reference in order to controvert it.

BTW - The Atheists I know won't even touch a Bible let alone read it. :tongue:

They want the world to believe THEY are peaceful...many are, but then again :nono:
The only person who matters is Allah--and the only question he will ask me is 'How many infidels did you kill?' Link to Article (http://redirectingat.com/?id=252X400&url=http%3A//www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0%2C9171%2C1077288-6%2C00.html) (Thanks to Bob)
Now, that pretty well sums up the thoughts & belief of an Islamic terrorists and demonstrates what a twisted & evil greeting they expect after death! I suppose Allah could care less about how many women & children, or other innocent bystanders are killed & mutilated, as long as an infidel goes with them. :dunno:

These extremists and are very sick people, who do not deserve any legal recourse for their actions, other than a firing squad! I wonder how Allah would judge them if they were executed before killing any infidels, cast them into Hell where they belong. :devilsign:

Wow. I didn't even bother reading the whole post but WE did have this discussion before about taking the verses out of context.

When it is all said and done I think it's fair to say that much more violence comes from the islamic extremists than from any other group. The article that started this thread is a good example of the logic many of the nutcases follow.

When it is all said and done I think it's fair to say that much more violence comes from the islamic extremists than from any other group. The article that started this thread is a good example of the logic many of the nutcases follow.


Under the view of the media...sure. When you look for something bad, you're going to find bad and when you look for something good, you're going to find good.

When it is all said and done I think it's fair to say that much more violence comes from the islamic extremists than from any other group. The article that started this thread is a good example of the logic many of the nutcases follow.


Again, let's not forget history.

You don't really need to look into history to point out the fallacy in his statement.

Take a look at whatever news sites and just search for murders, rapes and other acts of violence and you'll find that acts commited by Islamic Extremists are the minority.

A cursory look at the BBC sites gives me at least 10 counts of murder on the first two pages committed by non muslims.

A cursory look at the BBC sites gives me at least 10 counts of murder on the first two pages committed by non muslims.

That's because living in the UK drives you nuts. :evillol: We just take our guns to the range and go blow stuff up.

you might be onto something there.
if we had guns, maybe we'd have less of an alcohol problem here.

You don't really need to look into history to point out the fallacy in his statement.

Take a look at whatever news sites and just search for murders, rapes and other acts of violence and you'll find that acts commited by Islamic Extremists are the minority.

A cursory look at the BBC sites gives me at least 10 counts of murder on the first two pages committed by non muslims.
Traditional penalties for theft in a Muslim society, would result in the removal of the fingers, or hands (depending on the severity of the crime) and penalties for rape would result in public stoning, or a hundred lashes and banishment for one year, or getting their nuts cut off. :iceslolan Maybe the UK & US could use some Muslim justice as a deterrent! Islam closes the door to the criminal who wants to commit these crimes. :wink:

Actual methods of capital punishment vary from place to place. In some Muslim countries, methods have included beheading, hanging, stoning, and firing squad. Executions are held publicly, to serve as warnings to would-be criminals.

Allah says; (The recompense of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and do mischief in the land is only that they shall be killed or crucified or their hands and their feet be cut off from opposite sides, or be exiled from the land. That is their disgrace in this world, and a great torment is theirs in the Hereafter) (Al-Ma’idah 5:33).

You don't really need to look into history to point out the fallacy in his statement.

Take a look at whatever news sites and just search for murders, rapes and other acts of violence and you'll find that acts commited by Islamic Extremists are the minority.

A cursory look at the BBC sites gives me at least 10 counts of murder on the first two pages committed by non muslims.
When it comes to extremist nut-jobs.....NOT your run of the mill city crimes.....Islamic anal pores lead the charge here. NO QUESTION! Not the Baptists! Not the Mormons! Not the Catholics! General murder on the streets are not the issue.

run off the mill city crimes?
So if I take your rationale, seeing as there are more run off the mill city crimes than Islamic extremist related crimes, then run off the mill city people are more criminalistic than Islamic extremists?
To use your words, run off the mill city people lead the charge in theft, rape and murder.

Okay.....I....will....type.....really....slow....
I used "run 'of' the mill" to indicate crimes that occur regardless of ANY religious leanings. A guy gets involved in "road rage" and blows somebody away. THAT would NOT constitute a crime where a religious passion was the cause. Crimes like that will happen anywhere and anytime.
Religious extremists DON'T fall into that category. Geesh! Don't you see ANY difference here?

Once again, Islamic extremists are not representative of the religion.

Extremists are a minority of a minorty.
Islam is peaceful.
Christianty is peaceful.
All religions are peaceful.
Extremists are often not.

Is that a difficult concept to grasp?

If all you're looking at are religious based crimes, where does attacking abortion clinics and their staff because you believe abortion is anti christian come into it all?
Where does the Westboro Baptist Chusrh come into it?
Where does the swindling ways of the tele-evangelicals come into it?

Is the crime only bad if it is violent?

Christianity has more than its fair share of nutjobs.

Damn, is this still going on? It has now deteriorated to the point that neither of you are adding anything of value, and simply repeating yourselves over and over. I suggest that you both accept that not everyone will agree on certain subjects and move on with your lives.

I suggest that you both accept that not everyone will agree on certain subjects and move on with your lives.

Fair enough.
I just happen to click onto AF during a tea-break.
I just don't like the idea that some people think that if they aren't challenged, they are right.

Cults are NOT = Christianity!

And i know a lot of Muslims who also say that "the extremists are NOT muslims"

I dont even know why drunken monkey was arguing with you guys, both religions were created by man, to me they're all garbage, so speaking with an unbiased perspective here's a few "Christian" problems.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Covenant,_The_Sword,_and_the_Arm_of_the_Lord


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_crusades

And i know a lot of Muslims who also say that "the extremists are NOT muslims"

I dont even know why drunken monkey was arguing with you guys, both religions were created by man, to me they're all garbage, so speaking with an unbiased perspective here's a few "Christian" problems.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Covenant,_The_Sword,_and_the_Arm_of_the_Lord


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_crusades


thegladhatter fails to recognize that the christian church is still probably the largest religion to commit such wide spread murder in history. Between the crusades and the witch hunts, the estimates are staggering.


The vast majority of people are bible illiterates. They only hear the palatable verses from the pulpit and blindly accept that the bible emanates goodness and is the word of God.

Any honest, thinking person reading through the bible cannot ignore the blatant misogyny and barbarity towards women. The eminent 'men of God" who wrote the bible were the product of patriarchal, tribal, violent, intolerant, monotheistic society. They reflect the ignorance and brutality of that society and at the dawn of a new millennium, fundamentalists insist that we should all abide by biblical law.

source (http://www.atheistfoundation.org.au/womenbible.htm)

The vast majority of people are bible illiterates. They only hear the palatable verses from the pulpit and blindly accept that the bible emanates goodness and is the word of God.

Any honest, thinking person reading through the bible cannot ignore the blatant misogyny and barbarity towards women. The eminent 'men of God" who wrote the bible were the product of patriarchal, tribal, violent, intolerant, monotheistic society. They reflect the ignorance and brutality of that society and at the dawn of a new millennium, fundamentalists insist that we should all abide by biblical law.
Please Read: :rolleyes: http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=935213

Please don't forget to quote your source of info when paraphrasing or cut/pasting! :nono: http://www.atheistfoundation.org.au/womenbible.htm

Please Read: :rolleyes: http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=935213

Please don't forget to quote your source of info when paraphrasing or cut/pasting! :nono: http://www.atheistfoundation.org.au/womenbible.htm



Didn't see the sticky, thanks for the PM.

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D97H2SJ00&show_article=1

Yet another bunch of peaceful muslims…..:rolleyes:


Official: US sea captain freed in swift firefight

Apr 12 02:09 PM US/Eastern
By ELIZABETH A. KENNEDY and LARA JAKES
Associated Press Writers

MOMBASA, Kenya (AP) - An American ship captain was freed unharmed Sunday in a swift firefight that killed three of the four Somali pirates who had been holding him for days in a lifeboat off the coast of Africa, the ship's owner said and a U.S. official said.
A senior U.S. intelligence official said a pirate who had been involved in negotiations to free Capt. Richard Phillips but who was not on the lifeboat was in custody.
Phillips, 53, of Underhill, Vermont, was safely transported to a Navy warship nearby.
Maersk Line Limited President and CEO John Reinhart said in a news release that the U.S. government informed the company around 1:30 p.m. EDT Sunday that Phillips had been rescued. Reinhart said the company called Phillips' wife, Andrea, to tell her the news.
The U.S. official was not authorized to discuss the matter publicly and spoke on condition of anonymity. A Pentagon spokesman had no immediate comment.
When Phillips' crew heard the news aboard their ship in the port of Mombasa, they placed an American flag over the rail of the top of the Maersk Alabama and whistled and pumped their fists in the air. Crew fired a bright red flare into the sky from the ship.
A government official and others in Somali with knowledge of the situation had reported hours earlier that negotiations for Phillips' release had broken down.

Interesting that the article mentions nothing about those pirates being Muslim.
Those come from the same line as the Barbary pirates T Jefferson fought against. (the ones who co-erced the U.S. to sign a document saying we were not a Christian nation!)
And to think Obama believes you can talk and negotiate with people like this!
He is in for a rude awakening!

Interesting that the article mentions nothing about those pirates being Muslim.

:lol:

That is true, however, it is implied since just about all Somali citizens are Sunni Muslim. We had many Somali workers when I was stationed in Saudi Arabia and they were all Muslim and went to the 5 prayers daily.

I don't believe the Somali pirates are doing their dirty deeds based on the Islamic religion or operating as Islamic extremists but of course you never know for sure. Obviously they are doing it for monetary gain like any other pirate(s).

They danged sure weren't baptists or catholics now were they? Actually I heard it discussed on tv that they were muslims. Whether that was their motivation or not...who knows. BUT their moral compass sure didn't prevent it.

:lol:

That is true, however, it is implied since just about all Somali citizens are Sunni Muslim. We had many Somali workers when I was stationed in Saudi Arabia and they were all Muslim and went to the 5 prayers daily.

I don't believe the Somali pirates are doing their dirty deeds based on the Islamic religion or operating as Islamic extremists but of course you never know for sure. Obviously they are doing it for monetary gain like any other pirate(s).

Of course I can't think of any non -Muslim nation having a problem with this kind of piracy.
Are there any documented Christians found guilty of this kind of piracy?
I can't think of any.
I have heard it's particularly bad near Somalia because there is no government to enforce law and order, so these pirates can get away with it there.

Of course I can't think of any non -Muslim nation having a problem with this kind of piracy.
Are there any documented Christians found guilty of this kind of piracy?
I can't think of any.


For point of reference; the police profile for a sexual offender is a 40 something male, educated and goes to church regularly.

The typical 40 something male who is educated and goes to church regularly is not a sexual offender.

Give me a sexual offender over these bastards any day! A drunk monkey can kick a pervert's ass! These maggots kill too many in clusters!
Geesh......no wonder the UK is becoming a muslim state!

For point of reference; the police profile for a sexual offender is a 40 something male, educated and goes to church regularly.

The typical 40 something male who is educated and goes to church regularly is not a sexual offender.

As gladhatter said, piracy/terrorism is a far cry from a sex offender.

And not every church goer is a Christian at heart!

Comparing apples to oranges.

Sex offender is a vague term and a lot of times the crime is not really that bad depending on what perspective you have. Plus there are females that are sex offenders like school teachers. If a female school teacher had sex with one of my sons before age 17 or as a minor I would give her a hug and give him an attaboy. :lol:

Comparing apples to oranges.

Sex offender is a vague term and a lot of times the crime is not really that bad depending on what perspective you have. Plus there are females that are sex offenders like school teachers. If a female school teacher had sex with one of my sons before age 17 or as a minor I would give her a hug and give him an attaboy. :lol:


:rofl:

I have been trying to stay out of this thread but I couldn't help but laugh about that.

It is true that we have a double-standard as far as how sex offenders are looked at between males and females. You hear of a female teacher having sex with a younger male student all the time now. Then, you see Jay Leno joking about it on the Tonight Show. Can you imagine if there was a bunch of male teachers out there having sex with 12 and 13 year old girl students?! That man would have his limbs chopped off and tossed into the lion's den before having his court appearance.

Comparing apples to oranges.

Sex offender is a vague term and a lot of times the crime is not really that bad depending on what perspective you have. Plus there are females that are sex offenders like school teachers. If a female school teacher had sex with one of my sons before age 17 or as a minor I would give her a hug and give him an attaboy. :lol:


The point is, no one should generalize anyone because of there beliefs. It's like me thinkin every Catholic Priest is a pervert or a Pastor/Bishop are always sleeping around with hookers (Jimmy Swaggart) or every white people are serial killers. Get the point?

Gladhatter, I suggest you go talk to some of Muslims and ask questions. Hatred is not going to get you anywhere. All my teachers are nothing but the most humble people that I have met along with my friends and family. We're all humans and we're not perfect in any way. We're infallible.

The point is, no one should generalize anyone because of there beliefs.

Still comparing apples to oranges and obviously there are a lot of one sided arguments in this thread.

I agree to a point but needless to say that is the perception of many Americans whether you like it or not. You can blame 9/11 or whatever. Since this is a free country we have freedom of expression/speech even though it may be based on bigotry or hatred. Acting out on that is another issue.

Here are some interesting reads. Check 'em out.


Source: Washington Post

Negative Perception Of Islam Increasing
Poll Numbers in U.S. Higher Than in 2001 (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/03/08/AR2006030802221.html)


Panel says Americans suffer from "Islamophobia," Muslims suffer from anti-Americanism (http://media.www.ramcigar.com/media/storage/paper366/news/2007/10/30/News/Panel.Says.Americans.Suffer.From.islamophobia.Musl ims.Suffer.From.AntiAmericanis-3064943.shtml)

Personally as most can see I'm tolerant and supportive of people of the Muslim faith and/or Middle Easterners because I have a good understanding of them based on actual life experiences. I lived and worked in Saudi Arabia for over 3 years and currently work with many Iraqis that came to the U.S. over the past two years. They work in our Counter-Insurgency program. Now what is interesting is their hatred of one another which is another issue. Sunni versus Shia and Shia versus Sunni. Explain that one. :sly:

Sunni versus Shia and Shia versus Sunni. Explain that one. :sly:

Only if you explain blacks vs whites/ Puerto Ricans vs Mexicans/ Chinese vs Japanese/ British vs Irish/ Protestants vs. Catholics....

I agree to a point but needless to say that is the perception of many Americans whether you like it or not. You can blame 9/11 or whatever. Since this is a free country we have freedom of expression/speech even though it may be based on bigotry or hatred. Acting out on that is another issue.


I don't blame Gladhatter or anyone that thinks like him just because they simply don't know about Islam. They get it from the media and the media always gives out bad perception on everyone. Or from anti-Islamic websites claiming that they're "knowledgeable" about the religion.

I don't understand how it's a one sided argument when I'm trying to show that there's double standards in almost everything. I mean seriously who is perfect?? When Islam is about peace, why assume that every Muslim is peaceful? We make mistakes and again we are human. Islam is a code of life we live by and not everyone lives by the code or law.

I agree to a point but needless to say that is the perception of many Americans whether you like it or not. You can blame 9/11 or whatever. :
We can't blame a date! We need to remember what happened on that date at the hands of islamic nutsacks! Remember WHO did it and do everything possible to ensure that it NEVER happens again! Far too many have already forgotten.

Only if you explain blacks vs whites/ Puerto Ricans vs Mexicans/ Chinese vs Japanese/ British vs Irish/ Protestants vs. Catholics....

:confused:

I was waiting for the race card to be pulled. :rolleyes: In my question to you which was fair I was not talking about people of different races. Using Iraq as an example the Sunnis and Shites are the same same race of people...i.e. Arab. Although they are of the same religion obviously they have major differences among each other including how Islam is supposed to work and continue to kill each other. I'm all ears.

Mellowboy, I guess we should assume that you are one of the more peaceful members of the Islamic faith and I just wish there were more like you!

BTW, what is the benefit of some Islamic terrorist sacrificing their own life to drive a car bomb into a group of innocent people? Do they get extra credit from "Allah" (The Moon God) in the hereafter for the more they kill; or does Allah only gives points for killing infidels and not necessarily innocent bystanders? In addition, do they suffer judgment (fewer virgins) for killing non-infidels? Sorry, but I just can't rationalize this type of religious extremism!

(fewer virgins) I've wondered about this, are these special virgins, so that after you screw them, you just push a button and turn them back into virgins? Regenerative vaginas maybe? Otherwise, what's the point after about a month none of them will be virgins anymore. Then you'll be stuck will all these bitches running around nagging the shit out of you for all eternity.

Hell, I guess it's better than spending an eternity, walking through a garden holding hands with some long haired dude named Jesus... :naughty:

:confused:

I was waiting for the race card to be pulled. :rolleyes: In my question to you which was fair I was not talking about people of different races. Using Iraq as an example the Sunnis and Shites are the same same race of people...i.e. Arab. Although they are of the same religion obviously they have major differences among each other including how Islam is supposed to work and continue to kill each other. I'm all ears.


You're obviously not getting it. Whether it's race or religion, both develops racism and hatred towards each other regardless if it's against there beliefs or not. It's human nature!! There's ppl in our community that wont talk to each other because of PROFESSION! Business people think they're better than doctors and vice versa.

:confused:

I was waiting for the race card to be pulled. :rolleyes: In my question to you which was fair I was not talking about people of different races. Using Iraq as an example the Sunnis and Shites are the same same race of people...i.e. Arab. Although they are of the same religion obviously they have major differences among each other including how Islam is supposed to work and continue to kill each other. I'm all ears.

Half of his post was about people who are the same race who deal with similar issues as Sunnis and Shiites, ie British vs Irish and more specifically Protestant Irish vs Catholic Irish.

Mellowboy, I guess we should assume that you are one of the more peaceful members of the Islamic faith and I just wish there were more like you!


There's millions that are peaceful. They're easier to find than the ones that you hear on tv.




BTW, what is the benefit of some Islamic terrorist sacrificing their own life to drive a car bomb into a group of innocent people? Do they get extra credit from "Allah" (The Moon God) in the hereafter for the more they kill; or does Allah only gives points for killing infidels and not necessarily innocent bystanders? In addition, do they suffer judgment (fewer virgins) for killing non-infidels? Sorry, but I just can't rationalize this type of religious extremism!

OK first it's forbidden to kill anyone that's innocent. Second, where did you ever get an idea that God is a "moon God." I'd like for you to show me where you get this idea from.

Malik :: Book 21 : Hadith 21.3.9

Yahya related to me from Malik from Nafi from Ibn Umar that the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, saw the corpse of a woman who had been slain in one of the raids, and he disapproved of it and forbade the killing of women and children.

Bukhari :: Book 2 :: Volume 23 :: Hadith 445

Narrated Thabit bin Ad-Dahhak:
The Prophet (p.b.u.h) said, "Whoever intentionally swears falsely by a religion other than Islam, then he is what he has said, (e.g. if he says, 'If such thing is not true then I am a Jew,' he is really a Jew). And whoever commits suicide with piece of iron will be punished with the same piece of iron in the Hell Fire." Narrated Jundab the Prophet said, "A man was inflicted with wounds and he committed suicide, and so Allah said: My slave has caused death on himself hurriedly, so I forbid Paradise for him."


Bukhari :: Book 2 :: Volume 23 :: Hadith 446

Narrated Abu Huraira-:
The Prophet said, "He who commits suicide by throttling shall keep on throttling himself in the Hell Fire (forever) and he who commits suicide by stabbing himself shall keep on stabbing himself in the Hell-Fire."
Bukhari :: Book 8 :: Volume 73 :: Hadith 73

Narrated Thabit bin Ad-Dahhak:
(who was one of the companions who gave the pledge of allegiance to the Prophet underneath the tree (Al-Hudaibiya)) Allah's Apostle said, "Whoever swears by a religion other than Islam (i.e. if somebody swears by saying that he is a non-Muslim e.g., a Jew or a Christian, etc.) in case he is telling a lie, he is really so if his oath is false, and a person is not bound to fulfill a vow about a thing which he does not possess. And if somebody commits suicide with anything in this world, he will be tortured with that very thing on the Day of Resurrection; And if somebody curses a believer, then his sin will be as if he murdered him; And whoever accuses a believer of Kufr (disbelief), then it is as if he killed him."


On the authority of Jundub ibn Abdullah (may Allah be pleased with him), who said that the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said: “There was amongst those before you a man who had a wound. He was in [such] anguish that he took a knife and made with it a cut in his hand, and the blood did not cease to flow till he died. Allah the Almighty said: ‘My servant has himself forestalled Me; I have forbidden him Paradise.’”

It was related by al-Bukhari. (Hadith Qudsi 28)



Surah Al-Kahf verse 74-"Then they both proceeded, till they met a boy, he (Khidr) killed him. Mûsa (Moses) said: "Have you killed an innocent person who had killed none? Verily, you have committed a thing "Nukr" (a great Munkar - prohibited, evil, dreadful thing)!"




Surah Al-Nisa verse 29-30-"O you who believe! Eat not up your property among yourselves unjustly except it be a trade amongst you, by mutual consent. And do not kill yourselves (nor kill one another). Surely, Allâh is Most Merciful to you.[] (29) And whoever commits that through aggression and injustice, We shall cast him into the Fire, and that is easy for Allâh."


Surah Al-Maeda verse 32- "Because of that We ordained for the Children of Israel that if anyone killed a person not in retaliation of murder, or (and) to spread mischief in the land - it would be as if he killed all mankind, and if anyone saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of all mankind. And indeed, there came to them Our Messengers with clear proofs, evidences, and signs, even then after that many of them continued to exceed the limits (e.g. by doing oppression unjustly and exceeding beyond the limits set by Allâh by committing the major sins) in the land!"




etc....

You're obviously not getting it. Whether it's race or religion, both develops racism and hatred towards each other regardless if it's against there beliefs or not. It's human nature!! There's ppl in our community that wont talk to each other because of PROFESSION! Business people think they're better than doctors and vice versa.

Obviously it is human nature and has been going on for thousands of years. Actually I do get but we are talking about the extremists that use religion as a scape goat or excuse but that makes for bad publicity. But again lets not compare apples to oranges. This thread is starting to get ridiculous.

I don't understand how it's a one sided argument when I'm trying to show that there's double standards in almost everything. I mean seriously who is perfect?? When Islam is about peace, why assume that every Muslim is peaceful? We make mistakes and again we are human. Islam is a code of life we live by and not everyone lives by the code or law.


That is a lie. If it was true those "Muslim" nations in the Middle east wouldn't be trying to annihilate Israel and calling the U.S. the "Great Satan"

Comparing apples to oranges.

Sex offender is a vague term and a lot of times the crime is not really that bad depending on what perspective you have. Plus there are females that are sex offenders like school teachers. If a female school teacher had sex with one of my sons before age 17 or as a minor I would give her a hug and give him an attaboy. :lol:

I expected higher standards from you Bnaylor!

That is a lie. If it was true those "Muslim" nations in the Middle east wouldn't be trying to annihilate Israel and calling the U.S. the "Great Satan"

No it's not lie. Orthodox Jews are against Israel also, what do you have to say about them? There's no "true Muslim" nations without a caliph. US is already probably the most hated country worldwide, not just middle east.

I expected higher standards from you Bnaylor!

Moot issue for me since my children are already grown up (21 y.o. and older) and on their own. So I really don't have to worry about it and it was just a hypothetical situation.

However, I do have much higher standards than my Saudi friends who think that marrying and impregnating a 12-13 year old girl is fine with them. It is done every day over there. Not to mention being able to have up to 4 wives.

Second, where did you ever get an idea that God is a "moon God." I'd like for you to show me where you get this idea from.Just Goggle "Allah the Moon-God" you will find many; here is one: http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/moongod.htm

Dr. W. Montgomery Watt, who was Professor of Arabic and Islamic Studies at Edinburgh University and Visiting Professor of Islamic studies at College de France, Georgetown University, and the University of Toronto, has done extensive work on the pre-Islamic concept of Allah.

He concludes:
"In recent years I have become increasingly convinced that for an adequate understanding of the career of Muhammad and the origins of Islam great importance must be attached to the existence in Mecca of belief in Allah as a "high god." In a sense this is a form of paganism, but it is so different from paganism as commonly understood that it deserves separate treatment" (William Montgomery Watt, Muhammad's Mecca, p. vii. Also see his article, "Belief in a High God in Pre-Islamic Mecca", Journal of Semitic Studies, Vol. 16, 1971, pp. 35-40).


Caesar Farah in his book on Islam concludes his discussion of the pre-Islamic meaning of Allah by saying:
"There is no reason, therefore, to accept the idea that Allah passed to the Muslims from the Christians and Jews" (Islam: Beliefs and Observations, New York, Barrons, 1987, p. 28).

According to Middle East scholar E.M. Wherry, whose translation of the Quran is still used today, in pre-Islamic times Allah-worship, as well as the worship of Ba-al, were both astral religions in that they involved the worship of the sun, the moon, and the stars (A Comprehensive Commentary on the Quran, Osnabruck: Otto Zeller Verlag, 1973, p. 36).
:evillol:

Not to mention being able to have up to 4 wives.
That's further proof that they are off their beans!!! Plus it explains why they are so willing to strap dynomite to themselves and blow stuff up!!

No it's not lie. Orthodox Jews are against Israel also, what do you have to say about them? There's no "true Muslim" nations without a caliph. US is already probably the most hated country worldwide, not just middle east.

Orthodox Jews are not strapping bombs to themselves, killing people and trying to annihilate Israel.

How is it that Muslim sympathizers cannot see how The Muslim religion and doctrine warps the mind and thinking of those who adhere to it, to the point of killing innocent people?:disappoin

How is it that Muslim sympathizers cannot see how The Muslim religion and doctrine warps the mind and thinking of those who adhere to it, to the point of killing innocent people?:disappoin
It's no different than Christianity, or pretty much any other religion. The whole point of religion is to warp the mind and thinking to a certain set of beliefs. It was designed to control the masses, and has worked well... much easier than trying to control people that think for themselves. The funny thing is that everyone can see how utterly ridiculous every other religion is other than their own.

something interesting to read (http://www.fas.org/irp/eprint/rightwing.pdf) in light of this discussion.

Orthodox Jews are not strapping bombs to themselves, killing people and trying to annihilate Israel.

How is it that Muslim sympathizers cannot see how The Muslim religion and doctrine warps the mind and thinking of those who adhere to it, to the point of killing innocent people?:disappoin


Right. :rolleyes: Again, suicide is forbidden in Islam and killilng innocent ppl is forbidden. Did you not read my previous post? Just because you see some that strap bombs unto themselves doesn't represent anything in Islam. You guys are really stubborn!Thats why when we protest againist Israel's onslaught, Muslims and Jewish people come together. I have videos if you wanna see it. IF anyone here is in Tucson, we build up the wall in the UofA campus to protest.

Just Goggle "Allah the Moon-God" you will find many; here is one: http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/moongod.htm

:evillol:

Yeah well they're wrong. Would go to a mechanic for your health check up?? :)

And to provide a similar sort of discussion about the origins of Christianity:

link. (http://www.venusproject.com/ecs/true_origins_christianity.html)

Quite a link there DM, and what a twisted sense of reality exposed! Just goes to show you, some people can make an apple look like an orange!

We all are well aware and familiar with the luxurious life style and the power of the patriarch religious mullahs representing the three (3) Abrahamic, Adam and Eve based religions: Judaism, Christianity and Islam. These religious mullahs have been claiming that we, the humankind must sacrifice and are here only to Glorify God and obey HIM, - - which in reality, it means to Glorify the barbaric elitist mullahs and obey them as the self-proclaimed ambassadors and voices of the ultimate holy criminal, the murdering, sadistic, chauvinist, racist, sexist, anti-reason, blood thirsty masculine MALE GOD. - - A God so confused who fools but assures, - Jews, Christians and Muslims -, all, the very same nonexistence promised heaven above, only if they convert each-other to their faith, even if they had to kill them to go where it does not exist!!!

Right. :rolleyes: Again, suicide is forbidden in Islam and killilng innocent ppl is forbidden. Did you not read my previous post? Just because you see some that strap bombs unto themselves doesn't represent anything in Islam. You guys are really stubborn!Thats why when we protest againist Israel's onslaught, Muslims and Jewish people come together. I have videos if you wanna see it. IF anyone here is in Tucson, we build up the wall in the UofA campus to protest.

Well according to the terrorists it DOES represent Islam. And there are a lot of them.
Prominent Muslim leaders never seem to condemn these actions either!

It's no different than Christianity, or pretty much any other religion. The whole point of religion is to warp the mind and thinking to a certain set of beliefs. It was designed to control the masses, and has worked well... much easier than trying to control people that think for themselves. The funny thing is that everyone can see how utterly ridiculous every other religion is other than their own.

Do you think Atheism or non-belief isn't also a "mindset" to control the masses?
Everyone will hold to some set of beliefs. Their beliefs will either be constructive or destructive.
I choose the first one.

Do you think Atheism or non-belief isn't also a "mindset" to control the masses?
Everyone will hold to some set of beliefs. Their beliefs will either be constructive or destructive.
I choose the first one.I'm having a hard time understanding, please explain to me how studying science, history and religious texts to come to your own conclusions can be interpreted as someone being controlled.

Well according to the terrorists it DOES represent Islam. And there are a lot of them.
Prominent Muslim leaders never seem to condemn these actions either!

Why should we? We're not held responsible for other people's actions. Just because they say they "represent" Islam doesn't mean it's true or they're right. Compare them to the majority of the Muslims and you will find the majority against them. Nothing in the Qur'an backs up there actions, in fact they're called hypocrites or criminals like it mentioned in the Qur'an. You need to get out there and talk to Muslims in person and reading help also.

Prominent Muslim leaders never seem to condemn these actions either!
EXACTLTY!!!!!
Where's the muslim leadership when these "non-muslim" actions take place? It seems the only ones condeming them are the ones that might get their asses beat or they want something from the U.S.

. .You need to get out there and talk to Muslims in person and reading help also.
No thanks....no negotiating with terrorists.....and I read just fine, thank you very much. (I think for myself too....try it sometime)

No thanks....no negotiating with terrorists.....and I read just fine, thank you very much. (I think for myself too....try it sometime)


Right. Now I'm a terrorist. Thanks.:rolleyes:

This is getting a little uncivil folks. There are also several posts that are claiming fact when its simply mislead perception. Keep it factual and discussion-like or I'll close it. I don't mind a good argument, but it must be adult, respectful, and based on provable fact or I'll close it faster than you can say "obama."

To call a Muslim a terrorist is like saying that all Christians are IRA members, or that all Jews kill Muslims, or that all Adventists are vegetarian.

And if you want to nitpick things... add up all the lives that have been taken in the name of MAINSTREAM Christianity throughout history during times like the Crusades, the Dark Ages, Slavery, American colonialism, and European Imperialism. Then compare it to the miniscule amount of lives taken by the relatively recent extremist terrorists and I think you'll find that Christians have that tally beat by a few billion.

You think you're right, just like your Christian ancestors thought it was right to kill Africans, Native Americans, and Siberians for the Glory of God.

Terrorists don't have to be Muslim, and not all Muslims are terrorists. The tiny percentage of the Muslim population that is terrorist-related is probably about the same percentage of current whack-job Christians who blow up abortion clinics, beat gays to death with baseball bats, and go on TV asking for money while they cheat on their wives.

If I were a Muslim, I'd be pretty proud of my people for exercising as much restraint as we have given the current prejudice heaped on them. After all, when Christians want oil in the name of Christ, we just invade oil-rich countries, overthrow their government, and put a christian-based government in its place. That's how we came to live in America when European Catholics came over and raped Native Americans. That's how every country in Africa became an enslaved European colony. That's how Europe quadrupled its size during the Crusades. That's how Europe took over South America and Britain took Australia. That (along with the promise of economic prosperity) was Hitler's motivation for killing Jews.

So let's not compare 2 millenia of violent Christian oppression in almost every country in the world to a couple decades of a tiny Muslim pin-pricks, shall we?

Jeez :rolleyes:

This is getting a little uncivil folks. There are also several posts that are claiming fact when its simply mislead perception. Keep it factual and discussion-like or I'll close it. I don't mind a good argument, but it must be adult, respectful, and based on provable fact or I'll close it faster than you can say "obama."

To call a Muslim a terrorist is like saying that all Christians are IRA members, or that all Jews kill Muslims, or that all Adventists are vegetarian.

And if you want to nitpick things... add up all the lives that have been taken in the name of MAINSTREAM Christianity throughout history during times like the Crusades, the Dark Ages, Slavery, American colonialism, and European Imperialism. Then compare it to the miniscule amount of lives taken by the relatively recent extremist terrorists and I think you'll find that Christians have that tally beat by a few billion.

You think you're right, just like your Christian ancestors thought it was right to kill Africans, Native Americans, and Siberians for the Glory of God.

Terrorists don't have to be Muslim, and not all Muslims are terrorists. The tiny percentage of the Muslim population that is terrorist-related is probably about the same percentage of current whack-job Christians who blow up abortion clinics, beat gays to death with baseball bats, and go on TV asking for money while they cheat on their wives.

If I were a Muslim, I'd be pretty proud of my people for exercising as much restraint as we have given the current prejudice heaped on them. After all, when Christians want oil in the name of Christ, we just invade oil-rich countries, overthrow their government, and put a christian-based government in its place. That's how we came to live in America when European Catholics came over and raped Native Americans. That's how every country in Africa became an enslaved European colony. That's how Europe quadrupled its size during the Crusades. That's how Europe took over South America and Britain took Australia. That (along with the promise of economic prosperity) was Hitler's motivation for killing Jews.

So let's not compare 2 millenia of violent Christian oppression in almost every country in the world to a couple decades of a tiny Muslim pin-pricks, shall we?

Jeez :rolleyes:

I've seen a lot worse at this forum over the past several years. Lets not blow things out of proportion. Heated debates are normal here due to people's beliefs and ideology. If people can't take the heat or put up a reasonable factual non one sided argument or have problems getting their feelings hurt then get out while you can. Also, we do not restrict free speech within reason at this particular forum.

And before any thread is closed at the Politics, Current Events forum I would highly recommending submitting it to Mod Corner for review with no unilateral action. :nono:......:wink:

Yeah... did you notice how I threatened to close it, then I jumped in the deep end? :)

I'm such a hyprcite :D

Yeah... did you notice how I threatened to close it, then I jumped in the deep end? :)

I'm such a hyprcite :D

Yeah I noticed that. :uhoh: No big deal. :wink:

I do agree we need to tone down the rhetoric so please lets keep it civil or the Moderating Staff may have to take action on it.

Prominent Muslim leaders never seem to condemn these actions either!

link 1 (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1554177.stm)
link 2 (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/west_midlands/5111092.stm)
link 3 (http://www.expressindia.com/news/fullstory.php?newsid=50802#compstory)
link 4 (http://www.presstv.com/detail.aspx?id=82592&sectionid=351020601)

Yeah... did you notice how I threatened to close it, then I jumped in the deep end? :smile:

I'm such a hyprcite :biggrin:

Welcome to an open forum where everyone is welcome to post their opinion, or "rhetoric", whatever it may be. Censorship is not the cure, let the discussion continue without interference. :2cents:

I'm such a hyprcite :DThen you've come to the right place, this thread is a magnet for hypocrites and bigots. :lol:

link 1 (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1554177.stm)
link 2 (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/west_midlands/5111092.stm)
link 3 (http://www.expressindia.com/news/fullstory.php?newsid=50802#compstory)
link 4 (http://www.presstv.com/detail.aspx?id=82592&sectionid=351020601)
Do all those links go to what YOU would call "prominent" muslim leaders? I think not. They are ALL in the UK! Until the UK is REALLY a muslim state I don't think they count.

If I was living in downtown Mecca, I think my rhetoric would have to be adjusted. Likewise for these guys.

It is easy to put out a press release condemning the acts of Islamic extremists/terrorists or give lip service for obvious reasons since saying bad things about Islam from the believers viewpoint is technically blasphemy but I don't think it will change the negative publicity or perception in the U.S. One of the biggest Islamic Centers in the U.S. put out the following, however, it has a dubious past and may still be on a U.S. Government watch list or at least some members of it. So what does it really mean. :rolleyes: In the meantime the U.S. would be foolish to let its guard down since we are still in two wars which have no end in sight for now.


Dar Al Hijrah Denounces Terrorism

The Dar Al Hijrah Islamic Center states clearly that those who commit acts of terror, murder and cruelty in the name of Islam are not only destroying innocent lives, but are also betraying the values of the faith they claim to represent. No injustice done to Muslims can ever justify the massacre of innocent people, and no act of terror will ever serve the cause of Islam. We repudiate and dissociate ourselves from any Muslim group or individual who commits such brutal and un-Islamic acts. We refuse to allow our faith to be held hostage by the criminal actions of a tiny minority acting outside the teachings of both the Quran and the Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him.

Link to Article (http://daralhijrah.wordpress.com/dar-al-hijrah-denounces-terrorism/)


Source: Washington Post
Imam From Va. Mosque Now Thought to Have Aided Al-Qaeda

Link to Article (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/02/26/AR2008022603267.html?hpid=topnews)

Do all those links go to what YOU would call "prominent" muslim leaders? I think not. They are ALL in the UK!

So the combined heads of the Mosques/Islamic community of the UK don't count for anything.

Doen that mean that Bishops outside of the Vatican don't count for anything either?

So the combined heads of the Mosques/Islamic community of the UK don't count for anything.

Doen that mean that Bishops outside of the Vatican don't count for anything either?
Please....Please tell me you aren't serious! You don't. see a difference here!?!?
Talk about apples and oranges!! Am I debating with a door knob?!

I think the last few posts serve to show the diversity within the Muslim community, which is not unlike the diversity in the Christian community. Let me know if you need specific examples if the following are not sufficient: Sunni and Shiite; Catholic(Roman and Eastern Orthodox), Lutheran, Mormon, Baptist and Anglican.

There ARE regional differences, both in beliefs, morals, outlooks, and behaviors. You can NOT categorize an entire people (no matter what people they are) with one simple statement.

The point is...
Muslims will NOT talk their homies down in a non-muslim state. Catholic leadership hasn't been in a position where their defense of their religion would render them an ass beating. Sunni/shiite.....catholic/protestant is irrelevant.

The point is...
Muslims will NOT talk their homies down in a non-muslim state. Catholic leadership hasn't been in a position where their defense of their religion would render them an ass beating. Sunni/shiite.....catholic/protestant is irrelevant.

First of all, are you using the word "homies" as a derogative term for an individual of a certain race? If you are, then may I suggest you re-read the user guidelines before you earn yourself a ban, and keep a civil tongue in your head. Remember: you are attacking ideas, not the person or people putting out those ideas.

Now. I have spoken to Muslims that said they believed that certain actions by Muslim radicals were wrong, so I therefore disagree heartily about your first sentence above.

Your second sentence is also incorrect. Many Catholic leaders have been killed for their beliefs and defense of same. Check your history, or have a read of the Bible. It's all in there brother.

Please explain to me why you believe that referencing different sects of the same religion is irrelevant to this discussion. In case you missed it, I was using that as an example of why a group of people cannot be simply described with one statement.

Here, let me state it in simpler terms so you'll get it. Let's take the statement:

All Muslims are terrorists bent on killing others.


There, that should get to the heart of the argument. The simple fact that we are here proves that not all Muslims are terrorists bent on killing others. Why? Because as has been so aptly put earlier, there are numerous examples of Muslim terrorists using bombs to blow themselves up, taking 20 or 30 people with them. The worldwide population is just over 6 billion (link (http://www.google.com/search?q=population+of+the+world&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a)) The worldwide Muslim population is estimated at 1.5 Billion (link (http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html))

Now if all Muslims were terrorists bent on killing others, then we can postulate that those 1.5 billion souls could easily take out, say, 10 people each. That makes 15 billion people, which is more than the entire population of the world. The simple fact that we are here discussing this proves that not ALL Muslims are terrorists bent on killing others and Q.E.D. that you cannot classify any group with a single statement.

Your turn.

Again....the point I was making dealt with the proximity of the muslims condemming the actions of the extremists. I wouldn't be stupid enough to go to Mecca and talk a lot of smack. They don't. Want a beat down any more than I do. That's all I was saying.

Again....the point I was making dealt with the proximity of the muslims condemming the actions of the extremists. I wouldn't be stupid enough to go to Mecca and talk a lot of smack. They don't. Want a beat down any more than I do. That's all I was saying.


So now you're saying that Muslims won't go to Mecca and say that other Muslims are doing wrong? I thought you said that Muslims outside of their countries "don't talk smack" about it.

Please clarify.

So now you're saying that Muslims won't go to Mecca and say that other Muslims are doing wrong?
.
Do you think that in Mecca they would need to condemn them? I think they'd sing their praises. No need to condemn them on their own turf. In Mecca it would be me that would have to be careful. Talking smack. I'd get my ass stoned in that peaceful state.

OK, I understand what you're saying now, and agree that if you went to Mecca and started trash talking Islam it would be a bad situation. But wouldn't that situation be the same in many other cultures also? If I go to downtown Dublin and go to the wrong bar and talk trash I'll get my butt handed to me. By extension, it's pretty much the same thing almost everywhere in the world [with of course some exceptions].

I'm having a hard time understanding, please explain to me how studying science, history and religious texts to come to your own conclusions can be interpreted as someone being controlled.

Well, if you believe some of the lies taught in science history and religion, you will be under the control of those propagating those lies!
(global warming and environmentalism is one of the big lies to control the masses)

Why should we? We're not held responsible for other people's actions. Just because they say they "represent" Islam doesn't mean it's true or they're right. Compare them to the majority of the Muslims and you will find the majority against them. Nothing in the Qur'an backs up there actions, in fact they're called hypocrites or criminals like it mentioned in the Qur'an. You need to get out there and talk to Muslims in person and reading help also.

I as a Christian will condemn the likes of those such as Jim Jones, Eric Rudolph and Westboro Baptist Church. Their actions are wrong, inspired by evil, not God, they do NOT represent the Christian religion in their actions in any way.

Now, if you want credibility as a Muslim, condemn those Muslims who Kill and torture innocent people in the name of the Muslim religion.

I happen to believe Muslims are secretly happy with the Muslim terrorists for their terrorism against Christians and others!

link 1 (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1554177.stm)
link 2 (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/west_midlands/5111092.stm)
link 3 (http://www.expressindia.com/news/fullstory.php?newsid=50802#compstory)
link 4 (http://www.presstv.com/detail.aspx?id=82592&sectionid=351020601)

It was looking good until I read this in link three:


"But the 22 imams and scholars stopped short of condemning all suicide bombings, saying those that target occupying forces in countries such as Israel and Iraq are sometimes justified."

This is getting a little uncivil folks. There are also several posts that are claiming fact when its simply mislead perception. "
Curtis, you are guilty of doing the above in your post below.


And if you want to nitpick things... add up all the lives that have been taken in the name of MAINSTREAM Christianity throughout history during times like the Crusades, the Dark Ages, Slavery, American colonialism, and European Imperialism. Then compare it to the miniscule amount of lives taken by the relatively recent extremist terrorists and I think you'll find that Christians have that tally beat by a few billion.



Jeez :rolleyes:

This article caught my eye. Obviously the U.K. has some serious issues and it will probably get worse in the future. Thanks DM. :lol:

BTW - Don't ask us to help you guys out. We have enough of our own problems. You are on your own this time around. WWII is just a faded memory.



Source: BBC

'More Muslims radicalised' in UK

A higher proportion of British Muslims are radicalised than those in several other major western European nations, according to a US research body.

Muslims in the UK are more likely to see a conflict between being devout and living in modern society than in France, Germany and Spain, it found.

Thousands of people in 15 countries were questioned for a poll for the American Pew Research Center.

In Britain 902 residents took part in the survey in April and May.

Of British Muslims taking part in the poll, 77% said the rise of Islamic extremism worried them.

However, almost a quarter thought suicide bombings and other violence against civilian targets to defend Islam were justifiable - though among these some stated that this was rarely the case.

Andrew Kohut, director of the Pew Research Center, said: "British Muslims were the most radicalised."

The French Muslims were the most temperate, he said.

Link to Article (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/5111248.stm)

Just as I said....UK is becoming an -slamic state. As long as they turn a blind eye to it it will continue.

Is Chavez muslim?

“The United States empire is on its way down and it will be finished in the near future, inshallah," Chavez told reporters, ending the statement with the Arabic phrase for "God willing."

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,214709,00.html

It was looking good until I read this in link three:


"But the 22 imams and scholars stopped short of condemning all suicide bombings, saying those that target occupying forces in countries such as Israel and Iraq are sometimes justified."

Pretty much how your country seems to stand with torture.
"It's wrong but...."

I as a Christian will condemn the likes of those such as Jim Jones, Eric Rudolph and Westboro Baptist Church. Their actions are wrong, inspired by evil, not God, they do NOT represent the Christian religion in their actions in any way.

Now, if you want credibility as a Muslim, condemn those Muslims who Kill and torture innocent people in the name of the Muslim religion.

I happen to believe Muslims are secretly happy with the Muslim terrorists for their terrorism against Christians and others!

In your first sentence above, I agree that condemning those acts is proper; they were heinous.

But from what I know, Jim Jones thought he WAS a god, so I think insanity played a part.

Rudolph...is an idiot. You don't kill people to protest killing people. He WAS protesting that abortions were killing people, wasn't he?

And the Baptist church in question....they have no taste. You don't picket a funeral...what, are you protesting their death of someone that behaved as you perceive wrongly? Shouldn't you be protesting the ones that are still alive? Whatever.

All 3 of the folks/groups named above are nutjobs and/or extremists....which I take it was your point, just venting.


Now in your 2nd sentence I must say that it seems you are telling someone else how to act within their own religion, a concept I'm sure you would resist if the situation was reversed. Pointing your finger at someone who has different beliefs and telling them to act a certain way?

In your last, you are making a guess at what people are thinking, so it's pure speculation; you say you believe that is what they are thinking.....is this belief categorized as your opinion, or is it the type of belief as in your faith?


Remember that the participants of the Boston Tea Party were seen as terrorists by the British, and heroes by the future citizens of the US. Sometimes it's in your point of view. I recall that Islam teaches peace, until you are attacked; then it teaches to fight as best you can. [pardon me if I did not put it eloquently] While I don't agree with suicide bombings, perhaps that's the only way they have to fight back against what they perceive as an attack?

Pretty much how your country seems to stand with torture.
"It's wrong but...."

:shakehead

Thats a poor counter-argument DM. Worse than a straw man argument. Our country has come along ways since the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan started. Torture is not allowed and the U.S. military follows the Army Field manual which is being revised for all government agencies to follow like the CIA. I work with the Army's MOUT Counter-Insurgency program and know what training is conducted. No one is taught how to torture and the media blew a lot of it out of proportion. Ethics and morals classes are conducted before the troops deploy to the war zones. What is your definition of torture? What goes on in detention facilities is no better or worse than how you are treated in a civilian jail for a crime. At least we do treat our detainees humanely versus whopping their heads off with no trial/due process concluded with a summary execution. It is a two way street and obviously the Islamic extremists do not comply with the rules of warfare or the Geneva Convention.

Remember that the participants of the Boston Tea Party were seen as terrorists by the British, and heroes by the future citizens of the US. Sometimes it's in your point of view. I recall that Islam teaches peace, until you are attacked; then it teaches to fight as best you can. [pardon me if I did not put it eloquently] While I don't agree with suicide bombings, perhaps that's the only way they have to fight back against what they perceive as an attack?

That is no real comparison.
No one was killed in the FIRST Boston Tea Party.
(or any that are happening today.):smile:

Pretty much how your country seems to stand with torture.
"It's wrong but...."

The belief that the U.S. condones torture is a flat out lie!

Thats a poor counter-argument DM. Worse than a straw man argument.

First of all, I was talking about this (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/8003537.stm) and this (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/8006597.stm).

Secondly, I was using it as an example of how a person (or nation for that matter) can be against the principle of something and still see circumstances where it may be justified.

Thats a poor counter-argument DM. Worse than a straw man argument.

First of all, I was talking about this (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/8003537.stm) and this (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/8006597.stm).

Secondly, I was using it as an example of how a person (or nation for that matter) can be against the principle of something and still see circumstances where it may be justified.

But those charges of "torture" are a trumped up complete LIE!
You are pathetically ignorant if you can't see that.[/quote]

That is no real comparison.
No one was killed in the FIRST Boston Tea Party.
(or any that are happening today.):smile:

Sure there is. It's the perception of the people involved; whether or not people (or tea) was killed is part of it, but the basic underlying idea is that a group of people did something that the other group found heinous in order to strike back.

I guess you'll not be answering my other questions?

I guess you'll not be answering my other questions?I'm sure she'll answer them as soon as a religious or right wing talk show tells her what she thinks the answers should be. Until then, everything that those sources don't express are all lies, Lies, LIES! :icon16:


That is a lie. If it was true those "Muslim" nations in the Middle east wouldn't be trying to annihilate Israel and calling the U.S. the "Great Satan"

Well, if you believe some of the lies taught in science history and religion, you will be under the control of those propagating those lies!
(global warming and environmentalism is one of the big lies to control the masses)

The belief that the U.S. condones torture is a flat out lie!



But those charges of "torture" are a trumped up complete LIE!
You are pathetically ignorant if you can't see that.

And I thought I was going to have some actual debating going on.


Bummer.

Ir.



Now in your 2nd sentence I must say that it seems you are telling someone else how to act within their own religion, a concept I'm sure you would resist if the situation was reversed. Pointing your finger at someone who has different beliefs and telling them to act a certain way?Are you saying it is inappropriate to expect others to act in a way that respects others life, liberty and property?

In your last, you are making a guess at what people are thinking, so it's pure speculation; you say you believe that is what they are thinking.....is this belief categorized as your opinion, or is it the type of belief as in your faith? It is an educated guess based on their actions!


Remember that the participants of the Boston Tea Party were seen as terrorists by the British, and heroes by the future citizens of the US. Sometimes it's in your point of view. I recall that Islam teaches peace, until you are attacked; then it teaches to fight as best you can. [pardon me if I did not put it eloquently] While I don't agree with suicide bombings, perhaps that's the only way they have to fight back against what they perceive as an attack? Why don't they have a "Tea Party" protest, like many Americans do with no violence???? Also there is no "attack" that came before their bombings that wasn't first provoked by their deadly attacks. They are the FIRST aggressors!

I would be careful CL8. Not worth getting into any further discussion or argument over. :grinno: You don't want to get the atheists, non-believers, anti-Christians and the ones that believe the Islamic Extremists are justified in their actions all riled up and let this thread drag on. :rolleyes:

I have a question how many here that are religious and have attended church in the past or present have ever heard of the pastor, reverend or priest calling you to take up arms and use them against your enemies?

fredjacksonsan http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=5956899#post5956899)
Now in your 2nd sentence I must say that it seems you are telling someone else how to act within their own religion, a concept I'm sure you would resist if the situation was reversed. Pointing your finger at someone who has different beliefs and telling them to act a certain way?
/fredjacksonsan


Are you saying it is inappropriate to expect others to act in a way that respects others life, liberty and property?

No, I'm saying that you are trying to tell them how to act within their religion, just as I wrote.

Would you appreciate someone of another religion telling you that your beliefs were wrong, and then telling you how you should act in situations? I certainly think not.

I have a question how many here that are religious and have attended church in the past or present have ever heard of the pastor, reverend or priest calling you to take up arms and use them against your enemies?


Excellent question BNaylor!
I have been a member of at least 10 churches in 5 different states, CHRISTIAN churches, and not one had Any preacher preach to do harm to
your enemies, or the enemies of Christ!
( that's not counting churches I've visited and preacher in chapel at college, none of them have either!)

[b]

No, I'm saying that you are trying to tell them how to act within their religion, just as I wrote.

Would you appreciate someone of another religion telling you that your beliefs were wrong, and then telling you how you should act in situations? I certainly think not.

:thumbsdow FAIL!

The Muslims, tell us Christians we are wrong, and on our way to their hell because we don't worship Allah and bow down eight times a day to pray to him!

And frankly, it doesn't matter a hill of beans to me if they tell me I'm wrong, though it does matter when they try to kill me and my fellow Americans!

:thumbsdow FAIL!

The Muslims, tell us Christians we are wrong, and on our way to their hell because we don't worship Allah and bow down eight times a day to pray to him!

This is rich ground for commentary, but I'll be brief (apologies for not doing it the justice it deserves).

1) If so, then the Muslims and Christians are on even ground, each telling the other they are wrong and they're going to hell. Christians tell Muslims to embrace Christ or they'll go to hell, and Muslims tell Christians that the true word is in the Koran and they should adhere to it or go to hell.

2) Christians go to church generally on Sunday. Muslims choose to pray to God 8 times daily. It seems here your are inferring that praying to God more frequently is wrong. That is just what the followers of Islam believe.

3) Why can't everyone just get along? I mean it's the same God, after all. Since we were all created in infinite variety, might not God have created religion in infinite variety also?

3) Why can't everyone just get along? I mean it's the same God, after all. Since we were all created in infinite variety, might not God have created religion in infinite variety also?

No he didn't.
He is a God of truth about himself and he doesn't change!

No he didn't.
He is a God of truth about himself and he doesn't change!
On that basis, then I have a question.
If he is a God of Truth about himself and he doesn't change, then wouldn't you say that there was only one true religion. Since you claim that Fred's comment of "might not God have created religion in infinite variety also" be false. And if there is only one true religion wouldn't it be the most oldest religion which historically would be Judaism, not Muslim or Christanity which both came much later.

TS out

This is rich ground for commentary, but I'll be brief (apologies for not doing it the justice it deserves).

1) If so, then the Muslims and Christians are on even ground, each telling the other they are wrong and they're going to hell. Christians tell Muslims to embrace Christ or they'll go to hell, and Muslims tell Christians that the true word is in the Koran and they should adhere to it or go to hell.

2) Christians go to church generally on Sunday. Muslims choose to pray to God 8 times daily. It seems here your are inferring that praying to God more frequently is wrong. That is just what the followers of Islam believe.Choose which ever response you like best:

1. They should do as we say, not as we do!

2. If they can do it we can do it too!

3) Why can't everyone just get along? I mean it's the same God, after all. Since we were all created in infinite variety, might not God have created religion in infinite variety also?

Lies!

On that basis, then I have a question.
If he is a God of Truth about himself and he doesn't change, then wouldn't you say that there was only one true religion. Since you claim that Fred's comment of "might not God have created religion in infinite variety also" be false. And if there is only one true religion wouldn't it be the most oldest religion which historically would be Judaism, not Muslim or Christanity which both came much later.

TS outBlasphemy! God is super great he never changes, unless he wants to. If he wants to change, he can. Who do you think you are to question him?!

Correction, Judaism is the oldest biggest religion, but the true oldest regardless of size is Hinduism.

TS

On that basis, then I have a question.
If he is a God of Truth about himself and he doesn't change, then wouldn't you say that there was only one true religion.

TS out

Not really Dave. It is the other way around. According to the Muslims I know Islam is the best of the religions because it is the last (circa 500 AD) and takes into consideration the other majors religions before it. Even Jesus is a prophet. Thats what they used to tell me when trying to get me to convert. :uhoh:

BTW - Hey guys Muslim prayer is supposed to be 5 times per day. I've been invited into a mosque and in the open to pray with them. Interesting but bad on the knees and back. :lol:

Saw this and thought of y'all! (http://www.rawa.org/temp/runews/2007/12/26/husband-cut-off-wife-s-ears-nose-on-eid-day.html) Here we go folks. Another example of peaceful love and understanding.

Saw this and thought of y'all! (http://www.rawa.org/temp/runews/2007/12/26/husband-cut-off-wife-s-ears-nose-on-eid-day.html) Here we go folks. Another example of peaceful love and understanding.

And it's no coincidence it has happened in a Muslim dominated culture.

It is a lie that the Muslim religion is peaceful.

so what about this (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8381119.stm)?

on the one hand you have a case of a mentally disturbed individual.
on the other, you have systematic child abuse, abuse of power, corruption and conspiracy within an institution.

so what about this (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8381119.stm)?

on the one hand you have a case of a mentally disturbed individual.
on the other, you have systematic child abuse, abuse of power, corruption and conspiracy within an institution.

Obviously he was mentally disturbed. Do you not think the Islamic culture he was raised and influenced by was a major contributor?

The links below testify to the abuses in Muslim COUNTRIES and CULTURE
unlike your example which is only limited to certain Catholic priests and leaders in the church, NOT an entire Christian culture or Country.


http://www.islam-watch.org/Laina/Afghanistan-Model-for-Abuse-of-Women.htm

http://www.bootsnall.com/articles/08-08/women-islam-tales-from-the-road-islamic-countries.html

obviously you missed the part about the Catholic Church as a whole deciding that the image and reputation of the Church was more important than the wellfare of the children involved.

i.e: it was the institution that created a situation where it was ok to turn a blind eye to child abuse by its priests and bishops.

if it is the religious/cultural background of a person's country that determines these sort of things please have a look at this list (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_murderers_by_number_of_victims) and compare the number of christian countries compared to non-christian countries with respect to their serial killers and murderers.
what do those numbers tell you?

obviously you missed the part about the Catholic Church as a whole deciding that the image and reputation of the Church was more important than the wellfare of the children involved.No I didn't miss that point. Those actions are inexcusable,
but you don't have a part of the Catholic church preaching abuse against kids
like Muslim Mosques have in at least 10% of their Mosques (probably more than that) preaching jihad and killing Christians, Jews, and non-Muslims.

Did you notice this quote in one of those articles?
Does anyone say that about the "Christian" world?

Being a woman in most of the Muslim world is not lucky either,





i.e: it was the institution that created a situation where it was ok to turn a blind eye to child abuse by its priests and bishops.

if it is the religious/cultural background of a person's country that determines these sort of things please have a look at this list (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_murderers_by_number_of_victims) and compare the number of christian countries compared to non-christian countries with respect to their serial killers and murderers.
what do those numbers tell you?Those numbers and that list just tells me the compiler chose certain serial or spree killers to list. It is not exhaustive by any means.
Anyone can list more criminals in one nation than in another, it doesn't tell how the culture affected the minds of the criminals.

Furthermore, many European nations and even America is becoming more and more dominated by the Islamic way of thinking.
(Look at who the U.S. has as president now, so sympathetic to the Muslim mindset many think he IS one.)

it doesn't tell how the culture affected the minds of the criminals.

so why is it ok for you to come to the conclusion that the deranged guy in that news article carried out his actions due to his Islamic background?

It is inconceivable that any civilized person would defend these vomitous gobs of excrement! It speaks volumes about the defenders!

It is apparent to me that wife beating and child molestation are not necessarily linked to a certain religion - although the wife beating seems to be worse in Middle East countries. But can the wife beatings be attributed solely to Islam, or is there a cultural element here? If there are similar examples from Islamic households worldwide, THEN you can say Islam begets wife beating. But if not, then Middle Eastern culture begets wife beating.

It is inconceivable that any civilized person would defend these vomitous gobs of excrement!

i) who is defending the person in that article?

ii) just to be clear, who are you calling vomitous gobs of excrement?
People who abuse and mutilate their wives or Muslims?

so why is it ok for you to come to the conclusion that the deranged guy in that news article carried out his actions due to his Islamic background?

Re read the articles on these sites I posted before.

As I said, it shows pretty good evidence that there is a connection to Muslim beliefs and culture and abuse and demeaning of women.



http://www.islam-watch.org/Laina/Afg...e-of-Women.htm (http://redirectingat.com/?id=252X400&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.islam-watch.org%2FLaina%2FAfghanistan-Model-for-Abuse-of-Women.htm)

http://www.bootsnall.com/articles/08...countries.html (http://www.bootsnall.com/articles/08-08/women-islam-tales-from-the-road-islamic-countries.html)

I am not saying that the treatment of women is some Islamic countries isn't behind what it should be.
What I have issue with is this:

And it's no coincidence it has happened in a Muslim dominated culture.

It is a lie that the Muslim religion is peaceful.

you are implying that the man in that article carried out his mutilations because he is Muslim, not because he is deranged.


Let me put this another way.
What if I started a thread titled
They want the world to believe THEY are not conspiring child molesters
and then linked to the BBC article I did earlier?
If I follow your rationale and switch in a few words I get this:


And it's no coincidence it has happened in a Irish Catholic dominated culture.

It is a lie that the Catholic/Christian religion isn't paedophilic.


Would that be a fair summation; to imply that the child abuse that occured for 30+ years and was covered up was because they were Irish and Catholic instead of the simple fact that they were/are paedophiles?

Leave it to the asians to brutally attack someone and have them leave without a scratch

I am not saying that the treatment of women is some Islamic countries isn't behind what it should be.
What I have issue with is this:



you are implying that the man in that article carried out his mutilations because he is Muslim, not because he is deranged. Not because he is Muslim, but because the Muslim way of thinking and treating women had a large influence on him.


Let me put this another way.
What if I started a thread titled
They want the world to believe THEY are not conspiring child molesters
and then linked to the BBC article I did earlier?
If I follow your rationale and switch in a few words I get this:


And it's no coincidence it has happened in a Irish Catholic dominated culture.

It is a lie that the Catholic/Christian religion isn't paedophilic.


Would that be a fair summation; to imply that the child abuse that occured for 30+ years and was covered up was because they were Irish and Catholic instead of the simple fact that they were/are paedophiles?Do Irish/Catholic dominated countries and culture have a higher rate and reputation of child abuse than others like the Muslim dominated countries do of abuse of women?

Interesting concept:

Can Muslims Be Good Americans ?

This is very interesting! Every real American needs to
read it from start to finish.....and share it with anyone
who will read it.

(Maybe this is why our so-called American Muslims are so
quiet and not speaking out about any atrocities.)

Can a good Muslim be a good American?

This question was forwarded to a friend who worked in Saudi
Arabia for 20 years.

The following is his reply:

Theologically - no. . . . Because his allegiance is to
Allah, The moon God of Arabia .

Religiously - no. . . . Because no other religion is
accepted by His Allah except Islam
(Quran, 2:256) (Koran).

Scripturally - no. . . . Because his allegiance is to the
five Pillars of Islam and the Quran.

Geographically - no. . .Because his allegiance is to Mecca,
to which he turns in prayer five times a day.

Socially - no. . . . Because his allegiance to Islam
forbids him to make friends with Christians or Jews.

Politically - no. . . . Because he must submit to the
mullahs (spiritual leaders), who teach annihilation of
Israel and destruction of America , the great Satan.

Domestically - no. . . . Because he is instructed to marry
four women and beat and scourge his wife when she disobeys
him (Quran 4:34).

Intellectually - no. . . . Because he cannot accept the
American Constitution since it is based on Biblical
principles, and he believes the Bible to be corrupt.

Philosophically - no. . . . Because Islam, Muhammad, and
the Quran do not allow freedom of religion and expression.
Democracy and Islam cannot co-exist. Every Muslim government
is either dictatorial or autocratic.

Spiritually - no. . . . Because when we declare "one nation
under God," the Christian's God is loving and kind, while
Allah is NEVER referred to as Heavenly father, nor is he
ever called love in The Quran's 99 excellent names.

Therefore after much study and deliberation, perhaps we
should be very suspicious of ALL MUSLIMS in this country.
Are they the walking time bombs that all the previous
terrorists have turned out to be?

They obviously cannot be both "good" Muslims and good
Americans.

* * * Call it what you wish; it's simply the truth.

* * * The more who understand this, the better educated
they will be about the real enemy of our culture, and our
country.

Good info Thegladhatter.

Although I believe I know some Muslims who would probably be on the side of not being such good Muslims and are actually sympathetic to Christianity.

Gladhatter's above post is factually incorrect and utterly unreasonable. It cannot be taken as a judgement of any person.

If we were to use gladhatter's logic, then all Christians cannot be good Americans. Why?

Because the bible permits slavery, it forbids the consumption of pork and shellfish and instructs every good Christian to kill worshippers of a non-Christian god, destroy their towns and sow the remaining earth with salt.

Do good American Christians condone this kind of Biblical interpretation? Of course not.

There are many different interpretations of Islam and many different kinds of Muslims. Most do not follow a strict adherence to radical Islamic interpretations of the religion, just as most Christians are not radical.
In fact the largest Muslim nations generally have very few radical islamists in them, such as Indonesia, Bangladesh, India and Turkey. They are all stable democracies and Turkey is a secular, valued NATO ally.

FWIW most American Muslims are very moderate and share the same distaste to radical Islam as the rest of us do. They are usually very happy to be in the US because they are free from having radical Islamists tell them what to do all the time.... they are free to practise their religion in peace, just as American law permits them to.

If we were to use gladhatter's logic, then all Christians cannot be good Americans. Why?

Because the bible permits slavery, it forbids the consumption of pork and shellfish and instructs every good Christian to kill worshippers of a non-Christian god, destroy their towns and sow the remaining earth with salt.

Do good American Christians condone this kind of Biblical interpretation? Of course not.


Good effort MagicRat, but you are wrong in your interpretation of the bible,
and you didn't even site any bible verses to back up what you posted.:headshake

you are wrong in your interpretation of the bible,
e

<MagicRat weeps in his hands> You have just re-stated my point!

Yes, I chose controversial Biblical passages with differing opinions. That was my point.

The Bible is subject to a wide variety of interpretations and opinions..... which is one reason why there are dozens of different Christian sects...... just as there are many different Muslim sects. Like the Bible, the Koran is also subject todiffering interpretation, some harmful, some not. This was my point.

And because you disagree with my interpretation proves my point. Imo a discussion of your version of the correct interpretation is not relevant to my telling gladhatter how rediculous and hateful his post was. But if you want to pm me with info or links, that's fine.. :)

FWIW, here are some references.

Slavery:
Ephesians 6:5-6 (New International Version)

Slaves and Masters
5Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ. 6Obey them not only to win their favor when their eye is on you, but like slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from your heart.

And:

Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. You can will them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life... Lev. 25:44-46

http://www.biblestudy.org/basicart/the-bible-diet-1.html

During the pre-Christian era, it is a well-known fact that God forbade the Israelites to eat certain types of animal flesh. While the Israelites frequently disobeyed God's instructions, it was quite clear that God's law prohibited the consumption of pork, shellfish and other types of animal flesh. Therefore, if a person ate "unclean" food in Old Testament times, it was because they were choosing to disobey God's instructions, not because they felt they had a divine authorization to consume such meats.

The destroying the neighboring towns reference came from hours of Youtube religious opinion I was reviewing. For the life of me, I forget the biblical references...... and I don't have the time to review it all again :(

Not because he is Muslim, but because the Muslim way of thinking and treating women had a large influence on him.

Sorry for being stupid here but how is this not saying that he did what he did because he was Muslim?
Excuse the rhetoric but show me where in the Islamic way does it say it's ok for you scold the feet of your wife with boiling water and cut of her ears and nose if you suspect them of adultary.


Do Irish/Catholic dominated countries and culture have a higher rate and reputation of child abuse than others like the Muslim dominated countries do of abuse of women?

The short answer; yes.
Irish Catholic Church is notorious for rumours of covered up child abuse that has now been proven/confirmed.

* * * Call it what you wish; it's simply the truth.

* * * The more who understand this, the better educated
they will be about the real enemy of our culture, and our
country.

Unless you can contact and interview every single Muslim in the United States, there is no way you can call this "the truth." At all. AT ALL.

I can in no way respect anything you've said for the simple fact that you've allowed your bigotry and intolerance get in the way of basic reasoning and tried to submit someone's opinion as fact.

Additionally, as far as I'm concerned, our country is multi-cultural. That means we host and support a plethora of beliefs and cultures, including Judaism, Christianity, Buddhism and yes, even Islam.

But I guess the only one that warrants someone being called a true American is Christianity.

Anyway, I digress, the only thing I learned from this "interesting" information is that you are obviously a bigot against people who practice Islam. You can argue it all you want, but calling them the enemy of our culture is a sure sign of your own hatred. You know, there was once an infamous person who called a specific people the enemy of his people's culture - his name was Hitler. Think about that.

They are usually very happy to be in the US because they are free from having radical Islamists tell them what to do all the time.... they are free to practise their religion in peace, just as American law permits them to.
http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/7348/headdance.gif

Are they the walking time bombs that all the previous
terrorists have turned out to be? For a good example of a good Muslim "walking time bomb" who was once enjoying the freedom to practice his religion in America, Click Here (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/6532904/Fort-Hood-massacre-Gunman-linked-to-al-Qaeda-as-he-awakes-from-coma.html)! :newburn:BTW, President Barack Obama will have to personally sign the death warrant of Major Nidal Malik Hasan if he is convicted and sentenced to be executed for the Fort Hood massacre. (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/barackobama/6531599/Fort-Hood-massacre-Barack-Obama-would-have-to-sign-death-warrant.html)

http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/8854/yeswecan1530432i.jpg

I'm gona laugh if he doesn't sign off to kill the guy. The mystery will be solved

Islam’s World-Wide Threat:

Islam is not a religion, nor is it a cult. In its fullest form, it is a complete, total, 100% system of life. Islam has religious, legal, political, economic, social, and military components. The religious component is a facade for all other components.

Islamization begins when there are sufficient Muslims in a country to agitate for their so-called 'religious rights.'

When politically correct, tolerant, and culturally diverse societies agree to 'the reasonable' Muslim demands for their 'religious rights,' they also get the other components under the table.

Here's how it works. (percentages source CIA: The World Fact Book - 2007).

As long as the Muslim population remains around or under 2% in any given country, they will for the most part be regarded as a peace-loving minority, and not as a threat to other citizens. In fact, they may be featured in articles and films, stereotyped for their colorful uniqueness:

This is the case in:
United States -- Muslim 0.6%
Australia -- Muslim 1.5%
Canada -- Muslim 1.9%
China -- Muslim 1.8%
Italy -- Muslim 1.5%
Norway -- Muslim 1.8%

At 2% to 5%, they begin to proselytize from other ethnic minorities and disaffected groups, often with major recruiting from the jails and among street gangs. This is happening in:
Denmark -- Muslim 2%
Germany -- Muslim 3.7%
United Kingdom -- Muslim 2.7%
Spain -- Muslim 4%
Thailand -- Muslim 4.6%

From 5% on, they exercise an inordinate influence in proportion to their percentage of the population. For example, they will push for the introduction of halal (clean by Islamic standards) food, thereby securing food preparation jobs for Muslims. They will increase pressure on supermarket chains to feature halal on their shelves -- along with threats for failure to comply. This is occurring in:
France -- Muslim 8%
Philippines -- Muslim 5%
Sweden -- Muslim 5%
Switzerland -- Muslim 4.3%
The Netherlands -- Muslim 5.5%
Trinidad & Tobago -- Muslim 5.8%
At this point, they will work to get the ruling government to allow them to rule themselves (within their ghettos) under Sharia, the Islamic Law. The ultimate goal of Islamists is to establish Sharia law over the entire world.

When Muslims approach 10% of the population, they tend to increase lawlessness as a means of complaint about their conditions. In Paris we are already seeing car-burnings. Any non-Muslim action offends Islam and results in uprisings and threats, such as in Amsterdam, with opposition to Mohammed cartoons and films about Islam. Such tensions are seen daily, particularly in Muslim sections, in:
Guyana -- Muslim 10%
India -- Muslim 13.4%
Israel -- Muslim 16%
Kenya -- Muslim 10%
Russia -- Muslim 15%

After reaching 20%, nations can expect hair-trigger rioting, jihad militia formations, sporadic killings, and the burnings of Christian churches and Jewish synagogues, such as in:
Ethiopia -- Muslim 32.8%

At 40%, nations experience widespread massacres, chronic terror attacks, and ongoing militia warfare, such as in:
Bosnia -- Muslim 40%
Chad -- Muslim 53.1%
Lebanon -- Muslim 59.7%

From 60%, nations experience unfettered persecution of non-believers of all other religions (including non-conforming Muslims), sporadic ethnic cleansing (genocide), use of Sharia Law as a weapon, and Jizya, the tax placed on infidels, such as in:
Albania -- Muslim 70%
Malaysia -- Muslim 60.4%
Qatar -- Muslim 77.5%
Sudan -- Muslim 70%

After 80%, expect daily intimidation and violent jihad, some State-run ethnic cleansing, and even some genocide, as these nations drive out the infidels, and move toward 100% Muslim, such as has been experienced and in some ways is on-going in:
Bangladesh -- Muslim 83%
Egypt -- Muslim 90%
Gaza -- Muslim 98.7%
Indonesia -- Muslim 86.1%
Iran -- Muslim 98%
Iraq -- Muslim 97%
Jordan -- Muslim 92%
Morocco -- Muslim 98.7%
Pakistan -- Muslim 97%
Palestine -- Muslim 99%
Syria -- Muslim 90%
Tajikistan -- Muslim 90%
Turkey -- Muslim 99.8%
United Arab Emirates -- Muslim 96%

100% will usher in the peace of 'Dar-es-Salaam' -- the Islamic House of Peace. Here there's supposed to be peace, because everybody is a Muslim, the Madrasses are the only schools, and the Koran is the only word, such as in:
Afghanistan -- Muslim 100%
Saudi Arabia -- Muslim 100%
Somalia -- Muslim 100%
Yemen -- Muslim 100%

Unfortunately, peace in never achieved, as in these 100% states the most radical Muslims intimidate and spew hatred, and satisfy their blood lust by killing less radical Muslims, for a variety of reasons.

'Before I was nine I had learned the basic canon of Arab life. It was me against my brother; me and my brother against our father; my family against my cousins and the clan; the clan against the tribe; the tribe against the world, and all of us against the infidel.
-- Leon Uris, 'The Haj'

It is important to understand that in some countries, with well under 100% Muslim populations, such as France, the minority Muslim populations live in ghettos, within which they are 100% Muslim, and within which they live by Sharia Law. The national police do not even enter these ghettos. There are no national courts nor schools nor non-Muslim religious facilities. In such situations, Muslims do not integrate into the community at large. The children attend madrasses. They learn only the Koran. To even associate with an infidel is a crime punishable with death. Therefore, in some areas of certain nations, Muslim Imams and extremists exercise more power than the national average would indicate.

Today's 1.5 billion Muslims make up 22% of the world's population. But their birth rates dwarf the birth rates of Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, and Jews, and all other believers. Muslims will exceed 50% of the world's population by the end of this century.

Adapted from Dr. Peter Hammond's book: Slavery, Terrorism and Islam: The Historical Roots and Contemporary Threat

Excellent question BNaylor!
I have been a member of at least 10 churches in 5 different states, CHRISTIAN churches, and not one had Any preacher preach to do harm to
your enemies, or the enemies of Christ!
( that's not counting churches I've visited and preacher in chapel at college, none of them have either!)

Then those preachers are only preaching what they want.

Exodus 35:2
2 Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the LORD: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death.

Leviticus 24:16
16 And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him: as well the stranger, as he that is born in the land, when he blasphemeth the name of the Lord, shall be put to death.


If I am a impressionable person that is reading the bible, this is telling me to kill quite a few people because they don't have the same views as me, correct?

If I am a impressionable person that is reading the bible, this is telling me to kill quite a few people because they don't have the same views as me, correct?Thats the problem Kris, too many people don't think for themselves, nor do they understand the Bible. They are too impressionable.

When Christ came, he emphasized salvation is by FAITH not the LAW.
Remember he preached and taught forgiveness. Thats why you don't see groups of Christians putting to death sinners. Rather, they reach out to them in love to come to Jesus for forgiveness of sin.

Islam’s World-Wide Threat:

Islam is not a religion, nor is it a cult. In its fullest form, it is a complete, total, 100% system of life. Islam has religious, legal, political, economic, social, and military components. The religious component is a facade for all other components.

Islamization begins when there are sufficient Muslims in a country to agitate for their so-called 'religious rights.'

Cute analysis, but this is a gross over-simplification of the process of nation-building. Muslim nations are the way they are due to complex historical and political forces, and not just the existence of Islam.
While I agree with this statement of the end-product of Islam as we know it, this situation exists because there has not been a strong alternative presented in Islamic nations for the people to consider.

So Islam wants to take over the world? This is nothing new. Christianity wanted (and still wants) to do the same thing.

There is a reason why Europe, The Americas and many other parts of the world are Christian..... because Christian -European zealots fought and conquered these domains, slaughtering everyone who opposed them and substituted their own Christian methods of political and economic control.


The reason why the "Free World" is free is not due to Christinaity. If the radical Christians could have their way, Christian nations would be just as oppressive as the Muslim ones.
As I stated earlier, it is due to the centuries of struggle by secularists and moderate Christians to fight for a free and democratic secular society.

Islam is not the enemy. The enemy is extremist ideology, be it Islam, Communism, fascism or religion. The west will NEVER conquor Islam, and trying to do so is misguided. The key is to encourage moderate Islam to incorporate a western value system of freedom and a respect for individuality.

Cute analysis, but this is a gross over-simplification of the process of nation-building. Muslim nations are the way they are due to complex historical and political forces, and not just the existence of Islam.
While I agree with this statement of the end-product of Islam as we know it, this situation exists because there has not been a strong alternative presented in Islamic nations for the people to consider.

So Islam wants to take over the world? This is nothing new. Christianity wanted (and still wants) to do the same thing.

There is a reason why Europe, The Americas and many other parts of the world are Christian..... because Christian -European zealots fought and conquered these domains, slaughtering everyone who opposed them and substituted their own Christian methods of political and economic control. MagicRat, you have no documentation to back this up.
Take a look at the article on this site. The Christian "zealots" weren't slaughtering, but rather attempting to convert them (not force them) to a belief in Christ and Christian doctrine.

http://www.nebraskastudies.org/0400/frameset_reset.html?http://www.nebraskastudies.org/0400/stories/0401_0129.html

Remember too, a large part of Indian deaths was from diseases like smallpox they weren't immune to. NOT outright slaughter.


The reason why the "Free World" is free is not due to Christinaity. If the radical Christians could have their way, Christian nations would be just as oppressive as the Muslim ones. Site your evidence of this. America has been a "Judeo-Christian" country, and has NEVER had a history of abuse and oppression that Muslim countries have.
As I stated earlier, it is due to the centuries of struggle by secularists and moderate Christians to fight for a free and democratic secular society.

Islam is not the enemy. The enemy is extremist ideology, be it Islam, Communism, fascism or religion. The west will NEVER conquor Islam, and trying to do so is misguided. The key is to encourage moderate Islam to incorporate a western value system of freedom and a respect for individuality.You are right the west will never conquer Islam, but one day, Jesus Christ himself will.:)

MagicRat, you have no documentation to back this up.
Take a look at the article on this site. The Christian "zealots" weren't slaughtering, but rather attempting to convert them (not force them) to a belief in Christ and Christian doctrine.

http://www.nebraskastudies.org/0400/frameset_reset.html?http://www.nebraskastudies.org/0400/stories/0401_0129.html

Remember too, a large part of Indian deaths was from diseases like smallpox they weren't immune to. NOT outright slaughter.
You know, the victors write the history, often to their own advantage.
The native peoples were largely obliterated by the Europeans. The diseases were fortuitous uses of biological warfare; their existence was exploited by the Europeans as a way of removing the natives. If the Europeans had no ulterior motivations, they would not have occupied the lands of the dying natives.

The conquered peoples have a much different view than yours:
http://www.nasponline.org/publications/cq/cq328native.aspx
http://www.answers.com/topic/american-indian

Even Christian scholars recognize the religious-driven excesses and wrong-doings of some conquoring Eurpoeans:
http://newhousefoundation.org/subpage13.html

Much colonialism occured outside of the United States, where the abuses were often more excessive:
http://blog.aurorahistoryboutique.com/european-colonialism-in-south-america/
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/126237/colonialism/25892/Slave-trade

Other references or genocide:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_history_of_American_indigenous_peoples
http://theminaretonline.com/?p=1770

But to put this in an historical perspective, the Europeans did a fine job of slaughtering millions of their own people throughout history. The fate of native populations was not much different.
http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat0.htm#European


Site your evidence of this. America has been a "Judeo-Christian" country, and has NEVER had a history of abuse and oppression that Muslim countries have.
That statement is utterly false, unless you do not consider Africans and women to be people. Historical American oppression was as bad or worse than any Muslim nation today. Here are some examples, which were conducted by (as you say) a Judeo-Christian nation, with the cooperation of millions of 'good' Christians.

1. Slavery. For well over 100 years, European colonialists, and later, Americans, abused and oppressed hundreds of thousands of Africans. Slavery was American law for many decades. I don't see how one can possibly abuse and oppress people MORE than making them slaves.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_the_United_States

Even after slavery, many African-Americans were abused by segregationist policies and racist white attitudes. African - Americans only achieved full equality under the law within my lifetime.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Segregation_in_the_United_States

2.Oppression of Women: Women only gained the right to vote, to run for political office, property rights etc. in 1920, in the US. Before this, women were restricted in legal rights, opportunity to own property, self determination, education, careers etc, both in terms of law and in terms of social convention
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-wave_feminism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nineteenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitu tion
.

3. Oppression of the Landless: At the time of the US constitution's writing, and in the early years of the US, ,only to white American men who owned land received the full benefits of the law.

Now, I am not beating up on Americans here. Many other allegedly civilized nations at the time had similar policies and conditions. Also, I respect American society's work and sacrifice in the past to rectify these inequities.


You are right the west will never conquer Islam, but one day, Jesus Christ himself will.:)
This is the problem. Why should humanity wait for a fictional magical being to solve our problems? Expecting religious ideology to fix problems essentially absolves all of humanity to fix the problems ourselves. Such attitudes can be cataclysmic.

Radical Muslims believe the same thing...... that is bringing an apocalypse upon the world will hasten judgment day so Allah will come to earth, save the righteous Muslims and condemn the infidels (like you and me) to fiery death. This is how we get Islamic nations like Iran pursuing the construction of nuclear weapons. Many Islamics believe their use will hasten judgment day, so all THEIR problems (like the Christians and the Jews) will be fixed.

Given the way god and Jesus have been no-shows for literally hundreds of scheduled dates (as calculated by religious scholars) I do not believe they will show up at all. Therefore, lets not screw up the planet! Lets learn to get along with Muslims and help them overcome the excesses of radical Islam, just the way the west has largely freed itself from the excesses of radical Christianity.

Well said MagicRat, although I disagree with you on the fictional magical being part, we should try and fix as much of these problems as we can.

You know, the victors write the history, often to their own advantage.
The native peoples were largely obliterated by the Europeans. The diseases were fortuitous uses of biological warfare; their existence was exploited by the Europeans as a way of removing the natives. If the Europeans had no ulterior motivations, they would not have occupied the lands of the dying natives.

The conquered peoples have a much different view than yours:
http://www.nasponline.org/publications/cq/cq328native.aspx
http://www.answers.com/topic/american-indian

Even Christian scholars recognize the religious-driven excesses and wrong-doings of some conquoring Eurpoeans:
http://newhousefoundation.org/subpage13.html

Much colonialism occured outside of the United States, where the abuses were often more excessive:
http://blog.aurorahistoryboutique.com/european-colonialism-in-south-america/
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/126237/colonialism/25892/Slave-trade

Other references or genocide:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_history_of_American_indigenous_peoples
http://theminaretonline.com/?p=1770

But to put this in an historical perspective, the Europeans did a fine job of slaughtering millions of their own people throughout history. The fate of native populations was not much different.
http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat0.htm#European


ere restricted in legal rights, opportunity to own property, self determination, education, careers etc, both in terms of law and in terms of social convention
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-wave_feminism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nineteenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitu tion
.



MagicRat, I can see you weren't concerned about what was written on those sites.

They agree the major reason for Native American death was NOT genocide and slaughter, but transmission of disease. They also agree even if biological warfare was talked about, there was no evidence of it being implemented, and the diseases were spreading too fast anyway without intentional transmission.

Also the Spanish and Portugal conquistadors were warring for their political, national leaders, NOT for Christ or Christianity.
One of those sites states those Conquistadors also killed PROTESTANT believers, not just Native Americans. That was not from the spirit of Christ.

Other factors to consider when some Europeans fought the Indians is, if it was self defense, because the Native Americans attacked first.

The Christian site you posted states there was national repentance for any wrong done by Jamestown people. The Spanish never have nationally repented for their massacres.

I wonder, has there been national repentance in Muslim countries for their crimes of massacre and genocide?

I will comment on the rest of your post later.

MagicRat, I can see you weren't concerned about what was written on those sites.
CL8, you might find this hard to believe, but I do not want to annihilate everything you have to say.

When I link a site that might support part of your statement, it does NOT mean I am not paying attention. It means that I (gasp) might actually AGREE with some of what you have to say.

They agree the major reason for Native American death was NOT genocide and slaughter, but transmission of disease. They also agree even if biological warfare was talked about, there was no evidence of it being implemented, and the diseases were spreading too fast anyway without intentional transmission.
I addressed this issue a bit in my earlier post. To clarify, even if the diseases was not intentional, the colonialists did not respect the Native possession of the lands. The colonialists took advantage of the diseases and occupied native lands. If the Europeans had not done so, the native populations would have recovered and they would have reclaimed the territories.
This actually happened with the Inuit (the natives living in the far north).


Also the Spanish and Portugal conquistadors were warring for their political, national leaders, NOT for Christ or Christianity.
One of those sites states those Conquistadors also killed PROTESTANT believers, not just Native Americans. That was not from the spirit of Christ.

I did not think that ANY killing was in the spirit of Christ. But many Conquistadors thought they were good Christians. So did many slaveowners.
So, how did such 'good' christians rationalize the violence and injustice that they metered out?
One excuse that I have heard from some Americans (and Canadians) is that North America was god's gift to the white people, that is, god wanted America to be a Christian state. So Christians coming here, settling the place and displacing the natives was them simply doing god's will.

Now, you may say that such actions are not in the spirit of Christ. But many other Christians believe it to be so. And this is the trouble of doing anything in terms of gods will etc. It is so subject to interpretation as to be a dangerous way of doing anything.



Other factors to consider when some Europeans fought the Indians is, if it was self defense, because the Native Americans attacked first.
No. The Europeans came to America. The natives were already here, and were protecting themselves. This should be self-evident.

Now, if the natives paddled their canoes across the Atlantic and attacked the French on the beaches of Calais, then, yes, I would say the natives attacked first. :)


The Christian site you posted states there was national repentance for any wrong done by Jamestown people. The Spanish never have nationally repented for their massacres.

I wonder, has there been national repentance in Muslim countries for their crimes of massacre and genocide?
Well, this is the trouble. Some muslim countries are experiencing the excesses now that the Christians displayed centuries ago.

Christian nations worked through their excesses through the emergence of new ideas and philosophies, many of them secular in origin, such as democracy, separation of church and state, feminism, basic human rights and the rule of a secular legal code for all.

The most reprehensible muslim nations have none of these. So, we need to make sure the west gives them such tools...... and NOT murder them all or wait for jesus to come and solve the problem for us. :)

No. The Europeans came to America. The natives were already here, and were protecting themselves. This should be self-evident.

Now, if the natives paddled their canoes across the Atlantic and attacked the French on the beaches of Calais, then, yes, I would say the natives attacked first. :)


:lol:


I just wanted to point out that the Natives in Mexico and Canada were exposed to the same illnesses as those that occupied what is currently the US. Those areas didn't lose anywhere near the percentage of Natives as the US. It really is asinine to claim that the US settlers/army/government wasn't responsible for the decimation of their population.


Also, there is no doubt that the Christians have (by far) committed the most atrocities throughout history, but most of the Christians today aren't like those that came before them. Most now just pick and choose what they want to believe, and what they want to ignore. If you want to see what Christianity looked like generations ago, go no further than the Westboro Baptist Church. While considered nutjobs and/or extremists by some... they are true to the origins of Christianity.

:lol:




Also, there is no doubt that the Christians have (by far) committed the most atrocities throughout history, but most of the Christians today aren't like those that came before them. Most now just pick and choose what they want to believe, and what they want to ignore. If you want to see what Christianity looked like generations ago, go no further than the Westboro Baptist Church. While considered nutjobs and/or extremists by some... they are true to the origins of Christianity.
So Blazee, are you trying to say That Jesus Christ set the example of Westboro Baptist Church, or Paul, Peter, John, Stephen and James who were all persecuted and all of those but John were killed by the non Christians of their day????!!!!

You don't know what you are talking about!

You don't know what you are talking about!I'm sure that it makes you feel better to believe that. You can wrap yourself up in that lie like a warm blanket if it brings you comfort, but the fact of the matter is that your views are completely biased and based on the propaganda that has been used to brainwash you, and my observations are based on facts and history.

To dramatically simplify it, the role of the Christian is to follow Jesus, spread christianity and the word of god, endure a mortal life full of persecution, and be rewarded by heaven in the afterlife.

You think that you are more of a Christian than the WBC? How many times have you stood in front of angry crowds of booing people that wanted to kill you, in order to preach the word of god? How many times have you been stoned (by rocks, not weed) while sharing your love of god with the world? For that matter, to how many creatures have you spread the gospel? How many souls have you warned about eternal damnation? FYI, preaching to other Christians doesn't count, nor does anonymously leaving letters around town or hiding behind a computer to spread lies, ignorance, and propaganda on the internet.

Nearly all Christians today (if honest) would have to answer ZERO to most of those questions. The general attitude today, is that as long as you give lip service on Sunday, its God's job to make sure that you have a happy life. The ways of enduring a life dedicated to giving glory to god, and praising Jesus to achieve salvation in the afterlife have long been forgotten or given up to follow more selfish motivations.

The Westboro church does take Christianity to its logical extreme and does display the sheer irrationality of organized religion as we know it.

For some reason, they have focused on homosexuality as their cause of choice.

They think about gay sex more than gay people do :), and logically condemn everyone who does not agree with them. Apparently, everyone who does not actively oppose homosexuality is a 'fag enabler' and is going straight to hell.

Imo their position makes no less (and no more) sense than any other Christian ideology. Sure, it is less pleasant, but no less logical.

Frankly, Christians who do not go to such extremes demonstrates the willingness of Christians to modify and pick-and-choose what they believe in, to make it more palatable. The Westboro Church is like 9/11, it demonstrates how fundamentally destructive and harmful religious ideology really is..... and confirms why I want nothing to do with it. :)

Blazee or MagicRat,
Just what do you consider to be "spiritual well being" and wholeness?

Blazee or MagicRat,
Just what do you consider to be "spiritual well being" and wholeness?By completely ignoring them, does that mean you concede that our posts are correct?

Blazee or MagicRat,
Just what do you consider to be "spiritual well being" and wholeness?
I take it that you are asking what organized philosophy by which do I consider life to be worth living?

I would say, secular humanism:
About secular humanists from this site: (http://www.americanhumanist.org/Who_We_Are/About_the_AHA)

We strive to bring about a progressive society where being “good without god” is an accepted way to live life. We are accomplishing this through our defense of civil liberties and secular governance, by our outreach to the growing number of people without religious belief or preference, and through a continued refinement and advancement of the humanist worldview.

And from Wikipedia: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secular_Humanism)

Humanism is a democratic and ethical life stance, which affirms that human beings have the right and responsibility to give meaning and shape to their own lives. It stands for the building of a more humane society through an ethic based on human and other natural values in the spirit of reason and free inquiry through human capabilities. It is not theistic, and it does not accept supernatural views of reality:


Imo this is the basis for using the innate ability for people to organize themselves for the logical greater good of all people, our society, our environment and the planet in general.

Unlike organized religion, there is no hell for others to threaten us, no heaven to permit others to manipulate us, no dogmatic beliefs that we use to coerce or threaten others. :)

A page or two or three back, there were some posts that might have been in the neighborhood of personal attacks. Let's keep it civil folks - the idea, not the person, should be the target of attacks.

By completely ignoring them, does that mean you concede that our posts are correct?

Blazee, my question was a response to your post, although I see something has turned you so far from God, there is no convincing you of Gods truth and goodness.

As far as your questions about my spreading the gospel, I will say I have not and do not neglect that, though many Christians do.


Fred, I would like to see your input on this:)