Squeezing Power

Ok guys, so I'm pretty excited about my dyno results, so now it's time to squeeze every bit of power out of that car. So, I'm looking for more ways, (besides turbo and spray) to get the most.

-When I did my head, the timing on the exhaust side was off by 1 tooth, and adjusted that with the adjustable cam gears. So sadly, I can't really play with that too much. So when it gets a little warmer, I'm going to reset my timing and get that right (hopefully). So then once I'm good there, I can play with the timing some. Have to do some research on that, but should be good.

-WBO2. I'm ordering this week and getting that up and running. Will be able to work out all the kinks with the SAFC then, and will get my low-throttle tuning done then too. Also will get my EGT welded in the next couple weeks.

-I'm thinking maybe some kind of MSD ignition module. Should be able to increase spark with something like that right? I don't need the ones that have the rev-limiter and all the other toys... just spark enhancements. I have to do some research on that.

Any other ideas on what to do? If you look at my dyno sheets in the South Meet thread I made, you can see that I don't have too much power being gained from ~3k-4k rpm. 2500-3000 is a nice gain, but it levels off almost flat line. I'm figuring that may have something to do with the cams. But they're rated from 2000-7200+ so I don't know.

EDIT: Image added to show.
http://a232.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/26/l_1b3c90df60f53d755331d90bf0b1f397.jpg

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Eclipse-95-99-MSD-DIS-2-w-Tach-Adapter-420a-4g63_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ133192QQihZ014QQit emZ330223506341QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW

I was just looking at that right before I posted. It says designed for 4cyl with 2 coil packs... true?

Honestly Dave, I dont think you've got all that far to go once you rev it out. I guess I dont know what your bottom end can handle, but that head should be able to take anything and that power curve doesnt look like its flattening out at all... I think I'd be pretty suprised if you didnt get another 8-10 just for reving her out another 1500-2000 rpms. That DIS-2 box should help as well, after that I dont think you have hardly shit left for bolt ons. Maybe a lightweight flywheel? It wont actually give you any power, but it will free some up from drivetrain loss. Between that, the DIS box, and revving it out farther, I'd give you a fighting shot at 160 whp.

EDIT: I'd like to comment on your flat ass torque curve too, thats pretty gnarly.

Between tuning and reving the car out more you should be able to hit 160whp no problem. But if you want more power, I would run a little bit hotter plug, lean the car out some more. But watch the datalogger and see if the timing curve dips any. This will indicate knock. And if you get the ignition box you could advance the timing some. And also might want to play with the cam gears some. Check 2gnt for some basic settings. That ignition box will work fine with the tech adapter. Lots of turbo guys use them to retard timing.

Edit - You would be better off not buying the msd box and sell the SAFC and buying megasquirt. It would be about the same price them, you could tune the car even better. And if you go turbo you already have engine management.

I wanted to get a flywheel when I had the tranny dropped, but money WAS an issue at the time. I know there's a big loss of power and it'd be going to the wheels then, but $$$ talks. Next time I will rev up until it the curve drops. She was still pulling pretty good at the end so next time she'll be up at 7k

Is the torque curve supposed to be flat?

The torque curve is suppose to increase, flatten off somewhat and then drop towards the end maybe. <-- I think

Ok so once I get the WB in I'm going to get the datalogger working again and do some pulls. Now, if the timing is being pulled, then it's too lean then right? So I would want AFR close to 12.5, but still close enough to right before the ECU starts pulling timing? I knew I should have brought my logger with down there.

Your tuned at about 12.9 now. I would start lean a little amount at a time and just watch everything. Go for around 13.2 and see if the motor likes that. You may want to try a slightly hotter plug also. Just mess around and see what helps.

We figured it'd adjust when I got home since I'm higher up and have cooler temps out here. But cool cool... I'll play with it once everything is set up. I'll have to check what temp plugs I have now. All I know is they're the NGK Iridiums.

No reason to run iridiums. The cheap copper NGKs work just as good. You just have to change them more often.

Torque curves generally peak early and fall off, its good if you can keep it up through the power band.

yea your torque curve is awesome. Its basically telling me the higher rpms you hit the higher horsepower you will make. Torque normally drops off at higher rpms. This seriously inhibits hp as horsepower is a cross product of torque and rpm's but yours stays high so more rpms will = higher |*edit horsepower sorry.

yea your torque curve is awesome. Its basically telling me the higher rpms you hit the higher horsepower you will make. Torque normally drops off at higher rpms. This seriously inhibits hp as horsepower is a cross product of torque and rpm's but yours stays high so more rpms will = higher rpm.

I'm sorry but I have a hard time understanding what you're saying Steve. Ya more rpms = higher rpm... :screwy:

Basically my hp will continue to go up until my torque curve starts to fall back down? Even if it's flat, hp will continue to rise?

And I just realized my power kicks ass from ~3650rpm and up according to that sheet

Torque normally drops at higher rpms. your torque stays high and even increases at higher rpms. Horsepower is a cross product of torque and revolutions per minute. Therefore if torque remains constant but rpms increase horsepower will increase. Your torque curve shows no indication of dropping off (which is typical of most cars and higher rpms) therefore an increase in rpms will render higher output. Most cars torque normally drops off as most torque is delivered at the lower part of the power band. torque and horsepower intersect at 5252rpms. Torque being higher before this point and horsepower being higher after. If it intersects at anything but this point your dyno is broken.
I hope that clears things up for you a bit.

BY my calculations
If your torque remains at 122.2 ftlbs until 7000 rpm your car will make

162.87hp

HORSEPOWER = TORQUE * RPM's / 5252

Ok that clears it up a little. How about at then end of the run though, torque does show a little drop right before I let off. However now looking at all 4 runs, that one is actually dropping less than all the previous before. I'm figuring that means that torque will still fall off, but pull-on longer than the previous runs and still build more hp.

Why does torque and hp always cross at 5252?

Because Thor fucking said so! Naw, its a pretty simple mathematical relationship... nothing a Thor and a little unit analysis cant handle. You ready for this shit? It was too hard to type, so I am just going to edit and post up when I get a scan of the sheet I do the derivation on.

EDIT:

Yay for the scanner being a POS and not working. Oh well, I'll just write it up quick. To keep things separate, equations will be italicized and the explanations will be left normal First off:

Work = force x distance

Power = work/time = (force x distance) / time

Since torque is nothing more than rotational work:

Power = torque/time = torque x (1/time)

Now we need to deal the the "time" part of that equation. We can find RPM's which is a revolution/time. Since 1 revolution is 2 times Pi we can say that:

1/time = (rev/min) x (2Pi/rev)

This works because the rev's will cancel leaving us with 1/min. Plugging that in we get:

Power = torque x (rev/min) x (2Pi/rev)

Quick unit analysis proves this. Torque is expressed in ft x lbs, the revs cancel out, and 2Pi is unitless so we are left with (ft x lbs)/min. Remember that Power = (force x distance)/time and that a pound is a unit of force so the units work out. As stated above, the units are not in horsepower.

1 horsepower = 33,000 (ft x lbs)/min

More unit analysis. To get the horsepower to be the only unit left on the right side of the equation we multiply the right side of our old power equation by 1hp/(33,000 ((ft x lbs)/min). This gives us:

Power = (torque x (rev/min) x (2Pi/rev)) X (1 hp / (33,000 ft x lbs/min))

Now that our units work out, for simplicity we can let the unimportant ones go. We are left with:

Power = (torque x (rev/min) x 2Pi) / 33,000

Which can be rewritten as:

Power = torque x (rev/min) x (2Pi/33,000)

Now we're almost done.

(2Pi/33,000) = .0001903996 = (1 / 5252.11)

Plugging that in we are left with:

Power = torque x (rev/min) x (1/5252.11)

Which can be rewritten as:

Power = (torque x RPM) / 5252.11

Yaaaay! Make sense Dave? Sorry if that was hard to follow, my paper was a lot easier to understand. As Stevie alluded to, the torque and RPM is actually what the dyno measures and it just plugs those two into the above equation to get power. Pretty nifty shit huh?

Ummmm.... I went to an art school.

I'll have to go through this again later and figure it out. I may just write a script... this way I know what's going on.

Ok now ladies... how do I make more torque? Just pure raw power?

Yes sir. Rev that bitch out and adjust the timing a bit and that bitch will be screaming.

Thor? Good wright up, makes perfect sense.

I'm gonna be a noob and throw something out there, bare with me here. So if the dyno measures power at the wheels, a lighter flywheel would speed revs up thru out the engine and drivtrain right? Does that not mean that you would show more power on the dyno? And the revs would go up higher and get there faster? How does that not increase hp or torque for that matter?

A lighter flywheel would increase your whp. It frees up some of the power that is usually lost in the drivetrain. You will not make anymore bhp though.

A lighter flywheel will make more HP, but it's harder to drive on the street with a lighter flywheel, it has to deal with less rotational mass and shit, I don't feel like explaining it right now...maybe later.

A lighter flywheel would increase your whp. It frees up some of the power that is usually lost in the drivetrain. You will not make anymore bhp though.
I understand that much, I just thought it would also speed things up mechanically at both ends by amking the workload easier.

I understand that much, I just thought it would also speed things up mechanically at both ends by amking the workload easier.

what you mean at both ends? the crank and the wheels?
The crank is before the flywheel. ANd when they measure BHP they don't even have a flywheel on they measure it right from the crank. Like you get a engine sitting on hoist and they just measure how much it makes there is no clutch no flywheel transmission so all those parts are irrelevant to BHP only WHP. But in the WHP is all that matters wouldn't matter if you made a thousand BHP if you can't get it down to the wheels.

Here is what a torque curve normally looks like.

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b229/defiancy3/th_scan0001.jpg (http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b229/defiancy3/scan0001.jpg)


Too me David-b's torque curve looked a bit low at the beginning, I wouldn't expect the torque curve to climb that much. But I guess it's because it's an NA 4 cyl motor. Not that that's bad or anything.

A lighter flywheel will make more HP, but it's harder to drive on the street with a lighter flywheel, it has to deal with less rotational mass and shit, I don't feel like explaining it right now...maybe later.
Have you ever driven a car with a lightweight flywheel? Unless you get a stupidly light one, theres nothing to worry about.

I have one. I really didn't notice much difference. You have to be a little more careful releasing the clutch as the car will drop the rpms more easily. But its not that big of a deal.

I wish I had gotten a lightweight.. and a clutch that feels like Silvers. This is all good info.

I wish I had gotten a lightweight.. and a clutch that feels like Silvers. This is all good info.


Zoom stg 2 baby, with a slightly heavier pressure plate than stock. I dont think I could drive a car with hardly any pedal resistance.

Ya but you know where's it at. You felt mine right? Super soft and I hate it. Sure I know where it's at after driving it so long, but I want harder. And that is stiffer with the new clutch that what it used to be.