I miss spelt Intelligent on purpose, because there is nothing intelligent about it.

But this is hilarious:

http://www.uncommondescent.com/resources/

:popcorn:

Sit back, and.....it begins....


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAH

AAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAH


My neck hurts.

I hope no one here actually believes this shit, for those who want hardcore proof that evolution took place, watch this one hour video (last hour is Q&A):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVRsWAjvQSg

It's pretty much awesome.

The professor talks about how evolution works, why it works, where it comes from, and supplies his arguments with factual and scientific evidence that the ID argument was thrown out of an American court because ID advocates couldn't refute the proof laid by the smart guys. I love education.

There was one guy who said that if you already believe something all the facts will support your theory. I take it ID is some Religious BS and all books should be discontinued in printing as its a waste of paper. =p

:confused: For someone who doesn't believe in religion, you sure spend an awful lot of time researching/posting about it....:confused:

Are you secretly worried your making the right decision, or does hate rule all?? :evillol:

I just read the preamble on their site and decided to go no further. When they say “At the same time, intelligent design (ID) offers a promising scientific alternative to materialistic theories of biological and cosmological evolution” it becomes obvious that they are trying to substitute spiritual or mystical beliefs in place of material evidence.

There is no physical evidence for intelligent design, nor will there ever be. There is overwhelming physical evidence for evolution to the point that it is ridiculous to even attempt to argue against. If anyone disagrees, they haven't picked up a modern biology textbook in 30 years. Case closed.

I think intelligent design and the theory of evolution should not be compared at all. Everyone knows that sides will be taken, much like sports of course, and that it will be an ongoing battle...as is everything involving religion and politics. Plus, considering ID to be an alternative to evolution sounds like having two different options of medicine to treat an illness. I personally feel that something can be taken from both points of view and as a result, assemble my own theory on how things work...because we all want to evolve on a daily basis.

:confused: For someone who doesn't believe in religion, you sure spend an awful lot of time researching/posting about it....:confused:

Are you secretly worried your making the right decision, or does hate rule all?? :evillol:


History and origin of religion is a fascinating topic.

On topic, NSX, ID is the belief (from Christianity) that Genesis is an accurate historical acount. It takes into acount the creation of man kind and life as we know it, occured roughly 6,000 years ago.

Intellegent Design is just a cover up for Creationism. The courts managed to prove that.

my biggest problem with the so called "literal interpetaion" of Genisis is that when it says the earth and heavens were created in 6 days. who's days where they? before the earth was created there was no "earth day" to reference so how long is a day to god, a being that has always been and always will be? maybe his days a lot longer relative to ours witch would put the year dating off as well.

i like the way the catholics have come to term with it. god creates thru evolution.

C'mon guys, Intelligent Design is too easy a target.....

The reason that it's intelligent is that evolution works.

The truth is, we can't be sure with the information we have whether we were created or evolved....everything is speculation without proof.

What proof we have of evolution is just that - proof of evolution. People say "prove God exists" well, you can't....that's what faith is.

In any event, if this picks up a bit we'll move it to Philosophy. :)

my biggest problem with the so called "literal interpetaion" of Genisis is that when it says the earth and heavens were created in 6 days. who's days where they? before the earth was created there was no "earth day" to reference so how long is a day to god, a being that has always been and always will be? maybe his days a lot longer relative to ours witch would put the year dating off as well.

i like the way the catholics have come to term with it. god creates thru evolution.

I went to private schools from kindergarten through my last year of college. I remember once when I was little that the ages for some of the people in the Old Testament were rediculous. I think Abraham was in the hundreds of years old or something like that.
If you look at things now, there are less people within the Church trying to force views onto others like they used to. The Good Book and its teachings were literally just teachings, and I don't know how people got to take it so literally with the events it "chronicled." But I do know that both teams need their allstar players in order to make competition fierce. By that I mean religion has ID and non-religious/agnostics have evolution and maybe something else.

i'll post it again:

THE TRUTH (http://www.funnyordie.com/videos/81bc2f14f0)

...

I think ID is way easier to accept than other theories. ID: God created Earth. God has always been and will always be here. Evolution or Big Bang Theory: A boom created the universe. Then EVERYTHING evolved from one single-cell bacteria.... Yea right. Explain to me where the bang came from.

Anyway, like poster fredjacksonsan said, "..that's what faith is." Either idea or theory takes faith, neither can be proven 100%.

BTW: I imagine most of you guys who support the evolution theory obviously learned most of it in school throughout one's early youth days. So it was kind of drilled into your brains, while Christianity was only something you have heard about, but not actually taken time to really learn about. I'm 19 and have spent the last few weeks learning about Christianity, there is tons of proof supporting it, even scientific proof. I didn't even know til recently that even dinosaurs and cavemen are mentioned in the Bible.
You just have to take time to learn about each side before making your final judgement.
Just my two cents.

Edit* I found this tonight. Now, I'm all for believe what you want, and good for them for being conned into something so retarded but this is just pathetic.
http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=761951
What happened to that statement Davo?

bmx419gt, you may have a point there on the ease of acceptance of either side. People generally like the simpler answers to their questions. Also, since these are just theories, they can be changed, and are therefore not 100%...which we already agree on. But since you have only been spending a few weeks learning about it, there is still a long ways to go...it is too interesting to pass up.

I was raised Catholic, went to private Catholic and Jesuit (college) schools from ages 5-23, and studied more than one religion. Yet, I still believe that the theory of evolution still has more pull than the simpler explanation. But, that is my choice. I also know that just because I was surrounded by religion, nothing was forced upon me (opposite of what you said about evolution being drilled into our young minds.) to accept God as the Creator. I don't know about other schools but I learned about evolution in second grade, right when I made my Communion.

I also wonder how many public school kids went to Sunday school/PSR to learn about religion when they were little. Seems to me that when I was a kid, every public school kid had to go...because religion had more influence over people than it does now with all that controversy they always face.

...Did anyone go to the link and understand what I was pointing fun at?

BMX, I think you are studying the wrong side of the religion.

Oh, and edit, too, I don't mean to be a complete asshole, but there actually isn't any evidence. At all. Ever.

If you want to study Christianity, study the existence of Jesus. The truth will shock you.

since these are just theories, they can be changed

Theory and belief are not interchangable words.

Belief:
1: a state or habit of mind in which trust or confidence is placed in some person or thing

Theory:
1: the analysis of a set of facts in their relation to one another

If you want to study Christianity, study the existence of Jesus. The truth will shock you.

Part 1

http://zeitgeistmovie.com/

Davo, what's with your sudden rabid crusade against Christianity?

...Did anyone go to the link and understand what I was pointing fun at?

BMX, I think you are studying the wrong side of the religion.

Oh, and edit, too, I don't mean to be a complete asshole, but there actually isn't any evidence. At all. Ever.

If you want to study Christianity, study the existence of Jesus. The truth will shock you.

Well from what I have learned many events(if not all, I really don't know) in the Bible have actually occured in history. That is, prophecies that have been fufilled thus far and other events. Yet, your telling me there isn't any evidence. Right? If that's the case then how would we even know the stuff in our history books is truth? There's evidence for non-religious history and I deduce you believe it. So why not Christianity?

None of us would believe anything if we questioned it enough. Again, neither theory or idea can be proven 100%. So we may never know.

Theory and belief are not interchangable words.

Belief:
1: a state or habit of mind in which trust or confidence is placed in some person or thing

Theory:
1: the analysis of a set of facts in their relation to one another

I don't know how you got that out of my opinion, but nonetheless you're right. Theory and belief are not interchangable, but the problem is just that. Theories are taken as beliefs and cause problems because we think that someone has to have the right answer out there and we want to believe in that answer to all those great questions of the universe. But I still stand by what I said: Theories can be changed and so can beliefs, based on the fact that we continue to learn something new each day...and everything we learn can change what we think about things in life. People have a choice to believe in whatever they want, as long as it gets them to where they want to be.

Well from what I have learned many events(if not all, I really don't know) in the Bible have actually occured in history. That is, prophecies that have been fufilled thus far and other events. Yet, your telling me there isn't any evidence. Right? If that's the case then how would we even know the stuff in our history books is truth? There's evidence for non-religious history and I deduce you believe it. So why not Christianity?

None of us would believe anything if we questioned it enough. Again, neither theory or idea can be proven 100%. So we may never know.

I can think of two at the top of my head that were blatant lies:

The census that Caesar Augustus' apparently ordered (which brought Mary and Joseph to Nazarath) never happened.

The mass murder of all infants under the age of two, under order of King Herod, never happened and was proven a biblical fable.

Also, there is not one shred of evidence to support a theory that there was any Jewish uproar in Egypt (Moses), not anything out side the bible that depicts his "journey" which was actually, also blatantly ripped off from a previous Babylonian story. As was the flood. As was the resurrection.

Also, just to be a dick, all four Gospels can't agree with each other on the resurrection.


You should read up on the Gnostics, and the council of Nicea. If you really want to study a religion, study it's core of beliefs. You will find they don't even fit with the original, was thrown out in a court of favorable beliefs and pieced together to prevent civil war.

This thread takes the piss out of the Intelligent Design website, that their resources are "Coming Soon!" which I found hilarious!

BMX: If you read up on the Judo-Claudian Dynasty (Heir's of Julius Caesar) from about 45B.C.E to about 70A.D the history in the Roman Empire is amazing. There are some books that also describe the political and social evolution at this period in time that helped Christianity spread throughout the empire. It's a fascinating area of topic!

Toskins: BMX is genuinely interested in this area, I don't blame him, it's a great area. Any argument in this area is touchy I know, but when you actually know the works, then it's not hard put an idea forward without raising eyebrows.

Ummm are we talking about Creationism or ID? From what I understand they're two different topics. Creationism is the creation of the world according to the Bible. ID is that a "power from above" had a hand in why things are the way they are and that ID isn't forced to just one religion like christianity.

Anyway, ID doesn't seem looney to me. Personally I find it funny that athiest are just like the ones they're laughing at. Oh well, what are you going to do? I'm going to go get drunk.

...Did anyone go to the link and understand what I was pointing fun at?

I guess I didn't.
Anyway, I think it's somewhat pointless continuing this debate. Although interesting, I do not think anyone is going to change someone else's mind on their beliefs. Thanks for the research topics Davo. I am genuinely interested in knowing where we came from.

BTW, completely off-topic. The reason it's been so long since I've posted a reply is because everytime I clicked this thread title, it only loaded up to my first reply. And not anyone else's after mine, until today. It wouldn't even show my last post, prior to this one. Anyone have an explanation? Thanks.

BTW, completely off-topic. The reason it's been so long since I've posted a reply is because everytime I clicked this thread title, it only loaded up to my first reply. And not anyone else's after mine, until today. It wouldn't even show my last post, prior to this one. Anyone have an explanation? Thanks.God was trying to protect you from all the blasphemy...

Ummm are we talking about Creationism or ID? From what I understand they're two different topics. Creationism is the creation of the world according to the Bible. ID is that a "power from above" had a hand in why things are the way they are and that ID isn't forced to just one religion like christianity.

Anyway, ID doesn't seem looney to me. Personally I find it funny that athiest are just like the ones they're laughing at. Oh well, what are you going to do? I'm going to go get drunk.

ID is Creationism.

They one in the same. They changed the name to sound less religious in a ludacris attempt to have their religious views forced into public American schools.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitzmiller_v._Dover_Area_School_District

ID and creationism both, ok well they're the same, but they are the belief that the world was created, by Intelligent Design 6,000 years ago. It throws out modern science, completely ignores known scientific evidence and claims most of the knowledge we have gathers (completely independent of each other) as lies by the scientific community. This, I have a problem with.

The courts proved it was the same, and the name change (which occured between editions in a '87 text book my Michael Behe) from Creationism to Intelligent Design.

There is no physical evidence for intelligent design, nor will there ever be. There is overwhelming physical evidence for evolution to the point that it is ridiculous to even attempt to argue against. If anyone disagrees, they haven't picked up a modern biology textbook in 30 years. Case closed.


I agree, pick up a biology book. When you realize just how complex the human body is and how all processes and things in the body work together in the body, there can be no ohter explanation other than a CREATOR. All things gravitate to a "lesser" energy state over time unless "excited" if you will. Thats physics. Kinda throws a wrench in that whole evolution idea (evolution within a species is completely defferent by the way)...........but thats just my opinion.

I can think of two at the top of my head that were blatant lies:

The census that Caesar Augustus' apparently ordered (which brought Mary and Joseph to Nazarath) never happened.

The mass murder of all infants under the age of two, under order of King Herod, never happened and was proven a biblical fable.

Also, there is not one shred of evidence to support a theory that there was any Jewish uproar in Egypt (Moses), not anything out side the bible that depicts his "journey" which was actually, also blatantly ripped off from a previous Babylonian story. As was the flood. As was the resurrection.

Also, just to be a dick, all four Gospels can't agree with each other on the resurrection.


You should read up on the Gnostics, and the council of Nicea. If you really want to study a religion, study it's core of beliefs. You will find they don't even fit with the original, was thrown out in a court of favorable beliefs and pieced together to prevent civil war.

This thread takes the piss out of the Intelligent Design website, that their resources are "Coming Soon!" which I found hilarious!

BMX: If you read up on the Judo-Claudian Dynasty (Heir's of Julius Caesar) from about 45B.C.E to about 70A.D the history in the Roman Empire is amazing. There are some books that also describe the political and social evolution at this period in time that helped Christianity spread throughout the empire. It's a fascinating area of topic!

Toskins: BMX is genuinely interested in this area, I don't blame him, it's a great area. Any argument in this area is touchy I know, but when you actually know the works, then it's not hard put an idea forward without raising eyebrows.

Davo,
You statemen that all 4 gospels don't agree? Well, they shouldn't be the same. It basically a biography of Jesus life (older years) told by 4 different authors. However they are very similiar. If they were absolutely identical, that would cause me great worry as I would look at it as an attempt to make up a story. In a court of law, if two witnesses gave the exact same testimony, it would be throw out immediately. Can't remeber the term for this in a court of law.

If the ressurection were a lie how could it have lasted threw all these years? Why would early christians give up there lives to spread a false gospel following the ressurection?

Also I am not sure I agree with your "lies" accuation in the Bible. From what I understand, archeological evidence is agreeing more and more with what the Bible says. In addition I don't believe archealogist have been able to "disprove" something in the Bible yet. Granted they have yet to prove many things.

I am not asking your to believe in God, but what is the reason for trying to disprove it to the world? A genuine Christian is probably the most kind hearted individual you will ever meet. The world should be so lucky to have them. There is a God shaped whole in all or hearts, otherwise this debate would not exist. There are those who believe it, and there are those who do eveything to try and not believe it.

Davo, what's with your sudden rabid crusade against Christianity?

I'm also interested in this response. I don't want this to sound like there are couple people ganging up on you but when are you going to get sick & tired of trying to disprove the validity of God's holy word.

As stated by Johnson the gospels of Bible were written under inspritation of the holy spirit. There are also countless examples of the prophecy of the Old Testament being proven in the New Testament of the Bible.

I don't mean to go totally off topic but note that the Bible also is historic when in the book of Daniel it speaks about the fall of earthy kingdoms.

I hope that you just give up on your notions and trust in faith...

When you realize just how complex the human body is and how all processes and things in the body work together in the body, there can be no ohter explanation other than a CREATOR.

What created God?

Davo,
You statemen that all 4 gospels don't agree? Well, they shouldn't be the same. It basically a biography of Jesus life (older years) told by 4 different authors. However they are very similiar. If they were absolutely identical, that would cause me great worry as I would look at it as an attempt to make up a story. In a court of law, if two witnesses gave the exact same testimony, it would be throw out immediately. Can't remeber the term for this in a court of law.

If the ressurection were a lie how could it have lasted threw all these years? Why would early christians give up there lives to spread a false gospel following the ressurection?

Also I am not sure I agree with your "lies" accuation in the Bible. From what I understand, archeological evidence is agreeing more and more with what the Bible says. In addition I don't believe archealogist have been able to "disprove" something in the Bible yet. Granted they have yet to prove many things.

I am not asking your to believe in God, but what is the reason for trying to disprove it to the world? A genuine Christian is probably the most kind hearted individual you will ever meet. The world should be so lucky to have them. There is a God shaped whole in all or hearts, otherwise this debate would not exist. There are those who believe it, and there are those who do eveything to try and not believe it.

I'm also interested in this response. I don't want this to sound like there are couple people ganging up on you but when are you going to get sick & tired of trying to disprove the validity of God's holy word.

As stated by Johnson the gospels of Bible were written under inspritation of the holy spirit. There are also countless examples of the prophecy of the Old Testament being proven in the New Testament of the Bible.

I don't mean to go totally off topic but note that the Bible also is historic when in the book of Daniel it speaks about the fall of earthy kingdoms.

I hope that you just give up on your notions and trust in faith...

You guys sound a lot alike, do you know each other?

What created God?Someone looking for an easy way to manipulate millions of people. :grinyes:

You guys sound a lot alike, do you know each other?

Fellow brothers in Christ.

What created God?

If you go back far enough you can question anything. What created the "nothing-ness" that created the big bang. There are some things that we will never understand or know this side of eternity. The belief in God is based on faith. Having a relationship with Him however helps you relizes just how real HE is. When you hear of and see things he has done in peoples lives and what he has done in your own you see just how real He is. Put your faith in science or in a loving creator that wants nothing more than to have a realtionship with you. Thats your decision to make.

"Life with Christ is Endless Hope, Life without Christ is a Hopeless End"

Fellow brothers in Christ. :eek7: ? :dunno:

Fellow brothers in Christ.

does that mean fridays is three-way night for you guys?

does that mean fridays is three-way night for you guys?

The unfortunate thing is that "Eternity" is no laughing matter as you will one day find out...........but if it helps you sleep at night to ridicule Christians, so be it. Lucky for you, I have a heart for non-believers and will continue to try and spread the Gospel. My job is only to spread the Good Word, its up to the individual to except it or not.

Why are people so scared of Christians? It like the world is out to get us. I mean, people are killed in other countries b/c of it. I think it boils down to the fact that the thought of being held accountable for your actions to God just doesn't sound good to people. As a Christian you ARE held accountable and will be judged someday. Or maybe deep inside we all know its right. God states in the Bible that his laws are written on each of our hearts.

Why are people so scared of Christians? It like the world is out to get us. I mean, people are killed in other countries b/c of it. I think it boils down to the fact that the thought of being held accountable for your actions to God just doesn't sound good to people. As a Christian you ARE held accountable and will be judged someday.

and what makes this different to any other religion?
what makes Christianity the one and only possible true faith?
Why is it not possible that you are wrong and that it is one of the others that is "true"?
Satan is the king of lies, right? Is it not possible that Satan has been masquerading as God to Christians, leading the way to the wars throughout the ages? I mean, lie and deceive; that's why he does, right? How do you know that you are not the ones being deceived?

If you go back far enough you can question anything.
So you don't question ANYTHING in the Bible?

If a girl came up to you today and said she NEVER had sex, but shes pregnant what would you think?

If some guy on tv said "I can part the sea", would you really believe him?

I'm not making fun of your belief in God. Something had to happen for us to be here today. I find it strange how most people say "the Bible says...." and the counter is usually always something like "Science proves...."

....good thing I'm not a good listener, or follower. Otherwise, I would be scared about who is really "right"..:wink:

and what makes this different to any other religion?
what makes Christianity the one and only possible true faith?
Why is it not possible that you are wrong and that it is one of the others that is "true"?
Satan is the king of lies, right? Is it not possible that Satan has been masquerading as God to Christians, leading the way to the wars throughout the ages? I mean, lie and deceive; that's why he does, right? How do you know that you are not the ones being deceived?

Christianity is the only religion that talks about a God that loves you and wants a personal relationship with you. It not a religion about good works, rules, and regulations which you will see in a lot of others. Its about a "relationship". If you have a solid relationship with God you are naturally going to want to be obedient so the good works, etc. with follow suit. Kinda like if you love your parents you try to be obedient to them. Granted nobodies perfect so you will fail/sin. Howver, this is another difference in Cristianity......the grace and mercy of God. He knows you are not perfect and will screw up. Your human. However, if you are sincere in your asking for forgiveness, he forgives. Christianity is like the PERFECT parent/child relationship. As your parent he wants nothing but the best for you and will love you know matter what, even if you don't love him.
While I believe that Satan is a very powerful person, masquerading around as God I don't believe is one of his attributes. Biblically they are two different people and I take the Bible to be the absolute truth. They are poeple of completely opposite character with completely opposite goals and objectives.
In regards to what if I am wrong? Well then I will will go threw life with a heart for God and All individuals, die, and that its I guess. If I am right, I have an eternity waiting for me in heaven. Win, win in my book. What if you are wrong and the Bible is absolute truth?

So you don't question ANYTHING in the Bible?

If a girl came up to you today and said she NEVER had sex, but shes pregnant what would you think?

If some guy on tv said "I can part the sea", would you really believe him?

I'm not making fun of your belief in God. Something had to happen for us to be here today. I find it strange how most people say "the Bible says...." and the counter is usually always something like "Science proves...."

....good thing I'm not a good listener, or follower. Otherwise, I would be scared about who is really "right"..:wink:

Questions...sure I have some? Not believe.... no. I have no idea how some of the miracles in the Bible were done. And I won't know this side of eternity. It is not worth my time questioning what God does as he is on a level I can't even comprehend. That is where my Faith comes in to play. In life we can all agree that there is onle ONE absolute truth. I choose to place God and the Bible as my absolute truth. Others pick science or some other diety.

If I am a good person but do not believe in your God would I still get to your heaven?
i.e do non christians get to heaven?

If I am a good person but do not believe in your God would I still get to your heaven?
i.e do non christians get to heaven?

According to the Bible, no. Christianity is not a belief that is measured with good works. In order to go to heaven you need to be saved. There is no special recipe. However, here is a link to infomataion on the "sinner's prayer" which is a good place to start.

http://www.bible-knowledge.com/sinners-prayer.html

In order to go to heaven you need to be saved. There is no special recipe.

saved from what?
Religion is not needed to lead a good life that may be better (whatever that means) than your christian life.
i.e someone out there may be a better person than you are who has never sinned and has also done everything humanly possible to help his fellow human being.
Does that mean that this absoulte non-sinner (and virtual saint by your standards) won't get to your heaven?

Isn't the sinner's prayer an evangelical thing?
y'know, the thing they like to do via a television broadcast?

saved from what?
Religion is not needed to lead a good life that may be better (whatever that means) than your christian life.
i.e someone out there may be a better person than you are who has never sinned and has also done everything humanly possible to help his fellow human being.
Does that mean that this absoulte non-sinner (and virtual saint by your standards) won't get to your heaven?

Isn't the sinner's prayer an evangelical thing?
y'know, the thing they like to do via a television broadcast?Not unless they accept Jesus as their personal lord and savior. Being good isn't enough, you kiss some ass, too. :lol:

Ahhh.... that's where the whole "how to be a mass murderer and get into heaven" thing works....

Isn't there some statistic that points out how many murderers and whatever find god in prison (please resist that obvious one...)?

Ahhh.... that's where the whole "how to be a mass murderer and get into heaven" thing works....

Isn't there some statistic that points out how many murderers and whatever find god in prison (please resist that obvious one...)?

Not sure on that one. If your are sincere in your heart to make Jesus Christ Lord and Savoir of your life then you will go to heaven. Doesn't matter what you have done or where you are in your life. In the Bible Jesus spent the majority of his ministry with drunks, prosittues, tax collectors (i.e the bad guys) because he knew they were the ones that needed him most. He loves everyone the same, no matter what your situation.

As for a god life with no religion........First of all, I hate to call Christianity a religion. I like to refer to it as a Relationsip. Religion always seem to involve legalism and what not which I think can lots of time take away from the Relationship aspect, which is the most important part in my eyes.........Also, I am sure there are lots of people out there that have lead a "less" sinful life then I that are not saved. I am not perfect nor will ever prefess to be. I still sin daily. Thats part of being human. However, thankls to God's grace I can be forgiven. As a Christian I also think you tend to feel conviction a whole lot more. Helps keep you in line I suppose.

Not sure on that one. If your are sincere in your heart to make Jesus Christ Lord and Savoir of your life then you will go to heaven.

So the answer as to whether a saint by Christian standards, who isn't a Christian, is that he/she won't go to your Heaven?

As for a god life with no religion........First of all, I hate to call Christianity a religion. I like to refer to it as a Relationsip. Religion always seem to involve legalism and what not which I think can lots of time take away from the Relationship aspect

without meaning any disrespect, I have no idea what you are trying to say here.
The only comment I have here is that it doesn't matter what or how you prefer to refer to Christianity, it is, especially in your country a religion that is tied to politics. That is not to mention that the religion itself is ultimately based on a set of rules that it defines so yes, it involves laws.

Your mention of relationship confuses me. A relationship is the interaction between two beings. What exactly do you get from God that makes it a relationship? In more modern terms, it is in my mind, akin to unrequited love which as we all know, isn't a relationship because it is 100% one sided.

Of course, you could be talking philosophically but then that again has no bearing on Christianity as a whole because that would be personal to you and hence not apply to all Christianity.

Incidentally, what Church are you two?

I think he means the relationship between God and ones self. You then have to assume God to be a real for a Relationship to make sense, so the burden of prove lies of the believer to prove God exists.

Here's my viewpoint on mass-murderers going to heaven. John 3:16 says "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish, but have everlasting life"

If one truly believes in Jesus, then that person will lead a good life. That doesn't mean only that you believe He exists, you must try to follow His teachings. If you fail, it doesn't matter, but you do have to try. Humans are weak, and we give into temptation, what is important is that we do our best to do what Jesus would want us to do.

It is a relationship. Think of it this way: God is always with you, whether you want him there or not. Now think of a person you know that you don't especially like that you never gave a chance by getting to know him, lets say you work with this person. You go through your day and ignore this person the best you can, though he is always with you. Then one day you go into work and find out that he quit. You're estatic! As the day goes on, you find yourself working harder and harder, yet are falling further and further behind. Although you didn't want this person there, you realize how much he did, and start to wish he was back. You might even start to miss him once he is gone. When he was with you, you took everything for granted, you certainly didn't think you had a relationship with this person. Did you? Absolutely. A relationship with God is similar (although it did sound better in my head, but it is difficult to explain). If you don't realize what he is doing, you might ask things like "what relationship". An example, which I'm sure you'll say is a coincidence, was one day when I was taking groceries home. I took as many bags as I could carry in one hand to the front door and opened it and went inside. I went back outside to get the rest of the bags, which was the most I could possibly carry. I didn't think I could get all of them, but I did manage to, carrying a gallon of milk by each pinky finger and about 10 bags around the rest of my fingers. This day was the calmest day I remember, I'm outside all day, and not once did I feel even a slight breeze. When I get to the door, I think "Oh, s***, I should have proped the door open!" My storm door closes all but the last inch by a spring, but doesn't latch unless you push or pull it shut yourself. As I took a step back to set the groceries down so I could open the door, a very strong gust of wind caught the door and threw it open, once I was inside, it stopped and the door shut behind me. You probably see that as a coincidence, but what about when you went into work in the morning and there was a pot of coffee made already? Your co-worker made the coffee, but when you go into work, you don't think of that. All you think of is "Hey!, coffee!".

I think he means the relationship between God and ones self. You then have to assume God to be a real for a Relationship to make sense, so the burden of prove lies of the believer to prove God exists.
Well, alright!, we finally got you to capitalize His name! But, there is no "burden of proof", that's absolutely rediculous. Faith and proof are two entirely seperate things. The reason God doesn't give signs hat He exists is because we need to have faith in Him. That makes one thing very obvious now. You have no understanding of what you are rejecting. What you think we need to do is the exact opposite of what you need to do. But, if you want proof just wait, you'll have it one day; and that makes me very sad.

When I responded to you post about your brother stabbing you (http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=911077, for everyone else), I was hoping you had perhaps given some though to accepting God into your life. Clearly you havn't, but since this is a more appropriate thread, here goes!:
You said you thought that you were going to die, and that you are afraid of death. When an injury is inflicted, the pain is not as bad as it gets later. I've had some very deep cuts, one of which hit an artery. There's tons of blood and it really hurts, but while your body is pumping out the endorphins, it's not really all that bad. In my case, I was not even going to go to the hospital, but after I started to feel weak, I figured I should. The real pain started at the hospital (the sick-to-your-stomache, want to collapse, fuzzy fision, someone hold the room still, damn is it cold in here kind). I'm assuming it would be the same in your case. Now, once you're at the hospital, you know you're not going to die from an arm/shoulder injury. It seems, then, that any thoughts you had would have been rational, regardless of when it was. Why are you afraid to die? It seems only reasonable that you could be afriad of the pain, but why would you say you're afriad to die? Death and pain are clearly different, and I know you can distinguish between them. If God does not exist, then why would you be afraid of nothing? If when we die, we only stop having thoughts, why be afriad of it? Absolutely nothing would have been infinately greater than the pain I felt when the alternator I was holding with my hand to enlarge the pivot hole rolled over, the drill bit broke, and most of a spinning drill bit went into my arm (but morphine was good too). It sounds to me that you do at least have some curiosity about the possibility of something after we die. I really hope you give it some thought, fire hurts a hell of a lot more (pun intended) than a sharp hunting knife. Getting your information from a web site may not be the best way, either :2cents:

Oh, and I really do feel bad for you, and I don't want to make light of your situation, but I do think it brings up a very valid point.


And about prisoners "finding God" (I personally believe God finds you when you're ready, not the other way around)... you have very little to do in prison other than to think. That's kindda the whole point of prison...

But, there is no "burden of proof", that's absolutely rediculous. Faith and proof are two entirely seperate things. The reason God doesn't give signs hat He exists is because we need to have faith in Him. That makes one thing very obvious now. You have no understanding of what you are rejecting. What you think we need to do is the exact opposite of what you need to do. But, if you want proof just wait, you'll have it one day; and that makes me very sad.


There has never been, nor will there ever be, any proof or evidence of the existence of any religious deity. Such belief is purely irrational and defies our understanding of how the world works. Which makes sense, as it seems that most people who rely on religion either lack the reasoning ability to grasp scientific principles or are simply uneducated/ignorant (refer to any of the threads on evolution). Being spiritual is one thing, but relying on archaic religious doctrine that arose because of a need to explain the world in an era when the world was not explicable shows only mental weakness and inflexibility. I have no problem with people who choose to integrate a spiritual understanding of the world with factual scientific principles (such as evolution). What I do have a problem with is those who choose to blindly follow religious doctrine that contradicts common sense. (Note that there is a BIG difference between spiritualism and religion).

In addressing the question of "what if" gos exists, it is easy for an atheist to answer from a logical standpoint. The fact of the matter is that if god does exist, and it is all knowing/all powerful/all good, then it would judge people based on their actions in life, not based on a trivial matter such as whether they choose to believe in a being that contradicts all extant physical evidence. If this being does then exist, and it does in fact judge based on belief systems versus judging based on merit, then this being is not all good/all knowing/all powerful as it violates basic principles of logic. That is to say that those who choose to reject the existence of the judgmental religious god due to scientific and logical reasoning could not be faulted for doing so by an all powerful/all knowing/all good being, as such a being would necessarily recognize the unlikelihood of its existence based on the lack of physical evidence that it would have provided. It is therefore unnecessary for atheists to worry in the slightest about eternal damnation, because if there does prove to be a god, it will undoubtedly judge based on how one's life was lived.

As a side note, I would like to mention that most of the agnostics/atheists I know are REALLY good people. When one does not have a religious crutch to lean on for moral guidance, the need to develop a set of moral values and ethics becomes a necessity. These ethics are usually based on the principles of objective secular humanism and environmentalism, and are almost always (at least in my experience) accompanied by a strong sense of integrity and responsibility to uphold those moral values. The same can most definitely not be said of most religious followers (ie roughly 95% if the world's population) :2cents:

There has never been, nor will there ever be, any proof or evidence of the existence of any religious deity. Such belief is purely irrational and defies our understanding of how the world works. Which makes sense, as it seems that most people who rely on religion either lack the reasoning ability to grasp scientific principles or are simply uneducated/ignorant (refer to any of the threads on evolution). Being spiritual is one thing, but relying on archaic religious doctrine that arose because of a need to explain the world in an era when the world was not explicable shows only mental weakness and inflexibility. I have no problem with people who choose to integrate a spiritual understanding of the world with factual scientific principles (such as evolution). What I do have a problem with is those who choose to blindly follow religious doctrine that contradicts common sense. (Note that there is a BIG difference between spiritualism and religion).

In addressing the question of "what if" gos exists, it is easy for an atheist to answer from a logical standpoint. The fact of the matter is that if god does exist, and it is all knowing/all powerful/all good, then it would judge people based on their actions in life, not based on a trivial matter such as whether they choose to believe in a being that contradicts all extant physical evidence. If this being does then exist, and it does in fact judge based on belief systems versus judging based on merit, then this being is not all good/all knowing/all powerful as it violates basic principles of logic. That is to say that those who choose to reject the existence of the judgmental religious god due to scientific and logical reasoning could not be faulted for doing so by an all powerful/all knowing/all good being, as such a being would necessarily recognize the unlikelihood of its existence based on the lack of physical evidence that it would have provided. It is therefore unnecessary for atheists to worry in the slightest about eternal damnation, because if there does prove to be a god, it will undoubtedly judge based on how one's life was lived.

As a side note, I would like to mention that most of the agnostics/atheists I know are REALLY good people. When one does not have a religious crutch to lean on for moral guidance, the need to develop a set of moral values and ethics becomes a necessity. These ethics are usually based on the principles of objective secular humanism and environmentalism, and are almost always (at least in my experience) accompanied by a strong sense of integrity and responsibility to uphold those moral values. The same can most definitely not be said of most religious followers (ie roughly 95% if the world's population) :2cents:

HAHA! Oh man I haven't seen such blatant flame bait before. Here I'll throw some of my own around. We'll see who bites first.


I figured now would be a good time to state this. Just so people know, atheists and religious types are exactly the same. Thrasher, or any atheist for that matter, here thinks he's better or smarter than a Christian or religious type, he's not.

Let me explain. Atheists actually are more devoted to their beliefs than most religious folk. Why? They're willing to believe the impossible and unthinkable that most people won't. This idea is that reality is nothing. They believe it blindly and fully.

So how are they the same as a Christian or Muslim or other believer? Well, the atheist in order to believe this must be willing to give up their opinion and believe in something, an idea, greater than themselves.

Much like, yes the religious, who have no opinion and believe in something greater than themselves. In this case it's a higher being.

Now before somebody goes spouting of that their beliefs and blind following are justified compared to the religious, they're not. Here's how.

All things are made of molecules. All molecules, all things, are made of atoms.

Since there are no set rules to the universe there is absolutely no difference in anything. All things being atoms, there's no different between murder and cutting down a tree. Simply arrangments of molecules.

Sex with a 12 year old girl is wrong compared to sex with a 21 year old? Nothing more than cellular molecules with different amounts of hormones released.

http://www.csdf.k12.ca.us/student_life/events/01/sciencefair/atom.jpg
http://www.csdf.k12.ca.us/student_life/events/01/sciencefair/atom.jpg

Here we have an atom representing the cloth of a car's front seat. The other atom representing 37 year old man named Tod with a wife and kids.

Can you spot the difference?

These ethics are usually based on the principles of objective secular humanism and environmentalism, and are almost always (at least in my experience) accompanied by a strong sense of integrity and responsibility to uphold those moral values.

There is no humanism, environmentalims, integrity, and responsibility to protons, neutrons, or electrons. The universe is nothing more than a big grouping of atoms. What's the difference when you get down to it without a high being? None. Atheist cannot deny this and can try to spin it anyway they can but they can't.

Coming back to the original point of atheist blindly and willingly believing in something greater than themselves, just like the Christian saying we're all going to hell.

Let me explain. Atheists actually are more devoted to their beliefs than most religious folk. Why? They're willing to believe the impossible and unthinkable that most people won't. This idea is that reality is nothing. They believe it blindly and fully.


You are smarter than that man. Come on.

That one sentence is a staw man argument, and a display of some pretty good irony.

Thrasher was spot on when it comes to the atheist logic, but in that one sentence Tang you are slightly incorrect.

Atheists, are not more devoted to their beliefs than most religious folks because if you can prove to us that God exists we will CEASE to be atheists.

If you can prove Evolution did not happen we will CEASE to accept evolution.

If you can prove that belief in a deity is logically acceptable in rational thought, than we will CEASE to accept our logic as the only reasonable form of thinking.


We can prove God does not exist (or has no need to exist - Prof. Victor J. Stenger), but you can't even prove Jesus existed. We've debunked creationism time and time again to the point that 12 years olds can debate creationist fundamentalists and win.

Atheists are not militant to their beliefs, because we are so close minded that we are only prepared to engaged in REALITY. I know it sounds unreasonable to anyone with a religious conviction, but if something isn't real that it seems that us atheists have a built in, automatic prejudice, that's right, a PREJUDICE, against pretending that it IS REAL.
In fact, I'm so close minded, when it comes to believing absurdities, and you won't believe this, but atheists actually require PROOF of what we believe in, that's right, hard-core forensic proof that will stand up in a court of law, of why we believe what we believe and perceive to be true.

And I think we both know that your scripture won't furnish that proof, even if you talked until the end of time.


The Christian logic is that water is liquid, therefore God exists.

The Atheists logic is water has surface tension and viscosity, therefore water is liquid.

We are open to science, which is a self-correcting process, when evidence arises that contradicts previous conclusions, laws, theories, hypotheses are THROWN OUT and NEW beliefs are formed based on NEW EVIDENCE.

We are not more devoted, because if something contradicts our belief, we are the first to CHANGE our belief.

How many religions do that? NONE



So how are they the same as a Christian or Muslim or other believer? Well, the atheist in order to believe this must be willing to give up their opinion and believe in something, an idea, greater than themselves.
This is a flat contradiction of the idea of religion.
Religion is based on faith, a belief without evidence.

Atheists, like my self, accept that in which science has proven. That which has evidence to SUPPORT a theory, and the logic of correction which is a concept zero religions accept nor understand.

We do not give up our opinion and believe in something, we form our opinions based on overwhelming, avalanches of evidence. We accept evolution because the evidence overwhelming points to evolution. We do not accept the earth is 6,000 years old because it CONTRADICTS the physical evidence.

Since there are no set rules to the universe there is absolutely no difference in anything. All things being atoms, there's no different between murder and cutting down a tree. Simply arrangments of molecules.

Sex with a 12 year old girl is wrong compared to sex with a 21 year old? Nothing more than cellular molecules with different amounts of hormones released.

I see what you're doing there and I am not impressed.

You are taking Atheism, and attributing scientific jargon to immoral and illegal sex acts (which does not even make any sense), that I can only assume you attribute atheism to. That is a straw man again, and SHAME on you for bringing up such nonsense.

Atheism is not a belief, its LACK of belief, therefore your straw man argument that we see no difference in murdering a person and a tree is just insane, atheists believe more so in value of life than religious because we do not KILL and MURDER and SLAUGHTER for what we believe in.

I fail to understand why you compared ethical and moral values with atomic chemistry, a field of science that you have obviously zero understanding in.

Your two diagrams just make no sense.


There is no humanism, environmentalims, integrity, and responsibility to protons, neutrons, or electrons. The universe is nothing more than a big grouping of atoms. What's the difference when you get down to it without a high being? None. Atheist cannot deny this and can try to spin it anyway they can but they can't.
So what you're saying is that because we don't believe in God, well actually we reject the concept (there is a difference), therefore we accept that we are nothing more than an arrangment of atoms?

You're right, we can't deny that because...Aww I dunno...

perhaps that in a nut shell that is fact not fiction

All you're doing is claiming we have no value for life, but you're doing it in a way that is creating a staw man argument in an attempt to convince your self that the religious (particular those who follow Christianity) have both the moral high ground AND the logical thinking required to justify a belief in the supernatural. Distorting our end just makes your argument weightless.

Responding to J-Ri:


Well, alright!, we finally got you to capitalize His name! But, there is no "burden of proof", that's absolutely rediculous. Faith and proof are two entirely seperate things. The reason God doesn't give signs hat He exists is because we need to have faith in Him. That makes one thing very obvious now. You have no understanding of what you are rejecting. What you think we need to do is the exact opposite of what you need to do. But, if you want proof just wait, you'll have it one day; and that makes me very sad.
The onus is on the believer to show evidence to why they believe what they believe. This is a justified part of science, and does not change.

I have a clear understanding of that which I reject. I disbelieve in God both as a concept and a purported concretion. I was raised a Catholic, went to a Catholic school, and was raised as such.

Faith is belief without evidence, or as Mark Twain said: "faith is believing in something you know isn't true".

It is by mere chance that you born into the family that brought you up to believe what you believe, if you were raised in any other part of world, or history you could believe in other Gods that you reject, like Zeus, Apollo, or Thor.

You have faith in a God because that is what religion requires of you, there is no evidence or proof that he exists other than in the mind of delusional crazy people who claim hallucinations which can be explained scientifically (taken LSD recently?).

The burden of proof relies on ANYONE with a claim of truth. If you claim the Earth is 4.5 billion years old, you better have proof to back it up, and we do.

If you claim God exists, you better have pretty damn good evidence to back it up, and you do not. Only 'faith'. The entire concept of faith is flawed, and it is for this reason I reject a Deity. If you were to give evidence in court that, say for example, someone robbed the local liquor store, you are called to the stand, and you say that you cannot identify the man, you never saw him, but you have 'faith' that he did it. Lets now say that your religion demands that you require faith for any proposition you hold true under penalty of the false dichotomy of going to hell, no matter the cause. By your logic the man is guilty because you have faith that he is guilty, not evidence or proof, but faith.


There are literally thousands of Gods who have been invented by man over the past tens of thousands of years, in fact, here is a list of Gods that you do not believe in (http://lukeprog.com/religion/gods.html)

It is by mere chance that one particular Roman leader was convinced to allow all religions in the Roman empire tolerable. His successor made it the religion of the empire, and that is why you were brought up in a Christian world.

It makes me sad people still believe ancient superstition, and want it taught in schools.

I was hoping you had perhaps given some though to accepting God into your life.
When God appears to me, I will believe in God, but until then, I am still awaiting for Kanayama-hime to appear to me so I can believe in him...her...

There's tons of blood and it really hurts, but while your body is pumping out the endorphins, it's not really all that bad. In my case, I was not even going to go to the hospital, but after I started to feel weak, I figured I should. The real pain started at the hospital (the sick-to-your-stomache, want to collapse, fuzzy fision, someone hold the room still, damn is it cold in here kind)
Was it as cold for you too? Damn air conditioner was on freezing, and it was quite uncomfortable yeah. When you lose a lot of blood and sit up, you nearly throw up it's horrible!

It seems, then, that any thoughts you had would have been rational, regardless of when it was. Why are you afraid to die? It seems only reasonable that you could be afriad of the pain, but why would you say you're afriad to die?
Yeah I accept that my thoughts were quite irrational, but I was afraid to die because I enjoy breathing.

If God does not exist, then why would you be afraid of nothing? If when we die, we only stop having thoughts, why be afriad of it? Absolutely nothing would have been infinately greater than the pain I felt when the alternator I was holding with my hand to enlarge the pivot hole rolled over, the drill bit broke, and most of a spinning drill bit went into my arm (but morphine was good too). It sounds to me that you do at least have some curiosity about the possibility of something after we die. I really hope you give it some thought, fire hurts a hell of a lot more (pun intended) than a sharp hunting knife. Getting your information from a web site may not be the best way, either


It's possibly not dying I think people are afraid of, I think it's that they never do what they wanted. Personally, I wanted to spend more time with Dad, travel the world, do more sweet burn outs, and finish uni. But there is nothing after we die, only speculation. The Christian view of life after death is not the only concept thought by man. The Egyptians believed in life after death for pharaohs, kings and queens, Christianity said anyone can have eternal life, and is the only driving factor in the rise of Christianity in the 1st century C.E. It was not the only cult at the time to offer eternal salvation, local plebs in Rome, a male-only cult worshiped Horace, but never caught on because women and children were not allowed.

Why do you not follow that cult? Logical deduction - it's all a load of speculative bullshit.

Besides, according to Mark 3:29 I'm doomed anyway.

Well, it looks like the Intelligent Design people were right.

81XolzElwR4

I love that video, particularly at 1:38 into it when the host says “I make the biggest discovery in the history of humanity”. What an arrogant ass.

Well, if any of you mechanics go to a deserted island and see a Porsche and no person around, are you going to believe a big explosion put that Porsche together?

Well, if any of you mechanics go to a deserted island and see a Porsche and no person around, are you going to believe a big explosion put that Porsche together?
Nope, and I'm not going to believe that the invisible man waved his arms around and farted it out either.

The earth and universe is infinitely more complex than an automobile.

If an automobile needs an intelligent maker and designer, how much more this world and universe!

The universe certainly has more items in it than a car, but is governed by understandable physical laws. The fact that we do not understand all the applicable laws (quantum physics et al.) is no reason to believe that a fictional deity created it.

Respectfully, the only reason why some people believe in any kind of a deity at all is because they were indoctrinated (told to do so) at a young age and still find their beliefs give them comfort (and sometimes fear/discipline) in later years. Imho, god has become a substitute parental figure for believers.

But there is absolutely nothing in the real, physical world that supports the existence of a god. Yes, there are things that humans do not understand yet, but this is a limitation of the human condition and is not evidence of god's existence. :)

FWIW, I find moderate, modern Christianity (and other moderate religions) to provide an excellent moral compass, cultural center and guide for a decent, constructive life, but it make a terrible guide for answering questions about the nature of the universe. :)

The universe certainly has more items in it than a car, but is governed by understandable physical laws. The fact that we do not understand all the applicable laws (quantum physics et al.) is no reason to believe that a fictional deity created it. Correct no FICTIONAL Deity did create the universe it was a REAL Deity.

Respectfully, the only reason why some people believe in any kind of a deity at all is because they were indoctrinated (told to do so) at a young age and still find their beliefs give them comfort (and sometimes fear/discipline)Wrong! Bill Murray, the late Madeline Murray OHares' son is a born again Christian.
You know he wasn't taught to believe in any god in his house growing up!!! in later years. Imho, god has become a substitute parental figure for believers. Especially after your mom and dad die or leave you. That is taught in the bible,
Psalm 27:10 "When my father and my mother forsake me, then the Lord will take me up." :)

But there is absolutely nothing in the real, physical world that supports the existence of a god. Yes, there are things that humans do not understand yet, but this is a limitation of the human condition and is not evidence of god's existence. :) Ps19:1 "The heavens declare the glory of God, and the firmament sheweth his handi work."
I refer to my original point, if a car needs a designer, so does the universe.

FWIW, I find moderate, modern Christianity (and other moderate religions) to provide an excellent moral compass, cultural center and guide for a decent, constructive life, but it make a terrible guide for answering questions about the nature of the universe. :)So does Darwinism!

Has anyone else noticed the original poster, who apparently got banned, wasn't very intelligent in how he spelled "intelligent"?

"The 'Inteligant Design' website" :grinyes:

Has anyone else noticed the original poster, who apparently got banned, wasn't very intelligent in how he spelled "intelligent"?

Read the first post in this thread. It's self explanatory:
I miss spelt Intelligent on purpose, because there is nothing intelligent about it.



Correct no FICTIONAL Deity did create the universe it was a REAL Deity.

Wrong! Bill Murray, the late Madeline Murray OHares' son is a born again Christian.

You know he wasn't taught to believe in any god in his house growing up!!!

Especially after your mom and dad die or leave you. That is taught in the bible,
Psalm 27:10 "When my father and my mother forsake me, then the Lord will take me up." :)Ps19:1 "The heavens declare the glory of God, and the firmament sheweth his handi work."

I refer to my original point, if a car needs a designer, so does the universe.

So does Darwinism!

Okay, don't take offence, please, we are having a friendly chat here, right? :)

I used the term 'fictional deity' because they are ALL fictional.

Religious theology, including stories about a god, creator et.al. are fake. They have been created by some people over millennia in order to control others.
Whether it is a state sanctioned religion... (from ancient Egypt all the way to present-day Saudi-Arabia) or an independent religion, it is all about persuading followers to adhere to a system of beliefs in order to control them.

This control is done for many reasons, including an extension of political control, to create a reason for belonging, morale-boosting, raising funds or plain-old greed, money and ego.

Personally, I think organized religions are no different from any other organization, such as a corporation, nation, labor union etc.... it exists to expand and grow. People participate in them to have a career, to advance in life etc.

Religions, like corporations, etc also provide a product... in this case, services (no pun intended) to make people feel good or fulfilled. These services require stories, fables and rediculous promises, such as everlasting life, in return for loyalty, obedience and money.

Orgainized religions even have advertising, in Chrstianity's case, Sunday mass, or services, where people are indoctrinated. Their beiefs are reinforced.... just as corporations do with their advertising.

So, religions have a rational reason for existing, that have nothing to do with an existence of any god.

There have been hundreds of religions developed over the millenia, most of which directly contradict your religion... so why do you think yours is right and theirs is wrong?

The answer is, the ALL are wrong. There is no god, no heaven and hell and no after- life.

Imho, a belief in such fairy-tales is to be deluded, distracted and manipulated by others. I do not need any false reassurances about the nature of life and human existence. We, as people have one life and one chance at it. We have to make the most of it on Earth. I do not wish to be deluded or misled in my life.

As for becoming born-again..... I had a moderately religious upbringing, but gave it up because of all the mass of contradictions and illogic that I came across. I simply could not see any rationale at believing in my Anglican (Episcopal) upbringing, and rejecting all other denominations and religions, that, while contradictory, seemed to be as valid as my own.

Furthermore, all religions are utterly unable to explain the existence of the real, physical universe.
Imo the only rational way to reconcile all this was to apply logic and reason... hence my conviction that ALL are wrong.

Finally, a word on Darwinism...... this term is not particularly good, because Darwin had certain things wrong. However, the scientific approach to understanding the universe is self-correcting. Science never rests; people are always working hard to logically improve upon theories, scientific evidence and methodology to better understand the nature of the universe and mankinds place in it.

Religions simply do not engage in this kind of analysis and improvement based on evidence... it is all fiction and fantasy that is simply made up, and has no basis in reality. :)

As for the design of the universe..... in the past there have been many different religious stories on the nature of the heavens and Earth..... the stars are crystal spheres, the sun-god rides in his blazing chariot across the sky. The moon was the sun-god who did something bad so all the other gods too his fire away from him...... The Earth is the center of the Universe....... all heavenly objects orbit around the Earth, etc.

All these stories are incorrect and stemmed from a lack of information about the universe. And your belief that god designed the universe is no different from these past fables it is a delusion based on a lack of knowledge and understanding :)

Has anyone else noticed the original poster, who apparently got banned, wasn't very intelligent in how he spelled "intelligent"?

"The 'Inteligant Design' website" :grinyes:

You obviously didn't bother reading the first post before replying to this thread.

Okay, don't take offence, please, we are having a friendly chat here, right? :)

I used the term 'fictional deity' because they are ALL fictional.

Religious theology, including stories about a god, creator et.al. are fake. They have been created by some people over millennia in order to control others.
Whether it is a state sanctioned religion... (from ancient Egypt all the way to present-day Saudi-Arabia) or an independent religion, it is all about persuading followers to adhere to a system of beliefs in order to control them.

This control is done for many reasons, including an extension of political control, to create a reason for belonging, morale-boosting, raising funds or plain-old greed, money and ego.

Personally, I think organized religions are no different from any other organization, such as a corporation, nation, labor union etc.... it exists to expand and grow. People participate in them to have a career, to advance in life etc.

Religions, like corporations, etc also provide a product... in this case, services (no pun intended) to make people feel good or fulfilled. These services require stories, fables and rediculous promises, such as everlasting life, in return for loyalty, obedience and money.

Orgainized religions even have advertising, in Chrstianity's case, Sunday mass, or services, where people are indoctrinated. Their beiefs are reinforced.... just as corporations do with their advertising.

So, religions have a rational reason for existing, that have nothing to do with an existence of any god.

There have been hundreds of religions developed over the millenia, most of which directly contradict your religion... so why do you think yours is right and theirs is wrong?

The answer is, the ALL are wrong. There is no god, no heaven and hell and no after- life.

Imho, a belief in such fairy-tales is to be deluded, distracted and manipulated by others. I do not need any false reassurances about the nature of life and human existence. We, as people have one life and one chance at it. We have to make the most of it on Earth. I do not wish to be deluded or misled in my life.

As for becoming born-again..... I had a moderately religious upbringing, but gave it up because of all the mass of contradictions and illogic that I came across. I simply could not see any rationale at believing in my Anglican (Episcopal) upbringing, and rejecting all other denominations and religions, that, while contradictory, seemed to be as valid as my own.

Furthermore, all religions are utterly unable to explain the existence of the real, physical universe.
Imo the only rational way to reconcile all this was to apply logic and reason... hence my conviction that ALL are wrong.

Finally, a word on Darwinism...... this term is not particularly good, because Darwin had certain things wrong. However, the scientific approach to understanding the universe is self-correcting. Science never rests; people are always working hard to logically improve upon theories, scientific evidence and methodology to better understand the nature of the universe and mankinds place in it.

Religions simply do not engage in this kind of analysis and improvement based on evidence... it is all fiction and fantasy that is simply made up, and has no basis in reality. :)

As for the design of the universe..... in the past there have been many different religious stories on the nature of the heavens and Earth..... the stars are crystal spheres, the sun-god rides in his blazing chariot across the sky. The moon was the sun-god who did something bad so all the other gods too his fire away from him...... The Earth is the center of the Universe....... all heavenly objects orbit around the Earth, etc.

All these stories are incorrect and stemmed from a lack of information about the universe. And your belief that god designed the universe is no different from these past fables it is a delusion based on a lack of knowledge and understanding :)http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/1540/bigclap.gifWell said.

The Christian belief that Earth is only 6000 years old and the center of the universe, shows a complete disregard for science and things that have already been proven. Just take a look at our place in the universe.

http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/2706/spaceb.th.jpg (http://img19.imageshack.us/i/spaceb.jpg/)

Okay, don't take offence, please, we are having a friendly chat here, right? :)
Right!

All these stories are incorrect and stemmed from a lack of information about the universe. And your belief that god designed the universe is no different from these past fables it is a delusion based on a lack of knowledge and understanding :)But MR, you seem to be saying that since people understand so much about how the universe works, that means it came together by itself.

Does that then mean since you and all other mechanics understand HOW cars and engines are put together, that all the parts and elements that make up an automobile can come together on their own?

After all, if this whole universe can be built by no intelligent being, then a car certainly should have no problem being built, with no person building it. right?

I just don't ever see that happening, maybe you do. :dunno:

And Blazee, I might have glanced over the first post, but didn't see his comment, sorry.

if this whole universe can be built by no intelligent being, then a car certainly should have no problem being built, with no person building it. right?

what you are supposing is akin to asking why can't we grow hamburgers.


creation of universe = particle physics; interactions on a sub-atomic level.
building a car = mechnical engineering.

Right!But MR, you seem to be saying that since people understand so much about how the universe works, that means it came together by itself.

Does that then mean since you and all other mechanics understand HOW cars and engines are put together, that all the parts and elements that make up an automobile can come together on their own?

After all, if this whole universe can be built by no intelligent being, then a car certainly should have no problem being built, with no person building it. right?

I just don't ever see that happening, maybe you do. :dunno:


As drunken monkey noted, you are comparing apples and..... (something more farfetched than oranges)...... ummm... waterbuffaloes. :)

The universe exists in it's current form specifically due to the irrevocable physical forces of the universe. There is no divine plan behind it. These forces exist because it is the nature of the universe.
For example, when you get space, time and particles of matter, you get gravity. The gravity is not planned, it is a product of the interaction of these 3 factors, and can be mathematically explained and predicted.

Many of these physical issues can be explained mathematically, which explains why they logically must exist. Furthermore, such physics existed billions of years before mankind invented the notion of a god to explain it all.

Porches do not exist in nature because physical laws make it highly improbable that they would be formed. So we have to manufacture them .

As drunken monkey noted, you are comparing apples and..... (something more farfetched than oranges)...... ummm... waterbuffaloes. :)

The universe exists in it's current form specifically due to the irrevocable physical forces of the universe.There is no divine plan behind itYou might be correct to say I cannot prove there is a divine plan behind the universe, but I am just as correct to say you cannot prove there is no divine plan behind the universe. These forces exist because it is the nature of the universe. But WHY is it the nature of the universe? (why doesn't the law of physics cause gravity to be a force upward, away from the earth, not downward toward the earth?)
For example, when you get space, time and particles of matter, you get gravity. The gravity is not planned, it is a product of the interaction of these 3 factors, and can be mathematically explained and predicted.

Many of these physical issues can be explained mathematically,So can the physical issues of how an automobile runs which explains why they logically must exist. Furthermore, such physics existed billions of years before mankind invented the notion of a god to explain it all. If there are LAWS of physics that make up this universe, doesn't that mean there must be a law MAKER? I know of no laws of any nation that a person didn't write or author.

Porches do not exist in nature because physical laws make it highly improbable that they would be formed. So we have to manufacture them .
creation of universe = particle physics; interactions on a sub-atomic level.
building a car = mechnical engineering.

Yes building a car is Mechanical engineering, just as the creating of life is BIOLOGICAL engineering. That is a big part of the make up of the universe that NO human (a Christian would argue except Christ), has been able to replicate.
I would argue life, especially human life is the biggest evidence of a creator.

Thank you for replying. This is a good discussion. :)

You might be correct to say I cannot prove there is a divine plan behind the universe, but I am just as correct to say you cannot prove there is no divine plan behind the universe.
Often, people must use logical deductions to arrive at a conclusion.

For example, I have never actually seen Australia. However, I have met many people from there; I have seen it referenced in many news articles, documentaries, maps etc., so I can say, for certain, that it exists..... without ever having personally seen the place.

Now, for the universe, I have read many scientific articles about the universe, seen research, seen pictures, read physics journals etc to know that many very smart people are steadily advancing the understanding the nature of the universe better and better. And there is no shred of evidence that its existence is due to anything other than quantifiable, understandable physical properties.
There is no evidence that any creationism or supreme being did anything... or even exists. However, the many quantifiable principles of the universe ARE understood and are verifiable and logical. They are founded in theory, mathematics, observation and, eventually, irrefutable proof. Therefore, I logically understand them to be true.

Furthemore, imho, creationism is totally discredited. Many creationist stories, made up by religious figures have been proven to be wrong. So, given that record, I can, with great confidence, conclude that the groundless, unproven creationist fables are wrong, as well.


But WHY is it the nature of the universe? (why doesn't the law of physics cause gravity to be a force upward, away from the earth, not downward toward the earth?)So can the physical issues of how an automobile runs If there are LAWS of physics that make up this universe, doesn't that mean there must be a law MAKER? I know of no laws of any nation that a person didn't write or author.
You are using a trick of the language here. Human laws are entirely different than the fundamental physical features of the universe.

The nature of the universe exists for the same reason that 2+2=4....... but on a hugely more complicated scale.
You may ask yourself, why doesn't 2+2=5 ? Well, it doesn't. Logic, mathematics and observation will say that 2+2 will never equal 5.

The universe operates in the same way. Many aspects of physics and the principles of the universe can be mathematically proven and verified by observation. Other aspects are being worked on. But again, the preponderance of evidence strongly supports the principle that the universe must work in a specific way, just due to the very nature of its existence.

And, again, there is no shred of evidence that any man-made fairytale has any relevant input into this.


Yes building a car is Mechanical engineering, just as the creating of life is BIOLOGICAL engineering. That is a big part of the make up of the universe that NO human (a Christian would argue except Christ), has been able to replicate.
I would argue life, especially human life is the biggest evidence of a creator.

Uh, no. Imo if a creator made life, he would have done a MUCH better job of it, and a lot sooner, too. :)

It is a logical fallacy to say that just because we do not completely understand a thing or a process that somehow a magical man (or woman) made it.
It has been proven that matter and energy tend to organize themselves in particular, predictable ways. Given the tremendous length of time that life has existed on Earth (3.5 ++ billion years) that something as organized as mammals has come of it.

Again, life is similar to physics... when it is scientifically explored, it turns out to be predictable and obeys specific, understandible principles of chemistry and physics.

Compare that to the creationist explanation, which, imo is discredited because it has gotten so many alleged explanations about life completely wrong, and have been disproved by the scientific method.

Look here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method

Thank you for replying. This is a good discussion. :)
You're welcome. I am actually a bible college graduate. I love studying and debating theology. If I was a man I would probably be a theology professor at some bible college.

Often, people must use logical deductions to arrive at a conclusion.

For example, I have never actually seen Australia. However, I have met many people from there; I have seen it referenced in many news articles, documentaries, maps etc., so I can say, for certain, that it exists..... without ever having personally seen the place.

Now, for the universe, I have read many scientific articles about the universe, seen research, seen pictures, read physics journals etc to know that many very smart people are steadily advancing the understanding the nature of the universe better and better. And there is no shred of evidence that its existence is due to anything other than quantifiable, understandable physical properties.
There is no evidence that any creationism or supreme being did anything... or even exists. However, the many quantifiable principles of the universe ARE understood and are verifiable and logical. They are founded in theory, mathematics, observation and, eventually, irrefutable proof. Therefore, I logically understand them to be true. I am curious why you, and other atheists will start the argument against creationism with a need for intelligence and logic in people who explain and understand things about the universe. But at the end of your argument you abandon the need for logic and intelligence by concluding it all came together without either( I assume you believe you need intelligence to have logic) If no intelligence is needed to put the universe together, then why does the intelligence to understand HOW it came together even matter?

Furthemore, imho, creationism is totally discredited. Many creationist stories, made up by religious figures have been proven to be wrong. So, given that record, I can, with great confidence, conclude that the groundless, unproven creationist fables are wrong, as well. Could you cite what creationist stories are proven to be wrong?



You are using a trick of the language here. Human laws are entirely different than the fundamental physical features of the universe.

The nature of the universe exists for the same reason that 2+2=4....... but on a hugely more complicated scale.
You may ask yourself, why doesn't 2+2=5 ? Well, it doesn't. Logic, mathematics and observation will say that 2+2 will never equal 5.

The universe operates in the same way. Many aspects of physics and the principles of the universe can be mathematically proven and verified by observation. Other aspects are being worked on. But again, the preponderance of evidence strongly supports the principle that the universe must work in a specific way, just due to the very nature of its existence. And the use of mathematics in how the universe works doesn't hint at some intelligence out there involved in how it works?

And, again, there is no shred of evidence that any man-made fairytale has any relevant input into this.



Uh, no. Imo if a creator made life, he would have done a MUCH better job of it, and a lot sooner, too. :)How?



Compare that to the creationist explanation, which, imo is discredited because it has gotten so many alleged explanations about life completely wrong, and have been disproved by the scientific method.Reputable scientists have also gotten things wrong. At one time the majority of scientists were theists. Newton was.

is it bad that from that last post, the only thing that stands out to me is this:

If I was a man I would probably be a theology professor at some bible college.

is it bad that from that last post, the only thing that stands out to me is this:

:cwm27:

Sorry for the late reply. I have not been ignoring this, typically I am far away from technology on weekends, which gives me time to roll some ideas around in my head.

If I was a man I would probably be a theology professor at some bible college.
Oh dear. Could you explain why gender is relevant in such a role? I would hate to think that your gender has restricted your career choice.


I am curious why you, and other atheists will start the argument against creationism with a need for intelligence and logic in people who explain and understand things about the universe. A logical analysis of virtually any issue in the sciences is required to ensure consistency so others can verify any theory and/or proof, and to further contribute to the issue at hand.
A logical approach is required not only to ensure one arrives at the most probable conclusion but also to ensure that all involved are working in a coordinated manner.

I believe I had posted a link regarding the 'scientific method'. :)


But at the end of your argument you abandon the need for logic and intelligence by concluding it all came together without either( I assume you believe you need intelligence to have logic) I am not abandoning anything here. I think you may be mixing apples and oranges again....... human beings are using logic and intelligence to understand a natural (not god-made) phenomenon.



If no intelligence is needed to put the universe together, then why does the intelligence to understand HOW it came together even matter?

Well, why does anything in life matter? Why do people build buildings? Why do people seek to improve their societies? Why do people strive to improve themselves or the world around them?
Imo people often seek a challange in life. The athlete seeks to be better than others. The writer seeks to create a better novel.

The scientest seeks to understand the world around them.... sometimes as an applied practice, such as creating new medecines, or as abstract knowledge, such as a better understanding of the universe.

Without the human drive to discover and improve.... we would all still be living in hunter-gatherer communities in stone-age Africa.


Could you cite what creationist stories are proven to be wrong?
Genesis. The heaven and earth was not created in 7 days. There is monumental evidence to show that the universe is about 14.5 billion years old, and has arrived in its current form due to a very long and complex series of celestial events.

And the use of mathematics in how the universe works doesn't hint at some intelligence out there involved in how it works?
I really do not think so.

Here's my thinking on the subject. The events that allowed the universe to come into existence and develop over 14.5 billion years to its current state are all logically quantifiable and understandable through applying widely understood principles of mathematics, Newtonian physics, Einsteins principles, quantum physics, chemistry, particle physics, atomic physics etc.

Yes, there are some theorized unknowns.... but these unknowns are being researched (by organizations such as CERN (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CERN) and the Large Hadron Observatory, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Large_Hadron_Collider) among others)

Imo it is just inconsistent that our quantifiable, rational and consistent universe has been created by a god..... because the concept of god is enormously irrational and inconsistent.

Why is the concept of god irrational and inconsistent?

1. Who created god? If you accept that something so awesome as the universe Must have been made by a god, then it's consisent to demand that something MUST have made that god.

Then you think that the god-creator must have been made etc. etc and you end up with a consistent but untenable theory.

2. There are so many gods out there. Can they all exist together without conflict? Doesn't Yahweh and the Hindi gods simply have theological conflicts about their roles in the universe?
And even if you consider that Yahweh is worshipped by Jews, Christians and Muslims alike, how is it that the various religions differ so much in what is expected of god and how he should be worshipped..... enough differences to cause thousands of years of bloodshed?

3. For that matter, if god is ageless and is so powerful that he can create the universe, why does he care if puny humans worship him. What does he care, he created 10 billion galaxies, each with 100 billion stars... and one person on our tiny planet concerns him?

4. If god is all powerful, why are we concerned about other gods, such as the Devil? ( And yes, I am convinced that the devil, given his theological super-human powers is a god completely separate from Yahweh.) If another god, such as the devil can affect us and rule over Hell, then Yahweh really is not the all-powerful being he's supposed to be?


How?
If man is supposedly made in god's image, then why are people so imperfect? We suffer from disease, deformity, pshycological problems..... we fight, we commit crime etc etc.

Frankly, if god could deliberately make the universe, couldn't he have made a better job of making people? :)


Reputable scientists have also gotten things wrong. At one time the majority of scientists were theists. Newton was.
Are you saying that being a theist is getting 'things wrong'? :)

The mistakes of one scientist are usually found by other scientists. One of the benefits of using the 'scientific method' and logial, understandable methods is that scientists can readily repeat and verify any experiment, procedure or observation made by others.

As for Newton, he was a product of a much different time. Back in Newtons' day, religious organizations played a much more significan role in people's lives.

Besides, it would appear he was an extremely unconventional Christian, for his time, so who knows what motivated him.

Historian Stephen D. Snobelen says of Newton, "Isaac Newton was a heretic. But ... he never made a public declaration of his private faith — which the orthodox would have deemed extremely radical. He hid his faith so well that scholars are still unravelling his personal beliefs."[49] Snobelen concludes that Newton was at least a Socinian sympathiser (he owned and had thoroughly read at least eight Socinian books), possibly an Arian and almost certainly an antitrinitarian[49]. In an age notable for its religious intolerance there are few public expressions of Newton's radical views, most notably his refusal to take holy orders and his refusal, on his death bed, to take the sacrament when it was offered to him

From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaac_Newton
Yes, I know Wikipedia is not the best source, but it is well referenced;

Sorry for the late reply. I have not been ignoring this, typically I am far away from technology on weekends, which gives me time to roll some ideas around in my head. NP


Oh dear. Could you explain why gender is relevant in such a role? I would hate to think that your gender has restricted your career choice. It is really a lot a matter of faith and finding the right life occupation God has for me. I don't believe it's appropriate for a woman to be teaching adult men theology in a classroom setting, now I wouldn't mind teaching grade school boys, and girls or women bible and theology, and at times in my life I have had ministries where I have done that (Sunday school, jail ministry).

A logical analysis of virtually any issue in the sciences is required to ensure consistency so others can verify any theory and/or proof, and to further contribute to the issue at hand.
A logical approach is required not only to ensure one arrives at the most probable conclusion but also to ensure that all involved are working in a coordinated manner.

I believe I had posted a link regarding the 'scientific method'. :)

I am not abandoning anything here. I think you may be mixing apples and oranges again....... human beings are using logic and intelligence to understand a natural (not god-made) phenomenon. I agree with most of what you say here (not the part that I'm mixing apples and oranges).
It still doesn't answer the question how you need intelligent reasoning to figure out the workings of something that took no intelligence to put together. Also you have no conclusive proof no god was involved in the phenomenon of the universe




Well, why does anything in life matter? Why do people build buildings? Why do people seek to improve their societies? Why do people strive to improve themselves or the world around them?
Imo people often seek a challange in life. The athlete seeks to be better than others. The writer seeks to create a better novel.

The scientest seeks to understand the world around them.... sometimes as an applied practice, such as creating new medecines, or as abstract knowledge, such as a better understanding of the universe.

Without the human drive to discover and improve.... we would all still be living in hunter-gatherer communities in stone-age Africa. My point was, if no intellect was involved in putting the universe together, then LOGICALLY there should be no need for intelligence to figure it out.

the answer to why people strive to better themselves is, they know and see they are imperfect and are trying to become perfect, where most fall short is in admitting no human will reach perfection UNLESS a holy creator intervenes to make them perfect (thats where Christ comes in.):)


Genesis. The heaven and earth was not created in 7 days. There is monumental evidence to show that the universe is about 14.5 billion years old, and has arrived in its current form due to a very long and complex series of celestial events. I don't know if you ever heard of gerald schroeder, but he is a scientist who is a Jewish Theist, and he explains how there could have been a creation in six days, but because of the difference in time and space, from a human perspective it is billions of years but from Gods perpective it was six days. here is his site.: (read from page four on in the article)
http://www.geraldschroeder.com/AgeUniverse.aspx


I will respond to the rest a little later.

It still doesn't answer the question how you need intelligent reasoning to figure out the workings of something that took no intelligence to put together.

But you don't really answer the question of why it has to be a god that put it together.
Why does an apparent order as per laws of physics prove a god exists?

If the god concept did not exist, would it be first thing you'd think of as being the reason for the existance of the universe?
As so succinctly put earlier, would you believe that an invisible man farted it out?

People who believe in God do not require scientific proof or material evidence that God exists. That is why their belief is referred to as "faith". Most believers are either taught by their parents to have faith, or they have some kind of spiritual experience that changes them. Believers can't impart faith on those who don't believe, and non-believers can't prove to believers that God does not exist, mainly because their belief is based on "faith" and not "proof".

I believe in God just to cover my ass. I mean, if there really is a God I want all of the benefits that believers are supposed to get in the afterlife (free satellite TV, Medicare, 1000 virgins, etc...). And if there is no God then no harm done.

I don't know if you ever heard of gerald schroeder, but he is a scientist who is a Jewish Theist, and he explains how there could have been a creation in six days, but because of the difference in time and space, from a human perspective it is billions of years but from Gods perpective it was six days. here is his site.: (read from page four on in the article)
http://www.geraldschroeder.com/AgeUniverse.aspx

It's interesting that Gohan mentions faith, as I was considering that aspect recently.
According to Websters. faith can mean "a firm belief in something with which there is no proof. "

Having faith means that proof is not required at all, and one can therefore, ignore any and all evidence to the contrary. So, no amount of scientific proof can dispel true religious faith. How can one debate someone with such faith?

Hence we come to Gerald Scroeder's site (thank you for the link). His beliefs are groundless, from a scientific point of view, and are easily defeated, given current knolwdge of atomic physics vs. the story of Genesis. (If you ask me how, I would be happy to explain).

I find it interesting that religious people will add to biblical stories and fables to make them fit current evidence, or produce their own 'evidence' to make the stories fit current evidence. I have found this a VERY common theme amongst religious people; to come up with little rules/interpretations/explanations that are simply not in the Bible to explain the inconsistencies of the Bible and the world around them.

The Book of Genesis was written for humans in human terms. To claim it is now inaccurate because it was written in Big-bang stretched time is nonsense. The original writers and readers of Genesis were simple middle-Eastern folk and knew nothing of such concepts. Wouldn't god make an appropriate conversion?

But, that is the miracle of such fables.... they can be changed, altered, twisted to fit etc because they are written for the faithful. Their faith means that a reasonable, accurate explanation is not required, they will believe anyways.

I'm sorry if this sounds offensive, I really do not intend it to be so :)

But you don't really answer the question of why it has to be a god that put it together.
Why does an apparent order as per laws of physics prove a god exists? The concept of God is the concept of an INTELLIGENT being, among other characteristics. There is no intelligence with a non entity or non living thing for that matter.

If the god concept did not exist, would it be first thing you'd think of as being the reason for the existance of the universe?
As so succinctly put earlier, would you believe that an invisible man farted it out?intelligence, intelligence, intelligence. That is what I see among all of the way nature is put together, yes it does bring to mind the thought of a creator God.

The bible consistently tells believers to come to God only through faith (and obedience), not proof. According to the bible God only proved His existence to the few people He chose to deliver His message. Therefore, any websites or books or documents attempting to prove His existence are inherently wrong. It would seem to me that if He does exist, He wouldn't be leaving evidence of His existence for us to glom over because that would nullify the whole "faith" ideal.

So maybe someone can prove that the Shroud of Turin is a fake, that doesn't mean God doesn't exist, it just means the guy who made the claim is wrong.

The concept of God is the concept of an INTELLIGENT being, among other characteristics. There is no intelligence with a non entity or non living thing for that matter. intelligence, intelligence, intelligence. That is what I see among all of the way nature is put together, yes it does bring to mind the thought of a creator God.

Not really an answer.
You begin by making the assumption that the observed order is indication of an intelligence and then use your assumption to claim existance of a god.

Not really an answer.
You begin by making the assumption that the observed order is indication of an intelligence and then use your assumption to claim existance of a god.

It IS an indication of intelligence!

The bible consistently tells believers to come to God only through faith (and obedience), not proof. According to the bible God only proved His existence to the few people He chose to deliver His message.Wrong!
according to Psalm 19:1 "The heavens declare the glory of God and the firmament sheweth his handiwork" Nature is proof God gives to all people of his existence. Therefore, any websites or books or documents attempting to prove His existence are inherently wrong. It would seem to me that if He does exist, He wouldn't be leaving evidence of His existence for us to glom over because that would nullify the whole "faith" ideal.

So maybe someone can prove that the Shroud of Turin is a fake, that doesn't mean God doesn't exist, it just means the guy who made the claim is wrong.

I really do not think so.

Here's my thinking on the subject. The events that allowed the universe to come into existence and develop over 14.5 billion years to its current state are all logically quantifiable and understandable through applying widely understood principles of mathematics, Newtonian physics, Einsteins principles, quantum physics, chemistry, particle physics, atomic physics etc. Hmm, all these INTELLIGENT guys like Newton and Einstein came up with principles that explain the universe, do you think maybe THEY created it?:cool:

Yes, there are some theorized unknowns.... but these unknowns are being researched (by organizations such as CERN (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CERN) and the Large Hadron Observatory, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Large_Hadron_Collider) among others) After they find out those "unknowns", do you think they will be able to create another universe on their own?:tongue:

Imo it is just inconsistent that our quantifiable, rational and consistent universe has been created by a god..... because the concept of god is enormously irrational and inconsistent.

Why is the concept of god irrational and inconsistent?

1. Who created god? If you accept that something so awesome as the universe Must have been made by a god, then it's consisent to demand that something MUST have made that god. The buck must stop somewhere, you say the big bang, I say God.

Then you think that the god-creator must have been made etc. etc and you end up with a consistent but untenable theory.

2. There are so many gods out there. Can they all exist together without conflict? Doesn't Yahweh and the Hindi gods simply have theological conflicts about their roles in the universe?
And even if you consider that Yahweh is worshipped by Jews, Christians and Muslims alike, how is it that the various religions differ so much in what is expected of god and how he should be worshipped..... enough differences to cause thousands of years of bloodshed?You are right there are many gods out there, made by man, but only one TRUE God created by no one. Yes the false Gods do conflict with the true God, thats why the book of Revelation tells how God (the True) will END the conflict!

And Muslims worship Allah, not Yaweh, complete different deity.
(Yaweh doesn't command Christians to kill people for not being Christian):smile:

3. For that matter, if god is ageless and is so powerful that he can create the universe, why does he care if puny humans worship him. What does he care, he created 10 billion galaxies, each with 100 billion stars... and one person on our tiny planet concerns him? That is the mystery of Christianity, but John tells us in 1st John that God is love.

4. If god is all powerful, why are we concerned about other gods, such as the Devil? ( And yes, I am convinced that the devil, given his theological super-human powers is a god completely separate from Yahweh.) If another god, such as the devil can affect us and rule over Hell, then Yahweh really is not the all-powerful being he's supposed to be? The powers that be are of God. He gives power to whom he will. He has given power to Satan for a time.


If man is supposedly made in god's image, then why are people so imperfect? We suffer from disease, deformity, pshycological problems..... we fight, we commit crime etc etc.

Frankly, if god could deliberately make the universe, couldn't he have made a better job of making people? :)He gave mankind a choice whether to obey him or not, the choice resulted in sin and imperfection.


Are you saying that being a theist is getting 'things wrong'? :)no

The mistakes of one scientist are usually found by other scientists. One of the benefits of using the 'scientific method' and logial, understandable methods is that scientists can readily repeat and verify any experiment, procedure or observation made by others.
That comment shows the imperfection of scientists, not that there is no creator God.

While I appreciate and thank you for your thoughtful reply, it simply does not explain any of my concerns or objections about the existence of a god. Respectfully, all you quote is a man-made book (the bible). It has as much relevance to the nature of the universe as Pollyanna.



And Muslims worship Allah, not Yaweh, complete different deity.


As for Allah.... I think you may be mistaken. From an Islamic point of view, Jews, Christians and Muslims are 'People of the Book' and Allah and Yahweh are the same.
Look here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People_of_the_Book This is an excellent introductory discussion on the relevant theological relationships.

Muslims have explained to me that they simply believe that Christians and Jews are, theologically, much the same as Muslims, except they have not accepted the teachings of Muhammed and the Koran..... and are thus out-of-date.

(Yaweh doesn't command Christians to kill people for not being Christian):smile: .

Well, the Koran does not instruct people to murder unbelievers, either. It's the human interpretation that makes it so.

But, some Muslims, like many Christiansin the past, are only too happy to slaughter people who have different beliefs/opinions from them.
(Crusades, anyone? :) )

Look here: http://www.wsu.edu/~dee/REFORM/WARS.HTM

Finally, a billion+ Muslims are convinced that your particular interpretation of god is incorrect. Their faith tells them so. Imo Muslim faith is no more relevant than Christian faith, and so I maintain the only logical conclusion is that ALL religious faith is factually groundless.

While I appreciate and thank you for your thoughtful reply, it simply does not explain any of my concerns or objections about the existence of a god. Respectfully, all you quote is a man-made book (the bible). It has as much relevance to the nature of the universe as Pollyanna.





As for Allah.... I think you may be mistaken. From an Islamic point of view, Jews, Christians and Muslims are 'People of the Book' and Allah and Yahweh are the same.
Look here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People_of_the_Book This is an excellent introductory discussion on the relevant theological relationships.Allah is only 1 person, Jehovah is 3 persons and one God. How could they be the same?

Muslims have explained to me that they simply believe that Christians and Jews are, theologically, much the same as Muslims, except they have not accepted the teachings of Muhammed and the Koran..... and are thus out-of-date. Many "Christians" believe and quote false doctrine too!



Well, the Koran does not instruct people to murder unbelievers, either. It's the human interpretation that makes it so.Wrong, according to this youtube audio:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2z5_djbuagc


But, some Muslims, like many Christiansin the past, are only too happy to slaughter people who have different beliefs/opinions from them.
(Crusades, anyone? :) )

Look here: http://www.wsu.edu/~dee/REFORM/WARS.HTM (http://www.wsu.edu/%7Edee/REFORM/WARS.HTM)
I see no place on that site that says the Christian God ordered those wars.

Finally, a billion+ Muslims are convinced that your particular interpretation of god is incorrect. Their faith tells them so. Imo Muslim faith is no more relevant than Christian faith, and so I maintain the only logical conclusion is that ALL religious faith is factually groundless.Muslims also don't have an account with MANY witnesses of Allah becoming incarnate, and rising from the dead.
They were actual people who testified to Jesus Christ and his miracles, not so with the Muslim God!

They were actual people who testified to Jesus Christ and his miracles, not so with the Muslim God!A lot of people claim to see Bigfoot, too. Doesn't make it true...

I think that you are missing what he is asking for. He wants facts and examples to support your stance. Your replies are merely rhetoric.

CL8, again, I do not wish to appear to sound too harsh or critical. here. I thank you for your input but I think you may have missed my point.

It seems as if pretty much everyone who does not follow your particular Christian franchise has it wrong. Imo the religious opinions of billions of devout people should not be dismissed so lightly. Their claim to being 'correct' is the same as yours... just based in mysticism and fairy - tales. :)

Imo the only reasonable way to reconcile the differences is that all are wrong.

You really did miss my point about interpretation. Of course a christian god did not order the religious wars. As I said, it is the people's misinterpretation of religious doctrine that made them so. IMO such misinterpretation reaffirms my belief that religious dogma is dangerous since it lends itself to evil manipulation by people. FWIW mankind is better off with a secular rule of law.

As for Allah,
The Muslims made up the fairy-tale about Allah. If they want to claim it's the same as the Christian fairy-tale god, who are we to claim otherwise? :) Imo if the Muslims say he's the same as Jehovah, I have no objection.

As for the claims of witnesses to Jesus' reincarnation..... you know they are just in an old book - one source only - with no independent record or confirmation of such events.
Who's to say that such claims are nothing more than an act of fiction writing?

CL8, again, I do not wish to appear to sound too harsh or critical. here. I thank you for your input but I think you may have missed my point.
MR, your are the most polite Atheist I have come across!:)
It seems as if pretty much everyone who does not follow your particular Christian franchise has it wrong. Imo the religious opinions of billions of devout people should not be dismissed so lightly. Their claim to being 'correct' is the same as yours... just based in mysticism and fairy - tales. :)Do you think it's by accident the most powerful nation(s) are founded on Judeo- Christian beliefs and principles ( not Muslim, Hindu or other religions)?

Imo the only reasonable way to reconcile the differences is that all are wrong. That's like saying because you have three different accounts of how a crime happened, that you dismiss them all. No you examine each carefully and find out which account best fits what happened (unless you deny the crime happened in the first place)

You really did miss my point about interpretation. Of course a christian god did not order the religious wars. As I said, it is the people's misinterpretation of religious doctrine that made them so. IMO such misinterpretation reaffirms my belief that religious dogma is dangerous since it lends itself to evil manipulation by people. FWIW mankind is better off with a secular rule of law. The same could be said of the automobile. Some people use it to run people over, escape from crime scenes, blow up people and buildings:(, But does that mean we should get rid of the automobile?

As for Allah,
The Muslims made up the fairy-tale about Allah. If they want to claim it's the same as the Christian fairy-tale god, who are we to claim otherwise? :) Imo if the Muslims say he's the same as Jehovah, I have no objection.

As for the claims of witnesses to Jesus' reincarnation..... you know they are just in an old book - one source only - with no independent record or confirmation of such events.
Who's to say that such claims are nothing more than an act of fiction writing?Remember, the New Testament is actually MANY sources and many authors compiled together.
This site also give secular evidence for Jesus:
http://www.gotquestions.org/did-Jesus-exist.html

Do you think it's by accident the most powerful nation(s) are founded on Judeo- Christian beliefs and principles (not Muslim, Hindu or other religions)?

Do you think it is by accident that most of the world's richest nations aren't founded on Judeo-Christian beliefs?

That's like saying because you have three different accounts of how a crime happened, that you dismiss them all. No you examine each carefully and find out which account best fits what happened (unless you deny the crime happened in the first place)

The difference being in the case of a known crime, the event is known to have happened. Religion is based on an event that isn't proven to have happened.

The same could be said of the automobile. Some people use it to run people over, escape from crime scenes, blow up people and buildings:(, But does that mean we should get rid of the automobile?

not comparable - straw man.
if you insisit it is comparable then I would agree that in your scenario, perhaps we should get rid of religious people just like we should get rid of people who would run people over, escape from crime scenes, blow up people and buildings.

finally, that site insists that the Bible is a valid source for the proof of the existance of Jesus, which I should add, isn't the only thing being discussed here - existance of Jesus does not prove existance of a god.

First of all, as an athiest, I have no objection to Jesus. Chances are, he did exist.
I also believe that he was probably a rabbi with unconventional ideas that irritated the religious establishment of the day. But, son of god? No, because god does not exist. :)

As for the Judeo-Christian nations.... there are many good socio-political reasons for the economic and political success of the West.

They have nothing to do with any alleged will of god, but are rooted in thousands of years of historic, social, military and political forces that originally pre-date the Judeo-Christian belief system.

For example, our much of our social and political philosophy and organization structure were based on the ancient Greek ideals (further popularized by ancient Rome) from a time when they were polytheistic pagans.

This is a good book of the subject. : http://www.tvfactual.co.uk/triumph_of_the_west.htm

As monkey suggests, if a christian god were really running things around here, how do you explain that most of the West is now dependent on fundamentalist Islamic oil and in atheist-communist-sometimes Buddhist Chinese investment capital and manufacturing?

Wrong!
according to Psalm 19:1 "The heavens declare the glory of God and the firmament sheweth his handiwork" Nature is proof God gives to all people of his existence.

Nature is proof to you - not to "all people". You're giving us your interpretation the firmament and of gods proof and it's about as accurate (or inaccurate) as Shroeder's or anyone else's interpretation. God is something different to different people - including non-believers.

Are there any Theist car enthusiasts on this forum???


Tonight my church had the first night of an annual missions conference.

The missionary who preached was talking about how God works in peoples hearts. To illustrate how God knows what peoples hearts need he gave the example of a guy who builds a car engine knowing the engine needs oil, water and other things, just as God knows what people need since he made them.:cool:

It made me think of all you guys here!:rofl:

Are there any Theist car enthusiasts on this forum???

Well, I don't think anyone here wants to give you personally a difficult time for your beliefs. I think that you have been a very good and gracious defendent for the theology side of the debate. :)

Hmmm... thiests...... personally I like my thiest friends and family. I like most Christians. I like the thoughtfulness, charitable attitude, sense of fellowship and support that most Christians exhibit.
Much of modern, western Christianity brings out the finest, most generous parts of the human psyche.

There are many non-religious people who exhibit the same fine characteristics. Imo morality flows from the individual person and does not need some kind of celestial dictatorship to being it forth.

I guess you could say I make a distinction between the characteristics and benefits of Christianity from the organized religion aspect. Religious organizers imo tend to be a bit too fanatical. They are too much about religious rules/dogma/divine threats etc, and not enough about the human element.

For example, I have 2 friends (a married couple) who are Jehovas Witnesses (actually, one is Catholic, the other Jewish, but their JW relatives and friends placed such pressure upon them to convert, they have given up fighting it)

Their son died tragically at age 25. The funeral was a JW affair, the content of which I found offensive.

Not ONE WORD was mentioned about the deceased, his life, his fine characteristics, hopes/dreams/wishes etc. The entire funeral was about reading biblical passages and reminding the mourners about god's role in their lives.

Total nonsense imo, and entirely inappropriate under the circumstances.
The funeral should be about the deceased, not the JW's radical interpretation of christianity.

Do you think it is by accident that most of the world's richest nations aren't founded on Judeo-Christian beliefs?
No, according to this site: http://www.worldsrichestcountries.com/ The U.S. is the richest Country going by GDP and Liechenstein, in the second list by per capita, (a country in between Austria and switzerland) is mostly Catholic and protestant (Roman Catholic 76.2%, Protestant 7%). On the first list 7 of the top ten countries are Judeo christian based and six of the top ten in the second list.

So you facts are wrong DM.




The difference being in the case of a known crime, the event is known to have happened. Religion is based on an event that isn't proven to have happened.

In the case of the univese, the "crime scene" is the universe!
( An event we can't deny happened, we live in it!)

Well, I don't think anyone here wants to give you personally a difficult time for your beliefs. I think that you have been a very good and gracious defendent for the theology side of the debate. :)
Thanks MR!
That's quite the opposite view when I debate on Atheist forums.

They can and do get down right insulting to any Theist who challenges their beliefs, with few exceptions.
Hmmm... thiests...... personally I like my thiest friends and family. I like most Christians. I like the thoughtfulness, charitable attitude, sense of fellowship and support that most Christians exhibit.
Much of modern, western Christianity brings out the finest, most generous parts of the human psyche. Then why not become one?:smile:

There are many non-religious people who exhibit the same fine characteristics. Imo morality flows from the individual person and does not need some kind of celestial dictatorship to being it forth.This is why born again Christians say their faith is a RELATIONSHIP (with Christ) not merely a religion.

I guess you could say I make a distinction between the characteristics and benefits of Christianity from the organized religion aspect. Religious organizers imo tend to be a bit too fanatical. They are too much about religious rules/dogma/divine threats etc, and not enough about the human element.

For example, I have 2 friends (a married couple) who are Jehovas Witnesses (actually, one is Catholic, the other Jewish, but their JW relatives and friends placed such pressure upon them to convert, they have given up fighting it)

Their son died tragically at age 25. The funeral was a JW affair, the content of which I found offensive.

Not ONE WORD was mentioned about the deceased, his life, his fine characteristics, hopes/dreams/wishes etc. The entire funeral was about reading biblical passages and reminding the mourners about god's role in their lives.

Total nonsense imo, and entirely inappropriate under the circumstances.
The funeral was about the deceased, not the JW's radical interpretation of christianity.JW's are their own sect, denying the deity of Christ, that is NOT true Christianity, thus not exhibiting the true spirit of Christianity.

Thanks MR!
That's quite the opposite view when I debate on Atheist forums.

They can and do get down right insulting to any Theist who challenges their beliefs, with few exceptions.

Then why not become one?:smile:
So..... you cruise the 'Net looking to convert people, hmmm??:)

Heaven knows, the car enthusiasts need saving :lol2:

Most Christians that I know, especially the decent, generous, thoughtful ones, tend to pick-and-choose the parts of Christianity that they like or find useful and discard the rest.

Most do not believe the bible to be literal fact, but believe it to be a guide, with metaphorical (not literal) morality stories

I do not believe I am so different in the end product than most Christians. I try to live a moral, proper and decent life, having empathy and concern for others and trying not to do harm.

The difference is that I do not belive in the 'celestial dictatorship' of god. There is imo no evidence of it, and I feel I must be true to what I know to be fact. I do not believe I need the carrot of heaven or the stick of eternal damnation to tell me how to be a good person. But I can see how others could use such a story in an attempt to manipulate people.

Imo organized religion is more about the power and control some people strive to have over others. It bothers me that religious people are expected to expose themselves to Sunday propeganda in order to prove their worth.

So, I am not religious, in the traditional sense, because I cannot morally go along with the organizational aspect of religion, because I feel it is manipulative and harmful.

Hmmmmm..... I'm an atheist due to my moral principles..... what a concept :)

So..... you cruise the 'Net looking to convert people, hmmm??:)
Actually I stumbled upon an Atheist forum while looking for an answer to a random question. When I saw their discussions, I joined in and got hooked on debating them!
Heaven knows, the car enthusiasts need saving :lol2:

Most Christians that I know, especially the decent, generous, thoughtful ones, tend to pick-and-choose the parts of Christianity that they like or find useful and discard the rest. It only appears that way to non-believers, because of their lack of understanding of bible doctrine and theology.

Most do not believe the bible to be literal fact, but believe it to be a guide, with metaphorical (not literal) morality stories Not all people who profess to be Christians are Christians. ( If you don't believe the book that is the foundation of Christianity, how could you be a true Christian, a real believer?

I do not believe I am so different in the end product than most Christians. I try to live a moral, proper and decent life, having empathy and concern for others and trying not to do harm. Where do the rules for moral, proper and decent living come from?


Imo organized religion is more about the power and control some people strive to have over others. It bothers me that religious people are expected to expose themselves to Sunday propeganda in order to prove their worth. Again, Christianity is a relationship, not just a religion. if you ever want to observe unadulterated Christianity in a church setting, try going to an independent Baptist church. Baptist Doctrine aligns most closely to the bible than most any other denomination.
Also...

As a mechanic, would you be able to prove your worth as a mechanic without showing up at the garage to work on cars regularly?


Hmmmmm..... I'm an atheist due to my moral principles..... what a concept :)

No, according to this site: http://www.worldsrichestcountries.com/ The U.S. is the richest Country going by GDP and Liechenstein, in the second list by per capita, (a country in between Austria and switzerland) is mostly Catholic and protestant (Roman Catholic 76.2%, Protestant 7%). On the first list 7 of the top ten countries are Judeo christian based and six of the top ten in the second list.

So you facts are wrong DM.

fair enough but the point still stands even if there were a single non Judeo-Christian country in the top ten; Judeo-Christianity isn't a cause for wealth or power.


In the case of the univese, the "crime scene" is the universe!
( An event we can't deny happened, we live in it!)

Not what you were saying before.
Your initial point of comparison is that a god creating the universe is the disputed "fact" that there are many differeing eye witness accounts of.

If you want to continue with this analogy and the universe if the crime scene, then currently we are still looking for the perpetrator; not as you are insisting that one has already been found.

You know, I probably should just ask you to dance because we certainly are just going around in circles here :)

It only appears that way to non-believers, because of their lack of understanding of bible doctrine and theology.

Not all people who profess to be Christians are Christians. ( If you don't believe the book that is the foundation of Christianity, how could you be a true Christian, a real believer?
So, does this mean that anyone who disagrees with you on a point of theology is not a Christian? How much deviation is tolerable?

All the serious Christians that I have ever known believe THEY are correct and everyone else is wrong. Imo it takes a pretty enlightened Christian to truly accept and respect the differences between the myriad of Christian franchises.

For example, many of my friends are Catholic and they found it quite peculiar that the Anglicans (me, back then) believed in only 3 Sacraments and not the 7 that they had. They were convinced that things like confession was essential to get into heaven.

Imo these differences, and they way that so many decent Christians are convinced of such differing views tells me that none are credible and all are wrong.


Where do the rules for moral, proper and decent living come from?
Humans have evolved to have cultural and social morality.

For hundreds of thousands of years, humans have lived in small nomadic or hunter/gatherer communities.... and later, primitive farming.

In such communities, cooperation and abidance of the community laws and customs (a.k.a. morality) were essential to the survival of the community. People who did not follow the rules were forced out... or destroyed their community.... but usually would not have a chance to reproduce. So morality has evolved to become part of human nature.

Imo it is arrogant to assume that humans were amoral until about 3000 years ago when they suddenly discovered a magic man in the middle east to tell them how to behave.

Also, I know plenty of very moral, decent self-sacrificing athiests. Furthermore, much of our codified law is 'moral' but relies on common sense and not biblical instruction.

Finally, the bible is occasionally immoral and describes the most appauling acts of slaughter, apparently committed by god (and I really do not see any alleged christian forgiveness or tolerance here):

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090603143244AAL22YE


Again, Christianity is a relationship, not just a religion. if you ever want to observe unadulterated Christianity in a church setting, try going to an independent Baptist church. Baptist Doctrine aligns most closely to the bible than most any other denomination.

Hmmmm, interesting.

My grandparents were Baptist. My grandfather lived in sheer terror of physical bodily resurrection. He was deeply fearful of being resurrected in a coffin underground, unable to escape. FWIW I could never see the benefit of convincing people of such fiction, only to make them terrified for decades.

Do independent Baptists study the bible in Arameic? In Latin? Imo, both are more accurate than a bible that has been sifted through multiple translations. :)

Next, I hope they "pick - and - choose" what they like in the bible, or else they too will be slave-owners (as allowed by the bible), and will be hoping for a great flood to kill everyone except.... those who happen to agree with them.

Oh yes, maybe I shouldn't joke about that one..... isn't that the Rapture that's supposed to be on it's way?


As a mechanic, would you be able to prove your worth as a mechanic without showing up at the garage to work on cars regularly?
I completely agree with you. If one wants to be good at something, one has to practice. The difference is....... various acts of mind control...... from something as innocent as television advertising all the way to cult - brainwashing use the same techniques as the typical Sunday service. It's all about adhering to a certain viewpoint and rejecting the rest.

PS. Please forgive me for the sarcasm.... it does tend to creep in on occasions....... it's not intended to be personal :)

PPS. I only pretend to be a mechanic, on the odd weekend. I'm actually a university-educated corporate manager with widely varying interests.

PPPS: Where do you thing the Westboro Baptist church fits into all of this?

fair enough but the point still stands even if there were a single non Judeo-Christian country in the top ten; Judeo-Christianity isn't a cause for wealth or power.On what basis do you say that? Judeo-Christian principles include hard work, individualism, quality in what you do, besides promises that God will bless the nation that honors him. It is no accident those nations sticking closest to biblical principles are the most successful. And a "rich" nation isn't necessarily a "powerful" one.




Not what you were saying before.
Your initial point of comparison is that a god creating the universe is the disputed "fact" that there are many differeing eye witness accounts of.

If you want to continue with this analogy and the universe if the crime scene, then currently we are still looking for the perpetrator; not as you are insisting that one has already been found.The evidence is overwhelming there is a creator.
Genetics, DNA, the complexity of life, are some of the evidence of a creator as opposed to an "accidental" big bang with no one orchestrating it.

You know, I probably should just ask you to dance because we certainly are just going around in circles here :)


So, does this mean that anyone who disagrees with you on a point of theology is not a Christian? How much deviation is tolerable? It is through faith in Christ, that he was and is the Son of God and God the Son, born of a virgin, without sin, died, was buried, rose again, has the power and will to forgive and clease your sin.
These beliefs are what save a person. It's what you do in your heart with Christ.
All other bible doctrines stem from there, but if you completely deny all or most of the bible you are denying Christ as well.

All the serious Christians that I have ever known believe THEY are correct and everyone else is wrong. Imo it takes a pretty enlightened Christian to truly accept and respect the differences between the myriad of Christian franchises. It doesn't matter what Christian denominations teach or what Christians "believe" and accept.
It's what is in the bible that counts.

For example, many of my friends are Catholic and they found it quite peculiar that the Anglicans (me, back then) believed in only 3 Sacraments and not the 7 that they had. They were convinced that things like confession was essential to get into heaven. Both Anglican and Catholic doctrines deviate from the bible.

Imo these differences, and they way that so many decent Christians are convinced of such differing views tells me that none are credible and all are wrong. I have been to many physicians that have misdiagnosed me.
But I have also been to physicians who correctly diagnosed my problems and got me well.
Because some doctors are wrong and quacks doesn't mean all physicians are.


Humans have evolved to have cultural and social morality.

For hundreds of thousands of years, humans have lived in small nomadic or hunter/gatherer communities.... and later, primitive farming.

In such communities, cooperation and abidance of the community laws and customs (a.k.a. morality) were essential to the survival of the community. People who did not follow the rules were forced out... or destroyed their community.... but usually would not have a chance to reproduce. So morality has evolved to become part of human nature.

Imo it is arrogant to assume that humans were amoral until about 3000 years ago when they suddenly discovered a magic man in the middle east to tell them how to behave. They were not amoral more than three thousand years ago.
The accounts in Genesis go back at least 4000 years before Christ.
Abel, the second son of Adam was a righteous (moral) person, spoken of in Hebrews 11 and in Matthew and Luke he is even named with the prophets of the O.T.

Also, I know plenty of very moral, decent self-sacrificing athiests. Furthermore, much of our codified law is 'moral' but relies on common sense and not biblical instruction.

Finally, the bible is occasionally immoral and describes the most appauling acts of slaughter, apparently committed by god (and I really do not see any alleged christian forgiveness or tolerance here):

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090603143244AAL22YE

MR, do you believe punishment for crimes is immoral?

Hmmmm, interesting.

My grandparents were Baptist. My grandfather lived in sheer terror of physical bodily resurrection. He was deeply fearful of being resurrected in a coffin underground, unable to escape. FWIW I could never see the benefit of convincing people of such fiction, only to make them terrified for decades. God is NOT the author of fear.
Your grandfather had some other problems, not from Baptist doctrine.

Do independent Baptists study the bible in Arameic? In Latin? Imo, both are more accurate than a bible that has been sifted through multiple translations. :)I suggest you read the book "Defending The King James Bible" by D.A. waite.
You can purchase it at Chick publications. It goes into great detail of the quality of the KJV translations, and of the character and qualifications of the translators.



I completely agree with you. If one wants to be good at something, one has to practice. The difference is....... various acts of mind control...... from something as innocent as television advertising all the way to cult - brainwashing use the same techniques as the typical Sunday service. It's all about adhering to a certain viewpoint and rejecting the rest.Yes. The key is to make certain your view point is the correct view or you'll be sorry!

PS. Please forgive me for the sarcasm.... it does tend to creep in on occasions....... it's not intended to be personal :)I'll forgive you, so will Jesus if you ask him!

PPS. I only pretend to be a mechanic, on the odd weekend. I'm actually a university-educated corporate manager with widely varying interests. Corporate manager of an automotive company???

PPPS: Where do you thing the Westboro Baptist church fits into all of this?Those people are NOT filled with the spirit of Christ in their actions.
They make true christians look horrible.

On what basis do you say that? Judeo-Christian principles include hard work, individualism, quality in what you do, besides promises that God will bless the nation that honors him. It is no accident those nations sticking closest to biblical principles are the most successful. And a "rich" nation isn't necessarily a "powerful" one.

Because hard work, individualism, quality in what you do, besides promises that God will bless the nation that honors him is not exclusive to Christianity. If you remove the god honoring part, those qualities aren't exclusive to religion.

If it is a base in Christianity that is the cause for success then surely non-Christians would not be successful.
If non-Christians can be successful then that means you don't need Christianity to be successful; ergo, Judeo-Christianity in the country's founding isn't a cause for them being powerful/rich.

What do you think of the fact that a powerful (Christian) country like the US has 800 Billion dollars of treasury securities held by China and 720ish Billion dollars held by Japan; both not of Christian heritage?
If you look at it from a global economics point of view, the US is very much in the hands of China so what does that say about a country's power?

Yes, you are right, rich isn't neccessarily powerful but if anything, wouldn't you say that a country that inherently has wealth without having to do work i.e it is gifted the wealth, is something more akin to an act of a god to its people?
If a god was favouring its followers, would it not give free wealth to its own people instead of people of another faith. In that respect, wouldn't that give more weight to perhaps the god of the Middle East being the true God?


The evidence is overwhelming there is a creator.
Genetics, DNA, the complexity of life, are some of the evidence of a creator as opposed to an "accidental" big bang with no one orchestrating it.

This is just a 21st century version of ancient man looking at the Sun and going "oooh, magicaly ball in the sky give light; magic ball must be a god".
As many others have used as an example, until they could prove it, everyone including the Church believed that the Earth was flat and that Earth was at the centre of the Universe except science has given us the ability to look at things deeper.
Perhaps this is where science and religion has their biggest difference. Science is waiting to find new answers. Religion thinks it already has an answer and science will never be right.

If it is a base in Christianity that is the cause for success then surely non-Christians would not be successful.
If non-Christians can be successful then that means you don't need Christianity to be successful; ergo, Judeo-Christianity in the country's founding isn't a cause for them being powerful/rich.We are discussing Christian "principles", not Christianity as a belief system.
Yes if an unbeliever, non-Christian, follows biblical principles, even if they don't follow Christ, they will be honored by God for doing so.

What do you think of the fact that a powerful (Christian) country like the US has 800 Billion dollars of treasury securities held by China and 720ish Billion dollars held by Japan; both not of Christian heritage?
If you look at it from a global economics point of view, the US is very much in the hands of China so what does that say about a country's power?It says America has turned from God and obeying his commands, thereby giving their power into the hands of heathen nations. :(

Yes, you are right, rich isn't neccessarily powerful but if anything, wouldn't you say that a country that inherently has wealth without having to do work i.e it is gifted the wealth, is something more akin to an act of a god to its people?
If a god was favouring its followers, would it not give free wealth to its own people instead of people of another faith. In that respect, wouldn't that give more weight to perhaps the god of the Middle East being the true God?
Explain what you mean here even in the Middle east people must work for wealth.
AND God is the God of the Middle East (actually of the whole world.) But where is Israel located?:wink:



This is just a 21st century version of ancient man looking at the Sun and going "oooh, magicaly ball in the sky give light; magic ball must be a god".
As many others have used as an example, until they could prove it, everyone including the Church believed that the Earth was flat and that Earth was at the centre of the Universe except science has given us the ability to look at things deeper.
Perhaps this is where science and religion has their biggest difference. Science is waiting to find new answers. Religion thinks it already has an answer and science will never be right.DM, you didn't address the point that DNA and genetics (discovered by science and proven to be true) Show INTELLIGENT information and orgaization.

Here is some proof from NASA of the Bible being true:




*Thought this was pretty amazing and interesting!! For
all the scientists out there, and for all the students
who have a hard time convincing these people regarding
the truth of the Bible, here's something that shows
God's awesome creation, and that He is still in control. *

*Did you know that the space program is busy proving
that what has been called 'myth' in the Bible is true? *

*Mr. Harold Hill, President of the Curtis Engine Company
in Baltimore, Maryland, and a consultant in the space
program, relates the following development. *

*'I think one of the most amazing things that God has
done for us today happened recently to our astronauts
and space scientists at Green Bel**t**,** * *Maryland* *. *

*They were checking out where the positions of the sun,
moon, and planets would be 100 years and 1,000 years
from now. We have to know this so we won't send up a
satellite and have it bump into something later on in
its orbits. *


*We have to lay out the orbits in terms of
the life of the=2 0satellite and where the
planets will be so the whole thing will not
bog down. *


*They ran the computer measurement back and
forth over the centuries, and it came to a
halt. The computer stopped and put up a red
signal, which meant that there was something
wrong with either the information fed into
it or with the results as compared to the
standards. *


*They called in the service department to
check it out, and they said, 'What's wrong?'
Well, they found there is a day missing in
space in elapsed time. *


*They scratched their heads and tore their
hair out. There was no answer. *


*Finally a Christian man on the team said,
'You know, one time I was in Sunday School,
and they talked about the sun standing
still.' While they didn't believe him, they
didn't have an answer either, so they said,
'Show us, ' *


*He got a Bible and went to the book of
Joshua where they found a pretty ridiculous
statement for any one with 'common sense.' *


*There they found the Lord saying to Joshua, *


*'Fear them not, I have delivered them into thy hand;
there shall not a man of them stand before Thee.' *


*Joshua was concerned because he was surrounded by the
enemy! And if darkness fell, they would overpower them.
So Joshua asked the Lord to make the sun stand still!
That's right.... 'The sun stood still and the moon
stayed and lasted not to go down about a whole day!' *

*(Joshua 10:12-13) *


*The astronauts and scientists said, There is the
missing day! They checked the computers going back into
the time it was written and found it was close but not
close enough. The elapsed time that was missing back in
Joshua's day was 23 hours and 20 minutes**,** **not a
whole day.. *


*They read the Bible, and there it was about
[approximately] a day.. These little words in the Bible
are important, but they were still in trouble because if
you cannot account for 40 minutes, you'll still be in
trouble 1000 years from now. *


*Forty minutes had to be found because it can be
multiplied many times over in orbits. As the Christian
employee thought about it, he remembered somewhere in
the Bible where it said the sun went BACKWARDS. *


*The scientists told him he was out of his mind, but
they got out the Book and read these words in 2 Kings
that told of the following story: Hezekiah, on his death
bed, was visited by the prophet Isaiah who told him that
he was not going to die. Hezekiah asked for a sign as
proof. Isaiah said 'Do you want the sun to go ahead 10
degrees?' *


*Hezekiah said, 'It is nothing for the sun to go ahead
10 degrees, but let the shadow return backward 10
degrees.' Isaiah spoke to the Lord, and the Lord brought
the shadow ten degrees BACKWARD! Ten degrees is exactly
40 minutes!' *


*Twenty-three hours and 20 minutes in Joshua, plus 40
minutes in Second Kings make the missing day in the
universe! Isn't it amazing? *


*References: Joshua 10:8 and 12,** **13 and 2 Kings
20:9-11. *

Here is some proof from NASA of the Bible being true:
Okay, let me be the first one to call this story nonsense.

It took me only about 10 seconds to come up with a bouquet of sites that consider this story to be completely untrue and has NOTHING to do with NASA:

http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/j/joshuaday.htm
http://freethought.mbdojo.com/nasaspoof.html
http://www.progressivetheology.org/principles/Missing-Day.html
http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs/1117.asp
http://www.snopes.com/religion/lostday.asp
http://urbanlegends.about.com/library/bl_nasa_missing_day2.htm

Even religious researchers consider this story to be groundless:

http://www.biblearchaeology.org/post/2005/08/Joshuas-Long-Day-and-Mesopotamian-Celestial-Omen-Texts.aspx


Seriously, CL8, how can you possibly pass off such a deeply flawed story as any kind of 'proof'? Imho, it only serves to debase your argument and erode your credibility. Imho whoever fed you that load of nonsense is manipulating you. Frankly, the fact that you attempted to pass it off here as being true (without any verification) shows that you are all to willing to be manipulated.

But do not feel bad, religion is all about manipulation. :)

Since it seems that the bible is the basis for your understanding of truth and the universe in general, perhaps you should read about its recent revision:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/group-of-us-conservatives-rewrite-the-bible/article1319247/

Before you dismiss such a re-write as not being the 'true' bible, consider that ALL bibles are written, translated and transcribed by humans, not god. It is a product of human, not divine minds, and thus subject to bias and flaws... to manipulate people. I think one of the commentators on that Globe and Mail article says it best:

Ah, so these right wing "christians" are finally admitting that the bible is not the word of god, but merely the word of folks who want to dominate and impose their beliefs on the rest of humanity. Thanks for the clarification and for coming out of the closet, but it wasn't really that much of a secret anymore.

Finally, I thought it was odd enough that you compared christian theology ( a deeply flawed and fractured account of fictional mythology and events) to doctors and medicine (a precise, measurable and provable practice). Comparing the two is unfounded and utterly illogical as they have nothing in common related to their processes in arriving at a likely or quantifiable scenario.

I find it somewhat amusing, (and predictable) that any christian who does not follow your particular religious interpretation (and it seems like that's most christians) is wrong or deviant. Frankly, it harms your argument to claim that many millions of Catholics, Anglicans, JW's etc. are wrong because it radicalizes your viewpoint.

I dismissed much of your arguments as religious hyperbole... that is, it's your opinion. But to pass off obviously false NASA stories as being true means you have little credibility on this subject. Respectfully, this debate has come to an end.... at least for me :).




e:
*Thought this was pretty amazing and interesting!! For
all the scientists out there, and for all the students
who have a hard time convincing these people regarding
the truth of the Bible, here's something that shows
God's awesome creation, and that He is still in control. *

*Did you know that the space program is busy proving
that what has been called 'myth' in the Bible is true? *

*Mr. Harold Hill, President of the Curtis Engine Company
in Baltimore, Maryland, and a consultant in the space
program, relates the following development. *

*'I think one of the most amazing things that God has
done for us today happened recently to our astronauts
and space scientists at Green Bel**t**,** * *Maryland* *. *

*They were checking out where the positions of the sun,
moon, and planets would be 100 years and 1,000 years
from now. We have to know this so we won't send up a
satellite and have it bump into something later on in
its orbits. *


*We have to lay out the orbits in terms of
the life of the=2 0satellite and where the
planets will be so the whole thing will not
bog down. *


*They ran the computer measurement back and
forth over the centuries, and it came to a
halt. The computer stopped and put up a red
signal, which meant that there was something
wrong with either the information fed into
it or with the results as compared to the
standards. *


*They called in the service department to
check it out, and they said, 'What's wrong?'
Well, they found there is a day missing in
space in elapsed time. *


*They scratched their heads and tore their
hair out. There was no answer. *


*Finally a Christian man on the team said,
'You know, one time I was in Sunday School,
and they talked about the sun standing
still.' While they didn't believe him, they
didn't have an answer either, so they said,
'Show us, ' *


*He got a Bible and went to the book of
Joshua where they found a pretty ridiculous
statement for any one with 'common sense.' *


*There they found the Lord saying to Joshua, *


*'Fear them not, I have delivered them into thy hand;
there shall not a man of them stand before Thee.' *


*Joshua was concerned because he was surrounded by the
enemy! And if darkness fell, they would overpower them.
So Joshua asked the Lord to make the sun stand still!
That's right.... 'The sun stood still and the moon
stayed and lasted not to go down about a whole day!' *

*(Joshua 10:12-13) *


*The astronauts and scientists said, There is the
missing day! They checked the computers going back into
the time it was written and found it was close but not
close enough. The elapsed time that was missing back in
Joshua's day was 23 hours and 20 minutes**,** **not a
whole day.. *


*They read the Bible, and there it was about
[approximately] a day.. These little words in the Bible
are important, but they were still in trouble because if
you cannot account for 40 minutes, you'll still be in
trouble 1000 years from now. *


*Forty minutes had to be found because it can be
multiplied many times over in orbits. As the Christian
employee thought about it, he remembered somewhere in
the Bible where it said the sun went BACKWARDS. *


*The scientists told him he was out of his mind, but
they got out the Book and read these words in 2 Kings
that told of the following story: Hezekiah, on his death
bed, was visited by the prophet Isaiah who told him that
he was not going to die. Hezekiah asked for a sign as
proof. Isaiah said 'Do you want the sun to go ahead 10
degrees?' *


*Hezekiah said, 'It is nothing for the sun to go ahead
10 degrees, but let the shadow return backward 10
degrees.' Isaiah spoke to the Lord, and the Lord brought
the shadow ten degrees BACKWARD! Ten degrees is exactly
40 minutes!' *


*Twenty-three hours and 20 minutes in Joshua, plus 40
minutes in Second Kings make the missing day in the
universe! Isn't it amazing? *


*References: Joshua 10:8 and 12,** **13 and 2 Kings
20:9-11. *

Thanks, MR for that info on those sites.
I sent those sites to my friend who sent me that info on NASA.
I will let you know what the reply is (if any).

Incidentally, that NASA story being true or false really has no bearing on
the argument of whether this universe was created or not.

(Heck, it doesn't even disprove the account of Joshuas long day, or the sun dial going back in Hezekiahs time.)

Also there are two questions I asked in my post to you you did not answer!

Sincerely
Cl8

We are discussing Christian "principles", not Christianity as a belief system.
Yes if an unbeliever, non-Christian, follows biblical principles, even if they don't follow Christ, they will be honored by God for doing so....

...Explain what you mean here even in the Middle east people must work for wealth.
AND God is the God of the Middle East (actually of the whole world....

But you say that to be Christian and to be in favour of your God, you have to accept that Christ is the Son of God and that he died on the cross for our sins.
That is one of the things that Islam does not hold to be true and yet we have many Middle Eastern countries that have been gifted wealth by way of oil and gas and gold. What of China's current economic power?
Following this, it means you don't need Christ to be in God's favour; ergo, you don't need Christianity.
What does this say about your logic?
What does this say about your Christianity?


It says America has turned from God and obeying his commands, thereby giving their power into the hands of heathen nations.

And this is typical of religion in that anything can be spun to suit what you want to say.
If say a Christian nation does well it is because it is Christian.
If a Christian nation does badly, it is because they are behaving non Christian like.
If a non Christian nation does well it is because God is punishing the Christian nation for being bad.
If a non Christian nation does badly it is because they are non Christian.

Great arguments there.


DM, you didn't address the point that DNA and genetics (discovered by science and proven to be true) Show INTELLIGENT information and orgaization.

Once again; it is your opinion that the observed order of the universe is an indication of a design. You then take that supposition to mean that someone designed it.
That is called a circular argument.
1+1=2 doesn't prove that god exists.
Of course 1+1=2 also doesn't prove that god doesn't exist but that isn't the point of 1+1.

Incidentally, that NASA story being true or false really has no bearing on
the argument of whether this universe was created or not.
But that isn't the argument.
This universe existing isn't in question; the question is the existance of a god creator.
I refer once again to the farting invisible man.
Why is it easier to believe that someone created it and that the universe can't just be?


But like MagicRat, I too begin to tire of this chase and that "proof" you give kinda says it all. A person of rational mind would've at least pondered the reliabilty of the source but some people are just willing to accept things without checking.

But you say that to be Christian and to be in favour of your God, you have to accept that Christ is the Son of God and that he died on the cross for our sins.
That is one of the things that Islam does not hold to be true and yet we have many Middle Eastern countries that have been gifted wealth by way of oil and gas and gold. What of China's current economic power?
Following this, it means you don't need Christ to be in God's favour; ergo, you don't need Christianity.
What does this say about your logic?
What does this say about your Christianity?




And this is typical of religion in that anything can be spun to suit what you want to say.
If say a Christian nation does well it is because it is Christian.
If a Christian nation does badly, it is because they are behaving non Christian like.
If a non Christian nation does well it is because God is punishing the Christian nation for being bad.
If a non Christian nation does badly it is because they are non Christian.

Great arguments there.

Here is a great observation by De Tocqueville:

Muhammad (http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Muhammad) brought down from heaven and put into the Koran (http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Qur%27an) not religious doctrines only, but political maxims, criminal and civil laws, and scientific theories. The Gospels, on the other hand, deal only with the general relations between man and God and between man and man. Beyond that, they teach nothing and do not oblige people to believe anything. That alone, among a thousand reasons, is enough to show that Islam will not be able to hold its power long in ages of enlightenment and democracy, while Christianity is destined to reign in such ages, as in all others.And this one often attributed to De Tocqueville:

In the end, the state of the Union comes down to the character of the
people. ... I sought for the greatness and genius of America in her
commodious harbors, her ample rivers, and it was not there. I sought for
it in the fertile fields, and boundless prairies, and it was not there.
I sought it in her rich mines, and vast world commerce, and it was not
there. Not until I went into the churches of America and heard her
pulpits aflame with righteousness did I understand the secret of her
genius and power." Once again; it is your opinion that the observed order of the universe is an indication of a design.Why do you insist on denying the obvious? ANY observed order, outside of "nature" you would attribute to an intelligent human being ( Cars, houses, bikes etc.) But when it comes to biological life you outright deny it! That is illogical thinking on your part because you wish so much there was no God. You then take that supposition to mean that someone designed it.
That is called a circular argument.
1+1=2 doesn't prove that god exists.
Of course 1+1=2 also doesn't prove that god doesn't exist but that isn't the point of 1+1.


But that isn't the argument.
This universe existing isn't in question; the question is the existance of a god creator.If something is CREATED it must have a CREATOR!!!:screwy:
I refer once again to the farting invisible man.
Why is it easier to believe that someone created it and that the universe can't just be?


But like MagicRat, I too begin to tire of this chase and that "proof" you give kinda says it all. A person of rational mind would've at least pondered the reliabilty of the source but some people are just willing to accept things without checking.People of rational minds also will not deny an intelligent creator when they observe something as intellectually complex as the basic building blocks of life!

and how do those De Toqueville quotes relate to my questions?
Well, apart from say something good about Christianity whilst saying something bad about Islam.
If I were a younger person, I might just insert a smiley of some sort here.

Why do you insist on denying the obvious? ANY observed order, outside of "nature" you would attribute to an intelligent human being ( Cars, houses, bikes etc.) But when it comes to biological life you outright deny it! That is illogical thinking on your part because you wish so much there was no God.

why is it obvious?

yes, when I see a car I know a man created it.
If I so wished, I could ask who the individuals were involved in every step such is the technology today.
Show me god; if he exists why can't he be proven?
I mean, I can find the guy who designed my car and send him a message saying "thanks". Why can't I do the same to god?

And no, you have got it wrong.
It is the religious who are desperate for god to exist; those that do not believe would believe if they were shown god. I'm not so sure the same is true the other way around.

If something is CREATED it must have a CREATOR!!!:screwy:People of rational minds also will not deny an intelligent creator when they observe something as intellectually complex as the basic building blocks of life!
As pointed out before, this is word play but it does bring up certain questions.
If something is designed to be then that suggests that there is only one way to do things, especially when it comes to something as complex as life. As you should know, animal life is created when a sperm and egg "mate".
This is the designed way.
No other way should work, right?
So how that does explain non sperm cell cloning?
If a being existed that could create all of what we know how could something so apparently arbitary exist/happen?

We were created in Christ's image by God, and each of us have an intelligently, purposefully designed life to live for our short time here on Earth. Live it, love it and enjoy it knowing that it is with purpose, not accident, you are here.

Respectfully, even as trite propaganda, this statement is flawed.

We were created in Christ's image by God,

This implies that Christ came before mankind... which is untrue.

It also implies that Christ and god are two separate entities, which, the last time I looked contravenes christian theology.

Respectfully, even as trite propaganda, this statement is flawed.



This implies that Christ came before mankind... which is untrue.

It also implies that Christ and god are two separate entities, which, the last time I looked contravenes christian theology.

"God created man in his own image". My apologies.

and how do those De Toqueville quotes relate to my questions?Because your comments were mocking Nations with Christian roots, as if the Christian roots had no bearing on the success or failure of that nation. Those quotes show De Toquville (and others) can see the superior, positive benefit of Christian faith to a nation.



why is it obvious?

yes, when I see a car I know a man created it.
If I so wished, I could ask who the individuals were involved in every step such is the technology today.
Show me god; if he exists why can't he be proven?
I mean, I can find the guy who designed my car and send him a message saying "thanks". Why can't I do the same to god? :runaround: DM, take a good, thoughtful look at yourself! Can you make your own body shorter or taller, could you recreate any part of your body the way you were born with it? Someone keeps you heart pumping, your brain thinking, all your organs working and it's not you or any person on earth. That is great evidence of God.

And no, you have got it wrong.
It is the religious who are desperate for god to exist; those that do not believe would believe if they were shown god. I'm not so sure the same is true the other way around. ANY part of nature shows God exists. He doesn't reveal himself like any other person, because he wants us to accept him by faith.
And his holiness and human sinfulness do not mix well thats why we can't se him with our eyes. His holiness would consume us.


As pointed out before, this is word play but it does bring up certain questions.
If something is designed to be then that suggests that there is only one way to do things, especially when it comes to something as complex as life. As you should know, animal life is created when a sperm and egg "mate".
This is the designed way.
No other way should work, right?
So how that does explain non sperm cell cloning?This topic should be a thread of it's own!
according to this site:
http://learn.genetics.utah.edu/content/tech/cloning/whatiscloning/

"somatic cell nuclear transfer" is taking the nucleus from a somatic cell from another living creature and implanting it in an egg.
That living creature where the somatic cell came from, was created with a SPERM and egg! Thats why it already has two sets of Chromosomes!

( A sperm was still needed for that cloned creature.)
This method has also been shown to be inferior with many defects!

If a being existed that could create all of what we know how could something so apparently arbitary exist/happen?When biologists can make life from plain dirt from the ground, and nothing else, then you might have an argument that God is not needed to create life.

"God created man in his own image". My apologies.

+1 Akboss!

It's good to see another Theist on this forum!

"God created man in his own image". My apologies.
You need not apologize, but thank you anyways :) Respectfully, you are simply repeating the flawed religious advertising that is being hammered into your head every Sunday.

Your statement is still nonsense. This statement is just another piece of theology (aka fairy tales) that makes no sense.

Isn't god supposed to be perfect?

Then why is man so flawed? Man is susceptible to disease, genetic faults, injury, faulty memory, occasionally evil in intent and deed.... etc. Misery and death can come to people in so many different ways and often by no fault of the affected individual.

If god created man in his own image, then god is terribly flawed......

Because your comments were mocking Nations with Christian roots, as if the Christian roots had no bearing on the success or failure of that nation.

no.
I was answering this
Do you think it's by accident the most powerful nation(s) are founded on Judeo- Christian beliefs and principles (not Muslim, Hindu or other religions)?

I pointed out that if what you are infering is true, then countries of other religious origins would not have power.
You then amended yourself to say that what you meant was Christian qualities.
I then pointed out that those qualities are not exclusive to Christianity.
You then said that even if you are not Christian, if you behave like a Christian, the Christian God will still show you favour.

That's when I posted this.
And this is typical of religion in that anything can be spun to suit what you want to say.
If say a Christian nation does well it is because it is Christian.
If a Christian nation does badly, it is because they are behaving non Christian like.
If a non Christian nation does well it is because God is punishing the Christian nation for being bad.
If a non Christian nation does badly it is because they are non Christian.


take a good, thoughtful look at yourself! Can you make your own body shorter or taller, could you recreate any part of your body the way you were born with it? Someone keeps you heart pumping, your brain thinking, all your organs working and it's not you or any person on earth. That is great evidence of God....

...When biologists can make life from plain dirt from the ground, and nothing else, then you might have an argument that God is not needed to create life.

Can your God?
According to the Bible, if it were to be taken literally, God created life from nothing and yet you, like many others have now amended that to mean that God created the stuff that life can come from. Just like the belief that the Earth was flat was amended when it was found that it wasn't and like the fact that Earth isn't at the centre of the universe.
Why is life anything but a by product of the universe; just like how the wind and the waves are a by product of gravity and pressure/temperature differences etc?

In any case, which is it?
Did your God create life from nothing or did he just create the means for life?
In any case, I still propose the same to you.
Show me how God made life from plain dirt from the ground and I'll believe in God.

once again
Someone keeps you heart pumping, your brain thinking, all your organs working and it's not you or any person on earth. That is great evidence of God....
this is the same as ancient man looking at the sun and calling it god.
God is created in the image of man to explain things that he, at the time, cannot explain.
Can you prove me wrong?

This method has also been shown to be inferior with many defects!
Well what do you know, natural life has also produced "inferior" life and many defects.

no.





Can your God?
According to the Bible, if it were to be taken literally, God created life from nothingWrong!
You haven't read Genesis very carefully.

Genesis 1:1 States "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth" This creation was out of nothing.

But in Genesis 2:7 we read " "And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground...."

This is why I made the comment about a biologist making life from dirt, because thats the way God created mankind. and yet you, like many others have now amended that to mean that God created the stuff that life can come from. Just like the belief that the Earth was flat was amended when it was found that it wasn't and like the fact that Earth isn't at the centre of the universe. Have you ever read Isaiah 40:22? "It his he that sitteth upon the CIRCLE of the earth...." Bible believers who knew this verse knew the earth was round and not flat.
Why is life anything but a by product of the universe; just like how the wind and the waves are a by product of gravity and pressure/temperature differences etc?Show me a by product like wind, waves ect. that can think, reason, feel and have relationships.

In any case, which is it?
Did your God create life from nothing or did he just create the means for life?
In any case, I still propose the same to you.
Show me how God made life from plain dirt from the ground and I'll believe in God. Ok ^ I showed you from scripture! So now you are a Theist, RIGHT???

once again

this is the same as ancient man looking at the sun and calling it god.
God is created in the image of man to explain things that he, at the time, cannot explain.
Can you prove me wrong?Your analogy is wrong because the bible believer aknowledges NO created thing is God, not even the sun, God is invisible, and a being apart from his creation.


Well what do you know, natural life has also produced "inferior" life and many defects.Not the majority of the time.

CL8, you temptress!

Your posts are such a delightful mass of illogic, irrationality and selective thinking that they just beg for my reply...... so here I am back again!!! :banghead:

First of all, arguing that man was formed from dirt, which itself was formed from nothing is perilously close to saying that man was created from nothing.
But by following your theological argument, I see that YOU have not read the bible very well. Drunken Monkey is correct.

I went down to my massive library and got my 1877 Oxford edition of the King James. That passage said "god formed man of the dust of the ground. "
Obviously, man was formed....... but it was not living.

god supposedly "breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."
So, the body was made from dirt, but the LIFE was created by god from nothing.

However, the fact that you are using a book of fairy tales written by man to judge the formation of man is ridiculous. It's a fable, nothing more.

No wonder that the time when everyone believed in god and Christianity ruled the known world was called.... the DARK AGES!
:)
Respectully, your posts remind me of a quote attributed to Carl Sagan:
You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep-seated need to believe. :)

OK MagicRat, ( I figured you wouldn't ignore me for long!:grinyes:)

You just took the point to another level.
Without the body, there is no life on earth. The two go hand in hand.

So I could also say, " when biologists are able to create a body from dirt...."
They cannot, not in the way any human or animal body is born with.

Also, if you are not satisfied with the account of the creation of human life from dirt, take a read of Exodus 8:16-19.
That's where God told Moses to have Aaron smite the dust with his rod, then it became lice (LIFE!)
Pharaohs magicians acknowledged this was "the finger of God" doing this. ( They could not create life from dust!)

I would love for you to explain how it is logical that this universe (and life) came together by itself without a creator.
That concept has more illogic in it than the belief in a creator God does!


Sincerely CL8

P.S. If you are an Atheist, what are you doing with an 1877 KJV bible in your library? :/

P.S. If you are an Atheist, what are you doing with an 1877 KJV bible in your library? :/
Actually, I have several vintage bibles. Antiques, including books, is one of my hobbies.

I can appreciate the bible from an historic and literary sense without being deluded by it. :)

Besides, on cold winter nights, I just have to hold them in my hands and the burning sensation just warms me right up :newburn: :)

As for the creation of the universe, I may have posted this before. It has been developed over decades (and still is developing) by people much more qualified than me to do so.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bang

Hmm, I would love to have a collection of vintage bibles!

I found an interesting statement in your Wikipedia reference (which I have been told Wikipedia is NOT a reliable source because anybody can write anything about any topic, without it being fact checked.)

the Big Bang theory cannot and does not provide any explanation for such an initial condition; rather, it describes and explains the general evolution of the Universe since that instant.Well, the author admits the big bang describes the general evolution "process", but CAN NOT explain WHY it exists!

The "why" is where theology and the concept of God come in!

Hmm, I would love to have a collection of vintage bibles!

I found an interesting statement in your Wikipedia reference (which I have been told Wikipedia is NOT a reliable source because anybody can write anything about any topic, without it being fact checked.)

Well, the author admits the big bang describes the general evolution "process", but CAN NOT explain WHY it exists!

The "why" is where theology and the concept of God come in!
I have referenced Wikipedia articles before about theology. Why have you never questioned their accuracy?
Oh, yes, it's because theology is subjective; it can be interpreted to mean just about anything, so accuracy is not important :)

Wikipedia is not a perfect reference, but most decent articles have references which can be checked.

Most people I have come across agree that Wikipedia is a great first-step in researching most topics. Furthermore, earlier versions of any article are also available. I have found that most sicentific articles seem to be closely monitored by responsible authors. Often, informed participants do take it upon themselves to review and discuss changes.

Now, just because there is a gap in scientific theory or proof is no justification to start throwing god-fairy-tales into the mix. Science is, by nature, demonstrable and provable, or, in the absence of proof, supportable by known principles and understanding. Theology has none of those and this is not a credible source for such understanding.

There are scientific theories for what existed before the Big Bang..... they were simply not included in scope of that article. And, no the credible ones do not include god.

Such theories state that the universe is cyclical (click here) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyclic_model), that is the Big Bang is preceded by the Big Crunch (click here) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Crunch), or the Big Bounce.(click here) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bounce)

Finally, as for my bibles..... it turns out I have about 10 vintage editions, including one British version (circa 1850 or so) that's entirely in Latin.
Nice to look an but not very useful. :)

Well MR, as for he accuracy of Wikipedia you did acknowledge the same thing here:
From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaac_Newton
Yes, I know Wikipedia is not the best source, but it is well referenced;
But I recently heard someone else say the same thing that's why I mentioned it.

As far as those other theories, a quote from the article on cyclical models:
. The theory describes a universe exploding into existence not just once, but repeatedly over time.[ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyclic_model#cite_note-Steinhardt.2C_Turok_2001a-2)It still comes into existence at some time, without explaining why.

The "Big Crunch" from the article seems to be a theory of what WILL happen, than what HAS happened.
And still Why and what what would initially cause those forces to crunch or collapse?

It is all dependent on the laws of physics and nature.
Why do all those laws remain constant?
Why are they there in the first place?

Your sources do not answer those questions.

Also what you, Drunken Monkey and other Atheists do, is admit if you can SEE who created something like a car, watch, boat, Etc., then there is a creator of it.

On the other hand, you completely dismiss and even deny the overwhelming evidence of intellectual thought and planning for this universe.

And since you cannot see the creator of it, you deny he exists.
That is completely illogical.

Have you ever been to France to see the Eiffel Tower?

We know it is there and many people do see it.

Yet you or I will never be able to see it's creator, Gustave Eiffel.
You may be told about him, maybe see a picture of him, but the man
is not here on earth, you will not see him or meet him.

Does that mean the Eiffel Tower had no creator, because we can not see him in person?

enough said (for now)

sincerely
CL8

And still Why and what what would initially cause those forces to crunch or collapse?

It is all dependent on the laws of physics and nature.
Why do all those laws remain constant?
Why are they there in the first place?

Your sources do not answer those questions.

Also what you, Drunken Monkey and other Atheists do, is admit if you can SEE who created something like a car, watch, boat, Etc., then there is a creator of it.

On the other hand, you completely dismiss and even deny the overwhelming evidence of intellectual thought and planning for this universe.

And since you cannot see the creator of it, you deny he exists.
That is completely illogical.

Uh, no it is not illogical.

Why not claim that a giant purple polka-dot monster created the universe? Why is it just your god who gets the credit?

Imo, they are equally credible explanations. Neither your god nor a polka-dot monster is more likely, because there is NO evidence that any intellegence created the universe.

Therefore, it is entirely logical to conclude that, in the absence of evidence or credible supporting theory, there is NO creator.... not a god nor a polka-dot monster.

Why do you believe there has to be a reason for this creation? It just exists.

For example, the universe is full of inert items, like trillions of asteriods, rocks etc.... all lifeless, all just orbiting, spinning around etc. We cannot use them..... we cannot see most of them..... so why do we need to say they were created to serve a function? .

You see, many religious people claim god created earth and all its creatures so benefit mankind, right? So who does space rocks a billion light years away from us actually help us? They don't, but for ego-reasons, some people like to claim they have been deliberately put there.

Therefore, I think it is the height of arrogance and misplaced pride to claim that god did create the universe, because it is simply so huge.

The universe is 14.5 billion years old. It has billions of galaxies, each one with billions of stars and planets. All these objects span billions of light years in distance.
And out of all this stuff, some people are so arrogant as to claim that the handful of people who attend independent Baptist churches are somehow the center of the creator's attention?

They claim that, out of the 14.5 billion years of age, only a particular church that has been around just a few decades or so has it right?

That shows some seriously ego-driven delusion!
What might they say??
"Sorry god-creator... out of all the trillions of stars and planets out there, out of the billions of years of history, only WE understand your true nature, because WE are the most important!" :)

Imo people like that must be so self-righteous and so self assured as to believe anything, so long as they were the center of attention.
Imho such beliefs are purely self-serving arrogance. :)

(BTW I am not criticizing you personally, I am criticizing the relevant theological interpretation :) )

Uh, no it is not illogical.

Why not claim that a giant purple polka-dot monster created the universe? Why is it just your god who gets the credit?

Imo, they are equally credible explanations. Neither your god nor a polka-dot monster is more likely, because there is NO evidence that any intellegence created the universe. :disappoin :crying:
MagicRat, MagicRat, MagicRat, You disappoint me, and make me cry for your soul.
You are evidently of high intelligence, and a very well mannered, polite person.
But you, for some reason, do not want to see and admit that the biology of life and laws of physics (subjects only the highly intelligent do well in, in school) shows a highly intelligent person was involved in making the universe.

It's not hard to see.
Isn't the truth, you just don't like the thought of a holy God, because you know your actions would offend him, so you deny his existence?



Why do you believe there has to be a reason for this creation? It just exists.

For example, the universe is full of inert items, like trillions of asteriods, rocks etc.... all lifeless, all just orbiting, spinning around etc. We cannot use them..... we cannot see most of them..... so why do we need to say they were created to serve a function? .
You see, many religious people claim god created earth and all its creatures so benefit mankind, right? So who does space rocks a billion light years away from us actually help us? They don't, but for ego-reasons, some people like to claim they have been deliberately put there. It's all a way for God to show us who he is, outside of his word.


And out of all this stuff, some people are so arrogant as to claim that the handful of people who attend independent Baptist churches are somehow the center of the creator's attention?

They claim that, out of the 14.5 billion years of age, only a particular church that has been around just a few decades or so has it right?MR, first, it's not "BAPTISTS" that are the center of Gods attention.
ALL people are the center of Gods focus to save and bring into a right relationship with him.

Second, "Baptists" are well more than a few decades old!
Are you saying the Baptist denomination only got started in the 1970s'?

The Baptist college I graduated from was started in the 1930s!
If you research Baptist history on the internet, most sites agree the first official "Baptist" church started in the early 1600s, however deeper research shows there was always a line of believers, holding the same doctrine as Baptists today, which aligns with the doctrines of the New testament Churches, who were always separate from the state or Catholic church. They were not always called Baptists though.

That shows some seriously ego-driven delusion!
What might they say??
"Sorry god-creator... out of all the trillions of stars and planets out there, out of the billions of years of history, only WE understand your true nature, because WE are the most important!" :)

Imo people like that must be so self-righteous and so self assured as to believe anything, so long as they were the center of attention.
Imho such beliefs are purely self-serving arrogance. :)

(BTW I am not criticizing you personally, I am criticizing the relevant theological interpretation :) )I realize it's nothing personal, but really aren't we all "ego driven"?

When I wasn't even looking for God, I experienced a miracle of healing by him. His spirit drew me to search for him and his truth.
It ended up leading me to the Baptist church, from Catholicism.

The Lord put a passion in my heart for him and his word.
This is nothing I would have done on my own.

Thank you for the insight. :)

I have read that the Baptist lineage is very old and in part, distinct from the series of events that gave rise to what we know as the Protestant faiths.

Imho there is a strong distinction between religion as a source for hard and fast evidence about the universe; and religion used to enrich our personal lives. One is delusional (sorry) but the other is imo often highly beneficial.

You're welcome MagicRat.

I believe I have put the best arguments and evidence up that I can for belief in a creator.

At this point, only the spirit of God can change your heart and mind.
I know I can not.

Therefore this discussion has exhausted itself.

Sincerely,
CL8

P.S.
What happened to drunken monkey?

What happened to drunken monkey?

I'm in Venice.
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I've read a few posts here on and off, interesting stuff. I've made a few remarks but want to make a few more - not trying to make waves, just share my perspective.

I find it interesting that we always try to test our science against God, but when he created the world, do you think he really pulled out a Mayan calendar and did what would make sense to us according to our timelines? I don't think so. We try the best we can to apply our science and math to grasp the magnitude of creation, but are always skeptical (and rightly so) because our Universe is such a vast and intricate place. I don't think we will ever be able to apply science to religion without faith, and to me, that's part of what gives it credibility.

I'm not arrogant enough to say I know how the Universe was created or how we came to be, but I have faith that God is the hand that created it. Beyond that, we are all guessing. The scientific field expands with new information every day, and will continue to do so, and subsequently we will never really have a definitive answer from science. If you look back to the origin of science, it was the study of God's creation. How much our attitudes have changed. Until we 'figure it all out', which is doubtful, our methods of analyzing what happened in the past will be educated guesses at best. And personally speaking, creation makes sense to me, even with what we know about the world around us. Imagine God got the same amount of attention Darwin did in modern biology and chemistry! When 95% of the community is quoting a theory made in 1859, and only 5% are left defending a 2000-year-old truth (and they are ridiculed), it makes articles supporting evolution/unintelligent design very easy to come by.

The modern church is screwed up, no doubt. I think that is maybe the cause of so many credibility issues with the modern church. FOX news is more than happy to post a special on how pastors are caught with child pornography, or nuns are stealing money. And it's shameful. But as I presume atheists aren't proud of Hitler, nor are Christians proud of those that set a bad example. The word is truth! Part of being human is that we make mistakes, we screw up once in a while, and some more than others. And when we remove the ability for people to make mistakes, well, we are paving the way for an intolerant and unjust society.

Anyways, as a faulted and screwed up Christian I write this, to no avail other than to put my own ideas out there. But putting my life daily in the faith that God is not a crutch, nor a weapon, I humbly believe that the world we live in and all good things within it exist because of his grace. I won't tell anybody who believes otherwise that they are stupid or wrong, just that I believe differently. What a great country (countries) we live in where we can share this freely.

Cheers,
Akboss.

Another point Akboss is that God created time, so he does not exist in the confines of time as we do.
Also, Christians don't need to point out the wrong or stupid beliefs of others as much as show how the Christian faith in God makes much more sense.


And Drunken monkey, are you so busy in Venice that you can't respond to posts here?:rofl:

i) quoting doesn't work on my mobile browse
ii) typing messages on my phone is a pain
iii) i have better things to do here than talk about something that doesn't exist.

As you keep saying, this discussion isn't going anywhere. If i have failed to address anything, excuse me. I do have one other question; if you can't accept that the universe can just exist, why can you instead believe that a god can just exist?
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But as I presume atheists aren't proud of Hitler,
Why would they be? Hitler was a Christian...

Okay, CL8, we're having a pleasant discussion here :), but I must take issue on these statements.

Another point Akboss is that God created time, so he does not exist in the confines of time as we do.
Whoa, hold on there!
Where is this written? How are you attributing god to this?

Time is not matter nor is it energy. Therefore it is not part of the heavens or the earth and can neither be created nor destroyed.

So, where did you get this idea?


Also, Christians don't need to point out the wrong or stupid beliefs of others

Well, Christians may not need to do so, but that does not stop many from doing so.
In this thread, you yourself have pointed out the wrong beliefs of the Muslims, Catholics, Jehovas Witnesses, Anglicans and some Baptists.

Just trying to be helpful :)

Okay, CL8, we're having a pleasant discussion here :), but I must take issue on these statements.


Whoa, hold on there!
Where is this written? How are you attributing god to this?

Time is not matter nor is it energy. Therefore it is not part of the heavens or the earth and can neither be created nor destroyed.

So, where did you get this idea? From a scriptural perspective Genesis 1:1 Says "in the BEGINNING God created the heaven and the earth" "beginning" show the start of time.

Add to this the account of creation are 6 "days" , a measure of time.

Take a look at Genesis 1:14 "And God said let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days and years."

Of course the emphasis is mine, but seasons, days and years are all measures of TIME. God here is declaring he created the celestial bodies so people could measure TIME. I think this verse might be where God created time!

From a scientific perspective,

MOST theories seem to agree time started at the big bang and is closely associated with space and motion.
here is a good definition from yahoo answers:

Time is not an illusion created by man, it is a measurement of motion between two or more moving objects existing in space. Say you had just the world and absolutely nothing else, just a stationary ball located in space. There is no time, because there is nothing to measure.
Set the ball in motion and set up a point from which to observe this motion and you have time. So time is measured by the rotation of the earth and objects in space. The unit of time, the second, is also the unit of all metric measurements including litres and kilos and grammes etc. And is derived from the motion of the earth orbitting the sun.
There is also evidence that all measurement systems use the second as the basic unit.
So the moment two or more objects in motion existed in space, time began. the end of time would be when all the stars and planets and other space debris vanished for ever. (Including the tiniest of particles)According to this definition, God created time when he created the first two moving objects in space!

Your argument is very good and well thought out, especially considering your material (scripture) was written when understanding of abstract concepts such as time was quite primitive.

I actually had to work at finding flaws (hey, if anything, my behaviour is predictable :) )

From a scriptural perspective Genesis 1:1 Says "in the BEGINNING God created the heaven and the earth" "beginning" show the start of time.

Add to this the account of creation are 6 "days" , a measure of time.

Take a look at Genesis 1:14 "And God said let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days and years."

Of course the emphasis is mine, but seasons, days and years are all measures of TIME. God here is declaring he created the celestial bodies so people could measure TIME. I think this verse might be where God created time!

Well, scripture says god created items, but does not say anything about god's creation of time.
To me, it says god was present at the beginning of time so he could create tangible stuff, like the heavens and earth etc..... but it says nothing about the creation of time itself.

Furthermore, scripture says god created a source of light and set things in motion to create day/night and the seasons. But, based on scripture, these things were functioning within a framework of moving time.... which scripture still does not acknowledge as his creation.


According to this definition, God created time when he created the first two moving objects in space!

I am quite familiar with the recent theories and explanations of time. I am sincerely delighted to see you embrace them as well. :thumbsup:
But, how is it that you are so selective in your application of physics and scientific theory?
When it can be used to support a theological discourse, you embrace it. When it is offered as a rational, supportable alternative to theology, you simply dismiss it as being false? :)

Your argument is very good and well thought out, especially considering your material (scripture) was written when understanding of abstract concepts such as time was quite primitive.

I actually had to work at finding flaws (hey, if anything, my behaviour is predictable :) )



Well, scripture says god created items Thanks!
I think you just misspelled the word "TIMES" :lol2:, but does not say anything about god's creation of time.
To me, it says god was present at the beginning of time so he could create tangible stuff, like the heavens and earth etc..... but it says nothing about the creation of time itself.Combine these scriptures with the scientific definition of time I posted, and you have God creating time, when he caused the celestial bodies to move.

Furthermore, scripture says god created a source of light and set things in motion to create day/night and the seasons. But, based on scripture, these things were functioning within a framework of moving time.... which scripture still does not acknowledge as his creation. Could it possibly be that when God created the earth, he also made it spin on it's axis, BEFORE the sun moon and stars were created, thus creating time? ( The point of measurement would be Gods throne from the third heaven.)



I am quite familiar with the recent theories and explanations of time. I am sincerely delighted to see you embrace them as well. :thumbsup:
But, how is it that you are so selective in your application of physics and scientific theory?
When it can be used to support a theological discourse, you embrace it. When it is offered as a rational, supportable alternative to theology, you simply dismiss it as being false? :)First, I'm not so sure I "embrace" it, but accept it as a possibility (especially for the sake of argument).
Second, where do you find me dismissing a scientific theory as false?

Why would they be? Hitler was a Christian...

Hitler was NOT a Christian,
he may have contemplated being a Catholic priest, but that doesn't mean he called upon God the Father in faith and repentance of sin, accepting the sacrifice of Christ for his sin and asking Christ into his heart. :rolleyes:

Hitler was NOT a Christian,
he may have contemplated being a Catholic priest, but that doesn't mean he called upon God the Father in faith and repentance of sin, accepting the sacrifice of Christ for his sin and asking Christ into his heart. :rolleyes:
I know that you as Christian (like many others) don't want to admit it, but it is well known and well documented that he was a Christian. He acted on his Christian faith, and didn't really do anything any worse than the atrocities that Christians have been doing regularly for the last couple millennium.


Here is one source (http://atheism.about.com/od/adolfhitlernazigermany/tp/AdolfHitlerQuotesGodReligion.htm) that gives a pretty decent summary, but there are a lot more.


It's popular among Christian apologists to claim that Hitler, the Nazis, and the Holocaust are all consequences of atheism, secularism, and liberalism. Such arguments fly in the face of reality: Adolf Hitler regularly proclaimed his faith in God, Nazi ideology was committed to supporting Christianity (on its terms, of course), and Nazi anti-Semitism was firmly grounded in Christian anti-Semitism. Hitler's theism, religiosity, and Christianity are strongly supported in his own words.
1. Adolf Hitler on God: Quotes from Adolf Hitler Expressing Belief & Faith in God (http://atheism.about.com/od/adolfhitlernazigermany/tp/AdolfHitlerFaithGod.htm)

If Adolf Hitler was an atheist, why did he keep saying that he believed in God, had faith in God, and was convinced that he was doing God's work? Adolf Hitler was not just certain that his attacks on Jews were divinely mandated, but also his efforts to clamp down on society by restoring traditional morality. Christian apologists only seem to claim that Hitler was an atheist because they cannot handle the idea that a Christian theist would cause so much evil in the name of their God. Hitler Quotes About God (http://atheism.about.com/od/adolfhitlernazigermany/tp/AdolfHitlerFaithGod.htm)


2. Adolf Hitler on Faith: Quotes from Adolf Hitler on the Need for Religious Faith (http://atheism.about.com/od/adolfhitlernazigermany/tp/AdolfHitlerReligiousFaith.htm)

If Adolf Hitler's political and social policies were a product of atheism and secularism, why did he consistently say that religious faith was necessary for morality? Why did Hitler insist that faith is one of the most important things in life? Adolf Hitler's own words make it clear that he was convinced of the importance and necessity of religious faith - not at all unlike the conviction of conservative Christians today. Hitler Quotes About Faith (http://atheism.about.com/od/adolfhitlernazigermany/tp/AdolfHitlerReligiousFaith.htm)

3. Adolf Hitler on Tradition: Hitler Quotes on Needing Traditional Moral Values (http://atheism.about.com/od/adolfhitlernazigermany/tp/AdolfHitlerChristianValues.htm)

Adolf Hitler is often used as an example of what happens to a society when traditional Christian moral and social values are abandoned. In reality, one of the reasons why Hitler was so popular with conservative Christians in Germany was precisely because he promised to restore traditional morality. He opposed abortion, homosexuality, pornography, and just about everything else conservative Christians complained were ruining modern Germany. Hitler Quotes About Morality (http://atheism.about.com/od/adolfhitlernazigermany/tp/AdolfHitlerChristianValues.htm)

4. Adolf Hitler on Christianity: Quotes from Hitler Expressing Christian Faith (http://atheism.about.com/od/adolfhitlernazigermany/tp/AdolfHitlerChristian.htm)

Despite how often Christian apologists try to argue that Adolf Hitler is an example of the evil caused by atheism and secularism, the truth is that Hitler often proclaimed his own Christianity, how much he valued Christianity, how important Christianity was to his life, and even how much he was personally inspired by Jesus - his "Lord and Savior." There is plenty of evidence that he was critical of Christian churches for seeking independence from the state, but his vision of "Positive Christianity" was significant to him. Hitler Quotes on Christianity (http://atheism.about.com/od/adolfhitlernazigermany/tp/AdolfHitlerChristian.htm)

5. Adolf Hitler on Religion: Quotes from Hitler on the Importance of Religion (http://atheism.about.com/od/adolfhitlernazigermany/tp/AdolfHitlerReligionReligious.htm)

Christian apologists try to portray Adolf Hitler and the Nazi Party as being secular and anti-religious, but in reality Hitler regularly proclaimed the importance of religion in society. He opposed religious institutions that presumed to be rivals to the Nazi state for people's loyalty, but that's not the same as being opposed to religion itself. Like so many political leaders, he approved of religion - but wanted religion to know its place and not challenge him much. Hitler Quotes About Religion (http://atheism.about.com/od/adolfhitlernazigermany/tp/AdolfHitlerReligionReligious.htm)

6. Hitler on Secularism, Atheism: Quotes from Hitler Opposing Secularism & Atheism (http://atheism.about.com/od/adolfhitlernazigermany/tp/HitlerNazisAtheismSecularism.htm)

Claims from Christian apologists about Adolf Hitler being an example of the evils committed by secularism and atheism are effectively refuted by Hitler's own words condemning secularism and atheism. Adolf Hitler did nothing to promote or encourage Germany's godless, atheists, and freethinkers but he spoke and acted regularly to promote and defend traditional Christian beliefs, values, and political policies. Hitler Quotes About Atheism (http://atheism.about.com/od/adolfhitlernazigermany/tp/HitlerNazisAtheismSecularism.htm)

7. Christians on Hitler & Nazis: Quotes from Christians Supporting Hitler (http://atheism.about.com/od/adolfhitlernazigermany/tp/NaziChristiansGermany.htm)

American Christians seem to be completely unaware of the degree to which Christians in Germany threw their support behind Adolf Hitler and the Nazi Party. If they did, they might be less likely to pretend that the crimes of Hitler and the Nazis can be traced to atheism or secularism. They might also be less likely to do so much to transform their own Christianity into an American echo of Germany's extreme nationalistic Christianity. Christian Support for Hitler (http://atheism.about.com/od/adolfhitlernazigermany/tp/NaziChristiansGermany.htm)

8. Adolf Hitler on the Church: Quotes from Hitler on Learning from Christianity (http://atheism.about.com/od/adolfhitlernazigermany/tp/AdolfHitlerChristianModel.htm)

Contrary to claims made by Christian apologists seeking ways to attack atheism, Adolf Hitler was not only a Christian but he in fact made it clear that he learned from the early history of Christianity as well as more recent Christian political movements. He certainly didn't copy everything from Christian churches and organizations, but Christianity was a role model in some fundamental ways. Adolf Hitler apparently believed hat he and the Nazi Party could learn a lot from Christianity. Hitler Quotes on the Church (http://atheism.about.com/od/adolfhitlernazigermany/tp/AdolfHitlerChristianModel.htm)

I know that you as Christian (like many others) don't want to admit it, but it is well known and well documented that he was a Christian. He acted on his Christian faith, and didn't really do anything any worse than the atrocities that Christians have been doing regularly for the last couple millennium.


Here is one source (http://atheism.about.com/od/adolfhitlernazigermany/tp/AdolfHitlerQuotesGodReligion.htm) that gives a pretty decent summary, but there are a lot more.

Blazee, tell me what the definition of a Christian is.

You have so hardened your heart to the truth of God, his word and Christianity, that you don't know what a genuine Christian is.

Show me any one of those quotes of Hitlers that "proves" he was a Christian.
You Can't because he was never a Christian ( that doesn't mean he was Atheist) but he NEVER had the love of Christ in his heart.

The biggest proof of this is that, instead of trying to convert Gods people to Christianity, through whom he chose to send the Savior, and his word, he rather kills and exterminates as many of them as he can.

No person who hates the same race of people that Jesus Christ came from, so much that they kill them, has the faith and love a real Christian has in Christ.

Wow, I love the debates of this thread... I donno how I've missed it all this time... Interestingly enough, I've been doing a lot of reading and research on this subject in the last few years...

First off, I am glad MR and CL8 have discussed this matter without resorting to personal insults. All too often I see these types of threads get to the point where everyone gets mad because they "can't win the argument" and they resort to the most natural human instinct, insults... Anyways...

I have to say that I am right in the middle of the two sides. I was raised in a christian home and went to church every Sunday for most of my life... Then as I got older I began questioning all the things that had been "hammered into my mind" my whole life. You wanna see some pissed off people, try questioning the church on things that your not supposed to question. That really kills me. Curiosity is natural and we all yearn for answers to our questions. You really think God is gonna make it that easy though? If he put proof right out there that he existed then where would that put all of us and the non-believers? The world would simply exist without a purpose... I'll loop back around to this later on here...

As my questions grew and I doubted things, I left the church and was then at an age where I was free to make my own decisions and live my life however I saw fit. I went out into the world and led a very immoral lifestyle and thought it was all just grand and dandy. I'll admit it. I had pretty much given up on God with my life and did my own thing. Fortunately He never gave up on me...

I went through a lot of hard times and had to learn the hard way in life thus far. After living like that I began to question a lifestyle without moral principles and that there had to be more of a purpose in life than to just merely exist. Rather than going back to the church, I began researching things online. I found a lot of answers but for every answer there was a contradiction by somebody else. I continued searching with the same results everywhere...

What I began to realize was that we all have our beliefs and that we all are not going to believe in God... There will always be somebody trying to prove that God doesn't exist and I'm ok with that. Know why? Because there always has been and always will be opposition to God. Look at the devil for instance. He was an angel in heaven until he "opposed God." Angels know good and evil just as God does. (more on this in the next two paragraphs) We can try to teach them and preach to them about it until we're blue in the face but they will still deny it. Because that is what they believe and that's where their hearts stand... Only if they truly find it in their hearts will they believe in God.

I've slowly gotten back into the church but a different one. Now I'm in one where it's alright to ask questions and they actually attempt to answer them to the best of their knowledge of the bible. I still have a lot to learn about it and am not saying I know more than the next person by any means. I'm just stating what I believe in now. And what I believe in is God based on the experiences in my life and the way I have looked at all the "theories" out there.

At the beginning of my post I talked about purpose... I believe our purpose is to do exactly as I have been doing. Learning and growing... Adam and Eve ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. We then learned from that the difference between good and evil and we had a choice from that moment forward. We are to learn about these two things in our lives. As MR said at one point, he has good friends who are christians and those who are not and they all seem to have the same morals and standards in life. This is because of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. They have chosen to do good and not evil in their lives. Now we all know that sometimes we fall prey to evil and do wrong. We've all done it and we'll all do it again. (some sooner than others) But we should be learning from these experiences and applying them to our daily lives to be more "God-like." Our goal, our purpose, in this life is to be like God so that we can be closer to Him. Remember the personal relationship CL8 was talking about? He wants that relationship with us just as much as we want it with Him. We gotta have faith in Him so that our relationship will BE the closest and most personal one ever. If we didn't have faith then it would just be an eh whatever kind of relationship. Hence why there isn't physical proof out there for all to see...

I'm sure my post was pretty chaotic and not very well organized. I apologize for that. I've never actually posted in this type of discussion before. If I need to retype something to clarify then just let me know. I usually just read and watch people hash it out but decided to stand up for once and give my input. lol

Interesting testimony Blackcrow64!
I'm curious what church denomination you were brought up in.

Interesting testimony Blackcrow64!
I'm curious what church denomination you were brought up in.

My church was part of the restoration movement. I don't really understand the difference between so many of the denominations out there now that are so similar. There are several that seem the same but with slightly different beliefs. (That or somebody gets mad about one dumb little thing and decides to change it and make their own church that is practically the same as the one they left.)

The church I'm going to now is also part of the restoration movement but I think they have a better understanding of it as a whole... I've learned so much more in the last 3 months than I did in all my years at the other church.

hmm, this is the first I have heard of the "Restoration" movement.

From my research it includes The Church of Christ and Disciples of Christ churches.
The most important part of finding a good church is how closely do they adhere to correct, sound Bible teaching and doctrine.
This is why it is important for every Christian to regularly read the bible and know the basic doctrines of the bible.

Of course the most basic doctrine the bible teaches is that salvation is by Faith alone in Jesus Christ for salvation,
no works of our own, not even going to church or baptism can save a soul
(otherwise the thief on the cross couldn't have been saved). Only the shed blood of Christ can cleanse a soul from sin.

Is this what your church teaches?
I read on one site some of the restoration churches teach you must be baptized for salvation.
This goes completely against scriptural teaching of salvation.

sincerely, in Christ,
CL8

Blackrow, thanks for sharing, I enjoyed reading your post and experience. I find similarities in my own journey, and hope to keep learning and growing.

Everybody has their own beliefs, what's the matter with that?, but God see everything!

hmm, this is the first I have heard of the "Restoration" movement.

From my research it includes The Church of Christ and Disciples of Christ churches.
The most important part of finding a good church is how closely do they adhere to correct, sound Bible teaching and doctrine.
This is why it is important for every Christian to regularly read the bible and know the basic doctrines of the bible.

Of course the most basic doctrine the bible teaches is that salvation is by Faith alone in Jesus Christ for salvation,
no works of our own, not even going to church or baptism can save a soul
(otherwise the thief on the cross couldn't have been saved). Only the shed blood of Christ can cleanse a soul from sin.

Is this what your church teaches?
I read on one site some of the restoration churches teach you must be baptized for salvation.
This goes completely against scriptural teaching of salvation.

sincerely, in Christ,
CL8

They do teach that baptism is a necessary step. However, I agree with you that going to church and baptism alone does not save ones soul. They must have faith that Jesus Christ came and died for their sins and rose from the dead and conquered death. Throughout Mark, Luke, and John they teach about baptism and how John baptized Jesus and God was pleased with it. It's my understanding that it is an outward showing that you have true faith in God and have chosen to take on the Holy Spirit through the act of being baptized and live a life that is pleasing to God. Although I'm not saying being baptized automatically gives you the Holy Spirit. Instead it is something which we must discover on our own through God and that we receive it without the baptism. The baptism is just a step in showing the world that your all for God and that your gonna follow the biblical teachings to the best of your abilities. Doesn't mean your gonna be perfect from that moment forward or anything like that. It simple means that you strive to be more "God-like" than you were prior to your baptism. Like I said, I believe that baptism is not necessary if your heart is right with God and you have proclaimed that He is the Lord and Savior. It's just an outward showing that is pleasing to God. It's your way of standing up in public and proclaiming that He is the Lord of your life... Again though, this is just my understandings/interpretations of all I have read in the bible.

Everybody has their own beliefs, what's the matter with that?, but God see everything!

Nothing wrong with that at all. Like I said, not everybody will believe in God and nothing will change their mind. The only one that can change that is them. God will use us to plant the seed in them but the seed will not grow if the ground in which it is planted is not accepting to it. This is why as christians, we go and teach the best we can and help spread the word of God so that these peoples "ground" will be accepting to the seed. After that, it is up to us as a christian community to help that person water and nourish the seed so that it may grow in them. But like I said, that will not change a persons beliefs if they are unaccepting to the seed which God uses us to plant in them...

Also, just a side note to any of the Christians and non-Christians in this thread. I've created a user group for AF Christians. All are welcome to join the group if they desire to learn more about God. You can find the group in my user profile. :)