Fuel Injector Spray End Cap fell into Bore/Spark chamber

As the title says, I am pulling my old (defunct looking) injectors and what I think is injector #1 (1st plug at left front of engine true front; 1st plug on left facing inward from front of vehicle) is missing the plastic cap which I believe helps control the spray angle/width of the fuel.

It is hard to say whether or not this is inside my current engine as I had 2 other engines in there that used these injectors (the original and a reman engine that had to be pulled).

In any case my main concerns are:
1. Should I try to remove this through the injector and/or spark plug bore?

2. Is it going to cause a problem or will it just melt into the exhaust?

3. Should I pull the spark plug out and see if it looks abnormal?

4. Could this lil plastic cap cause irregular burning, a. with it being off the injector and b. for it just hanging out in the spark chamber?

5. With the amount of force/pressure running through there during combustion is it likely that it just fell into the cat and melted away?

6. Should I even be concerned? I'm looking into buying a bore scope now and they are pricey. I don't want to buy it if I don't have to. Hope someone replies fast.

I DO know that the cap will NOT get into the exaust.......as it is on the INTAKE side of things.
It would not get in past the intake valve.....into the cylinder....and out the exhaust valve.......and it is too big to do that.
I don't think that it can get far enough into the intake valve to cause it to get stuck.....but I could be wrong.
I am thinking of how big the hole is when the valve opens....as compared to the size of the injector end cap.

The engine has overhead valves......so the shaft of the valve passes through the intake......and is tappered.

I could be wrong.....but my gut feel is that the injector cap is not down in the intake......it would need to break for that to happen....
The first time that I pulled the injectors out....leaving them connected to the fuel rail......several of the end caps stayed in the head.
They fit down in there in the "seat" and don't fit on down in.
I am guessing that this happened at the shop.....easy for one to fall off and get lost.

What I am not familiar with on the '95........but I KNOW is the case with the '96 and newer.....the fuel injectors mount into the HEAD.....not the intake manifold.
I know this from reading.....as well as having taken my own lower intake manifold off.

EDIT: On the 95 the injector do mount into the heads and NOT the intake manifold. I "sight" confirmed it a lil while ago. This is where I believe all Windstar engines are probably the same (small block on down).

So there is a "seat" that the end caps rest on inside the injector bore?

If I shined a light into the spark plug hole will it illuminate the injector hole?

How much maneuvering room is there from the injector end cap seat to the spark plug? Is it an open area or what? I guess I need a diagram. The CD-ROM doesn't seem to be helping.

Thank you for your reply as always Carl. I just need to know what you'd do in this situation. Will leaving the cap in there cause problems? Would you try to get it out? How? etc....

Can anyone else take a crack at my questions in the first post? Thanks.

Frustrated.:banghead:

Found a lil more information supporting the idea of a "seat" being there Carl (as you'd said).

I found this on a weird web page regarding injector testing:

"NOTE: If a seat washer remains in the recess of the cylinder head for the fuel injector nozzle, the protrusion of the fuel injector nozzle into the cylinder will be incorrect. Also, if the seat washer is damaged, the protrusion of the fuel injector nozzle into the cylinder will be incorrect."

I think the "end cap" as I've been calling it is called the "seat washer". My intuition told me right if that paragraph is right...... though the seat washer could actually be the metal washer thats above the plastic end cap. lol

After closer inspection today the cap did break off its base. The base is still there (which to me looked like a washer) but upon a closer look its the base of the end cap and the cap part of it is just gone. I'm gonna put in a shop vacuum with a small hose end and see if I can get anything in it out of the injector bore and if not then I'll settle to just put in the new injectors.

I should've compared the broke injector to the other old ones at first cause they don't have what I initially thought was a washer.... its just an end cap.... so if the cap breaks off it looks like a washer.

So now knowing this (cap broke off perfectly so that just the nippled end of it is gone leaving a perfect washer; its base in place) could that of gone into the exhaust and melted?

Take note that the injector does NOT go into the cylinder.....so you will not see the injector by looking into the spark plug hole.
That arrangement is done with DIRECT injection (as in a diesel application).
Of course....direct injection would require the injector to be able to take all the stress of the combustion chamber.......so you can see that it would be more expensive.

The injector on the windstar 3.8L is STILL in the intake....before the intake valve....just mounted into the head part of the intake passage instead of the intake manifold.

I am not sure if you can see something of what I am talking about in this picture..... http://rides.webshots.com/photo/2068738120011220610nnxLsy

This is with the lower intake manifold removed, and the round holes are the intake passages (2 per cylinder on my '96......your '95 will have 1 per cylinder).
The 2nd round'ish hole from the right on the holes that face you....I think you can see the shaft for the intake valve....You can also see the holes in the top of the head for the injectors.

You can see the push rods for the intake and exhaust valves below the face that the lower intake manifold sits on.
The push rods will move UP.....into the rocker arm under the valve cover......and the rocker arm will push the intake valve shaft DOWN to open it.

First of 3 pictures of one of my fuel injectors
http://rides.webshots.com/photo/1345069472011220610rfQEsL

That does help a lot man. Thanks.

Just for edification sake, the whole "seat" thing I didn't get till I reinstalled the new injectors. Thereafter I realized the seat it right there in front of me up top.

Speaking of direct injection in gasoline engines... I suspect we will see it in the next round of new engines from all manufacturers. A couple already have it. It will help to squeeze out a bit more energy from the fuel. What will the fuel system pressure be ... 100psi perhaps? Depends on how advanced the piston will be when the fuel is injected I suppose.

Interesting.

Searcherr, didn't know how far you have gotten on your missing pintle protection cap - plastic "hat." Coincidentally, I needed to replace injector #6 on my 95, 3.8. Lucky for you! :) If I understood you correctly, you are missing the top of the hat but still have its "brim" when you pulled the fi with the brim basically keeping the oring on. It appears to me the top of the hat very well could have dropped all the way through and is just hanging out in the head. I concur that the fi's go into the heads on the 3.8. Shining a light through the fi hole, it's surprisingly roomy inside above the intake valve.

I would most definitely try to obtain the lost piece!!! I figured out that with the upper intake off, you should be able to snake a hose through the intake for that cylinder and suck out or at least grab it with the vac hose. I found heater hose fits my 1-1/4" shop vac hose and then can shove inside the heater hose a smaller hose if needed for tight places and taping the joints. I am fortunate that I am only working on #6, as it is at the front so I can figure out things and see good. You're on #1? To help confirm if the cap top is in there, you could blow air in there to hear it rattle. If you're really lucky, you might be able to take compressed air and blast it out by putting the air in the injector port and hope it comes out the intake hole. If you could, closing at least the intake valve would help. Even putting your shop vac in reverse with a small hose to the injector port may be all it takes.

Hmm, this cap behind the intake valve makes me wonder if this may be part of your fuel economy problem, as it would interfere with the flow of air and fuel and the efficiency of their mixing - consequently not burning completely, well or efficiently. Hmm.

My injectors had been pulled out twice since factory installation. Twice because of 2 engine installs. I bet that the cap came off in the original engine or during one of the 2 engine installs. I had put a shop vac to the holes (in suck position) of the injectors and got nothing out so i'm going to assume for now that the caps are not in there. See my big thread that starts with "Attempts Stall....." for where I'm at with all this. I don't think it was these caps at all now. I had some melted wiring harnesses that went to O2 and fuel related things.

Searcherr, you should reread my previous post again if you haven't recently. If in fact the broken off top of the pintle cap "hat" fell into the head, leaving behind on the injector the washer looking "brim of the hat," I very seriously doubt you could get that piece back through the injector hole. If it was still in the injector, hole then I do see it possible to retrieve it with a vac. Did you actually see it still in the hole? I didn't think you had, though being #1 is on the back side of the engine, it may not be that easy to see. I observed on mine the pintle hat top part fits fairly snuggly into the lowest and smallest diameter portion of the injector bore, making it impossible to retrieve it back through that hole. I had to remove the upper intake manifold to get to my bad injector, so it seemed very obvious to try to reach the piece in the head via the intake manifold opening with a vac, etc., or blast it out via the injector hole and out the intake hole. You may be very well right that the piece previously broke off and isn't even in your engine. But if the pintle cap is so important to the spray pattern, etc., which may explain the poor fuel economy you've had, you would want to replace it or the whole injector. The one I bought by GP Sorenson is a different design with a different nozzle and no hat. I haven't been able to test drive it yet but will as soon as I get the rest of the bugs worked out.

searcherrr, I know this is an old thread but what ever happened with the install??

I'm pretty sure I have an injector hat in my manifold. I have an Impala 00. All of the fuel injectors came out except one of them was missing the O ring and hat. So I'm about to wrap up this intake manifold job and I find the O-ring at the top of the hole. I have a vac and I'll probably try with a hanger to get it out but to take the mani off would be too much!!

Searcherr, you seem to be unsure about the numbering of cylinders. It is a bit confusing. If you have access to Haynes ... look at the layout sketches on page 1-2. It offers an explanation for both 3.8 systems (1995 and later) and the 3.0. Notice that in all cases for the Windstar, the #1 cyl is closest to passenger door.

I recently did some work on a friend's Jeep V8 and ASSUMED the cylinder numbering layout would be the same as Ford's. Big mistake! It's much different.