1995 Buick Park Avenue Just Dies - No Warning


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LadySmith
09-13-2008, 01:39 AM
I have a 1995 Buick Park Avenue. It just randomly will go dead. You never know when it's gonna do it. It could be while you're at a red light or stop sign or while you're slowing down to come to a red light or whatever. But, it can also happen when you're going 65 mph down the road. There's no pattern at all; when it decides to do it, it just does it.

When it does go dead, sometimes you can put it in neutral and it will crank right up..no problems. Other times, it will not crank. Then, after it sits a little while, it will finally crank up.

This can happen at any time. You could drive a 45 min. drive and it not go dead at all. Other times, you could only make a 15 min. trip to the store and it will go dead 3 times. Just whenever it decides to.

The problem seems to have gotten worse over time. It used to be maybe once a month or so, it would go dead only when coasting up to a red light or something or into the driveway and it would crank right up. Now, it will happen when it sees fit (most of the time a few times a day) and sometimes won't crank right back up.

A few weeks ago, I ended up being stranded and had to be towed. That ended up being the upper intake manifold, which my husband replaced, along with an oil/filter and spark plug change. That evidently had nothing to do with this pre-existing problem of the car going dead.

The check engine light is NOT on. There are no codes.

My husband replaced the fuel pump and fuel filter and it is still having the same problem.

We're not sure what it could be. We're going to check all the grounds that we can find and clean them and make sure they're tight.

Things that have been suggested to us are:
- check grounds
- ICM
- crank shaft position sensor
- fuel pump relay
- ECM/PCM
- fuel pressure regulator (FPR)


I've read many threads on a few forums, but in particular, I read this entire thread:

http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=217926&pp=15&highlight=crank+position+sensor+replacement

which has a lot of similarities that my car is experiencing...only I have no codes and I don't have check engine light on or anything like that.

We know how it is when you just start replacing things how it can easily turn into $$$$ (which we don't have much of...LOL) and then it still isn't fixed and you have to go to the next suggestion.

Today the car went dead while idling. It would not start. Hubby checked the line going to the FPR -- no fuel. He got me to turn the switch on a few times and he didn't hear the fuel pump, therefore no fuel pressure. Then, I turned the switch on again and he heard the fuel pump and it would have started (according to him) only the battery was dead. We've got to get a new battery now too I do think because right now my car has been sitting at my mother-in-law's and the other day it wouldn't crank at all...dead battery. As soon as I jumped it off, it cranked. That was just a couple days ago. Today it wouldn't crank, jumped it off, it cranked but idled just a few minutes and went dead (because of this current problem). Then, this issue with the fuel pump not kicking on and at a time that I would have cranked, it wouldn't because of a dead battery.

Anyway, besides a dead battery...this issue of going dead...since at times the fuel pump (which is new) is not kicking in sometimes, what could it be? Or is the new fuel pump we got bad?

Scrapper
09-13-2008, 02:24 AM
get fuel pump put on it see what pressure running? but i say maf sensor is your problem. and when it dies it starts right bak up don't it?

Scrapper
09-13-2008, 02:31 AM
get fuel pump put on it see what pressure running? but i say maf sensor is your problem. and when it dies it starts right bak up don't it? when it dies you have to be ready to hold on steering will because you losse power sterring and your vaccum to brakes it will be a hard pedal so be ready.

good luck..

scrapper1

LadySmith
09-13-2008, 03:03 AM
Hubby put on a new fuel pump and filter and he said it shows the correct pressure, but sometimes it doesn't when it stalls.

It will not always crank right back up. Sometimes it has to sit awhile.

Oh, and I know about the no power steering issue when it stalls....already happened and I have to try to get off the road if it won't crank. Sometimes if I put it in neutral, it will crank right back up, but sometimes it won't and I have to try to coast over to the side of the road (with no power steering).

Someone did mention MAF to hubby, but then he was told that this was something about only when accelerating. My car will die whether accelerating or not. It will die while idling, coasting to a stop sign or red light, or going 65 mph whether the accelerator is pressed or not.

Is there any truth to that about the MAF?

Scrapper
09-13-2008, 05:06 AM
ok have you had the coil pack tested and the module that sets under coil packs? anyway i thought module diid you have that checked? thats the way like i said maf put one on ran fine. but you want to remove coil pack or sometime there three piece remove them and look see if module a a burn on top of it..

LadySmith
09-13-2008, 11:50 PM
ok have you had the coil pack tested and the module that sets under coil packs? anyway i thought module diid you have that checked? thats the way like i said maf put one on ran fine. but you want to remove coil pack or sometime there three piece remove them and look see if module a a burn on top of it..

We haven't had the coil packs tested. We were told that if it was that, the car would probably run real rough. It runs smooth as silk until it dies.

Tonight we had the ignition control module that sets under the coil packs. They ran it through 7 or 8 times and it passed, but when he handed it to me, it was not hardly warm at all..nothing like the engine heat. Should we have it tested again elsewhere?

Also, we've checked some of the grounds...and all seem fine. We even checked the ground busses that run in the driver and passenger door sills and those along the fender. We have not yet checked any of the wiring between the ICM, PCM and crank shaft position sensor.

The dilemma we're dealing with right now about this is...since the ignition control module tested fine, we're thinking it's either the CKPS or the PCM or any of the wiring going to those, which we'll check tomorrow.

Well, the PCM cost way more than the CKPS, BUT the CKPS is a real pain to change out or so I've heard. The guy at the auto parts told us that if we get a PCM and it doesn't correct the problem that we can bring it back. So, even though it cost more, we're thinking about maybe going ahead and trying it instead of trying to tackle the CKPS right now. But first, we're going to check the wiring between those.

A guy tonight tried to tell us it could be the fuel pressure regulator (FPR), but I've read that if it's bad, there would be fuel coming from the vac line to it, and there's not.

Also, somewhere I've read that a test for an oil pressure switch is that while the car is running, you could remove the fuel pump relay and if the engine dies that it's the oil pressure switch. Well, we did this and the engine did die. But, we also did the same thing on my mother-in-law's car (same 3800 engine -- Oldsmobile 88) and her engine died as well. So, I'm not sure about that test.

Ugh! This is driving me nuts!

HotZ28
09-14-2008, 09:38 AM
Anyway, besides a dead battery...this issue of going dead...since at times the fuel pump (which is new) is not kicking in sometimes, what could it be? Or is the new fuel pump we got bad?Obviously, if the fuel pump does not run when you turn the ignition switch ON, you will not have fuel pressure. The fuel pump electrical circuit is quite simple (see schematic below). The PCM provides a ground on the (DG/W) wire for the relay and the ignition switch provides battery voltage. When the relay energizes, (assuming it does) battery power is passed on from the ignition switch (pink wire) through the relay and then on to the fuel pump via the grey wire. Do you have 12v on the grey wire @ the fuel pump terminal (near tank) when the pump does not run?


http://img169.imageshack.us/img169/3259/buickfuelpump9495vinkvija2.gif

LadySmith
09-15-2008, 01:10 AM
OK, got a new battery for starters. LOL :rofl:

Today, we went ahead and put in a Fuel Pump Relay just to rule it out since it's cheap. We looked at a lot of wiring, but boy it's confusing when you're trying to trace where something's going and can't see it anymore. It's almost as if you'd have to pull the whole engine out to find out where it is.

I still haven't been able to find the PCM. We did check the wiring on the ICM as far as we could trace it without removing everything. We checked the ground busses and the wires behind the passenger side glove box.

Hubby used cleaner specifically made for these electrical parts even though he said that they all appeared to be clean and tightly connected.

He cleaned the battery terminals very very well.

He cranked the car and it died after 15 minutes of just sitting there idling.

He heard the fuel pump kick on and said that it would crank and it did. It sit there idling about 45 min or so until we just turned it off to go eat.

When we came back out there, he went under the rear passenger side tire to look at that wiring that goes to the fuel pump. He said everything looks nice and clean, but he cleaned them anyway and reconnected them.

Then, he decided to take a closer look at the FPR. Fuel does not come out of it when you pull that vac line off of it. So, he took it out and examine it. The little filter thing inside that thing was badly corroded. He cleaned that out and replaced it.

Well, he went ahead and cranked the car since it was getting late and we really wanted to get our car out of mother-in-law's yard if possible. It sit there and idled about 30 minutes or so. Hubby drove it home and I followed him in his truck. We got home and the car never stalled any. I got in the car and we took it for several miles. It was running beautifully.

I decided to get him to pull in a gas station and get gas. I wanted to know if this stalling sometimes might have something to do with stop-and-go...like out and about running errands...turning the engine off and then back on, etc.

We went miles and miles and the thing never died once.

Could the corroded fuel pressure regulator have had something to do with it? I mean, could it fail sometimes like when it's stopped up it thinks it has enough fuel and therefore the fuel pump doesn't get the signal to send more fuel?

Hubby wants me to drive around tomorrow as much as I can to see if it stalls. Believe me, I've already put the cash in my wallet for a tow truck in case it's needed...LOL :smile:

I'm just wondering if something he did with the connections back there at the fuel pump or this issue with the FPR might have possibly fixed it.

If this didn't do anything, why is there so much improvement? This problem has slowly been progressing. It started out that maybe once every few months, the car would die while coasting into the driveway or at red lights/stop signs...and then crank right back up.

Then, it just got worse and worse that maybe a coupld of times a week it would go dead even while driving 65 mph. Sometimes it will start right back up and sometimes it takes turning the key off and on a few times and then the fuel pump will kick in and then it will crank.

Then, it just got worse...to the point that I couldn't make it 3 miles down the road without it at least going dead once if not more. I wasn't able to go anywhere on a daily basis with it without it dying on me.

I just wonder if whatever he did fixed it or if we're still going to back at square 1 of trying to figure out if it's the ICM or PCM (by the way, where is the PCM located on this car?).

Is there any way from what I described about it being dirty inside cause the intermittent stalling problem we've been having? Would anything to do with that cause there to be no fuel pressure there on the fuel rail and then turn the key on a couple of times, the fuel pump kicks on and then it will crank.?

Maybe tomorrow I can update if it stalled on me or not.

Scrapper
09-15-2008, 01:36 AM
that sounds like maf. no warning it just dies. other than that coils and modules go bad. stop in the zone and let them check your maf,coil pack plus they can tell if coil pack are all hitting.

LadySmith
09-15-2008, 01:56 PM
that sounds like maf. no warning it just dies. other than that coils and modules go bad. stop in the zone and let them check your maf,coil pack plus they can tell if coil pack are all hitting.

Thanks for your reply. From what I've read, most of the time when it's MAF is when you're accelerating. Is that true? This thing dies no matter if you're coasting, idling, or going 65 mph down the road.

We've thought about the coil packs, but someone mentioned that it would probably run pretty rough if that was it...this thing runs smooth as silk until it just dies.

Well, it STILL isn't fixed. I don't know if the cooler weather last night (along with light misting rain) had anything to do with it not going dead.

But, today I just got back from driving the thing and thought I was going to have to end up getting towed home.

Whatever it is, seems to be progressively getting worse.

I made it about 13 minutes from the house going 65 mph (other cars zoom by at 75+) and the thing went dead. I had no power steering and trying to slow down enough to get off on the side of the road (which isn't paved...it's loose gravel). I put my flashers on and I turned the key on and off several times. I tried to crank several times and it wouldn't. I didn't have a fuel gauge on it, but from experience I know when it does that that the fuel pump isn't pumping. Turned the key on a few more times and then finally the fuel pump starts and the car will start.

Then, I started back home and got about 2 miles from my house and the thing quit again! Luckily this road wasn't as busy. I sat there turning the key off and on and finally after about 5 minutes the thing cranked up and I made it home.

I have to attempt it again after while when I go pick up my son from school. Ugh!!!

Of all these possible things it could be, what is the most likely culprit?

I'm literally going to be bald pretty soon!! http://www.buickforums.com/forums/images/smilies/blink.gif

Scrapper
09-15-2008, 03:40 PM
yes the maf it just dies at any speed. my moms did that and i took it to advanced they check it i thought it was module but no it came up maf.

LadySmith
09-15-2008, 07:02 PM
yes the maf it just dies at any speed. my moms did that and i took it to advanced they check it i thought it was module but no it came up maf.

I've called AutoZone, Advance, and O'Reillys that's here in my town and they say that they can't scan my car since the check engine light isn't on and plus since it's a 1995 (OBD I , I assume). I asked them do they do any kind of testing on mass air flow sensors and they said no.

Isn't the MAF one of the ones that's pretty pricey?

See, I just hate to guess and start putting $$$$ out there on random parts that may or may not fix it.


Update: Hubby talked to a mechanic at our local Buick dealer. He said the first and foremost problem that he would first correct and that it very well could be causing our problem is to change the fuel pump that we just bought (whatever brand Advance sells) to an AC Delco one.

I understand that it very well could be....and in time we might end up getting an AC Delco fuel pump for it, but I just feel that relying on that to solve this problem is a shot in the dark...the same as if we just blindly went and bought an ICM, or ECM, or whatever...in hopes of fixing it.

I'm going crazy here!:banghead:

LadySmith
09-15-2008, 07:17 PM
Oh, and another update:

I went and got my son at school earlier and it didn't go dead any there or back (only about 3.5 miles from my house).

When I got back, I turned the car off for maybe 30 minutes. Then, I went and cranked it up and let it sit there idling for about 30 minutes or so while I sat in the car and watched to see if I saw any lights come on for maybe a split second or any of the gauges go wacky in the event it went dead (because you know when you're driving down the road, you may not necessarily notice it if it's just for a second or something and then goes dead). Well, the thing wouldn't go dead!

I turned it off and let it sit about an hour or so, then cranked it again. It sat and idled a while. I did various things, hoping if I could see ANYTHING that may trigger it. I rolled window down a little, then back up. I turned the radio on, changed stations, turned the air on, up, down, back off a while, back on, gave it a little gas every once in a while, etc...just various things that someone might do while they're driving. The thing still wouldn't go dead!!

I almost guarantee, though, if I even attempted to go 2 miles up the road, it would go dead. :disappoin :crying: :mad: :shakehead :confused: :headshake :banghead: Is there an icon for pulling hair out?! LOL

:1zhelp:

Scrapper
09-15-2008, 08:33 PM
huh advanced did her 92 pa and the only thing that came up was maf i thought 0-2 would come up also but it never just maf then got a friend that gives us discount it was ray rudd buick. they can even take a key and put it to it. they done my 91 s10 i've heard of people say they couldn't get it done on modules but they can coil packs. i had a 87 pa and i couldn't figure it out and had it put on machine at good year ran fine on machine but there was a bad ground on it but they never figured it out where. so i done more research on it and i came up with module so i spent 80 bucks i'm thinking and it ran fine. if they want to do it they can but apears they didn't for you...sorry.....

Scrapper
09-15-2008, 10:42 PM
Oh, and another update:

I went and got my son at school earlier and it didn't go dead any there or back (only about 3.5 miles from my house).

When I got back, I turned the car off for maybe 30 minutes. Then, I went and cranked it up and let it sit there idling for about 30 minutes or so while I sat in the car and watched to see if I saw any lights come on for maybe a split second or any of the gauges go wacky in the event it went dead (because you know when you're driving down the road, you may not necessarily notice it if it's just for a second or something and then goes dead). Well, the thing wouldn't go dead!

I turned it off and let it sit about an hour or so, then cranked it again. It sat and idled a while. I did various things, hoping if I could see ANYTHING that may trigger it. I rolled window down a little, then back up. I turned the radio on, changed stations, turned the air on, up, down, back off a while, back on, gave it a little gas every once in a while, etc...just various things that someone might do while they're driving. The thing still wouldn't go dead!!

I almost guarantee, though, if I even attempted to go 2 miles up the road, it would go dead. :disappoin :crying: :mad: :shakehead :confused: :headshake :banghead: Is there an icon for pulling hair out?! LOL

:1zhelp:

yes that's the 92 did no warning.then you can start it right back cant you?
and then you'll never no when it will die. i know this is second time i replyed back today.hey try to take maf apart and clean the screen then you'll no maf if it is maf sensor.

LadySmith
09-16-2008, 12:42 AM
yes that's the 92 did no warning.then you can start it right back cant you?
and then you'll never no when it will die. i know this is second time i replyed back today.hey try to take maf apart and clean the screen then you'll no maf if it is maf sensor.

I appreciate your help and input...I really really do.

No, it doesn't always crank right back up. It used to and still does sometimes, but here lately more times than not, it doesn't crank right back up. It takes a few times of turning the key on and off and then finally hear the fuel pump kick on and then it will crank. (this is a new fuel pump, sock, and filter btw). So, whatever is causing this causes the fuel pump to kick off.

LadySmith
09-16-2008, 12:43 AM
OK, I've been literally about to go crazy about this. I HAVE to have a car. So, trying to think and think what could the problem be when it's this intermittent...random. Is there any pattern?

The ONLY half-way of a pattern I can think of that I've noticed (and only noticed it since it's starting to get a little cooler out), when the temperature outside is hot, especially during the heat of the day, it will for sure be more likely to quit. The fuel pump quits working at this time. When it's cooler and/or night, maybe even with a little moisture in the air (dew, misting rain), you can let the thing run for 2 hours and it won't go dead. Any relevance?

Now I've heard of electronic things such as the ICM, crankshaft sensor, etc. getting too hot when they're weak...but I mean the engine temperature is staying around 200 and it won't go dead. The only thing I've noticed is it's more likely to quit when it's daytime and very hot outside. It has quit only one time while driving at night that I can think of, but that was on a night following a very high heat index day.

So, am I onto anything here or do I just need to quit overthinking this? LOL

Scrapper
09-16-2008, 01:01 AM
getting to seem like coils get hot or the mudule. take coild packs off see if you see a burnt place on the modue. if not cps. i don't think map sensor..have you tested fuel pressure again and not just once? and have you changed fuel filter? and try some sea foam for your gas.

LadySmith
09-16-2008, 01:23 AM
Oh, and another thing I noticed just this evening (has not happened before that I have noticed and I have really been looking....lol):

Now when you turn the ignition on, but not cranking it...all the panel lights display but cut off after a couple of seconds, but now the Check Engine Light stays on, but when you actually crank it, it goes out.

Does that mean that it has finally set a code?

LadySmith
09-16-2008, 01:27 AM
Is my 1995 Buick Park Avenue is it OBD 1, 1.5 or 2? If I'm looking at the correct thing under the dash kinda to the left of the ashtray, it has 16 pins.

LadySmith
09-16-2008, 01:32 AM
getting to seem like coils get hot or the mudule. take coild packs off see if you see a burnt place on the modue. if not cps. i don't think map sensor..have you tested fuel pressure again and not just once? and have you changed fuel filter? and try some sea foam for your gas.

The coils and module....get hot...i mean the whole engine area does...200 or so. Aren't they supposed to? Hubby had taken the coil packs off and took the ICM to get tested and it test fine, but they only ran it through like 7 times and it was not hot at all when they handed it back. Hubby said he may drive the car to another parts store after getting the engine good and hot and take the ICM off in the parking lot and take it in to get it tested rather than taking it off and taking the part to them to test when it isn't even hot. Maybe more likely to show that it's bad while it's good and warm????

Looking at the ICM and the coil packs look good from what we can tell.

Fuel pressure has been checked several times. It will keep fuel pressure until it shuts off and then it doesn't have it (the fuel pump quits running and shuts the car off, therefore no pressure). So, something is causing the fuel pump to stop pumping intermittently.

Yes, the fuel pump, sock and filter have all been changed (the very first thing we changed). We also filled the tank and put the good Lucas fuel injector cleaner in the tank.

Scrapper
09-16-2008, 02:07 AM
you have that vats sacurety don't you? you haven't tryed to go around it did you because it's shutting the gas off somehow you may have got the wrong pump or bad one. go down at your steering wheel and theres a fine white wire that shuts it down it maybe hitting and missing because it is so small i dont no why they never made it thicker? i guess because they want you in the shop. really don't no but seems like to me way to small. you may have to have another key switch cylender.

LadySmith
09-16-2008, 02:36 AM
you have that vats sacurety don't you? you haven't tryed to go around it did you because it's shutting the gas off somehow you may have got the wrong pump or bad one. go down at your steering wheel and theres a fine white wire that shuts it down it maybe hitting and missing because it is so small i dont no why they never made it thicker? i guess because they want you in the shop. really don't no but seems like to me way to small. you may have to have another key switch cylender.

I'm not sure what vats security is...but it does have some sort of security on it. I'm not sure if it even works because from my understanding of the owner's manual, when you click the power locks to lock the doors and exit the vehicle, the security light is supposed to be on until you unlock the doors. Well, mine has never done that. I know the light works because when you turn on the ignition and all the lights come on and then go off....I do see the security light. It's not staying on or anything. Also, I have 2 keys and have tried both of them just in case. I just don't know... Are you saying that something could be wrong with the small wire going to it...like a short in it or something?

And yes, hubby is really leaning toward replacing the fuel pump with an AC Delco one just to eliminate it.

:banghead: We're about ready to use this thing for target practice or something...LOL

HotZ28
09-16-2008, 06:29 AM
Forget about the security system, it will not cause an engine that is running to shut down. In addition, when atctivated, the security shuts off the fuel injector pulse, not the fuel pump. As mentioned earlier, you need to find out why the fuel pump is not running during the prime, or loosing power while driving! When troubleshooting random electrical pump problems shuch as this, some technicians use a test light on the grey wire @ the fuel pump and make it visable to the driver when starting & driving. When the ignition switch is first turned on, the pump should run for 2-sec to prime the system and then shut off. After the engine starts, the pump grey wire should have constant power (light on the test light)

LadySmith
09-16-2008, 05:35 PM
Forget about the security system, it will not cause an engine that is running to shut down. In addition, when atctivated, the security shuts off the fuel injector pulse, not the fuel pump. As mentioned earlier, you need to find out why the fuel pump is not running during the prime, or loosing power while driving! When troubleshooting random electrical pump problems shuch as this, some technicians use a test light on the grey wire @ the fuel pump and make it visable to the driver when starting & driving. When the ignition switch is first turned on, the pump should run for 2-sec to prime the system and then shut off. After the engine starts, the pump grey wire should have constant power (light on the test light)

Well, today our "only seems to do this when it's hot...in the heat of the day" theory got shot down. Yesterday evening I ran the car for quite a while (maybe 2 hours or so) until hubby got home. Later, the car ran several more hours...until like midnight and never shut off once! Hubby was did use a test light on the gray wire down there and it stayed lit. The thing didn't go dead any, of course, for him to see if the test light went off. He listened and heard the fuel pump the whole time. He was trying to listen and see if it shut off right before the car died, but the car never died! Ugh!

Anyway, after all of that....this morning we went like 3 miles up the road to take our son to school. I sat in the car and bam! The car went dead in the parking lot. It was pretty cool (or at least a lot cooler than it's been being...62-65ish and a dewy morning). We got maybe 5 miles up the road and it shut off again. The fuel pump primed and she started. This is SOO aggravating!

The rest of the day after it went dead those couple of times, were stall-free. We've drove it and drove it and have let it idle and it didn't die anymore.

Yesterday, hubby talked to a mechanic at our local Buick/Chevy dealership and he told hubby the first thing is to get the piece of crap fuel pump from Advance off of there and get an AC Delco one on there. At least that will eliminate that problem and if it still does it, one less thing to consider and focus on diagnosing it another way.

Then, he talked to a very reputable (and very expensive) mechanic that has his own shop that's been working on cars as long as my husband has been alive or longer and again, he said....AC Delco pump first and foremost before you even consider checking anything else. He said the second thing he'd double check is the wiring harness going to the fuel pump. Hubby has checked various wiring, but he didn't take the tank off and look again at the connection to the fuel pump, but said he did look at it when he put it on.

Anyway, we went and bought an AC Delco fuel pump and strainer and hubby is putting it on right now. We'll drive it around after while to see if the car stalls.

And I will definitely tell him if his test light is long enough to fix it where he can see it while driving.

What does this tell...that the computer IS telling the fuel pump to pump if that light stays on and therefore if it stalls then it's a bad fuel pump?

Thanks so much!!!! Hopefully we will get to the bottom of this soon.

LadySmith
09-16-2008, 05:40 PM
And I will definitely tell him if his test light is long enough to fix it where he can see it while driving.

On this statement...nevermind...hubby just told me about splicing a wire onto it and such. I'm a dummy. I was wondering how his test light was going to do this because it probably wasn't long enough....LOL

Actually, I think my brain is fried from thinking about this stupid car!!!! :screwy:

HotZ28
09-16-2008, 08:29 PM
I think you are moving in the right direction now!

What does this tell...that the computer IS telling the fuel pump to pump if that light stays on and therefore if it stalls then it's a bad fuel pump?The test light will tell you if you lose ground from the PCM to the FP relay, or if you lose battery power from the switch and or the relay. Keep in mind, the light will only tell if you have power as far as where the test light is connected, not beyond. Of course, if you have battery voltage all the way to the top of the tank, suspect the FP or wiring inside the tank.

brcidd
09-16-2008, 09:14 PM
I had a '95 PA acted very similar- gages would wiggle, then stall-- relays would chatter with ignition on after the stall and not running- could run 10 minutes idling or 2 hours until it would stall at idle--

I replace the PCM based on comments from internet sites- and all was fine after that- learned that the PCM was very common failure that year....

LadySmith
09-16-2008, 11:09 PM
I had a '95 PA acted very similar- gages would wiggle, then stall-- relays would chatter with ignition on after the stall and not running- could run 10 minutes idling or 2 hours until it would stall at idle--

I replace the PCM based on comments from internet sites- and all was fine after that- learned that the PCM was very common failure that year....

My gauges haven't wiggled. The relays haven't clicked except when my battery was dead and I would try to crank it, I heard the fuel pump relay click and click and click real fast and was told it does that. But, since this issue, we replaced the fuel pump relay anyway.

We may have to end up getting a PCM. I just don't want to get a PCM just yet for it to turn into another thing and another thing and another thing....

LadySmith
09-17-2008, 12:19 AM
I think you are moving in the right direction now!

The test light will tell you if you lose ground from the PCM to the FP relay, or if you loose battery power from the switch and or the relay. Keep in mind, the light will only tell if you have power as far as where the test light is connected, not beyond.

Thank you!!! :wink:

Well, hubby got the fuel pump on and said that all the connections looked real good. The new fuel pump came with a new wiring harness thingy. He checked all of the existing wiring, cleaned them and put some kind of electrical connection protection/dielectric grease stuff he got at the auto parts place.

He said that before he removed the old (new...lol) fuel pump that he double checked the continuity of the wiring to it as well. He said he moved it all around and everything checking it the whole time and that it tested fine.

Who knows? Maybe it was just piece of crap fuel pumps causing this. I guess we'll see.

After he got finished and got the gas back in and everything, he let the car sit and idle. It never died after an hour or so.

Tonight we drove it everywhere...sometimes letting it run/idle (when I stayed in it), sometimes turning it off for awhile, etc...all various speeds. It never died..not even once. :rofl:

So, as for today, with all the driving and idling it's done, the last time it stalled was around 8 or so this morning.

Hubby's gonna drive it to work the next few days to see if it stalls any with him. If it does, he's going to do the "test light" test, which we probably should have done before putting this newest fuel pump on it...lol

But we have confidence! Confidence!!! Keep your fingers crossed! :tongue:

brcidd
09-17-2008, 07:54 AM
The fuel pump relay clicking real fast is not normal-whoever told you that is blowing smoke- and the fact that you changed the relay and the new one does the same is quite evident the PCM is in question - it is supplied a ground from the PCM- which is what is causing it to click real fast- Mine did the same thing- chattered that relay- that is why I changed the PCM- it was only $100- and cheaper than the fuel pump. Maybe luck is on your side- and you have it now- but I think the evidence shows other problems...

imidazol97
09-17-2008, 10:19 AM
Thank you!!! :wink:Who knows? Maybe it was just piece of crap fuel pumps causing this. I guess we'll see.

Hubby's gonna drive it to work the next few days to see if it stalls any with him. If it does, he's going to do the "test light" test, which we probably should have done before putting this newest fuel pump on it...lol

:

I had a fuel pump replaced. Couldn't do it myself because my lead and helper backed out on me, so I ended up in a shop. They are reputable and won't put on anything but Delco. They have tried all other brands through local stores and suppliers, owner said, and they've often had trouble.

After reading more, I consider the extra cost money well spent. Hope the car lasts long enough before I trade it to pay back the fuel pump cost. 165,000 mi.

LadySmith
09-18-2008, 07:59 AM
Update:

Still not fixed :uhoh:. BUT, what all he's done has made it somewhat better because this problem had gotten so progressively worse that it had gotten to the point that most of the time, you couldn't even get 3-5 miles up the road before it would die and it wouldn't crank right back up most of the time anymore.

After he put on the AC Delco fuel pump, he let it run for a long time and then we drove around everywhere and it never died. He drove it to work yesterday morning (approximately 20 miles or so) and since he was early, he let it idle in the parking lot. It went dead but then he was able to crank it right back up.

Then, yesterday afternoon all the way home and it didn't go dead any.

This morning he drove it to work again and it didn't go dead any.

He said that he may do that test light thingy and also put a fuel pressure gauge and tape it to the windshield because whatever is causing this is causing the fuel pump to quit pumping at the time it occurs because there will be no fuel pressure at the rail and you can turn the key on and off a few times and hear the fuel pump kick on (but with the new fuel pump, haven't had to do this because it's only died the one time and was able to be cranked right back up, so the fuel pressure/fuel pump prime wasn't checked at that point since it did crank right back up).

I guess since it has gotten better, that he did some good somewhere in the wiring connections, even though he said that everything looked good.

He's thinking about pulling the PCM into the passenger floorboard and giving it a tap and see if it makes it die.

At this point, could it still be the ICM or crank shaft position sensor, or is it pretty much the PCM or still a wiring issue?

It just seems to me that the problem has gotten MUCH better, but still there, so maybe some little wire somewhere that hubby didn't check on???

Hubby said he's tempted to just keep driving the car until it absolutely just quits and won't start back (because the progressively getting worse problem is bound to make it totally quit)...he said THEN maybe he can figure out the problem. :lol2:

LadySmith
09-18-2008, 08:04 AM
The fuel pump relay clicking real fast is not normal-whoever told you that is blowing smoke- and the fact that you changed the relay and the new one does the same is quite evident the PCM is in question - it is supplied a ground from the PCM- which is what is causing it to click real fast- Mine did the same thing- chattered that relay- that is why I changed the PCM- it was only $100- and cheaper than the fuel pump. Maybe luck is on your side- and you have it now- but I think the evidence shows other problems...

No...the fuel pump relay is not clicking now. It was clicking real fast when the battery was dead, so we assumed because of that that the relay for sure needed to be replaced. After that, a mechanic told him that it will click like that with a dead battery.

But, yeah, we're really looking at probably getting a PCM (unless the ICM or crank shaft position sensor is still an option), but since the problem has gotten MUCH better (only has died the one time at idle after going 20 miles and was able to be cranked immediately instead of 3-5 miles or so and not immediately cranking back up), we're really thinking there could be some wiring problem/corrosion or whatever that hubby hasn't checked.

brcidd
09-18-2008, 09:19 AM
It has been my experience that any wiring problems are at the ends- never in side the conduit- very, very rare-- so look at all terminals and connectors and grounds first if you think it is wiring problems..

LadySmith
09-18-2008, 10:12 AM
It has been my experience that any wiring problems are at the ends- never in side the conduit- very, very rare-- so look at all terminals and connectors and grounds first if you think it is wiring problems..

Does this still sound like some sort of wiring problem to you since it's gotten MUCH better? I know it could still possibly be the PCM, but I'm just wondering since it has gotten a lot better, that it may just be some wire that hubby didn't check.

Are the ICM and/or crank shaft position sensor still possibly culprits or can those be ruled out?

Mickey#1
09-18-2008, 04:26 PM
If it gives you any more trouble then check the driver's side ground bus. The fuel pump wiring has its ground there. Here are some pics showing where the bus is on a 99 Bonneville. Hopefully the Park Ave is in the same area. Once you find the bus remove the metal bar & check for corrosion. If any corrosion is found then clean both the male & female terminals then coat with some dielectric grease and reassemble.

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c120/BCGearhead/Ground%20Bus%20Connector/IMG_7845400x600.jpg

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c120/BCGearhead/Ground%20Bus%20Connector/IMG_7848400x600.jpg

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c120/BCGearhead/Ground%20Bus%20Connector/IMG_7849400x600.jpg

LadySmith
09-18-2008, 05:41 PM
If it gives you any more trouble then check the driver's side ground bus. The fuel pump wiring has its ground there. Here are some pics showing where the bus is on a 99 Bonneville. Hopefully the Park Ave is in the same area. Once you find the bus remove the metal bar & check for corrosion. If any corrosion is found then clean both the male & female terminals then coat with some dielectric grease and reassemble.

Hubby did check both ground busses, but I don't know if he actually checked that little metal thingy there with the teeth on one side and the little circles on the other end. I don't think he took that apart and checked.

LadySmith
09-18-2008, 05:44 PM
Oh, and BTW, Mickey....the reason he even checked the grond bus is because of posts I've read of yours mentioning it. So, thanks! :tongue:

z-bird
09-19-2008, 06:41 PM
Ladysmith
Please post if you find out the problem, I have a 94 park avenue that has the exact same problem. Just dies with out warning some times cranks right back up, sometimes takes 10 min to crank So i am very curious to know what the problem is. So good luck to you , so maybe it will help me :)

LadySmith
09-19-2008, 08:20 PM
Ok, yesterday no stalling whatsoever.

Today, we drove miles and miles here and there. Then, the weirdest thing happened. While going down the road, the little red dash light thingys came on letting us know it went dead. Hubby was driving. He was just about to put the thing in neutral to see if it would crank back up. But, he didn't even have a chance....the little red dash lights went off and it was running as if it had never even tried to go dead. He didn't have to try to crank it or anything.

A little later, when we turned onto our street, it did go dead. Hubby was able to crank it right back up.

I'm still trying to talk hubby into doing the test light thing and the fuel gauge taped to the windshield thing.

LadySmith
09-19-2008, 08:23 PM
Ladysmith
Please post if you find out the problem, I have a 94 park avenue that has the exact same problem. Just dies with out warning some times cranks right back up, sometimes takes 10 min to crank So i am very curious to know what the problem is. So good luck to you , so maybe it will help me :)

When yours dies are you getting fuel pressure? When it doesn't crank...when turning the switch on and off, do you hear the fuel pump prime and when it finally does, the car will start?

If we ever figure out this problem, I will let you know. If you figure yours out, please let me know. Thanks! :)

Scrapper
09-20-2008, 01:59 AM
i think you need to take it to the shop and finally get to what's wrong with it. and a good repution. you did what you could so try to get it in shop.
sorry.

z-bird
09-20-2008, 09:50 AM
Ladysmith

I cant really hear the fuel pump prime at all ,even when the car is running fine
-too many ding dong bells when you turn the key, to hear anything :-(
And i have never been in a position to be able to check on the fuel pressure, i am allways on the side of the freeway or a busy street ( never at home where i can work on it)

But i have had the same situation where the "little red dash light thingys" come on and the car starts right back up. I have had someone tell me it could be the crank triger sensor , but no one will say for sure.
I'm about ready to take over to the south side of town, drop it off with the keys in it and report it stolen lol

C man
09-20-2008, 04:25 PM
Are you talking about the red light were it displays the car battery volts? Have you thought about getting your alternator tested? Just wondering because you said the "little red light" came on and when it went off the car ran just fine.

LadySmith
09-21-2008, 12:29 AM
Are you talking about the red light were it displays the car battery volts? Have you thought about getting your alternator tested? Just wondering because you said the "little red light" came on and when it went off the car ran just fine.

No, I'm talking about all the little red lights...the little round red lights beside each gauge on the dash that come on when the engine dies. I think these lights come on also when you're just cranking the car.

But that day, the car died (the little lights came on), but then they went off and the car was running as if the car didn't die...

The00Dustin
09-21-2008, 09:48 AM
Not that it will be a whole lot of help, but I bought a 1994 Chrysler LHS once. They let me test drive it over night, and I found that it would just die while going down the highway, and then it would start running again. I don't know if it was really dying or not, though, because an automatic shouldn't be able to start running again after three seconds (not like it can bump start itself). When it seemed to die, it would lose power and the tachometer would drop to zero, but I don't think all of the dash lights came on like it had just been turned on afterwards. One of the conditions to me buying the car was that they would find and fix this problem. They did, but I think the resolution was replacing the main computer and all of its modules (glad I didn't have to pay for that). Anyway, little red lights (four?) each indicate that the gauge they are next to has a bad reading (low fuel, high temp, low/high voltage, oil pressure). They come on (and stay on for a set amount of time) when you start the car (along with all of the other lights) just to indicate that they aren't burnt out, this way, if you ever start the car and one of them doesn't come on, you know that light isn't working. That said, without knowing much more about how car computers work, and assuming that all of the other lights come on and you get the dinging normal for turning on the ignition, it sounds like your car's computer either reset itself, which probably would be a nightmare, or (and hopefully this is more likely) it lost power, in which case there could still be a broken wire or a bad ground somewhere causing the problem. I know a lot of wires and connections have been looked at and cleaned already, but considering the fact that the car kept running once, it seems to me like no sensor actually stopped the engine or thought the engine stopped, so perhaps the lights coming on indicate the computer has come back to life and not that the car has died, in which case if the computer reset fast enough (seems like that would have to be pretty fast, which might throw this theory out the window), the car could keep running, but what you thought you were seeing on account of the car dying could be happening after that car has died and when the computer has come back to life. Assuming all of this is possible and true, perhaps it doesn't always start right back up because one of the many sensor readings doesn't match up based on when the computer happens to randomly reset / lose power. Since turning the key off doesn't solve the problem when it won't start for 30 minutes, I wonder if you couldn't disconnect the battery for a few seconds when it won't start, and perhaps then it will start. This would cause all memories to be lost (seats, radio, etc), but it might clear out whatever is keeping the car from starting. Obviously this isn't an especially safe or ideal thing to try when sitting on the side of the road, but it could be tried sometime when it is safe. Of course, even if it worked, I don't know what that would tell you.

Mickey#1
09-21-2008, 11:18 AM
Ladysmith - Are you still having problems?

LadySmith
09-21-2008, 08:40 PM
Ladysmith - Are you still having problems?

Yes. Today, at my request, hubby looked at the ground bus on the driver's side again and took out the metal plate and everything...no sign of any corrosion whatsoever. We live in the south so no snow...salt, etc.

It just baffles me what could be wrong. Today it didn't go dead any at all. We've went short trips, we've went a little longer. The engine has had time to get as hot as was going to. We've let it idle and everything and it didn't go dead any. But, just when you least expect it (when you're surely not wanting it to), it will die.

I asked hubby to really get down and look at the wiring connections going to the crank shaft position sensor. He said he will, but that if he's going to go through all that trouble getting to it, he's gonna go ahead and replace the CKPS.

Hopefully, that will fix it.

Also, sometime this week maybe hubby will take it to another parts store while it's good and hot and remove the ICM in the parking lot and get them to test it again.

LadySmith
09-21-2008, 09:02 PM
Not that it will be a whole lot of help, but I bought a 1994 Chrysler LHS once. They let me test drive it over night, and I found that it would just die while going down the highway, and then it would start running again. I don't know if it was really dying or not, though, because an automatic shouldn't be able to start running again after three seconds (not like it can bump start itself). When it seemed to die, it would lose power and the tachometer would drop to zero, but I don't think all of the dash lights came on like it had just been turned on afterwards. One of the conditions to me buying the car was that they would find and fix this problem. They did, but I think the resolution was replacing the main computer and all of its modules (glad I didn't have to pay for that). Anyway, little red lights (four?) each indicate that the gauge they are next to has a bad reading (low fuel, high temp, low/high voltage, oil pressure). They come on (and stay on for a set amount of time) when you start the car (along with all of the other lights) just to indicate that they aren't burnt out, this way, if you ever start the car and one of them doesn't come on, you know that light isn't working. That said, without knowing much more about how car computers work, and assuming that all of the other lights come on and you get the dinging normal for turning on the ignition, it sounds like your car's computer either reset itself, which probably would be a nightmare, or (and hopefully this is more likely) it lost power, in which case there could still be a broken wire or a bad ground somewhere causing the problem. I know a lot of wires and connections have been looked at and cleaned already, but considering the fact that the car kept running once, it seems to me like no sensor actually stopped the engine or thought the engine stopped, so perhaps the lights coming on indicate the computer has come back to life and not that the car has died, in which case if the computer reset fast enough (seems like that would have to be pretty fast, which might throw this theory out the window), the car could keep running, but what you thought you were seeing on account of the car dying could be happening after that car has died and when the computer has come back to life. Assuming all of this is possible and true, perhaps it doesn't always start right back up because one of the many sensor readings doesn't match up based on when the computer happens to randomly reset / lose power. Since turning the key off doesn't solve the problem when it won't start for 30 minutes, I wonder if you couldn't disconnect the battery for a few seconds when it won't start, and perhaps then it will start. This would cause all memories to be lost (seats, radio, etc), but it might clear out whatever is keeping the car from starting. Obviously this isn't an especially safe or ideal thing to try when sitting on the side of the road, but it could be tried sometime when it is safe. Of course, even if it worked, I don't know what that would tell you.

Yeah, I'm really wondering if it is some wiring going to the computer shorting out or something and then making a connection again...especially since that ordeal the other day, where it never really died but was going to. Hubby swears that as long as this has been going on that if it was a connection, it would have already shorted out and wouldn't even start by now...that the wire would have gotten burnt into, etc. I'm still thinking there's some sort of short in a connection somewhere. But, I don't know....I'm a dummy when it comes to this kind of stuff, but I'm learning A LOT here!

LadySmith
09-21-2008, 09:12 PM
For the CKPS, hubby wants to get AC Delco. Is that what y'all would recommend or does it matter on that? I found one that's not an AC Delco for $28 that has a lifetime warranty.

Scrapper
09-21-2008, 09:34 PM
yes i think your right cps i think i said that before? because they crack and that's how to set your timing.

LadySmith
09-21-2008, 10:18 PM
yes i think your right cps i think i said that before? because they crack and that's how to set your timing.

Yeah, I'm hoping that will fix it. I would just hate it for it not to fix it...just guessing at this. But, it's at least a cheap part, but probably not a fun job for my hubby. But if it will fix it, it will be worth it.

At 161K miles, it more than likely could use it anyway even if it doesn't fix it. Oh, how I hope it fixes it.

Scrapper
09-21-2008, 10:31 PM
yes and he needs to rent the tool if he can that sets it right in place don't forget to use locktite on those jaws that the cps he replacing that it sets in. you can set them with brass feeler guage but the the right tool is so much easier and correct to set it with. i don 't know if autozone rents those? if he has a friend that works for a dealer i'm sure he'd let you borrow it because it don't take long.

good luck...

HotZ28
09-22-2008, 01:12 PM
yes and he needs to rent the tool if he can that sets it right in place don't forget to use locktite on those jaws that the cps he replacing that it sets in. you can set them with brass feeler guage but the the right tool is so much easier and correct to set it with. i don 't know if autozone rents those? if he has a friend that works for a dealer i'm sure he'd let you borrow it because it don't take long.

good luck...
Once again, the 95 uses a CKPS as shown in the pic below; it is non-adjustable and has a dowel pin to locate the sensor. It does not require setting with a feeler gage, or the special CKPS setting tool! 1992 was the last year for the "adjustable" CKPS! :grinyes:


http://img115.imageshack.us/img115/7229/1995ckpshe5.jpg

LadySmith
09-22-2008, 01:34 PM
Once again, the 95 uses a CKPS as shown in the pic below; it is non-adjustable and has a dowel pin to locate the sensor. It does not require setting with a feeler gage, or the special CKPS setting tool! 1992 was the last year for the "adjustable" CKPS! :grinyes:


http://img115.imageshack.us/img115/7229/1995ckpshe5.jpg


Thanks HotZ28! Hubby will probably have to rent/borrow the harmonic balancer puller tool for this, though. I don't think he has one, but he may have a friend that has one.

I tell you what, if it ends up being this CKPS (crankshaft position sensor), I haven't decided if we're gonna frame the old one, make a plaque or something using it, use it for target practice or what...but that little piece causing someone SOOOO much trouble!!!! :lol2: I just hope it fixes it! This is just a guessing game/process of elimination. :shakehead

HotZ28
09-22-2008, 07:22 PM
Thanks HotZ28! Hubby will probably have to rent/borrow the harmonic balancer puller tool for this, though. I don't think he has one, but he may have a friend that has one. The puller should look like the one in the pic below. Usually, they will not have the right bolts included! You will need three 6 mm X 1.0 X 80 mm bolts for the exact fit. Some people use 1/4 X 28 X 3-1/4 bolts; however, the threads in the harmonic balancer are 6 mm X 1.0.

I tell you what, if it ends up being this CKPS (crankshaft position sensor), I haven't decided if we're gonna frame the old one, make a plaque or something using it, use it for target practice or what...but that little piece causing someone SOOOO much trouble!!!! :lol2: I just hope it fixes it! This is just a guessing game/process of elimination. :shakehead It is possible you have had several problems in tandem! Do not assume that the CKPS was the only problem, it has nothing to do with fuel pump operation, that was obviously a separate issue! :grinyes:




http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/8205/balancerpullergg0.jpg

Scrapper
09-22-2008, 08:39 PM
yes 92 is the last one of my moms was ajustable so they changed it again huh? looks the same but they got rid of both of them the rear brakes always screwed up. so my dad drives a ford ranger and mom drives a cry town and country van or suv what ever you want to call that.i do agree on shooting the pa if they'ed been mine yup shot. but hell thats the only thing you haven't replaced isinet? GOOD LUCK...

LadySmith
09-22-2008, 09:29 PM
yes 92 is the last one of my moms was ajustable so they changed it again huh? looks the same but they got rid of both of them the rear brakes always screwed up. so my dad drives a ford ranger and mom drives a cry town and country van or suv what ever you want to call that.i do agree on shooting the pa if they'ed been mine yup shot. but hell thats the only thing you haven't replaced isinet? GOOD LUCK...

No, the only thing we've replaced is the fuel pump, strainer (twice...AC Delco second time) and filter. We also bought a new battery because the other one died (was about 4 years or so old). Hubby cleaned many wires and made sure they were connected tight. And oh yeah, the fuel pump relay. That's it. We have gotten the ICM tested, but it tested ok. Haven't replaced ECM/PCM (which could possibly be the problem still..but hopefully not).

LadySmith
09-23-2008, 08:25 AM
Well, another example of how random this is....yesterday hubby drove it to work. No stalling at all to and from work.

This morning, it died on him twice on the way to work.

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