VR4 vs SS/SC

Went to a friend's house to pick up a jacket I had left there about a week ago. My roomate was riding shotgun in my car and we came to this dead street with no traffic and there was a red SS Cobalt waiting at the stoplight...without the combat wing. (which I can't stand because then it really does look like a Cavalier). We just glanced at eachother, nothing out of the ordinary, but still expecting he may go when the light goes green. The light turns green and I just start off in first normal where he does like-wise but only for about a second where he then punches it as do I. I immediately catch him and pass him and then short-shift by about 2k rpms into second while he was still having a some traction problems. I shut it down at about 4.7k rpms in 2nd when he quick slammed on his breaks and took a right turn lol. The reason I had to short shift so bad is because I just installed my boost controller and gauge, but now that it's at 14.5 psi, it has horrible spark blowout on full boost which is like running into a brick wall when you get there. I would say when he turned off I was maybe 3 cars ahead. He tried for a little bit after hooking up in second before making his quick exit.

Nice quick race! Us LSJ guys will never take you in a short race like that...or from a stop lol. If he is staged it would be interesting from a higher roll though. Find him again and maybe he won't puss out so fast and at least hang with ya and not turn off right away!

Yeah, I know those modded LSJ's can hang with a VR4 from roll. This guy was spinning tires quite a bit though. Considering the fact I had to do an extreme short shift, I think if he was a decient driver he would have been closer towards the end. None the less, it was still fun to toy around.

I think I can beat a certain modded VR4 up here from a roll :D as we were dead even before my header/dp.

Dont be bashing my wing there, son :) It might be all you see from a 40.

It should be a very good race from a rol. From a stop, you kill me every time until maybe 100 :P Boost limit and TD helps, but still is no substitute for AWD :(

It takes a pretty good driver not to spin these tires, or just limited boost. But most LSJ guys dont have HPtuners, let alone boost limit. He was probably just scared of the VR4 next to him and paniked. I know I would!

^Haha, no I was saying I do like the cobat wing. I can't stand them without it. IDK it just brings them together as more of a sports car than a Cavalier. As for 701, maybe he is a good driver but I still don't see how he'd lose from a roll. I know it would be close but given that he doesn't have a lot of knock and his car is tuned right, he should be trapping 106-107mph in the 1/4 with a very good shot at 12's if he drove it right. This is from what I have seen multiple others run on 3si. Now....you catch them at 100? Aren't you trapping 103 in 14.1 seconds whereas he should be in the proximaty of going 106-107ish in about 12.8-13.0 seconds? That would be quite a spread. But as I have seen in many cases, anything can happen on the street.

Well zen zis veekend ve shall video tape some races! It doesnt make sense on paper how our cars that should be trapping 104-105 if they werent hot-lapped at the track (cough cough MZR cough) keep up or beat VR-4s from a roll. I could see it being rape having a staged and bolted LSJ against a stock VR-4 and have seen it many times. But with 701's mods he should be pulling us. It was dead even when MZR had stock exhaust, but in 701's defense we we still hadnt got the boost controller gain quite right so boost was spiking and dropping. Thats why I think a rematch is in order...MZR with exhaust and 701 running how he is now....and me if my car ever decides to work right, because it seems to be hit and miss lately.

Oh and im not trying to be an LSJ fanboi, keep in mind the VR-4 is still my favorite car (and hopefully next car)...so no bias here

Vids FTW! Nah, I am not trying to rag on LSJ's, I just don't see how these races are happening after looking at what others with similar mods on both cars have run. And I am sure a staged LSJ with bolt-ons could handle itself quite nicely agianst a bone stock VR4 from a roll. I guess my questioning was the part of pulling back on one like 701's at a 100mph when he should be passed 100 and to about 106-107 mph in 12.8-13.0 seconds where you would be trapping speeds of 104mph but from what I have seen taking you about 14-14.3 seconds to get there. The difference between the two times is quite substantial in distance between the two cars if that's what they were running.

I agree with what your saying, but dont just base the LSJ's preformance off of our crappy times. When MZR ran the 14.1 he had a 2.4x sixty-foot time...which is aweful. They dont prep the track that we go to. Damn I still wish I could have ran my car! Most guys with similair mods to ours who can drive worth a shit on a well prepped track (sorry MZR...I wouldnt have done any better:tongue:) usually run 13.5-13.7 @ 104-105...allthough I have seen a few runs of people with the EXACT same mods as me but with a heat exchanger that trapped 108, but it is not common.

Also, I do not think from a stop we would ever run down 701's car, but a stock VR-4 would probably run down by an LSJ similair to ours right around the quarter mile mark.

MZR, we should find the video of you running the EVO at the track and killing the shitty driver's dreams just for fun!

Yeah, the fucker even had a two step! We should get the camera from brandon.

Yes I hot lapped it, but you fuckers told me to! I should be a mid 13 second car, but I have only been to the track twice so I need a little bit of practice. But we will take videos of the race that will end much differently than you expect :D Like we said, 40 to 90 was dead even.

There would be no hope from a stop, no matter how good of a driver you put in my car. Unless 701 kills it!

And you should keep in mind, those trap speeds and quarter times are on an AWD car compared to a FWD car :icon16:

i had fun with a LSJ not long before i got rid of my vr4.
i posted the race on here, i think he said it was a stage 2
i killed him from a roll up to i think 110 or 120
not by much, they are a lot faster than i thought they were. it actually did a better job than the srt4 did

i ran a stage 2 cobalt ss/sc with the stealth tt, he beat the living hell outta me, though a 3rd gear grind didn't help, it was from a roll at like 50 or so. all the way up to 130, at that point i puss'd out due to bad front end vibration, but i had pulled a lil bit of a nose on him, took a lot of work to catch him after the grind

Yay for quick little bastards! Most people are suprised by these things. The Rabbit R32 guy I killed was quite impressed by how badly I beat him. I can run doors with I/E LS1s and ~400hp VR4s. Not many people would expect that, me included. Had I not seen these things happen first hand, I wouldnt believe it either.

my mistake, it was a stage 1 cobalt

story here http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=714769

I can run doors with I/E LS1s and

I don't see how since they run mid 13's at around 105 stock...maybe it wasnt the best driver in the world?

^^That's what I was thinking. And like I said before, I in no way am trying to doubt the LSJ, but from what not just you but quite a few others have ran wiht similar mods, it just doesn't add up unless you account for the other driver being a bad driver. LS1's are 2wd and have even been able to pull a couple low 13 second 1/4 without so much as an intake. As for a 400hp VR4, I know a guy here who had his VR4 dyno'd at about 340awhp and ran a 12.4.

Yeah the maro he is talking about is a good friend of ours. He is a good driver and that thing is a beast...sooo clean too. It only has a custom made intake and SLP loudmouth cat back (which I would recomend for anyone with an LS1). Mzr raced him before header and DP and got beat by about 3/4 of a car to about 110, but the camaro was pulling more and more on the top end. Hmm looks like thats another race we will have to tape!

And the VR4 is 701's. He has a EBC at 14.5psi, intake, and possibly turbo back exhaust (his dam car is too low to lift ul to see under), but at least cat-back. They were dead even from like 40-90 before header/do, but 701 was still messing with the BC and it was boucing from 10-15psi and only holding about 11-12. Now its holding 14-14.5 and almost 12-13 to redline. Thats why remarches are in order!

You guys should get 701's car checked out. And btw, if he has intake, MBC, and catback he is looking more around 370ish hp at the most...no way does he have 400hp. Assuming the driver was worth a crap at all, you would lose 400hp VR4 from any speed. And if you did win, it would be the driver's fault. Not trying to be the bad guy or a 3/S fan boy but just stating the facts.

His car is fine. It was apparently failed to mention before that the boost was all over the place before. It screams like a raped ape now. And agreed that there is now way BC, intake, and exhaust will net 80 bhp...those number are inflamed.

This makes me want to video tape these races tonight. I dont care that I just got my wisdom teeth out this morning. We need to have this settled. Tyler tonight or tomorrow its going down..vr4, maro or both

Yay for quick little bastards! Most people are suprised by these things. The Rabbit R32 guy I killed was quite impressed by how badly I beat him. I can run doors with I/E LS1s and ~400hp VR4s. Not many people would expect that, me included. Had I not seen these things happen first hand, I wouldnt believe it either.
a 400hp VR4 is a mid 12 car. You wouldnt stand a chance from a dig, or from a roll. Those long gears in the VR4 really help it in a roll race.

Well then Sids VR4 HP estimate must be way off, as thats what it is predicted at.

He has the 6 speed, we found out my 2nd gear is longer than his is.

And I really dont expect anything but critisism with this car, as it is pretty much all I ever get. People doubt it withoug actually knowing what it can do. You say that it is impossible, yet I have witnesses to the LS1 and VR4 races. I did include the "~" for a reason, as I didnt think it has quite 400, but we have to other number to go off of.

And why are we still comparing 1/4 times of a 3800lb, AWD car to a 2900lb FWD car?

Another note of interest is STOCK VR4's are quicker than your listed time.

Sounds to me you are beating the driver, not the car.

That is what I did not want to have happen. I wasn't saying your car is in any way, shape or form bad or inferior. I was just stating what Stealthee was saying, you probably beat the driver, which there is no disrespect in that! And even with those trap times it's about or even less than what a stock VR4 does. The only reason I bring these issues up is because I want to know how someone has won or lost...I'm not doubting any of them.

Hmm driver eh? Maybe this means 701 will let me drive the verfer against you MZR!

And stealthee, the traps are quite close to a stick vr4 like you mentioned, but I've seen several times cars with our mods pull a couple cars on stock vr4s. Hell I got into a short run with one before I had header and dp and was pulling pretty decently, but its was also a bone stock first gen that doesnt look like its been taken care of well. (MZR, its the VR4 who's owner works at papa johns on washington)

I think 701 and MZR will be a damn good race personally, and if you guys are confident in my mad tyte driving skillz I could maybe convince 701 to let me behind the wheel. Until then i think we should drop it cause there is no use in arguing about something that we should be testing very soon. We can let SL's thread get back on topic (actually this argument was quite on topic) and we will get footage hopefully tomorrow of teh vr4 and possibly the LS1 if the cops arent out too much.

Now we play the waiting game!

p.s. I might finally tear shit apart on my car tomorrow and see if I can get it running right again!

i can honostly see a srt4/cobalt ss/ ion redline pulling on a vr4 or stealth tt in a roll, they have an amazing amount of power and torque and only fwd, less powertrain loss, and much less weight.

standing 1/4, i'd assume the 3 cars mentioned by me with fwd will have a hard time hooking up at first, but once hooked would go like a bat out of hell. i know of a few srt4's and cobalt ss/sc running nothing more than intake and exhaust that pull on cars with in the area of 300hp, such as my buddy's zx tt, a 350z, and a base 911

With just an intake I was very close to an 03-05 350 but I couldnt take him, he did have an intake and an AMAZING sou ding exhaust though. I think he wants to race again because a few weeks ago he pulled into a parking lot when I was inside eating and just circled my car and left...weird right? Lol

The newer Z's will never be run down by a stock LSJ tho...them shits is quick! And if the 300zx is a Z32 I dont think a stock LSJ should touch it, since those are on par with VR4s and Supras...and I know I couldnt touch any of those stock. But anything can happen

http://www.3si.org/gallery/data/500/newsigupdate.PNG

Holy Huge Signature Batman!!! :eek2:

Hehehe. I dont know how I did it. I went to change it one day and it went thru. I've probably had it for about a year now. Its the same sig I use on another forum.

^ you get the side skirt on yet?

300zx/z32 same thing. the guys got beat, granted one of the drivers is just really bad at driving, i'm surprised he drives a stick shift, he stalled 3x with me in the car trying to get out of a parking lot

Time to get some coppers and tighten the gap a little. :wink:

Very nice race man. I love when they run away, it's hilarious. :iceslolan

^ you get the side skirt on yet?

300zx/z32 same thing. the guys got beat, granted one of the drivers is just really bad at driving, i'm surprised he drives a stick shift, he stalled 3x with me in the car trying to get out of a parking lot
Hehe, yeah theyve been on for awhile.

Im sorry if i sound a little short, but saying that didnt pull because im a bad driver doesnt seem right to me.
No matter the numbers of my car, If your insinuating that me beeing a bad driver is why my car isnt pulling dirty on a staged LSJ, your very wrong my friends.

I have an EBC, not an MBC, thus i have to deal with the speed of my wastegates and boost-cut and all that fun garbage.
9b's dont take kindly to holding at a constant psi over stock, which mine is at. That was the reason for unsteady boosting.
Though i didnt brake-boost, at no point have i made a driver's error in a race except missing 3rd vs. a supercharged veilside NSX. (needless to say he would have beat me either way, its our shop car at work)
No matter what track times may say, he hung with me.Of course they will have wrose track times, there is no such thing as a FWD car beeing superior to an AWD car down low. This run was from a 40 roll, traction is no longer an issue. I have an HKS twin intake, free-flowing as hell exhaust, EBC @14.5 psi, Lightweight flywheel, and an HD clutch that would make a difference over stock in a race.
MZR was stage 2 in the race with an intake.

FWD dyno proven at only around a 12% drivetrain loss vs. a car weighing almost 1000lbs more with AWD loss from a roll, of course the SS stands a chance at hanging if not pulling. My driving ability has nothing to do with it.
I love my VR-4 and would take it any day over an LSJ (no offense guys), but i give credit where credit is due.
We will race and video tape it, he will more than likley pull on me with his header/dp now from a roll. We will just have to see.

FWD is closer to 18% DTL, not 12%.

Also your estimation of 400hp is a bit much. You may be more like 350-360 bhp tops.

Still with your mods you should have no problems beating a staged LSJ. Theres either something wrong with your tune, or your driving ability. You make the choice.

Oh and I am also not trying to be a dick here. There was a discussion on 3si about a 12.0 9b car without nitrous. One of the guys laughed about how there are 15g cars that dont even run that and how it means there are tons of people running around with shitty tunes.

Hai Sid! lol

I love your VR-4 and would take it any day over my LSJ too, but at least mine may be finally running after our little discovery yesterday.

We never did race MZR last night...so you know what that means:icon16:

Another thing to add is curb weight on the SS/SC is just under 3000. VR4's usually weight 3700 at most. There have been some TT's known to weigh 3500 from the factory.

LSJ's are reported around 12% loss
im not trying to talk up an LSJ, nor am i trying to talk up my VR-4.
i could care less who wins in a street race let alone who you think would win slealthee.
Also, i dont recall ever posting my car has 400hp. anywhere.
So your assumptions aren't making you sound any smarter.

LSJ's are reported around 12% loss
im not trying to talk up an LSJ, nor am i trying to talk up my VR-4.
i could care less who wins in a street race let alone who you think would win slealthee.
Also, i dont recall ever posting my car has 400hp. anywhere.
So your assumptions aren't making you sound any smarter.
MZR said you did.

MZR said you did.
Hmm, well in all honesty i really cant controll what MZR says.
nor can i say that i am MZR.
I was always told not to beleive everything i here.
In junior high you learn that rule of thumb.

Man, relax, don't be so uptight. He's just going off the info he has.

Man, relax, don't be so uptight. He's just going off the info he has.
Hey man I have no problem with people giving their opinions on what they think should go down.
But realizing that your information may not always be right is key in life.
Insulting my driving won't change the facts as much as you may want it to.
untill you take a VR-4 with my mods, and an SS with MZR's, and race them with the VR-4 pulling as you say it should, I will not let anybody tell me i am a bad driver or my car is shit with its tune.

No one said your car is shit. Having a bad tune can greatly affect your car.

A good example is a friend of mine has a 15g car with a ton of supporting mods (FMIC, 650's, Emanage, etc) yet he has issues he has been unable to solve. His car is only slightly quicker than a BPU 9b car because of it.

No one said your car is shit. Having a bad tune can greatly affect your car.

A good example is a friend of mine has a 15g car with a ton of supporting mods (FMIC, 650's, Emanage, etc) yet he has issues he has been unable to solve. His car is only slightly quicker than a BPU 9b car because of it.
Listen man, my car pulls just fine.

:rolleyes: whatever.

hahaha
whatever is right my all knowing friend.

How old are you 12? I'm trying to help and you're acting like a dick. Facts are facts, cars with your mods whould have no problem with a stage 2 LSJ.

MZR said you did.

who is the one sounding like they are 12?
im done with you bro.

who is the one sounding like they are 12?
im done with you bro.
That would be you.

Only reason you are "done" is because you know I am right.

I've been around the 3s world since you were in middle school. I know what they are capable of.

hahahaa
Never will i think your right in this let alone ever respect you after I see how you really are, weather i say im done or not.
I say im done because I have more important things in my life than arguing with a pompus guy from Pennsylvania that drives a stealth and i would hope you can say the same about a street race in ND that you'd like to think you know what happened.
Think what you want about your "knowledge" of LSJ's vs. VR-4s on the streets man.

hahahaa
Never will i think your right in this let alone ever respect you after I see how you really are, weather i say im done or not.
I say im done because I have more important things in my life than arguing with a pompus guy from Pennsylvania that drives a stealth and i would hope you can say the same about a street race in ND that you'd like to think you know what happened.
Think what you want about your "knowledge" of LSJ's vs. VR-4s on the streets man.
This goes to show not only your own lack of knowledge, but your lack of maturity.

Thing is, unless you actually see the exact race, you have no idea what happened. I recall a similar instance of this that got a member banned recently....

Yes, I am not bashing your knowledge of 3S at all. You sure as hell know more about cars than me and Sid combined, I would imagine. But unless you have actually witnessed a Stage two Cobalt SS with intake and HPtuners race a VR-4 with Sid's mods in ND where it is cold ALL THE TIME, helping my supercharger out with its heatsoak, you cant say that his car is tuned wrong or he is a bad driver.

There are countless variables that go on in this case, and unless you are actually there to see what happened, judgments cant be made. I am living proof that driver mod makes a massive difference, as I beat a two-step Evo 9 at the track. Sure, the kid sucked at driving, but does that make what I did not count for anything? nobody is a perfect driver. Run what you brung, and that goes for Driver mod, too.

And Sid, you did say around 400bhp at CinCity when we first went there. As that was the first number that came to my head when I thought about it, I went with that. But that really isnt the point of this argument.

Long story short, you have to see what a staged LSJ can do firsthand.

Cold air is also going to greatly help a TT car as well. Turbos love dense cold air just as much as superchargers.

Im just saying.

And also my main point was the two cars, both being properly tuned and healthy, with the mods given with equal drivers the VR4 would win.

Im not saying i know more than you stealthee, but your job as moderator is not to insult the intelegence of your members, i dont know exactly how you think your "helping" but im not going to stop you.
My question is how do you think i have a bad tune?
And in what conceivable way do you think i screwed up from a 40 roll through second gear?
and i assure you, my car is healthy. I could care less if you beleive me or not. Im the one who drives it every day.

I am a mod of the 3s forum, not anywhere else.

I'm trying to share my knowledge and you are getting bent out of shape and taking it as an insult.

As for your tune, like I said, a TT with your mods should have won that race without an issue. There are a lot of TT owners, not unlike yourself who think there car is running perfect, but when you lose a race you otherwise whould have won it is one of two things. The driver mod, or a bad tune.

I will tell you this though when it comes to the driver mod, I am a much much much better driver now than when I was 18. Hell I am a better driver now than what I was a year ago at the age of 27. You always have room for improvement.

I'm not saying poor driving caused the loss, maybe it did, but I wasnt there to see it. If it wasnt driver error then its going to be car error.

Do you see what I am getting at now?

You can keep thinking your car is healthy and has a perfect tune and keep losing races you should win. Thats your perogative.

I realize what your trying to say
but the whole issue is you need to realize, im not a noob to these cars and i know how it should be pulling,it seems you doubt that soooo much. now at that time i was having boost issues which has been known this entire time, that could have been a major factor.
The issue i think is that you may be underestimating the SS from a roll, not looking at track times where SS's get raped by the AWD 3/S's.
and the other fact of us only going through second gear, nothing more, nothing less, literally no way to make a driver error unless you swerve or do something completly unecessary. it was dead even.
we will go again, and record it, and you can see for yourself.
and im not concerned at all with your opinions on how my street races go.
though you obviously think differently
Ive raced other cars and done what is said should be
S2000, audi tt, mazdaspeed 3. all killed.
you dont know the situation, the people, obviously not the cobalt, you are not needed to decide a race.
and as ive said before, you show me the race with the same circumstances and show it turning out as you've said it should and ill admit something went terribley wrong that everybody there that night was totally oblivious to.

Good point on the other kills, Sid. I have also killed cars I didnt think I should.

R32 for example. And there is the case of the LS1 I/E that I was less than a car behind through 110.

Holy crap this thread has exploded! Now, before we go about pulling out knives and guns, let's take one step back lol. I never said you were a bad driver, I said it was a possibility that one or the other could have been the better driver that race. Believe me, anyone can screw up. Check out my thread of me racing a Mustang GT. :lol: And Stealthee is the most knowledgable person on AF about 3/S's and one of the most knowledgable on 3si. From what I saw, he was trying to give constructive criticism. And yes, your car can seem to run fine when it pulls strong and there is no boost cut or anything. However, it still may not be to its full potential. Have you hooked up a datalogger to see how much knock you are getting at 14.5psi? Have you had your car tuned ever? These are just some things to keep in mind and since you bought your car like this from another person I would definately get it checked out even if they gave you their word. And understand, we are just going off of what we have seen out of countless other people have posted on 3si and such....and even what we have seen in person. Truth be told, I don't care if you win or lose. We were just trying to get to the basis of it. And honestly, we were doing it just fine until this last little eruption occured.

LOOK, he made an observation on the information he had which he had no reason to doubt. Perhaps he was misinformed, perhaps he's right. That's not the point. The point is, lighten the hell up and don't take things so damn personally. You need to realize when someone is just trying to help. Let's just forget this thread, I've let it go on long enough.