Is not being able to come here more often - only getting the chance when things don't quite work right. If I ever get my promotion to faculty, I'll actually have MORE time to post/lurk. :)

Anyway, got a couple questions/problems with Napoleon the Metro (my '91 G10-based runabout) and I'm hoping for a little help to make sure I covered all my bases...

First: Annoying switch/relay type problem. I sometimes have to slowly pump the clutch to get the engine to crank. It cranks fine once it connects. Some days it's the very first try - clutch in, engine goes, everybody's happy. Some days it takes 6 or 7 tries. I can hear the click of a switch engaging and the lights dim, but nothing else happens. Is it the clutch switch not engaging, or maybe the starter solenoid wearing out? Or am I forgetting something?

Second: Fuel system problem. Right now, I can depress the gas pedal about half an inch to an inch to give the car gas. It idles ok most of the time, but will periodically idle rough and threaten to stall briefly. I can cruise at 70-75 mph once I'm there, but right now I have to accelerate like a big rig. If I don't, or if I depress the gas pedal farther and try and push the throttle harder, I wind up losing power and usually will be stuck on 2 cylinders until I let up on the gas. Then I can feel the power come back, and stay on as long as I don't lug the engine or try and open it up again.
After reading DOC's megathread about The Phoenix, I already checked the TPS (on my car, it just seems to be more of an on/off switch than anything) and it checked out. I replaced the Fuel Pressure Regulator, and have the same problem. I'm about to replace the Fuel Pump itself. Problem is, I have no way to check the fuel pressure right now. I pulled the fuel return line, and get a decent flow, but I haven't measured the exact flow rate.

So after running through a bunch of threads, I can only see it's one of two things: The pump, or a vacuum issue. I have checked the vac tubes and they all seem ok.

The exact history of the problem is this: Everything was fine up until Mem Day weekend. I took the car up to Big Bear, elevation 6500-7000 feet. I was good until I hit the mountain roads. Then I had large chunks of climbing in 3rd gear, sometimes 4th. Everything seemed fine, but when I got to the top the erratic power loss started. I thought maybe I had a problem with not enough oxygen because of the elevation and that it would be a temporary issue (not that I could have done much about it up there anyway). But it's persisted.

So my questions for problem #2 - is this really a potential fuel pump issue? No one ever seemed to decide whether the pump can kind of "run down" a bit erratically, or whether it just stops working completely if it breaks down. Is this a vacuum problem? If so, where would I expect to find the potential problem?

And if it's not a fuel pump or vac problem, what else could it be? I replaced the fuel filter last year, btw, but I do put almost 50K miles on the car in a year.

Any and all ideas :2cents: would be great, before I go down to the parts lots and start yanking bits and pieces. :naughty:

Muchas gracias!

BTW, MechMatt, thanks again for the recommendations on the engine rebuilding. Sucker's been running great ever since, and I'm still consistently getting the 42 mpg I need to keep from going broke these days. :biggrin:

If you read my Gawd Awful long threads here, you may have seen that I bypassed
the Fuel Filter with Fuel Line back under the car, cut the fuel line coming out of
the firewall and placed the Fuel Filter up in the Engine Compartment.

If has been working just fine for almost two years now.

Right there where I can get at it when I choose w/o laying on my back while
swearing new cuss words trying to change it.

If you get good fuel flow, I doubt you have a Fuel Pump problem.


Go to the Local "Pull-n-Save" and get a used Clutch Switch....!

Or look at the Parts places in the first Link on this Forum for someone who
sells used stuff.

OR....here is the link to Schuck's New Part for $31 to $47...
http://www.partsamerica.com/ProductList.aspx?PartType=631&PTSet=A

OR - take yours apart and fix it....

DoctorBill

Direct Link to a NEW Ignition/Clutch Neutral safety switch. At $30.00, dont bother with one from the junkyard, you end up with the same problem you have now (Or in the near future) with a used switch...........Just my :2cents: .

Niehoff Ignition/Clutch Neutral Safety Switch - 91 Geo Metro - Part Number: NS39791 (http://www.partsamerica.com/ProductDetail.aspx?MfrCode=NIE&MfrPartNumber=NS39791&PartType=631&PTSet=A)

Next time it does that, leave the clutch pedal down and try turning the key off and on until it starts. I think that will work just as well, eliminating the clutch safety switch as the cause. I think your problem is the solenoid. The fact that you hear the solenoid click and the lights dim tell me that your ignition switch, clutch switch, and low power wiring are fine. I had a similar thing, cranked very slow sometimes, perfectly fine other times. Redid all the big wires with no difference. Solenoid cost about two thirds what a starter with solenoid costs, so I just replaced the whole thing, but it was definitely either the starter or the solenoid.

Your second problem sounds electrical to me, a fuel delivery problem is going to be worst at high speeds and wide open throttle conditions. Could be throttle position sensor or a bad ground causing bad sensor input.

First: Annoying switch/relay type problem. I sometimes have to slowly pump the clutch to get the engine to crank. It cranks fine once it connects. Some days it's the very first try - clutch in, engine goes, everybody's happy. Some days it takes 6 or 7 tries. I can hear the click of a switch engaging and the lights dim, but nothing else happens. Is it the clutch switch not engaging, or maybe the starter solenoid wearing out? Or am I forgetting something?

Zed, after "Taking the Time" to read your whole post......I have to agree with Woodie here, Your starter solenoid is getting ready die, which usually means your going to have to replace the whole starter motor assembly on the car, unless your can find a new solenoid for a manual Geo Metro starter (I Couldn't, Just complete Starter assemblys). My 94 Geo had the "exact same symptoms as your experiencing now with your car for a few weeks, then 1 day the starter wouldn't work at all after 20+ attempts to start the car at a gas station. It finally hit after the car cooled down, got it to the house and replaced the starter with a reman from Advanced auto parts.......Done! Never had the problem again.

Your other issue: I would find a way to get your fuel pressure checked. If the car had sat a long time before doing the repairs, and rust was allowed to build up in the fuel tank (The fuel tank wasn't drained or No Fuel Stabilizer added to the fuel to keep moisture out of it), the fuel pump filter sock (In the tank on the fuel pump) may be semi clogged and the tank/filter sock need to be cleaned. In this senario, i'd buy a new fuel pump kit and install it since it requires you to drop the tank to clean it, and the pump assy is in the tank......But 1st get the fuel pressure checked before buying a new pump assy and dropping the fuel tank. If you have to do this.......I'm here to here to help! I've dropped 3 metro tanks so far.....Their not to bad.

Back in my hideously long Threads about rebuilding my '93 Metro, I dropped the
Fuel Tank to replace my Fuel Pump (Probably didn't actually need to).

Dropping the Fuel Tank is not all that hard to do.

The Fuel Pump is costly - around $180 from Schucks - but take the old one in
to compare as they sold me the wrong one and I had to reorder the correct one.

My old Fuel Pump had pretty badly scored Brushes when I took it apart to examine it.

Man does the Fuel Pump push fuel thru it FAST !

If you go to this Thread, about here (about Oct 10, 2006)
http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=613410&page=18
you can see what the tank and pump look like.
It is long and wordie.....but it has pictures.

If you do this thing, now is a good time to put the Fuel Filter in the Engine compartment.

DoctorBill

No problem, Zed. Yo is a really good guy, and I knew he'd take care of you. He's done several upon several engines for me and when I get the pieces back, all the measurements have always been dead nuts.

You must get a fuel pressure check done. Record readings for KOEO, idle and rev.

-MechanicMatt

first time on this, like to see if somebody can help me. i'm looking for the torgue converter relay switch somebody told me it was on top of the trans.my van is jerking real bad. and somebody told me it was the egr valve can someone help me please thx

please help looking for the torgue converter relay switch i think its going out is it easy to get to and change my van is jerking real bad

I think you've stumbled into the wrong gang's hangout man, better move along before we drag you behind our .... nevermind, don't have that kind of power. :-)

We're talking about Geo/Chevy Metro, an itty bitty car made by Suzuki that doesn't have any such fancy thing as a torque converter switch.

Hmmm....Geo Metro Van conversion....there's an interesting thought, though I have no idea how you'd do it. Cut off the back from the hatch rearward, slice apart a 4-door Geo between the door pairs, weld the halves together and add a 3rd rear seat in the former trunk?
Of course, you'd probably have to make sure it had the 1.3L turbo just to get the "van" to move - or a nice, long hill. :)

Anyway, thanks for the help everyone. I'll hunt down a solenoid/starter and some pressure-testing equipment. Would measuring fuel flow through the return line help? If it does turn out to be the pump, I've already read through DOC's posts about The Phoenix (I can't remember how many times, though more for the engine/ring job the first dozen or so times ;) ), so I'm ready for my gaso-bath! Hey DOC, you should do a brake job in that thread, and then publish that thread as a Tech Manual! Then I can fix my leaky wheel cylinders. ;) j/k, I'm already on that one myself. (my poor overworked Geo!)

I had my rear brakes done in a shop many, many moons ago.

For some reason I don't understand, I have always hated to do drum brakes.

I can do front disk brakes on anything, almost, and I am fine. Weird....

But YOU could take some photos.....just take about 5x too many and that will
be enough - you'll have many to pick from, add arrows and explanations, and
be rich and (in)famous by posting them here on this forum....

Are you going to put the fuel filter up front?

If not - you will be cursing next time it needs changing.

DoctorBill

Heh - If this wasn't my daily driver, I definitely would take the time to show off my "expertise" (or lack thereof) and post all kinds of stuff. As it is, I'll have to rely on my wife's good graces to take the pics for me while I work, since I'll only have a weekend to replace both cylinders, or the fuel pump if it turns out that's the problem right now.

And I'm definitely moving the fuel filter. It'll either be up front similarly to yours in The Phoenix, or I'll at least extend the line from the tank and rig up something easier to reach on the undercarriage. Kind of depends on what I have the time and money to get my hands on (fuel hose, joints, etc.), but yeah, I swapped it once and decided, like flying through LAX, it was not something I ever wanted to do again. Of course, I've bled for my car just about every repair so far, but that was an especially bloody and dirty affair. :rofl:

I had my rear brakes done in a shop many, many moons ago.

For some reason I don't understand, I have always hated to do drum brakes.

I can do front disk brakes on anything, almost, and I am fine. Weird....

But YOU could take some photos.....just take about 5x too many and that will
be enough - you'll have many to pick from, add arrows and explanations, and
be rich and (in)famous by posting them here on this forum....

Are you going to put the fuel filter up front?

If not - you will be cursing next time it needs changing.

DoctorBill

Awright, here we go again :)

After much messing about with my car, I'm still having the same problem - it accelerates like a truck and I'm losing power from someplace. I can cruise at 70 or so on flat terrain, and do fine on downhills. But as soon as there's an uphill grade, fuggedaboudit :tongue:. I can sometimes drop down to 4th and make it up the hill, but longer or steeper grades I have to downshift to 3rd and grind along at about 40 or so mph. All this happened after climbing up a mountain on the way to Big Bear resort.

So here's what I've done so far - because now I need :1zhelp: or I'm going to go :screwy:

1. Swapped out fuel pump
2. Swapped out fuel pressure regulator
3. Checked rubber hoses for obstructions
4. Swapped out fuel injector
5. Took fuel filter offline, then moved it to the front (just like DOC)
6. Respliced wire harness, checked electrical connectivity
7. Checked TP switch
8. Checked and replaced MAP sensor and its filter
9. Bypassed Fuel Pump Relay, no difference, reinstalled relay

OK, so the current state of the Metro is this: Still having the same problem up above. For a few days, I couldn't even get the poor thing to do more than crank. It just felt like it wasn't getting enough fuel. I discovered a tear in the gasket of the pressure regulator, so i replaced it. It still wouldn't start, just crank. I kept the regulator off and turned the key to ON, and verified that gas was squirting from the feed line through the regulator port, and the fuel injector was soaked in it when I checked that. After reviewing DOCTORBILL's troubles with The Phoenix, I swapped out the MAP sensor. In doing so I found a very tiny crack in the tube connecting the throttle body to the MAP air filter, but it was enough to hear air moving through it when I blew through the tube with the end blocked off, so I replaced it.

At that point, the car finally started and ran - but something's still not right. I have the fuel pressure regulator shimmed to the point of nearly closing off the return port, and it's still feeling like there's not enough fuel pressure since I have no power (look back up at the top). On the other hand, there might be enough, because every now and then I smell gas, a sign of excess pressure. And while I can get normal (but slow) acceleration by light pressure on the throttle/gas pedal, any more pressure or even opening the throttle up, I lose power even though it sounds like the engine's working really hard. Increasing the throttle doesn't seem to change things once I'm about 20% down on the pedal. Basically, it's the same problem I started with despite all the stuff I've done.

So I'm stuck now. I need other ideas that would cause this problem. Is it possible to blow the head gasket without affecting the fluids? I have no oil in my antifreeze or vice versa, and I don't seem to be burning oil or coolant.

The problem seems to be worse after driving for a while - the idle is stable and normal while the car's cool, but once it's been driving for a while it idles rough.

I think :confused: I hear a hissing or airy sound in/near the throttle body, but I've been messing with the area enough that I'm used to hearing the normal aspiration sound when you have the air filter removed, so I'm not sure if I'm just noticing that now, or if it's a real symptom.

I can stall the car by depressing the EGR valve diaphragm myself when idling, and I pulled the silencer tube from the air filter holder and could feel vacuum when the car was running. I even replaced the VSV and modulator.

I get no CEL warnings usually - I did get an O2 sensor warning a couple times yesterday if I held the throttle down, and this would go away as soon as I let up on the throttle. I've gotten EGR warnings in the past, but that seems to be a sensor issue b/c the EGR has worked fine when I've tested it. I have and still get "Ignition Signal" warnings intermittently.

The Distro cap and rotor, and ignition coil are all newly replaced. The plugs are good, I'm definitely getting spark to all 3 cylinders. Timing's factory spec.

So what's left that could cause this:
Vacuum leak? Any idea WHERE the leak would be?
Plugged Cat causing too much backpressure?

Those are the only things I can think of on my own. Any other ideas? Any way to check for restrictions in the long metal connecting tubes of the fuel lines? Should I do a compression test on the cylinders themselves to check the head gasket anyway?

I think I've thrown in all the info I can remember, even stuff that may or may not be relevant. Any help or ideas about what I'm missing would be a plus, even if it means pulling the entire throttle body off. :iceslolan

Oh yeah, and if I get the car running normally again, I WILL post the drum brake cylinder replacement I do next. :)


EDIT: One last thing I noticed at lunch today - the A/C will run the car down to a stall when I'm idling if I leave the compressor on, and adjusting the vacuum using the spring-screw valve on the firewall to boost the idle speed when the A/C is on doesn't actually seem to do anything.

I would take a can of WD-40 and spray it in various locations on your intake manifold. The hissing sound is most likely a bad hose and may be your problem. When you find the problem spot, your idle will change, when you spray on it. I hope this helps

I too say use the wd40 to find you vacuum leak when warm. Also make sure your fuel return line is free from obstruction. I remember another member had issues with this. The return line was plugged. He use an air compressor to gently blow air back to the tank, and it blew the obstruction out. It salved his problems!

Thanks guys, I'll give it a shot. I'm always cooking off a little oil from my stupid leaky oil pan :banghead: anyway, so a little extra WD won't even be noticed - except hopefully by my idle, so I can fix this little problem once and for all!

I guess I shouldn't be surprised if it is another hose - it's been like the movie The Andromeda Strain the last month or so. Something has just flat out eaten all my hoses all of a sudden - I've had one vac leak, and 3 separate splits at the clamps of my coolant hoses. Weirdness, I tell ya. :lol2:

How old are the hoses? Nothing lives forever....

If they are older than dirt, they usually all go to pot at once - typical.

If that has been happening, it would be a very good idea to replace ALL of your
rubber hoses at the same time.

Why wait for them to spring a leak ? Do you like problems at the worst possible time ?

Go buy several feet of each diameter and find each and every hose and replace it.!

You will sleep better for it.

Probably everything made of rubber is crapped out....

DoctorBill

How old are the hoses? Nothing lives forever....

If they are older than dirt, they usually all go to pot at once - typical.

If that has been happening, it would be a very good idea to replace ALL of your
rubber hoses at the same time.

Why wait for them to spring a leak ? Do you like problems at the worst possible time ?

Go buy several feet of each diameter and find each and every hose and replace it.!

You will sleep better for it.

Probably everything made of rubber is crapped out....

DoctorBill

Heh - that's exactly what I've been doing :grinyes:. As far as I can tell, the hoses are original equipment. So the last few times I was at Ecology (the local pick-a-part place) I checked out the newer vehicles and any of the other cars with replacement hoses, and yanked a wide assortment of hoses and clamps to replace mine.

Of course, I don't honestly know if that's exactly the problem. It SOUNDS like a vac leak to me, and no one's suggested anything different besides the fuel pump/regulator, which I've replaced. So right now, I'm going on the basis of vac leak and replacing hoses, checking the throttle body, etc.

But if anyone knows of any other issue that could cause the problems I'm having, I'm all ears. I want my little buddy back, dammit! :lol:

So here's a new question. My rear brake wheel cylinders are both leaking and need to be replaced. I've got a couple used ones that are in good shape.

But my question is this - could this be the source of the vacuum leak that seems to be the cause of my engine problems?

I know the power brake booster uses vacuum to boost the braking, and I know my braking is not where it should be - I have to be careful to monitor my brake fluid level or I can press the brake pedal to the floor. :P But can the leak at the wheel cylinders and loss of brake fluid also let air into the system and allow vacuum to leak through there? Or is the power booster vacuum sealed off from the rest of the booster/brake fluid hydraulic system?

Why not be a scientist and do the EXPERIMENT - plug up the hoses at
the rear brakes with some rod or bolt, and try driving the car when/where there
is no traffic to see if it drives better? Just be careful.

Better yet - fix the brake cylinders ASAP.

If there is a vacuum leak anywhere, the vacuum comes from the intake manifold
and thus any leak will screw up that vacuum.

DoctorBill

Why not be a scientist and do the EXPERIMENT - plug up the hoses at
the rear brakes with some rod or bolt, and try driving the car when/where there
is no traffic to see if it drives better? Just be careful.

Better yet - fix the brake cylinders ASAP.

If there is a vacuum leak anywhere, the vacuum comes from the intake manifold
and thus any leak will screw up that vacuum.

DoctorBill
:grinyes: Matter of fact, I actually am a scientist - except my vehicles are flesh and bone at work. I do neurobiological research and play mechanic/technician in my spare time (no offense Matt, you know I'm an amateur!). So I was thinking about that too - a little wary of cutting off half my brakes, but last night I thought about it some more and I probably have already driven it without those brakes working anyway.
:eek2:

So I spent yesterday tracing the power brake booster vac lines. If I have time today - I have to get a grant finished and the deadline's getting a little close for comfort - I plan on doing the experiment you suggested, DOC. I'll post the results as long as they don't involve running into a tree! :smokin::loser:

No, your brake fluid leak will not cause a vacuum leak, they're completely separated systems. You could have a vacuum leak inside the brake booster though. I'd get the brakes 100% fixed before worrying about the engine driveability, wouldn't drive a car with known leaky brakes any farther than the closest shop, and that only with one hand on the emergency brake.