350 4 bolt main block

i found a 350 4 bolt main block and crank for $150 is this a good deal, i dont know wat it is out of but i plan on boring and stroking it anyway

thanks for the help

There should be numbers on the block,the right front and left rear.Most 350 blocks should have 5.7 on the rear on most.Any machine shop will probally find out for you.What side is the dipstick tube on?Check if the crank is a cast or steel crank,use a small hammer for this test and tap on on it with the small hammer.If it is a cast crankshaft,a dead thud should ring out and a steel,a loud ringing noise.

Actually, pre-77 blocks will rarely have "5.7" cast onto them. The "litre" thing didn't start here (USA) until the late '70s. Virtally ALL early blocks are "driver's side dipstick". It is accepted that those blocks MAY contain a higher percentage of nickel. No factual info there...

The "dull thud" you hear means the crank is cracked, not "cast". The "ring test" is not to be considered reliable, and for it to be even remotely accurate, the timing gear AND Woodruff key must be removed. Magneflux is the ONLY practical method that IS reliable. To identify a cast crank from a forging, look at the "parting line" that runs the length. A "narrow" one (about 1/16" wide) indicates cast, while a wider one (anywhere from 1/4 to 1/2") is a forging. This is only true with factory cranks. Aftermarkets have many things that can disguise the true origin. A Rockwell test may be necessary for those.

The MOST sure way to tell is to look up the casting or forging number. The vast majority of 2-piece rear seal castings have a number ending in "442". The majority of 2-piece rear seal forgings are 1182. There ARE others, but 95% (or more) are these two numbers.

Measure the bore. If the block is already .040" or more "oversize", it may be worthless. If it's .040" but shows no wear, it MAY "clean" at .060. While there are larger oversize pistons available, .060" is considered the practical limit.

Jim

its a 2 piece rear seal and it hasnt been bored , but if it measures good it it worth $150 ive seen bare 350 blocks at flea markets for like $300 , $150 seems good to me

and cant u use water jacket filler like hard-blok, isnt that wat it is for ( boring oversize ) ?

and it doesnt matter wat the crank is i plan on putting in a stroker crank, so is $150 worth it?

There should be numbers on the block,the right front and left rear.Most 350 blocks should have 5.7 on the rear on most.Any machine shop will probally find out for you.What side is the dipstick tube on?Check if the crank is a cast or steel crank,use a small hammer for this test and tap on on it with the small hammer.If it is a cast crankshaft,a dead thud should ring out and a steel,a loud ringing noise.


You will only see 5.7 on 'newer' blocks with one-piece rear seals.

Dipstick tube is on left for <='79 blocks, right side for >='80 blocks.

You don't even need to hit the crank with a hammer to determine whether it is cast or forged. A forged crank will have a wide 'parting line' across the throws, where a cast crank will have a very thin parting line.

and cant u use water jacket filler like hard-blok, isnt that wat it is for ( boring oversize ) ?

No, that's for strengthening the bores for drag racing - it displaces water and is not to be used in a street engine, for any length of time at all.

When you get into overboring a cylinder block, the cylinder walls become very thin and may even become porous. If that is the case, the block is toast. Even though Mr Peabody says that .060 is the practical limit (and it is), I wouldn't want to run more than a .030-.040 overbore in a street engine that needs to be reliable. .060 overbores have a knack for running hot and remember again that the larger you overbore, the more likely you are to hit a porous spot.

Silicon212,

While what you're saying isn't entirely incorrect, there are a few points to make.

First, .060 over with a small block is quite common without trouble. I wouldn't use one of the modern "thin wall" blocks that way without sonic-testing first, but even those seem to be okay for the most part. The "running hot" thing is more myth than fact. If the cooling system is in good order and the tune is right, it'll be fine.

Another one. Filling the block. While it IS used mainly for race engines, to rigidify (is that a "real" word?) the cylinder walls, it isn't uncommon for certain blocks to be done for street use. 400 small blocks greatly benefit from it, as their walls are woeful. THAT'S a small block I wouldn't like at .060 over, though I have seen them work fine. The majority of the heat from combustion "lives" in the top 1" of the bore, if all things are correct (mixture, timing). If the block is "filled" to within 1 1/2" from the top (water pump openning), the cooling system will take away the heat okay. The real issue here is the oil. Since the bottom portion of the water jacket is solid, the oil in the crankcase can't dissapate heat there, and it needs to. The solution is to install an external oil cooler. We have several customers with small blocks ruinning this way for years in street cars, without heating problems.

FWIW

Jim

so back to my question , lol is $150 a good price?

If the block is in good rebuildable condition, it sure is.

A very good price and they are very hard to find.You are very lucky to find the block.

I recently picked up a running 350 4-bolt block for $75. They are available. This was from a 1979 1T truck, with a ton of miles, and only 1.8 thou taper in the worst bore. Cast crank and bearings looked very good. I'm thinking a forged rotating assembly with a bit more stroke will work out nicely.

http://mysite.verizon.net/strey/files/BoreCheckingBottom.jpg

ok i thought it sounded good, i think i will get it, i want to make it a stroker and i have a set of 305 heads to boost compression, along with high compression pistons i want the compression high itll be a race engine so it doesnt matter what gas it runs on, anyway any cam or intake suggestions, itll be goin in an early 80's compact car and the carb will be a modified q-jet, i bought a book like everyone suggested and it has step by step procedures.
thanks for the input

One of the advantages of a high compression "race" engine is to rev it hard. If you stick with the 305 heads, you won't have that luxury. We've learned in recent years, "flow trumps compression".

What that means, is a head that flows better but has a full point lower compression on a given engine, will usually out-perform the higher compression engine. Though it's not a Chevy, I have an example of "real world" power. One of my customers runs a '74 T/A in F.A.S.T. Class (Factory Appearance, Stock Tire). When he first built it, he used 1970 #64 heads. These heads provided 11.5:1 (milled) on his 462 CID engine. They were ported by a well known Pontiac shop (265 CFM intake flow at .550" lift). Then came a "rule change" that required him to install the correct casting number for the year. That would be the "4X", with 108 CC chambers, yielding a static compression ratio of about 8.4:1. We milled .050" off them, bringing it all the way up to 9.6:1. We ported them extensively (285 intake flow at .550" lift). It had dynoed 350 RWHP before. No other changes, it now dynoed at 388 RWHP. The car picked up 3 MPH as well, indicating the increase in power. So, even with significant loss of compression, it still picked up power.

I would recommend a pair of Vortecs if your budget can't stand some good aftermarket heads. A little exhaust port work and Vortec is an EXCELLENT performer. And, at 64 CCs, you'll still get a good static compression "number".

As for the cam, either a solid'/flat tappet or solid roller is the only thing to bother with in a race engine. We use Comp pretty much exclusively, but there are others. With 11:1, something in the 260-270 range @ .050" lift (intake duration) would be right. Always add 6-8 degrees for the exhaust. The .620" lift rollers are VERY popular these days, expecially in bracket cars. Flat tappets should stay at or under .600" lift due to spring requirements and lifter "load".

Cut zero corners regarding the valve train. Buy parts based on quality, too, not price. A stable valve train in a small block is one of the keys to a long, powerful "life".

If you're going to use the Q-Jet (good carb, BTW), Edelbrock Performer RPM "Air Gap" would be a good choice, but it needs some porting and finish work for a race application. Cliff's High Performance in Mt. Vernon, Ohio, is THE place for Q-Jets for racing. He has customers that run 9s in NHRA SS cars with Q-Jet.

Victor or Super Victor would make more power up high, but are better suited to Holley carbs. Victor Jr. is only suited to smaller cubed engines or 2-bbl. (circle track) applications. If it doesn't say "Edelbrock" on it, it's designed to LOOK like an Edelbrock. Edelbrock wears engines out testing.

FWIW

Jim

There is a special intake if you decide to run with the Vortec heads.I have heard the Holley is only good for race appplications over the Q-jet/Edelbrock,not a good street carb.Drawback with a Holley Carb,floods out running like crap,a pain to set up and one part gets changed,every part gets changed.Plus a Holley is a very crappy street carb,My father had one in a 1937 Pontiac street rod that ran like crap and threw away the Holley replacing it with an Edelbrock which ran better after the carb switch.

so do vortec heads need a special intake or will any intake for a sbc work?
also how do you do porting, i saw a kit in a jegs catolouge, is this what i need?

will vortec heads fit on a first gen sbc?

Vortec heads are capable of fitting on any SBC that's not Gen-II or Gen-III, so yes they can bolt on a 1968 350 for example. And yes, you do need to use the special Vortec intake as no other intake will fit.

ok thanks, but how do i go about porting an intake?

Edelbrock supplies several intakes specifically designed for Vortec heads. These install without modifications. For a heavier car with moderate cam and higher "torque" requiremnents, I would recommend Performer RPM "Air Gap", #7516. For a lighter car with higher revs in mind, Super Victor Vortec, #2913.
Since your stated goal is a race engine, these are the logical choices.

Porting an intake is straight-forward, but if you have no experience, get a book describing the purpose, techniques and pitfalls. Not something you wanna just "jump in and do". And know that porting the iron heads has different tool requirements than the aluminum intake. At your "entry level", I would suggest a "gasket march" ONLY, as the power gains from porting the intake are real, but minimal unless the entire package is matched. Lots of work for little return.

For a race engine, it's not possible to get better carbs than well-prepared Holleys. AED in Richmond, Virginia, is the current "leader" in race Holleys. Reasonably priced (around $500 for a GOOD race carb), they come out of the box and go on the engine, ready to race. An occasional jet change is necessary when track conditions vary. The negative issues spoken of above are usually due to worn out carbs or "last man in". The Edelbrock carbs are NOT suited for racing. VERY difficult to tune them and get them "right" on a high-horsepower engine. They're fine for a tool-around street car. We've tried them on larger street engines (over 400 CID), and they're not well suited for those, either.

Jim

ok thanks, is there a specific cam you would recommend with those specs?

The Eedlebrocks are good carbs for engines 400 CID and over.My father's friend Tim has a 1972 El Camino with a factory 454 and it has a dual Edelbrock setup which runs great with no problems.Comp cams has a tech line you can call including the other Cam makers

The Eedlebrocks are good carbs for engines 400 CID and over.My father's friend Tim has a 1972 El Camino with a factory 454 and it has a dual Edelbrock setup which runs great with no problems.Comp cams has a tech line you can call including the other Cam makers

For street use, yes. I'd actually go as far to say it's better for the street than a Holley. However, when it comes to racing, it's the exact opposite.

Freddy,

Reread what you wrote. If Edelbrocks are good for larger engines, why are there two on there?

My outlook is quite different than yours. I don't "have a friend" that runs XXX. I have LOTS of customers. I see more combinations in a month than most people see in a lifetime. Don't misunderstand that statement. It doesn't make me "better" or "smarter". It makes me more aware. I have nothing to gain or lose by telling folks certain things work better than others. I was invited to be an "advisor" on this site because I don't steer people wrong. I tell the facts from a "pro's point of view".

The absolute BEST carb for a street car is a Q-Jet, but many have trouble with them. If you refer to them as "Quadra-flood" or "Quadra-junk", I rest my case...(:- This man said at the beginning, this is a RACE car. Nothing makes more power than a Holley. The best Holleys come from AED in Richmond, Virginia, until you start treading in ProStock territory, then it's Braswell. I was at Indy for the US Nationals in 2004 (and '05,6,7, missed this year). Barry Grant's ProStock was running well (in '04). I looked under the hood. Holleys. He wasn't there in '05. It didn't qualify in '06. Looked at it again. BGs. It wasn't there last year, either...

Vic,

For a solid flat-tappet and the Vortec head combo, I like the Comp 285B-6. 250/260 @ .050, .532/.555" lift on a 106 LSA. It likes compression around 10.5:1 or higher.

A roller is better. If the budget can stand it, THAT'S the way to go. The Comp 288AR-6 (252/258 @ .050, .630 lift, 106 LSA).

Jim

Vic, also keep in mind that the cam that Mr. Peabody recommended is excellent for making high RPM power, but the 106 LSA will just about preclude it from street use (it'd probably like to idle @ around 2k RPM). He knows his stuff.

It came that way from the factory with a two 4 barrel carbs.My father has a 1962 Impala with a 409 that from the factory with 2 4 barrel carbs,2 Carter AFBs which look like Edelbrocks that runs great also.My father hates Holley carbs,had one on a 1937 pontiac street rod he bought down in Auburn with a 350,single carb and it ran like crap.Threw away the Holley away and replaced it with an Edelbrock,running better.

Freddy,

No '72 ANYTHING came from the factory with 2 4-bbls. Possible exception, the Hemi 'Cuda, but I'm not certain. If it DID, it had two AFBs on it.

And you said it better than I could... The Edelbrocks LOOK like AFBs. They do NOT perform like them. Kinda like Holley and Wieand intakes. They LOOK like Edelbrocks. They don't WORK like Edelbrocks. I'm a real fan of Edelbrock heads and manifolds. Don't have much use for anything else they market.

Your dad's bad experience with a Holley isn't all that rare. If the carb was new when installed, and a good Holley tuner was involved, and it STILL couldn't get "right", maybe the combination had some quirk to it. If the carb was rebuilt or "used" before installation, I would look there instead of simply throwing it away. A carb is a mechanical device, just like a distributor, an engine, a transmission, etc. It is subject to failure just like those others. Expertise in building them is vastly underrated.

My father had a saying regarding situations like this one "5,000 Frenchmen can't be wrong!" The vast majority of those using Holley carbs are quite satisfied with them. No other carb wins 10% of the races run over the year, that Holleys win. Be smart enough to know that one incident, especially where the "throw it out" mentality is used, should not be enough for you to make a blanket statement like "Holleys are junk". Maybe "The Holley my dad used was junk."

I'll leave this one alone now.

PAX

Jim

This 1972 El Camino did come with 2 4 barrel carbs.My father knows a guy that bought a 1970s Chevy truck with a holley and replaced it with an Edelbrock.It ran like crap also and that Holley carb almost was thrown to the floor.The Edelbrock is a lot easier to set up for street cars and the Holley is not.If a part on a Holley is changed,every part gets changed.

Sorry Freddy. Your information is inaccurate. Never a 72chevelleohio around when you need one...(:-

Jim

ok so what cam do i use if i dont use votec heads?

oh and what does the 106 LSA on the cam recommendation mean?

oh and what does the 106 LSA on the cam recommendation mean?

LSA is Lobe Separation Angle, the 'bigger' of two measurements of valve overlap, the other being lift. Overlap occurs when the intake valve begins to open before the exhaust valve fully closes. You can increase this 'overlap' to a degree by installing larger ratio rocker arms for more lift. The one thing you can't change is lobe separation angle as this is ground into the cam.

Increased overlap leads to better high RPM performance at the expense of low speed performance. In fact, overlap is why a high performance cam will often make the engine 'lope' at a low idle or regular idle speed. Most street cams have a 112 degree LSA, with some of the hotter street cams coming in at 110. A cam with a 106 LSA will not allow the engine to idle at lower RPMs.

Silicon212 is absolutely correct. (Good job!)

To add to what he said, to arrive at the LSA, you add the intake centerline and exhaust centerline togehter and divide by 2. This is in the case you have the lobe CLs, but not the LSA. It's a bit complex, but one can determine these by "degreeing" the cam. That's the process where you install the cam at a "given" point in relation tho the piston at TDC, usually keying on the intake CL.

Also, cams with "wider" LSAs tend to have a broader, flatter power "curve". More narrow LSAs give higher "peak" power, but in a shorter RPM "band".

For a true race engine, in general, a narrower LSA is called for. The more overlap, the better the "scavange" effect (a low pressure area is created by the gasses rushing out of the cylinder, aiding the "in rush" of the new intake charge). Supercharged or turbo-charged engines need LESS overlap than normally aspirated engines. Nitrous engines tend to like more.

You'll need to identify WHICH heads you're actually going to use, and pick a cam accordingly. It's best to have flow numbers, chamber volume, valve size, etc. to be able to pick the optimum cam.

Jim

oksorry it took so long but the head # are 354434 which i plan on porting

i am also goin to use an edelbrock rpm air gap manifold ( ported) with a modified q-jet

and it is going to be a 383 stroker, unless is there any other strokewr kits that will give me bigger cubes?

so wat cam would i use for this set up?

oh also wat size of rods would i use 5.7 or 6 inch, what difference would it make? i rwead somewhere to use as long as a rod as possible to minimize the frictional losses from side loading and cut the engine's mechanical noise. sorry i pasted it

6" rods are the "hot lick". If you buy a rotating "kit" for a racer, be CERTAIN it's FORGED steel crank, NOT a "cast steel" crank.

Cam rules still apply.

Jim

why wat is the difference for both the crank and the rods? anyway wat do u mean by a hot lick, like popular, which rods would u recommend?

i want to put this engine in a small 80,s car i was thinkin somethin like a buick regal anyway i want to make it a manual tranny, wat is the fastest stock manual tranny that will bolt up to a sbc?

The term "hot lick" comes from guitar players, and yes, it means the most popular AT THIS TIME.

A cast crankshaft is very rigid. It's made by pouring liquid steel (or iron, depending on who makes it) into a "fixed" mold. The mold is broken apart when the metal cools, and you have a "raw casting", ready for machining. The advantage is the same as the disadvantage. Because it's very rigid, it is very stable, dimenisionally. That rigidity also makes it very brittle and "unforgiving". Once it reaches the point of failure, it simply breaks. Harmonics (sound waves that are generated and travel throught he crankshaft) are it's biggest "enemy". Castings are good for low-speed power and using an engine for light-to-medium duty.

A "forged" crankshaft is one that begins "life" as an ingot or hunk of steel. It is heated to a near molten temperature and placed in a "die". Another die is forced by high pressure from the "top", hammering or "forging" it into shape. The "raw forging" is then removed from the dies and when cooled, ready for machining. Heat-treating (aligns the surface molecules and hardens the material) is performed after most machine work. Forged cranks are significantly stronger than castings. They are also less rigid (or more flexible, depending on your view). This allows them to be much more "forgiving" in that same high-harmonics environment. Forgings are roughly twice the price of castings (until you get to high-end brand names) due to the more expensive materials and more labor required in the manufacturing process.

For the small block, forgings are infinitely more desirable than castings for "race" engines.


We (CVMS) sell Eagle rods. We've found them to be the most "bang for the buck". The 6" rod offers better geometry internally, than the "stock" 5.7" rod (center to center dimension). Actually, IMO, it's hard to beat the Eagle rotating "kit" (crank, rods, pistons, rings and bearings). The "good" ones range from about $1,400 to as high as $2,000. Avoid the ones that cost under $1,000. They have castings (cranks), not forgings. And not all rods are equal. Eagle h-beams are superior to the otehr imports. Even though they're made from the same raw forgings, Eagle's machining processes are "propietery" and make for a better rod than the cheaper ones.

The term "fast" and transmission are not compatible. A transmission can make a car faster or slower, but particularly with manuals, the driver is more the key to "fast". Installing a manual in a car not so equipped can be a chore. While more "fun" (I'm a "gear jammer" from way back), a manual transmission is not as popular today for a variety of reasons, in a drag car. Consistency is key to winning in today's drag racing. It's much less effort to maintain a consistent performance with an automatic transmission. You will also find the cost of a manual MUCH higher than an automatic.

That being said, if you still want a stick (manual), I would recommend a Jericho (4 speed) or Richmond (5-speed) for any car with serious power. Expect to spend upwards of $2,500 for the whole setup no matter which manual you choose. The Tremac and Warner offerings are popular among the street small block crowds. Whether or not they're up to the rigors of drag racing, I can't say with authority. I KNOW they don't hold up behind the big Pontiacs or BBCs, but small blocks aren't as "hard" on transmissions as the big engines.

For a "bracket" or "hobby" racer, I would recommend PowerGlide for cars under 3,000 lbs. TH400 for cars over 3,000 lbs. Some have success with TH350, but more like TH400.

Jim

ok, its not going to be a serious performer, just a weekend warrior to have some fun in , plus im a student so i dont quite have the budjet for a $1500 rotating kit, i saw an eagle one in the summit catologue for $800 it has a cast crank, 5.7 rods and u can pick the pistons

and for the tranny i was thinking more along the lines of a stock one i could get from the scrap yard out of a stock car, is there a good stock GM manual tranny u would recommend?

thanks for all the help

TH400 is the only one I would recommend "stock". Add a "stage 2" shift kit.

I also highly recommend against using one of the cast steel crankshafts. Budget or not, it will NOT live in a race application. You only want to spend this money ONE TIME. Using sub-quality stuff the first time around will either ruin your "taste" for racing or create a situation where you will spend it again, but on the "good stuff" the second time. If you MUST avoid using the good parts, find a FACTORY Chevy 400 crank and have the mains ground down to fit the 350 block. ONLY the "nodular iron" casting is up to the rigors of racing, and even then in a milder form than the forgings will take. Contrary to what you may believe or your friends might tell you, cheaper is NOT better, nor is it really cheaper in the long run.

It's YOUR money. Spend it wisely. It doesn't cost me a dime either way...(:-

Jim

ok, is there a kit you would recomend for this biuld up and where could i get it?

Also i want a manual to have some fun in, its just goin to be a weekend warrior so it doesnt have to be the fastest, but which stock manual tranny would be the strongest to hold up?

Eagle Specialty Products (662) 796-7374. Ask for Alan. Tell him what you want to do and what advice you're received. It may or may not help to tell him I (Jim from Central Virginia Machine) told you to call. It won't hurt!

It's generally accepted the Muncie 4-speeds were the "class" of manual transmissions during the muscle car era, when manuals were expected to "live" behind high-torque engines. We've learned the Borg Warner Super T-10 is also very tough. Hard to beat the old Ford "Top Loader", too. All of these are getting rather scarce ($$$). For a small block, the Tremec offerings seem to be okay. Those will be 5-speeds. They will NOT "live" behind a big engine. Ask me how I know this... (:-

Jim

Plus, the Super T10 and the Jericho 4-speed are transmissions used behind 850hp NASCAR Cup cars that live for many times 500 miles at 200MPH.

ok mr pbody how do u know this lol anyway what rear end ratio would you recommend, i want to find a posi tract rear end but with wat ratio???

Vic,

I've been asked that before. It boils down to over 30 years of doing it for customers. It's my job to stay "up" on what's happening out there. While my shop "specializes" in Pontiac V8s, if one in our business can't build a potent Chevy, one needs to find a new business. Most of the "locals" run Chevy and believe, since we're a "Pontiac shop", we won't do as good a job on non-Pontiacs. Not so. The two local "big dogs" (REAL racers, not "wannabes") with Chevys have our engines in them, one big block car, one small block. In the lower level circle tracks nearby, they chase our guys around the track... "CVMS has no quarrel with those that sell for less. They know the value of their product!"

Gear ratio depends on car type (chassis), weight, transmission, engine combination, tire size and application (1/8 mile or 1/4?). Clear as mud... I know...

Jim

This thread got "a little" off topic, so..
Sorry Freddy. Your information is inaccurate. Never a 72chevelleohio around when you need one...(:-

Jim
I didnt pay attention to the thread after the 7th post or so, thought it was done. missed it....sorry.
.. Bet it was a leftover LS6 with a/c and everything...:lol: (maybe a special edition called the E-BS6? :wink: )