Our Community is 705,000 Strong. Join Us.


Need help ASAP, 1989 f150 dual tank stalls and is getting no fuel


CanukGMC
08-18-2008, 03:35 PM
The quick and short version of what happened:

I have a 89 F150 4x4 lariat with the 302 8cyl and dual gas tanks. I was driving to work and the truck died. I have spark and enough juice to turn it over so I must be getting no fuel. When I turn the key to the on position I do not hear the fuel pump whine as it primes, it's dead silent. I'm assuming the fuel pump is dead.

Are there any fuses to check?

I did check the switch that goes off when in an impact and it was not tripped off so it's not the problem.

My hayes manual (which i find is wrong ALOT) says that 87-89 f150's have a single fuel pump that is external to the tanks and found along the left frame rail? Can anyone confirm? Someone told me they thought it might have 2 pumps but I switched tanks and the truck still didn't start (or make a fuel pump sound) so unless the planets aligned and BOTH pumps blew simultaneously I would assume there's only 1 pump.

A quick call to NAPA and they told me they have 6 pumps listed for this year!

My main concern is if anyone can confirm if this is an external pump like my hayes manual says. I'm going to climb under the truck after work and try to find this mysterious pump along the frame rail but I'd hate to be looking for something that doesn't exist. I just really really hope it's not in the gas tank, there's so much rust (this is an 800$ beater) I just don't see a gas tank extraction going well. Thanks for any quick replies!

rhandwor
08-18-2008, 06:59 PM
If you ever changed the fuel filter the external pump sits next to it. The problem some do and some don't have one. If you have one they have a small primer pump in the gas tank. If you have an external pump take a test light and make sure you have power to the fuel pump. If an in tank pump check for power at the plug.
If no power check the fuel pump relay along side the drivers side fender it is green in color.

CanukGMC
08-18-2008, 09:36 PM
If you ever changed the fuel filter the external pump sits next to it. The problem some do and some don't have one. If you have one they have a small primer pump in the gas tank. If you have an external pump take a test light and make sure you have power to the fuel pump. If an in tank pump check for power at the plug.
If no power check the fuel pump relay along side the drivers side fender it is green in color.

Thanks for the reply. I looked on the drivers framerail beside roughly where the tranny is and there is what I think is the fuel pump mounted there. It's tucked in behind the front driveshaft for the 4x4, has (from what I can feel) power lines running into it and what appears to be fuel lines going in and out.

When clicking the key forward and backward I can hear (and feel) the fuel relay on the drivers fender clicking inside but NO sounds at all are heard after that (no buzz or whine from the pump). I think the pump is dead, I'm having a real hard time telling how the thing is mounted in there as well, I think maybe I should buy a new one (gag, 220$) and then be able to tell how it's in there and replace it.

Have I missed any steps anyone? Sound like a dead pump? Thanks again for any info.

Scrapper
08-18-2008, 09:58 PM
go to autozone.com and it will tell you about pump and where it's located. i never said you have to buy there it's just a thought.i buy at car quest.

Selectron
08-18-2008, 11:10 PM
Just because the relay clicks, that doesn't mean it's working properly - the switched contacts could be pitted or dirty, and unable to pass sufficient current.

One check which you can do very quickly is to test for voltage at the inertia fuel shut-off switch, using either a meter or a 12V test lamp - it should receive 12V briefly as the fuel system is primed when the ignition is switched to the Run position. Depending where the switch is located, you'd probably need an assistant to turn the key while you check for voltage.

If you have a meter or a test lamp it would be worth making that very quick check before spending cash on a new pump.

Selectron
08-18-2008, 11:48 PM
Just giving this a little more thought, and if you have the inline high pressure pump, you'll also have a pump in each tank so if you aren't hearing any of them then that's almost certainly an electrical fault and you'd be wasting time and money replacing a pump.

I'd suggest having an assistant turn the key while you get your ear right down close to the tanks and verify for sure that the in-tank pumps are silent. If all pumps are silent, then you likely have an electrical fault between the fuel pump relay and the inertia switch.

The wiring diagram below covers the years '87 to '89 and it looks like you'll have to do some electrical fault-finding. It's a simple circuit - when the relay is energised, current flows via the relay's switched contacts to the inertia fuel shut-off switch, and then takes two paths - one path feeds the inline high pressure pump, and the other path goes to the tank selector switch - one of the two in-tank pumps will then receive current via the switch, depending on which tank is selected.

If you're not too handy at reading wiring diagrams or if you're not too sure about electrical fault-finding then let me know and I'll go into it in more detail.

'87 to '89 fuel pump diagram (http://www.freewebs.com/selectron/87-f150-fuel-pumps.pdf)

spytearbite
08-18-2008, 11:57 PM
collapsed fuel line from one tank to the next or the solenoid pump is short, in-op, etc.

CanukGMC
08-19-2008, 07:18 AM
Just giving this a little more thought, and if you have the inline high pressure pump, you'll also have a pump in each tank so if you aren't hearing any of them then that's almost certainly an electrical fault and you'd be wasting time and money replacing a pump.

I'd suggest having an assistant turn the key while you get your ear right down close to the tanks and verify for sure that the in-tank pumps are silent. If all pumps are silent, then you likely have an electrical fault between the fuel pump relay and the inertia switch.

The wiring diagram below covers the years '87 to '89 and it looks like you'll have to do some electrical fault-finding. It's a simple circuit - when the relay is energised, current flows via the relay's switched contacts to the inertia fuel shut-off switch, and then takes two paths - one path feeds the inline high pressure pump, and the other path goes to the tank selector switch - one of the two in-tank pumps will then receive current via the switch, depending on which tank is selected.

If you're not too handy at reading wiring diagrams or if you're not too sure about electrical fault-finding then let me know and I'll go into it in more detail.

'87 to '89 fuel pump diagram (http://www.freewebs.com/selectron/87-f150-fuel-pumps.pdf)

Great info, thanks a ton. I'd love it to just be the relay, I'll head out now and see if I can measure voltage at the plug going into the intertia switch while turning the key. I'm guessing I'll see a 12v spike (or any spike for that matter) if the relay is working fine. I was under the truck last night looking for the fuel pump (in line) and had my brother turning the key on and off while I was under there to confirm there was NO sound from the pump itself (and not that maybe it was just real quiet because something was seizing in it) and there wasn't even the slightest sound, also while under there I very closely listened for the tanks pumps as well and heard nothing, I didn't put a stethoscope to the tanks to check for sounds but I'd assume the pumps would make more noise than the relay I could hear clicking in the engine bay. I'll post what I find in a bit. Thanks again


EDIT: I pulled the plug to the intertia switch, ran a voltmeter over the 2 points (on the harness) and got anywhere from 0.00 to 0.003v when in the off position and 5.8 to 5.9v in the on position. Could the voltage be too low? I'm not sure if the pump needs a direct 12v or if the 5-6v showing is enough. I again listened carefully and unless the tank pumps are extremely quiet heard nothing other than the click of the relay when turning the key. I also jumpered the intertia switch harness and still had no sounds so the switch must be good. I've unplugged the tank selector and will start testing voltages along it but from the wiring diag I think the selector would have little to no effect on the in line pump at the very least.

EDIT 2: Using the wiring diagram I checked the tank selector circuit. None of the colours matched what was on my harness (power for example seemed to be coming from a yellow wire with a white stripe). I don't think the colour matters though. I could read (from the power wire) anywhere from 3-6 volts accross all the prongs with the key in the on position, with it off I got nothing accross anything. I popped the dash apart and tested the switch, from the left side three prongs I could get continuity from the middle pin of the three to the upper and lower pins with the switch in either selected position but never both at the same time, the right side was the same thing. So I'm pretty sure the switch is ok. What sucks is that I have no parts in town, I live in a remote area and have to order all my parts ahead of time. I think I may need to just order a new pump and see what happens, I have no idea how the wires are attached to the current pump as I can only feel around but can't see what's going on and I don't want to just start pulling on them to see if they "let go" and end up breaking a harness. I guess worst case I order a new pump, look at it to see how the old one comes out (thanks for the NO pictures and NO help hayes manual, ever so useless again) and then remove the current one and replace it hoping for the best unless anyone else has any ideas? I'm totally stumped and NEED my vehicle, I literally live on my own lake in the forest and can't walk to work, I've been either hitching a ride or been praying a friend won't mind driving 30mins out of his way to come pick me up <sigh>. I swear new things break everytime I fix something else, I should just leave stuff broken so nothing else will break.

spytearbite
08-19-2008, 08:29 AM
I would more like take my test light and peg to ground each (+) hot wire path to each relay/solenoid/inertia switch, etc. until the light loses current to ground and from say... The first test light out of ECM box #8 has current up to junction brown to the solenoid switch to the inertia relay.
If there is a connector you can remove off of either relay, remove it and ground your test light at that junction (brown wire) path forks of to both the solenoid fuel line switcher and the inertia switch both have (+) current to said component.

Then, jump to the next wire out of said relay/solenoid so the )+( is still flowing to the next solenoid/relay...

As far as your low voltage? Those are the analog voltage signals the ECM or computer computes. Meaning, 0-to5V is how you read the analog as you throttle up say is that rheostat switch like a house light switch?
Where, a batter reads at max volts on down. Meaning, the ECM needs 12V like the headlight and tail lights and all that is non-sensor'd runs at 12Volts, give or take a few Ohms resistance and all that is wire resistance you are chasing and finding out your wire output to the calls for that 0-to-5V you are reading now.

To me without giving all that detail, it seems you are hitting some good (ECM = Volts-Out Signal) voltage type numbers.

CanukGMC
08-19-2008, 08:41 AM
K good to know on the volts, makes sense the voltage would step up as the pump needs to flow more. Since I'm showing proper voltage at the intertia switch then it has to be outputting volts from everywhere before that so the relay must be switching and outputting as well at the ecm. I guess the fault has to be below the intertia switch which basically means at the pump itself since it's just wire and then the pump on the end. The entire circuit isn't dead (I should have mentioned) switching tanks does change my gas gauge to reflect the switching action (one tank is only half full so when I switch to it the gas gauge reads appropriately). I have a feeling that either the pump itself is totally dead (and shorting internally) or maybe the wire running to it is broken\corroded. Unforuntately I'm having trouble telling how it's even hooked up to the pump itself and I think the only good way I have is to reverse engineer how it's in there by buying a new pump unless someone can confirm for me how the wires attach to the pump? Some kind of harness? It's so hard working on something when you have no idea what it looks like and are going entirely by feel.

Selectron
08-19-2008, 08:53 AM
I'm not sure exactly how you've measured the voltage at the inertia switch, - if you've taken the connector off and put both meter probes across the two connector terminals then that's the wrong method.

The connector should be left connected to the switch and you should try to probe into the back of the connector. So the meter's negative lead would be connected to a known good ground point, and the positive lead would probe into the back of the connector. If you can't get a probe into the back of the connector then pierce the wire with a sharp pin and measure voltage via the pin. The wires should be a brown one and a pink/black, and it's preferable to measure the voltage on the pink/black.

According to the wiring diagram, the pumps are not variable-voltage, so you should have the full 12V on that wire.

If you used the correct method and you got a reading of around 6V then you're dropping voltage at some point prior to the inertia switch, and the most likely suspect would be the relay. You could try unplugging it, scraping the relay's external terminals clean and then re-inserting it, but if the switched contacts are pitted/dirty internally then that won't help and it would need to be replaced.

You're correct in saying that the tank selector switch would have no effect on the inline pump even if the switch were faulty, so I wouldn't even bother looking at that right now.

If you've already measured the voltage correctly at the inertia switch and if it's low, then start looking for a problem prior to that point.

If you weren't using the correct method then that would be the next step. If you find that you do indeed have the full 12V then the problem is at a point beyond the inertia switch.


Edit: I wrote that before I read your second edit. If you're only getting 6V or less at the selector switch then you probably were measuring the voltage correctly at the inertia switch so the fault is probably prior to that point.

You could check the other relays and if you have another identical one which is feeding something non-critical (horn relay for example) you could try temporarily swapping them.

spytearbite
08-19-2008, 09:04 AM
According to the wiring diagram, the pumps are not variable-voltage, so you should have the full 12V on that wire....If you used the correct method and you got a reading of around 6V then you're dropping voltage at some point prior to the switch, and the most likely suspect would be the relay.
Yep, my point exactly. You are in the diagnostic mode and have; ECM readings and Battery readings. Since Selectron uses the abstract that you should have 12v to the relay components, it would seem there is a resistance that is half grounding? 6V are being grounded is hard to believe but I am not that sharp in the diagnostics.

I use way too many variables not knowing the product in hand. So, now you know more or less in the generic abstract, a battery uses 12V as opposed to ECM voltage reads (0-6V give or take a few 10ths) is so complex, Solect makes it look way too easy.

rhandwor
08-19-2008, 06:32 PM
Pull the cover off the external fuel pump. Disconnect the positive wire then use a voltmeter and if you have 12 volt buy a new pump. You can run a temporary wire from the battery and connect to the pump. If it runs the truck follow the wire to the connector check for voltage at this point. My diagram says 12volt from the relay to the pump. Check the wire color at the pump it should be the same color at the relay terminal.

CanukGMC
08-20-2008, 04:39 PM
Thanks for the replies. I've been out there literally kicking the truck for a while. New pump is in so I could tell how it's hooked up finally. Dropped the front driveshaft (ujoint promptly fell apart, hurray more work to do) and CURSED my face off at the way the electrical was connected. It's on some kind of suction cup rubber boot forced onto the ends so pulling and PULLING AND PULLING with pliers wouldn't even remove the terminal ends until I snapped and yanked INCREDIBLY hard and ripped the boots right off (yeah I know). Measured the volts at the two wires that go into the fuel pump with the volt meter at 20v setting and got 0 when key is off and 0.01 when the key was turned on. Pressed them up against the (completely different) terminals on the new pump and nothing happened.

I'm friggin losing it on this one. I just don't know wtf the problem is and everything is so rusted and hidden and seized I'm going nuts. I want to just shortwire the relay but it has some kind of plastic lid over it that I can't get off for the life of me, I'll probably just snap it right off and improvise a fix for later, I need this truck running and I'm going nuts here.

rhandwor
08-20-2008, 05:56 PM
For a temporary repair use a standard SR-106 Relay or cross reference. I used one of these for my tractor horn. Buy 25 foot of No.12 wire and 10 foot of no.16 wire. Buy an inline fuse holder with a 20amp fuse. Buy terminals after looking relay and fuel pump connectors. Connect from the battery positive at always hot side of starter relay. Use a splice connector to heavy 20 amp fuse holder both sides connect to battery side of relay. From solenoid side run a No.12 wire to the fuel pump connector. Use tie raps and tie to wiring harness.
Use silicon and seal all connectors and use a good quality crimping devise.
Note another wire should to intank pump make sure it is connected.
Find a space in the fuse panel for acc. note this only gets power when key is turned on. Hook up no.16 wire from here to the relay I terminal. This is a steel relay and the ground is the mounting bracket. Clean and a place to mount this using a self tapping metal screw buy after looking at relay. Remember to buy a fuse also. This way you can use the truck until proper repairs are completed.
Don't use accessory to play the radio while setting waiting for somebody as the fuel pump will be running. Remember the rool over valve won't work this way unless you run the power to it and it is still hooked to the pump.
Always do electrical work when rested not mad as you will make much more progress. I would try a temp hot to roll over connector push button disconnect and if it runs wire to this point.

CanukGMC
08-20-2008, 06:07 PM
I think partial success! <knock on friggin wood>

I reconnected the old pump (hoping to return the new one as I never did use it) and started hacking away at the relay. Not sure how it is on other models but the "relay box" on my fender is just 2 relays hidden under a plastic lid of sorts (that does not open) and screwed into a metal bracket on the airbox. The screws were SO deteriorated that they were perfectly round and had not bit size to remove them (or hex size if they used to be bolts). Again I noticed the relay appeared fine but was pissed and got the grinder out. I hacked the "relay box" off the mounting bracket and using a screw driver unlocked the secret tabs that hold the stupid things into that plastic lid (only accessible from the underside before I cut it out). I popped out what I believed was the fuel relay (was right, it's green in colour) and it appeared perfectly fine.

I started brake cleaning the wires to see the colours on the harness so I could start shorting them to force the pump to run and a big yellow wire FELL right out of the harness clip, completely rotted a neon green colour at the tip. Interesting. I clip the end off and short it to the brown wire terminal and I hear a faint sound under the frame. I try an crank the truck and sure nuff the battery is now dead. I hooked up my other truck with some jumper cables and when I short the brown to yellow sure enough I hear the pump fire up like old times (with almost a whiny sound like a buzzer). I try and crank the truck but it BARELY turns over so the batt must be REALLY dead. It's on the charger right now, hopefully it'll turn over. I'm not sure if you can even buy these harnesses? There's sort of a "junk yard" in town, maybe he has one of these trucks and I'll just transplant it.

In the meantime I'm going to see if the truck will run while shorted. I'm assuming this fuel system has a bypass for the pump so if they engine and injectors are not needing the fuel supplied it cycles back into the loop and doesn't just blow a line right? So much frustration lol, and it may be at an end. <knock on wood>

rhandwor
08-20-2008, 06:16 PM
Buy a new relay if you butchered it up. The two big terminals are for the fuel pump hot wire. The two small terminals are used to turn on the relay. Unplug the relay use a jumper with a no.12 wire and two male connectors. Plug into the relay base if the pump runs I would try a new relay and fix the connectors. If you go to the junk yard buy the relay and connector and connect it in use silicon on all connections.

CanukGMC
08-20-2008, 07:26 PM
ARGH. Ok now I'm losing it. Got spark, can hear the %$@% fuel pump running on the frame rail, crank till the batt dies and not even a friggin sputter! Wtf is the brown relay directly beside the green fuel one? It looks exactly the same, it clicks when I wiggle it around and seems to cause clicking on the green one. It's yellow wire is fried too and the prong inside the thing is toasted as well. Wtf is it? I'm losing it I know, but this is days without a truck and living in the bush is NOT a good combo for someone with a job.

rhandwor
08-20-2008, 07:55 PM
The brown one is the EEC power relay. This relay has to work to supply control power for the fuel relay. I guess a trip to the scrap yard to get both relays and the plugs and wires is a job for tommorrow. Read the column on swapped tranny no fuel for a good write up on the two relays.

CanukGMC
08-20-2008, 09:27 PM
Tnx for all the great help guys, sorry if I'm comin off a bit panicky but life's hard without a vehicle here. I noticed when I short the main wires on the brown relay I hear a click in the engine somewhere and in the green fuel relay. The wires are all messed up around those 2 relays so I'm going to see if I can clip and get both relays and the wires from the junker and solder that in place to see what will happen.

ANY other info or ideas would be awesome, I'm off work tomorrow so I'm hoping to figure it out. Right now when shorting the green fuel relay the fuel pump on the frame rail DOES in fact run now and up in the engine bay I can hear what I assume is fuel gurgling in a line or something behind the engine near the firewall, it cranks and cranks and cranks but never even sputters, tested and confirmed full spark and the plugs are bone dry so no fuel is still getting in. Switching to either rear tank did not change anything.

rhandwor
08-21-2008, 04:48 AM
Pull the air nozzle off and spray some starting fluid in the engine should run this will verify that you have spark and it is a fuel problem. This is between the air flow meter and the engine.
I think when both relays are working it will run.
If a fuel problem disconnect the inlet line to the big fuel pump on the frame the small pump in the tank should put out about 3 to 7 psi this is what primes the main fuel pump. You can pull the vacuum line for the fuel pressure regulator and if it has gas in it replace it.
If more extensive testing is needed this is the type of tools needed.
http://www.autopart.com/tools/toolsmain/tool/T_3440.htm
Use search for this number 3441 These verify fuel pressure and power to injectors. I think when you get power to the brown relay you will have power to the injectors.

CanukGMC
08-21-2008, 10:59 AM
Pull the air nozzle off and spray some starting fluid in the engine should run this will verify that you have spark and it is a fuel problem. This is between the air flow meter and the engine.
I think when both relays are working it will run.
If a fuel problem disconnect the inlet line to the big fuel pump on the frame the small pump in the tank should put out about 3 to 7 psi this is what primes the main fuel pump. You can pull the vacuum line for the fuel pressure regulator and if it has gas in it replace it.
If more extensive testing is needed this is the type of tools needed.
http://www.autopart.com/tools/toolsmain/tool/T_3440.htm
Use search for this number 3441 These verify fuel pressure and power to injectors. I think when you get power to the brown relay you will have power to the injectors.

Rewired relays.
New plugs on both.
Turn key, clickclick and the fuel pump spins up.
Crank engine NOTHING
Hosed a ton of starter fluid into the throttle bodies with the rubber tubes pulled off. Nothing. wtf

Still has spark.

Totally lost and beaten at this point.


PS finally burnt my haynes manual. 3 $#@ paragraphs on what a fuel pressure regulator does and not ONE description or ONE picture of where the $%@$#@ thing is. I hate that book.

spytearbite
08-21-2008, 11:43 AM
Starting fluid will blow the heads off or move the studs as in lift the engine up off the mounts.

Just be careful, drop a shot glass or two down the throttle body and it should suck that vapor is did you check compression?

1. Fuel = Yes I have spark
2. Spark = Yes I have gas to pour in
3. Compression is then one more variable is how easy is that engine spinning?

Now, you might have a spark and that is like a moment if not the crank sensor? Did you do anything at the transmission wire harness? You have the speed sensor is the spark to fuel pump shut you down 85mph limiter... OK, say 92mph and it falls on it's face is check the trans for a lost signal?

Crank sensor has no code, (2 wires only). ECM has no code saying I am dying so change me out. You have a good known ECM. YOu have that charred book reading the ohm's resistance on the crank sensor?

No, I mean that crank sensor is not close enough for spec... I mean it is within spec or toss it.

spytearbite
08-21-2008, 11:46 AM
Starting fluid will blow the heads off or move the studs as in lift the engine up off the mounts.

Just be careful, drop a shot glass or two down the throttle body and it should suck that vapor is did you check compression?
Since my edit is inop, I meant gasoline use as a starting fluid and roll the thing out of the garage or there goes the place up in smoke.

CanukGMC
08-21-2008, 11:49 AM
Starting fluid will blow the heads off or move the studs as in lift the engine up off the mounts.

Just be careful, drop a shot glass or two down the throttle body and it should suck that vapor is did you check compression?

1. Fuel = Yes I have spark
2. Spark = Yes I have gas to pour in
3. Compression is then one more variable is how easy is that engine spinning?

Now, you might have a spark and that is like a moment if not the crank sensor? Did you do anything at the transmission wire harness? You have the speed sensor is the spark to fuel pump shut you down 85mph limiter... OK, say 92mph and it falls on it's face is check the trans for a lost signal?

Crank sensor has no code, (2 wires only). ECM has no code saying I am dying so change me out. You have a good known ECM. YOu have that charred book reading the ohm's resistance on the crank sensor?

No, I mean that crank sensor is not close enough for spec... I mean it is within spec or toss it.

I don't even know if I'm using starting fluid right for this type of engine. Is there an easier way to spray it in? The TB's are on their side stacked so they face the front of the engine, spraying into them while holding the plates open seems to get some in there but alot runs out too. I thought I heard it sput 1 single power stroke a few mins ago while out there yelling like a madman and spinning the starter but I may have been hearing things.

My problem here is that I really can't see 4 things all crapping out mysteriously at the exact same time. The wires on the relays were rotted right out, I drive dirt roads everyday, finally they broke loose and cut my fuel (no fuel pump would run AT ALL). It was not a catrostrophic impact that broke them loose at all. I have since got the fuel pump running again but now it really won't start. Spark, fuel sounds, and crank, NOTHING. I'm so so so lost at this point.

Where is the pressure regulator anyone? The useless book says nothing of it's even relative location. I tried following the fuel line but it literally goes into the back of the engine and disapears. Everyone in previous threads seems to find and replace it like cake, I don't even know where the damn thing is.


EDIT: OK THIS TRUCK DEFIES LOGIC. It has spark and the spark is timed out right, pulses in regular flashes I can hear with the crank of the engine. STARTING FLUID IN THROTTLE BODY= NOTHING
GAS IN THROTTLE BODY=NOTHING

Throwing this truck out. Gas+air+crank+spark=not even a sputter. It's cursed.

spytearbite
08-21-2008, 12:15 PM
I would run way up the wire harness and rebuild what was rotted out. I think one wire from ground or hot say just opened the loop. There is your short to open, not to ground or you would blow a fuse.

There is a specific fitting on the fuel rail to check fuel pressures. Most of the fuel rails have this for diagnostics and this is how you spec the rails for pressure. Usually something like 44psi is a workable injector.

Man, If I could match colors back to the muddy tank connectors, you could just rewire it and off you go. I mean, you lost more a wire than a component? Hard as it is for you as it is for the net speak is get that tweak is back up and running.

Take a funnel, a clear clean tube (no grit crushing onto the valve seats or grit scraping the cylinder wall is you want this as clean as possible. So, you shove the clear tube down the plenum and there you go. Pull the tube and close the air cleaner over it so no backfire lights the car up.

Take your time and do it closing down that furnace on the reverse is a saved care took half a minute you keep filling the funnel is close the furnace door.

spytearbite
08-21-2008, 12:26 PM
Remember, that crank sensor going out of spec and forget about everything else. So think computer car is the engine has good compression is a running engine... sans how it starts up be it carb or injector. But say now you think m more like a no-start computer vehicle is generic no start is = Faulty Crank Sensor ~ Shows false spark is not spec/ is fuel pump also in the loop to show low pressure is shut down the pump or, Fire!!!! IN THE HOLE! Someone stop the fuel pump!

So, what is the spec number on the crank sensor is the same before you throw parts at it not covering your azz is basic/ Compression NUmbers/ Crank sensor NUMBeers is you are swapping parts as fast as you are driinking yourself silly swapping out part$!

CanukGMC
08-21-2008, 01:00 PM
I'm having a hard time understanding this.

The truck is fubared.

GAS

Gas
Air
Spark

It has all these and won't even putter. It can't be anything fuel related at this point because i DUMPED gas into the friggin TB's themselves and it still wouldn't fire. Called the only mech in town and he said he had NO idea and probably couldn't fix it. Comforting huh? Guess I'm just fucked at this point. Totally and completely. Thanks ford!

rhandwor
08-21-2008, 01:09 PM
Normally the pressure regulator is on the fuel rail. Don't spray gobs of starting fluid a few squirts will run an engine. Make sure your air filter is fairly clean a trip in the mud can plug the air intake.
Take a 12 volt test light and put it on the coil negative the light should blink as you crank the engine. If it doesn't blink get another distributor at the scrap yard. It takes a special puller to change the pickup. My 1999 manual shows a distributor not a camshaft position sensor. The module can be tested free at Auto Zone or Advanced. You can also try a scrapyard module.
You can lose compression by wiping the cylinder walls with fuel. In this case pull plugs and squirt oil in the cylinder. Crank over with the plugs out then reinstall plugs.
Try using a test light and make sure the injectors are getting fuel.
Calm down you will figure it out this is good training.

spytearbite
08-21-2008, 05:52 PM
You can lose compression by wiping the cylinder walls with fuel. In this case pull plugs and squirt oil in the cylinder. Crank over with the plugs out then reinstall plugs.
Wait!!!! You do not lose compression with fuels. You have the gas being pushed out the exhaust. If you lose compression, then the crank will not turn is hydraulic lock being the cylinder chamber is full to the brim with liquid and you can't compress liquid too well or too much is a stuck crank and a heating up starter motor.
Bent valves, blown head gaskets, piston ring end gap are some of known compression losses. I doubt you will find compression loss when you have liquid pushing up against the ring groove to ring is a better seal under compression, not loss of compression. What do you think makes the pistons all pushed up against the cylinder wall but pressure behind the ring.

You may have tripped up on the compression, but I would pull a plug and see how wet-fouled they are? If they look sooty wet... Then change the plugs, do not prime the car is it should start right up.

CanukGMC
08-21-2008, 05:59 PM
Wait!!!! You do not lose compression with fuels. You have the gas being pushed out the exhaust. If you lose compression, then the crank will not turn is hydraulic lock being the cylinder chamber is full to the brim with liquid and you can't compress liquid too well or too much is a stuck crank and a heating up starter motor.
Bent valves, blown head gaskets, piston ring end gap are some of known compression losses. I doubt you will find compression loss when you have liquid pushing up against the ring groove to ring is a better seal under compression, not loss of compression. What do you think makes the pistons all pushed up against the cylinder wall but pressure behind the ring.

You may have tripped up on the compression, but I would pull a plug and see how wet-fouled they are? If they look sooty wet... Then change the plugs, do not prime the car is it should start right up.


There is no compression loss. As stated previously the plugs are BONE dry which means fuel is leaving the fuel pump, going to the engine, and not making it in. Not to mention it's defying the laws of logic by NOT even firing with starting fluid or gas itself. It's at the "shop" right now, dragged it there with some chain. Either he can fix it or it's off to the boneyard with the thing. I'm just done with this.

Am I mad? Of course. I've never seen an engine get fuel spark and air and NOT fire. Yes fuel may not be getting in via the pump but I sprayed some in the TB's and got nothing. It makes no sense. I have no way to get to work. I live in the forest literally and can't even buy food unless I hitch a ride. Up here a vehicle is everything and I don't have that now. What's worse is that I can't even afford one right now so if this doesn't get fixed I really dunno what's going to happen. Enough of my sob story, u guys were great, thanks so much for the info.

rhandwor
08-21-2008, 07:06 PM
A badly flooded engine will lose compression. The air will blow past a piston ring with no oil. It does not happen frequently but a couple weeks ago my carburator needle and seat leaked on my lawn mower. To start it I pulled the plug and blew out the gas. I squirted oil in the piston because the starter rope was very easy to pull no compression. I put the plug back in and it started right up. The next time I used it I cleaned out the carburator. Many times I've checked compression if low I added oil if it jumped way up it needed rings. If it stayed the same it was a leaking valve. I've also had to do this on carburated engines if the needle and seat stuck open. It doesn't happen much anymore but he indicated he put a lot of fuel in the engine.

CanukGMC
08-21-2008, 07:09 PM
A badly flooded engine will lose compression. The air will blow past a piston ring with no oil. It does not happen frequently but a couple weeks ago my carburator needle and seat leaked on my lawn mower. To start it I pulled the plug and blew out the gas. I squirted oil in the piston because the starter rope was very easy to pull no compression. I put the plug back in and it started right up. The next time I used it I cleaned out the carburator. Many times I've checked compression if low I added oil if it jumped way up it needed rings. If it stayed the same it was a leaking valve. I've also had to do this on carburated engines if the needle and seat stuck open. It doesn't happen much anymore but he indicated he put a lot of fuel in the engine.

Yeah I've heard of that b4 too. Sorry if I mislead in my previous posts, when I said I poured fuel in I don't mean I got retarded with it, I know too much of anything in the fine balance of an engine is too much. I started with starting fluid spray, it failed, the engine sat for about an hour or two, then I tried spritzing fuel into the TB's. The plugs are bone bone dry and a nice tan brown colour, definitely no flood of any kind. I'm praying the shop gets it going again, if they figure it out I will post what happened for anyone else searching and reading this.

Scrapper
08-22-2008, 12:59 AM
yes that gas going in oil will eat your main bearings then you mise well forget about your engine and have it rebuilt..good luck..

spytearbite
08-22-2008, 02:16 AM
To start it I pulled the plug and blew out the gas.
I think you might be contradicting yourself. Notice how you had to remove the gas. The compression is caused by both static tension the ring is sitting in and a pressure rise you pulling the cord. Now, push the piston up and pucker your cheeks.

Did you make kinetic energy where you can see that pressure build to cause compression? If the piston is moving up, and the pressure is building, tell me your lips are not in ring tension even more than static dead no pressure at all but the static tension on the ring against the piston on the rise is your pressure on your lips to keep your lungs from exhaling.

Think about it. You had to pull the plug to remove way too much gas, right? And now. tell me when you pull that crank and there is splash of oil up against the cylinder and the piston is not soaked with oil on the skirt on the one stroke, or say two pulls on the crank and you pulled way more than 2 revolutions. So there is your oil'd wall you never lost oil on the crank splash is one oil type lube called, "Splash." The other is "Pressure lube" with an oil pump.

Defy my logic or simple physics. Who is correct? Did you have an open intake valve or a leaky valve where the tension is hard to break that round water ball, but it can roll like a slinky through the ring gap and find the next ring gap; till all the way down the crankcase.

Now, I've seen gas in crankcases is never lost a bottom end. Again, would you kindly tell me when there is more oil than gas is just thinner oil. Does a 2-stroke engine blow up and seize from too little oil and gas mixed is that the 2-stroke lives on a blend of oil and gas mix. So, once again, how are you about to ruin an engine with the oil ratio way more than straight gas, say for argument sake?

Did I nail both of your simple plysicks? Are you in agreement or can you bring more evidence that I present to your abstract is my counter abstract to a T. Sore EEE. :headshake

Tell me I'm a poser. Excuse me? :icon16:

W-T-Katt
08-23-2008, 04:35 PM
A very common problem is for the wires going into the fuel pump relay corroding at the terminal. You can't tell until you jiggle each wire. More often than not, one will pop right off due to corrosion. Just do whatever you can to replace the terminal onto a good section of that wire. Cheap and simple fix. Had this happen to me on an 85, 86, 87 and 89 broncos. all different motors...smae problem with each. Hope this helps.

CanukGMC
08-27-2008, 06:51 PM
It spent 4 days at the shop and even they couldn't figure out exactly what was going wrong. After day 2 the spark disapeared as well, he figured since I changed the outside ecm on the distrib it must be the part inside it. Rather than pour money into the POS just to have it die again I scrapped it. He kept the truck, didn't charge me for the labor and I sold the helper springs and rear tires for 200$ so at least it wasn't a total loss.

rhandwor
08-27-2008, 07:55 PM
Are you walking or did you buy a new truck?

Rasp
08-27-2008, 08:56 PM
I'll observe a moment of silence for obviously a very good truck. It will be missed. lol.

CanukGMC
08-27-2008, 09:37 PM
Yeah that truck will be missed, it had alot of character, beater character, but some none the less.

Personal end of the story: I work as a fire ranger and we've had RECORD rainfall this year so I'm making little to no money, luckily my wife does well as a nurse. I've wrangled borrowing a friends truck for work for now and this weekend I'm getting a ride to the city to browse trucks. Maybe even a brand new one this time, it's a real gamble living where I am and not having a reliable truck can actually be a pretty big achillies heel if you will. Thanks again to all who replied, and to anyone searching for an answer to a similar problem sorry I couldn't figure out what it was.

rhandwor
08-28-2008, 07:33 AM
I was looking for a Ford CV on ebay this car had 11,000 mile 2008 it was buy it now for 13,000 which is a big drop for a 2008. It also had a warranty.
Look around a friend bought a Dodge diesel a bank repo. The bigger vehicles are cheaper at this time. Do some internet search for new Ford F-150 if this is what you want.

CanukGMC
08-28-2008, 08:15 AM
I was looking for a Ford CV on ebay this car had 11,000 mile 2008 it was buy it now for 13,000 which is a big drop for a 2008. It also had a warranty.
Look around a friend bought a Dodge diesel a bank repo. The bigger vehicles are cheaper at this time. Do some internet search for new Ford F-150 if this is what you want.

Tnx for the info, it's definitely a buyers market for pickups thanks to the gas prices, hopefully it all works out soon.

dan fitz
04-28-2013, 11:42 AM
i know this is a 5 year old post, but couldn't help noticing it. my 88 Ff250 had fuel problems, both tanks had internal pumps but the problem was the"dual pump reservoir" had failed and wouldn't switch over when asked to do so. no electrical connections to it, it responds to pressure from the chosen tank pump. very expensive part, so i picked up two at a junkyard, have one in reserve. lots of posts about it on the web under "dual pump reservoir" as i recall, and although this post was focused on the electrical, i thought this might be helpful as i'm guessing the OP's dual tanks have the same setup as mine with the reservoir in between. after the reservoir i believe there was another single hi-pressure pump to boost it to injector pressure but it's been awhile since i did this and i take care of several vans and trucks of this era.

Add your comment to this topic!