98 Accord 4 cyl won't start when cold

Hello,
I have done some searching but cannot find any threads with the same problem.

Its just around freezing, and damp in Ontario and suddenly, in the mornings my Accord won't start. The battery is fairly new, the engine cranks and seems to almost catch but never quite. Yesterday, i came home at lunch and it started right up (though i didn't drive it), then this morning it wouldn't start, and it still won't.

The fuel pump comes on when you turn the key to II.

I had the main relay problem on an older Accord but that doesn't seem to be the case for the 98 to 02 models. It seems like the most common problems are with the ignition switch (recall...but it causes random stalling while driving). The other common one is with the coil pack/ igniter. I'm not sure how to really check these, other than by replacing them. I haven't checked for spark yet but i am about to. Anybody know how to measure the resistance of the coil (and what it should be?). What about the wires?

Is there an easy to access fuel filter on this car and if so, where is it?

thanks for any help you might have,
Dave

Start at the cheapest probable cause first-spark plugs. Resistence checks on the coil rarely mean much. You need to check for spark, if none, check to see if the igniter is pulsing. If that is OK, then coil might be the best bet for your problem.

OK, i dug out my Haynes manual and did some reading.
I checked for spark on each plug separately, and the spark was present for each cylinder, but a little more yellowish that i had expected (hard to tell in broad daylight though). Then i tried cranking the car again, and after about 4 ten-second bursts and some gas pedal pumping the car actually stated. Each of those4 4 bursts ended with the engine almost catching (turning over faster than the starter motor). Anyway, it seemed to run/idle normally once started so i took it for a little test drive, but it did not drive normally... First gear (its a manual transmission) was OK but i noticed that starting with low RPMS in 2nd (~1000) caused it to sputter/misfire/lose power and would only accelerate very slowly, till the RPMS reached about 2000 and then it would take off as normal. I tried this about 10 times and got similar results 8 times. The other 2 the car drove as if it was normal.

The good news is that i finally got it off my driveway and into my somewhat warmer garage. Then i went through a little more electrical troubleshooting. Checked the wires and they were all with in specs for resistance. Then i checked the resistance on coil: its supposed to be between 0.45 and 0.55 Ohm and its 0.8, the secondary is supposed to be between 16800 and 25200 Ohm (its a 2.3 Vtech) and it reads 19800. So the resistance on the primary is out of spec.

Start at the cheapest probable cause first-spark plugs. Resistence checks on the coil rarely mean much. You need to check for spark, if none, check to see if the igniter is pulsing. If that is OK, then coil might be the best bet for your problem.

2 questions:

1) how do you check to see if the igniter is pulsing? The only check mentioned in my manual is to see if there's battery voltage at the igniter when the ignition switch is on which doesn't really test the igniter at all does it?

2) You say that resistance checks may not mean much. Mine is out of spec. So could it still be good?

thanks,
Dave

It does look like your problem is with the coil.

I think that Tegger has more information about testing on his website. Try www.tegger.com (http://www.tegger.com)

Good luck,

Sam

Battery voltage at the igniter is a test of sorts. The igniter is actually an electronic switch to ground that responds to a pulse from the ECU. So if there is no pulse from the ECU and there is voltage at the igniter, it means the igniter is not shorted out. The fact that you are getting spark means the igniter is working, but is it working when it is out in the cold? All your tests need to be conducted in the enviornment where the car doesn't start.


Testing the igniter is by disconnecting the wire that goes to the coil from the igniter and placing a small 12 v lightbulb in series with the coil and the igniter. It should blink when the engine turns over. There is no really good test for the coil except to test everything else in the distributor circuit and if it tests good , it is probably the coil. What about spark plugs. What do they look like and what is the gap and how old are they. Again that is the cheapest place to start for hard starting problems.

Coil resistence checks can be an indicator, but how accurate is your ohm meter at low resistence measurings?

Somick: thanks for the link to tegger.com, now that's a useful website to bookmark!

mpumas: the above website (tegger) also suggests putting a 12V light downstream of the igniter, but says something about never suppluing power to the coil if it has nowhere to go (which would be the case since the dist cap has to come off to get at the igniter and coil). It is not explicit, but i assume he means to ground the 2nd contact of the 12V light instead of conecting to the coil.

I'm not sure that this test will tell me anything more than i already know since i have already verified the presence of spark at the end of each plug/wire combination when cranking the engine. Of course testing for spark in ambient conditions is a whole lot different than when the plug is inside the combustion chamber. In other words, the system seems to be functioning under ideal conditions, but not under high load conditions (like cold starting and hard accelerations from low rpms in 2nd gear).

The plugs are about 18 months old, the gaps were all a little on the high side so i regapped them. One plug was a little wet when i first pulled it out...I'm guessing that this was actually gasoline??

I totally agree with you comment about measuring low resistance with my cheap 25$ multimeter. I'm planning on picking up a new coil (about 80$ CAD) and comparing resistance readings. Should i also be biting the bullet and replacing everything downstream of the coil? (ie. cap, rotor, wires and plugs)

I replaced the wires with the plugs (18 months) but not the rotor or cap. I don't really know how to judge wear on these parts. There was a litle bit of reddish dust (rust colored) in the inside of the cap (i have no idea what from) and there was a little bit of white-flakey corrosion on the 4 contacts on the cap. There were no other signs of discoloration, carbon tracking etc.

thanks for your continued interest in this problem :)
Dave

Red dust in the distributor is a sign of a failing distributor bearing.

By the way that may cause all your problems as well.

Here is (just in case) a link for distributor repair:
http://honda.lioness.googlepages.com/distributorbearing

Sam

Red dust in the distributor is a sign of a failing distributor bearing. By the way that may cause all your problems as well.
Here is (just in case) a link for distributor repair:
http://honda.lioness.googlepages.com/distributorbearing
Sam

Thanks, that looks like fun...
There wasn't very much red powder, and it was only on the 'bottom' of the cap (ie. closest to the ground...presumably aided by gravity).

I went to pick up a replacement coil today and brought my handy multimeter along. I have no idea how big a deal this primary resistance number is, and like mpumas stated, who knows how accurate my multimeter is for those low resistances. I do have access to an electronics lab at work so i found a resistor with a printed resistance of 0.47 ohm and checked it with my multimeter and it read 0.70. Then i checked it with out lab's super expensive Fluke multimeter and got the exact same value.

I was a little dismayed to find that the primary coil resistance on the new coil was identical to the one on my car (0.7 Ohm when its supposed to be between 0.45 and 0.55). The secondary resistance was within specs and quite close to the one i have on the car.....So i didn't buy the coil. It didn't make sense to try something that tests the same as what a i already have, since once i try it i can't take it back...I'm not yet ready to take that 80$ gamble.

So i bought a 'calibrated spark tester' and i'm gonna check the spark on each wire, in the garage, in the dark...

any other suggestions?

Dave

Last night i checked the spark with a calibrated spark tester, but i think i bought the one for standard ignition systems not high energy ignition (HEI) systems. The standard one has the central electrode exposed while the HEI has the central electrode recessed in ceramic. Which one should i have gotten?

Anyway, with the standard tester, each wire produced a spark. With he lights off in the garage, i would have to say that the color was 'orangey-blue'...not bright white like i was hoping for.

I also dug a little deeper into the distributor, removing the rotor and coil...looking for a source of the rust-colored dust. I found it on the coil. Some of the exposed metal (thin plates that are sandwiched together) had obviously gotten wet and began rusting. I took some pictures but i don't know how to imbed them into a post on this forum from my hard drive.
I don't know how big a deal this is but at least it doesn't appear that the bearing has died!

I also performed another test once i reassembled everything: I started the car and while it was idling normally I sprayed water (from a misting bottle) onto the wires and the distributor. I added quite a bit of water and was eventually able to make the car sputter and the idle speed drop. I was only able to make this happen twice though. The thought was that maybe something on the high tension side was not properly insulated and moisture (or dirt) was causing leakage of the electricity before reaching the spark plug.

I also went for another drive (after thoroughly drying all fo the ignition components. The car still idled fine and performed normally in first gear. But, again, about 80% of the hard accelerations in 2nd gear would cause the car to lose power/ sputter. But i drove it around a little longer, till it got nice and warm. Then after that, the car performed normally, with no loss of power.

Aren't intermittent problems fun :)

The current thinking is to replace all of the components downstream of the coil (cap, rotors, wires, plugs) and see what happens.

Thoughts?

thanks,
Dave

About a month ago I replaced a distributor on my son's 95 LX. When I removed a cap I found cracked insulation on most of the leads inside.
Your vehicle is a bit younger, but everything may happen.

How about testing the resistance to the ground. It suppose to be somewhere close to infinity or at least in megohms.

Sam

About a month ago I replaced a distributor on my son's 95 LX. When I removed a cap I found cracked insulation on most of the leads inside.
Your vehicle is a bit younger, but everything may happen.

How about testing the resistance to the ground. It suppose to be somewhere close to infinity or at least in megohms.

Sam

What leads do you mean inside the distributor cap?
I will check resistance to ground tonite between the cap leads (where the spark plug wires attach).

I bought all new components for the high tension side of the coil, but since then have not been able to get the car to not start. I was kind of waiting for a no start so i could test each wire with mu calibrated spark tester, and then hopefully replace these components and have the car run.

I also bought an OBDII reader, though it has not been particularly useful in this situation.

Dave

What leads do you mean inside the distributor cap?
I will check resistance to ground tonite between the cap leads (where the spark plug wires attach).

Yes, there are three sensors inside the distributor: TCP, CYP and one more (I forgot its name). The insulation on the wires that go to the actual sensors was in a pretty bad shape. That was why I recommended to check the resistance to the ground.

Sam

Hi Dave, hope you're still reading the forum! (I sent you a PM but it didn't seem to go through after a few tries).

I came across this old post and wondered, did you ever figure out what the problem was? I suppose you've probably gotten rid of the car by now, but maybe you managed to solve the problem.

I've been trying to figure out what sounds like could be the same issue with my 2001 coupe for the last 4 or 5 years in the winter, where once the temperature is below -10 or -15C it takes around 10 or 12 "beats" from the starter before it'll start in the morning, usually with a few coughs before it finally fires up. When I first bought the car, it would always take 7 "beats" to start in cold weather and 3 when warmed up or during the spring/summer/fall.

I also have had the hesitation between 1500 and 2000 rpm in 2nd gear or above, mostly only in cold weather, at full throttle. Once the rpms hit 2000, it smooths out instantly and runs smooth the rest of the rev range

I have suspected maybe the coil or ignitor so it's interesting that you seem to have been headed in the same direction with your troubleshooting.

If you managed to figure this out I'd really like to hear what it turned out to be.

Thanks in advance,

Hi Dave, hope you're still reading the forum! (I sent you a PM but it didn't seem to go through after a few tries).

I came across this old post and wondered, did you ever figure out what the problem was? I suppose you've probably gotten rid of the car by now, but maybe you managed to solve the problem.

I've been trying to figure out what sounds like could be the same issue with my 2001 coupe for the last 4 or 5 years in the winter, where once the temperature is below -10 or -15C it takes around 10 or 12 "beats" from the starter before it'll start in the morning, usually with a few coughs before it finally fires up. When I first bought the car, it would always take 7 "beats" to start in cold weather and 3 when warmed up or during the spring/summer/fall.

I also have had the hesitation between 1500 and 2000 rpm in 2nd gear or above, mostly only in cold weather, at full throttle. Once the rpms hit 2000, it smooths out instantly and runs smooth the rest of the rev range

I have suspected maybe the coil or ignitor so it's interesting that you seem to have been headed in the same direction with your troubleshooting.

If you managed to figure this out I'd really like to hear what it turned out to be.

Thanks in advance,
Your problem sounds like fuel related to me.

Before you start your car in the morning try this trick: turn your key to the "ON" position without starting the car for may be 4, 5 times. This will prime the fuel system. If it starts right away, you have found the problem.

I am not sure if fuel filter is a replaceable item on 98 but that what I would do.
I would also check the fuel pressure.

Good luck,
Sam

Your problem sounds like fuel related to me.

Before you start your car in the morning try this trick: turn your key to the "ON" position without starting the car for may be 4, 5 times. This will prime the fuel system. If it starts right away, you have found the problem.

I am not sure if fuel filter is a replaceable item on 98 but that what I would do.
I would also check the fuel pressure.

Good luck,
Sam

Thanks, I have tried that and it doesn't make any difference. Next thing I want to try is removing the fuel pump fuse and cranking it for a while, then putting the fuse back and trying again. If it's not fuel then theoretically it should start easily after this although maybe then the fuel rail will be empty from the cranking.. Anyway I don't want to hijack this thread with my issue, I can always start a new one...

Thanks, I have tried that and it doesn't make any difference. Next thing I want to try is removing the fuel pump fuse and cranking it for a while, then putting the fuse back and trying again. If it's not fuel then theoretically it should start easily after this although maybe then the fuel rail will be empty from the cranking.. Anyway I don't want to hijack this thread with my issue, I can always start a new one...
I cannot understand how this may help but try it if you think it will.

I would also try to measure the fuel pressure. But you need some special equipment for this.

Good luck,
Sam