97 Grand Am - Won't crank


cranky-condor
01-29-2008, 12:24 PM
Well I'm new here but have been searching and reading your posts for some time!! "Lurking" Great site btw....

And My daughter's friend has a 97 Grand Am GT v6 that is now dead and in my garage... The initial symptoms were intermittent starting problems... Wouldn't crank then come back in a little while and it would crank then start. And it has been getting worse.

So I read up and decided to change the ignition switch, no real change, Then I pulled the starter and replaced the solonoid which was a mess. I also tested the starter/selonoid and it works fine off the car.

On the car, nothing again. So I hooked up a remote switch to the selonoid and tried to start it with the ignition on and it would run for about 2 seconds then the anti-theft system would kick in and kill it, thinking I'm trying to steal it... (Who would want to steal this?? hahaha)

So I decided to try the Passlock bypass, with the resistor as per user ponchonutty (4/28/2007). Measured the resistance (2864) and put together 3 - 1k ohm resisters and ended up with 2950. Attached it to the yellow wire and the bared black ground. Tried the passlock reset 10+ minutes, 3 times. And the THEFT light still remains on and it will not start...

HELP!! I'm running out of ideas. Is there a starter relay involved? Are there fuses somewhere hidden (I've checked the monster fuses and the ones by the drivers door)? I read mention of an oil sensor and that stopping engine cranking.... where's that? and I read mention of some sort of anti-theft key under the steering column?

Any help would be greatly appreciated...

c-c

xeroinfinity
01-29-2008, 08:21 PM
Welcome to AF.

How many volts is the battery putting out ?
Sounds like the starter is bad, though that doesnt fix the security issue.

Also did you replace the whole ignition switch, or just the lock cyclinder ?

What you might try, if you didnt, is leave the key on for at least 11 minutes 3x. it has to be at least 11 minutes or its not going to work.

cranky-condor
01-29-2008, 09:08 PM
Thanks for the reply!!

11.92 volts by my meter, after 5 - 10 minute retrys tonight... with the headlight relay pulled.. And I have had it jumper cabled to a deep cycle marine batery with a batery charger on it. With the charger on it it's putting out 12.54 volts..

I replaced just the ignition switch and the selenoid.. The starter works fine using the remote switch I made.. but when I try to start it using that, it runs for 2 seconds, the anti-theft light comes on and the engine dies... That's kind of why I figured there's an issue with the passlock system...

I have read in two diferent places that you are supposed to move the key to the start position (crank) then let off , keeping it on for 10+ minutes and in another thread that you are not supposed to put it in the start (crank) position, only in the run position.

cranky-condor
01-29-2008, 10:35 PM
Just finished another ropund or 11 + minutes x3... without success.. The theft light remains on no matte3 what...

xeroinfinity
01-30-2008, 08:34 AM
Just finished another ropund or 11 + minutes x3... without success.. The theft light remains on no matte3 what...

Not good !

So it doesnt crank/turn over at all ??
Double check those wires by the starter, especialy the fuseable links.
Even if the pass lock was in fault, it still should crank over just wont start. That's what makes me think it's the starter not the passlock.

Good Luck

cranky-condor
01-30-2008, 08:58 AM
Which wires have fuseable links? There's two wires on the larger seloniod terminal and the one small wire on the smaller terminal.

And could this have anything to do with the ignition recall of the 97 Grand Am's?

Auto Recall Date: 03/06/2002
Vehicle Component: ELECTRICAL SYSTEM:IGNITION:SWITCH
Estimated Vehicles Affected: 1589948
1997 PONTIAC GRAND AM Defect Summary:
ON CERTAIN PASSENGER VEHICLES. IF THE ENGINE FAILS TO START AND THE DRIVER HOLDS THE KEY IN THE "START" POSITION FOR AN EXTENDED PERIOD, HIGH CURRENT FLOWS THROUGH THE IGNITION SWITCH, AND SOMETIMES PRODUCES ENOUGH HEAT TO MELT INTERNAL SWITCH PARTS.
Defect Consequence:
IF THE SWITCH IS DAMAGED, A FIRE COULD OCCUR IN THE STEERING COLUMN, EVEN WITH THE ENGINE OFF AND THE KEY REMOVED.
Remedy:
DEALERS WILL INSTALL A RELAY KIT IN THESE VEHICLES TO PREVENT HIGH CURRENT FROM FLOWING THROUGH THE IGNITION SWITCH. OWNER NOTIFICATION BEGAN MARCH 27, 2002. OWNERS WHO TAKE THEIR VEHICLES TO AN AUTHORIZED DEALER ON AN AGREED UPON SERVICE DATE AND DO NOT RECEIVE THE FREE REMEDY WITHIN A REASONABLE TIME SHOULD CONTACT CHEVROLET AT 1-800-222-1020, PONTIAC AT 1-800-762-2737, BUICK AT 1-800-521-7300, OR OLDSMOBILE AT 1-800-442-6537.
Notes: GENERAL MOTORS CORP., 02008

I don't know if the relay was ever installed on this car since she bought it after the recall date..

CC

cranky-condor
01-30-2008, 04:21 PM
And I had another question... I found this on the grand am owners forum and was confused... not that hard to do lately... lol

On my 97, there is an ignition/starter relay that was the source of the problem.

Symptoms: Battery is fine, but when you turn the key.............nothing.

the relay is a grey box at the front on the radiator support. part number is 12177235. After changing the starter I realized that this was the problem. Unfortunately, Pontiac claims that there is no starter/ignition relay.


Is this the recall relay? and is it different from the relays hidden up in the front bumper (one being the head light relay)?

Thanks again for putting up with my questions...

cc

cranky-condor
01-30-2008, 07:40 PM
Well's here's my nightly update!! lol More like a blog...

Took your advice and checked the continuity of the purple starter wire comint off the solinoid to the yellow wire coming into the ignition switch.. no breaks

Then checked the red wires coming into the switch +12 volts...

Then jumpered the red to the yellow and it cranked..

So the switch is not sending 12v down yellow wire to the selinoid... ???

cranky-condor
01-30-2008, 09:06 PM
Woo Hoo!! Think I got it!! Tried the switch off the steering column and it worked fine ... and figured the key wasn't moving forward enough to hit the starter position.. But if I wiggle it... I can get it go all the way. Went to a local hardware and had extra keys made and they are better... May have extra's of the extra's made and see if that works.

Else my daughters friend will have to get a key cut at the dealer from a code or vin number? Worst cast, new key/ locl/ tumbles..

I'm going through the anti-theft reset right now, it didnt work before because I never got to the start position iI surmise.... and have to put it all back together!!

cc

HotZ28
01-30-2008, 09:39 PM
[quote=cranky-condor]It sounds like you are making progress. BTW, where did you install the resistor for the bypass, under the steering column, or somewhere else?

Normally, you need to remove the panel under the dash and look for a pair of yellow or orange wires coming from the steering column and leading to a connector a short distance away. Unplug the connector and with the key in the ignition, measure the resistance at the wires leading from the steering column. The reading should match that of the chip in your key.


While the reading might match while the key is in the off position, it probably will change when the key is turned forward. If this happens, the problem is in the ignition cylinder, key reader, or the wires leading to it.


The easiest way to install this resistor is to cut the wires leading into the column about a foot from the connector. Take this section of wire, strip the ends and solder the resistor in place. Take this section of wire and resistor and simply plug back into the connector under the dash. The VATS module is now tricked into thinking that there is always the correct key in the ignition. Although this does render the security benefits of the VATS system useless and if increased security is desired, the resistor can simply be unplugged, leaving the car disabled until it is reinstalled.

xeroinfinity
01-30-2008, 09:43 PM
Auto Recall Date: 03/06/2002
Vehicle Component: ELECTRICAL SYSTEM:IGNITION:SWITCH
Estimated Vehicles Affected: 1589948
1997 PONTIAC GRAND AM Defect Summary:
ON CERTAIN PASSENGER VEHICLES. IF THE ENGINE FAILS TO START AND THE DRIVER HOLDS THE KEY IN THE "START" POSITION FOR AN EXTENDED PERIOD, HIGH CURRENT FLOWS THROUGH THE IGNITION SWITCH, AND SOMETIMES PRODUCES ENOUGH HEAT TO MELT INTERNAL SWITCH PARTS.
Defect Consequence:
IF THE SWITCH IS DAMAGED, A FIRE COULD OCCUR IN THE STEERING COLUMN, EVEN WITH THE ENGINE OFF AND THE KEY REMOVED.
Remedy:
DEALERS WILL INSTALL A RELAY KIT IN THESE VEHICLES TO PREVENT HIGH CURRENT FROM FLOWING THROUGH THE IGNITION SWITCH. OWNER NOTIFICATION BEGAN MARCH 27, 2002. OWNERS WHO TAKE THEIR VEHICLES TO AN AUTHORIZED DEALER ON AN AGREED UPON SERVICE DATE AND DO NOT RECEIVE THE FREE REMEDY WITHIN A REASONABLE TIME SHOULD CONTACT CHEVROLET AT 1-800-222-1020, PONTIAC AT 1-800-762-2737, BUICK AT 1-800-521-7300, OR OLDSMOBILE AT 1-800-442-6537.
Notes: GENERAL MOTORS CORP., 02008


I have heard of this on several different models of cars with a plastic type ignition switch. Most that I have seen were from a charger boosting to many volts/amps through the system. And the newr models are not any better.

Sounds like you might have found the problem with the keys and lock cylinder. Hopefully this will work.

cranky-condor
01-30-2008, 11:58 PM
DONE sucess!! and I took the car back to the daughters friend... Took out the resister buy pass since it wasn't the problem.


did the 11 minutes plus reset 3 times (Crank then release to run) and the theft light did not start blinking as some have said but on the 4th try the car started and the light went out... was more along the lines of the pdf on the passlock system I read here..

Basically a worn key stopped it from fully engaging the starter...

Thanks for all the help, xeroinfinity!! Couldn't have done it with out you...

cc

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