3D Automotive Supercar Design

PhantomDesign

01-31-2003, 05:38 PM

Ran

01-31-2003, 05:54 PM

if you did it it's vvvveeeeeeerrrrryyyyy good!!!!!!!!!!:D :cool: :cool: ;) ;) ;) :) :) :D :cool: :cool: ;) :cool: :D :) :) :eek: :cool: ;) ;) :D :) :cool: :eek: :silly2: :sun: :sun: :D :D :cool: :sun:

PhantomDesign

01-31-2003, 05:57 PM

Of course I designed this car...

Thanks...
==================

1 more thing. Make a request to see that car from a specific angle with a specific pant job. Please give me a link to a picture of a car with the paint job, and another link to a pic at the specific angle you request. I'm willing to do this because I believe you guys know paints better than I do.

Graphik Styles

01-31-2003, 06:07 PM

HOLLLLLLYYY SHIIIIIIIITTTTTTTT................damn man you got skills...........shit that is so fuckin nuts..............ohhh shit.............whew shit thats wikked

MR2_Lancer

01-31-2003, 06:11 PM

DUDE!!!! How do you do that? I wanna try that!

MancuZ28

01-31-2003, 06:20 PM

Looks real good, man!! A few suggestions/comments: If its possible, make the windows frameless, or make the frame kinda sweep into the body work instead of just sticking out, it looks a little awkward with the top down. Also, the rear end is a little dull, and where exactly are the taillights? Other than that, looks amazing, nice work!

PhantomDesign

01-31-2003, 06:58 PM

De$i

He, he... Thanks...

MR2 Lancer

It takes a lot of time, an extremly High IQ, and a lot of creativity, and the capability to completly visualise an object in your head and visualise it from any angle. Any less, and you cant make soemthing this high quality.

MancuZ28

Dude, thanks for the suggestion(about the door frame). I've gotten lots of suggestions, but tht is the best one I've recieved to date... Currently adding to "to do" list... Could you elaborate further about the back end? Do I need more details? Are the existing details dull?

To locate the rear lights, look for the rear view of the yellow car. Most obvious there.

MancuZ28

01-31-2003, 07:23 PM

ok, now that i see where the lights are, i think the back looks a little better. I'm not exactly sure what i would suggest to improve the rear, i just dont think its quite as distinctive as the rest, still looks good though. Just out of curiousity, about how many polys make up that model? Looks like a hell of a lot! Also, what program(s) did you use to construct/render it?

Zammo

01-31-2003, 07:45 PM

ok the 3d work is excellent and design is slick

the car it self looks good

but on the grand scale of things its styling is outdated for a conceptual car IMO

you need to be years ahead in styling

look at the new prototypes see how the style is way hmmm unortodox

like the lexus in minoroty report

PhantomDesign

01-31-2003, 08:06 PM

No offense Zammo...

The Lexus in minority report was a sleek version of the VW beetle. That is not the future of design. These "futuristic" designs really aren't that appealing, jsut diffferent. Most of them have huge/large curves, and would not be sucessgful in todays market, and would be laughed at 10 or 20 years from now if someone actually produced them. I could create 100's of car with similar style to that lexus very quickly, but that is not what I'm goign for. Perhaps my next 2 Design that are currently in progress will clearly demonstrate my point that there is no need for wierd blobby absttract shapes.

I build my designs to last for many years to come. Thatis perhaps the real reason I do not resort to such cheap 'fraudalent' designs.

My design was based on current/recent research in technology and aerodynamics, and the unique styling is carefully planned.

SuPeRcAr_MaN

01-31-2003, 08:34 PM

I replied to this thread in the Concept Cars section. But I think it deserves more praise. Amazing job. I draw cars, but no way can a drawing look as realistic as this. I gotta get into this stuff... :D

boingo82

01-31-2003, 09:29 PM

Originally posted by PhantomDesign
...It takes a lot of time, an extremly High IQ, and a lot of creativity, and the capability to completly visualise an object in your head and visualise it from any angle. Any less, and you cant make soemthing this high quality...

Heh, though designing cars might be a strong point of yours, humility isn't. :p Just kidding, I'd brag too. :) I'm curious how in-depth you've gone with this design, whether it's mainly cosmetic or you've figured out the mechanicals. Cutaway shots would be interesting.

Here are a few comments, in no particular order:
1st: I don't quite like the rear view mirrors, they look flimsy. Perhaps if they were anchored differently, closer down to the car, they might look less tacked-on. They're also very small considering they're the only source of rearward visibility. I think they'd look better if more integrated.
2nd: The A-pillar appears to curve slightly inwards from a frontal view, and the window out. It looks good from the side, funny from the front.
3rd: How do the doors open? Do they swing upwards or out? Am I correct in assuming that there are supposed to be no handles and the doors open by remote?
4th: I would rather see the lines on the hood continue on to the front spoiler rather than suddenly diverge.
5th: As posted above the way the hard-top is removed leaves an awkward door corner sticking out, and there are a lot of panel lines to wax when the top is in place. I'm not sure about the square piece being attached to the hard-top.
6th: This can be seen in the largest rendering posted: On the rear of the car, where the roof curves down to meet the spoiler, (not sure what this "trunk" area is called on a car that is not front-engined) there are a lot of lines, I assume from different panels meeting each other. There are just a few too many lines for me.
Overall I'd consider the design of the car to be very good. Please bear in mind that I'm nitpicking, as you asked for input. I can certainly respect the amount of time that must have gone into visualizing and then realizing the shape of the car, as I did a bit of 3d modeling myself back in the day.

I hope this goes well and you find a buyer. There's nothing quite like getting paid for doing what you love. ;)

Finally, I visited your website, and in the interest of appearing more professional to potential buyers, I'd suggest you fix a few grammatical errors. In the interest of space I won't post these here, but if you'd like, send me a PM and I will reference at least 9 minor-to-severe errors I've noticed.

Zammo

01-31-2003, 10:49 PM

All valid points indeed

but with technological advances in drivetrains

vehicle designs and shapes of the next few decades are going to be weird

remember the movie demolition man most of those where prototypes and they where or are produced today and todays auto styling is alot similar too (and yes granted thats mainly due to aerodynamics) but the latest batch off crossover vehicles is going the sharp straight lines with the exception off Holden (australias GM) our prototypes look the same as todays commodore with a ute tray

Take the head lights of the ford indigo using some kind of halogen/laser spotlightbeam they are lucky to be 20mm high x very wide yet light the road like normal halogens those thin slits would look awesome in todays supercars instead of the lights they have now.

thats just one example i could rattle off hundreds more

and yes the MR lexus waqs a tricked up VW but only for the driving scenes of the movie

Toyotas acctual concept planned to use a new technologies still in the R&D fases so no working prototypes were available

Oh and half the cars in demolition man where kit cars too they used them simply for styling purposes to portry the futuristic look which is researched by consultants in the industry

which is exactly what the movie MR tried to do (but looking at thier other technologies Anti gravity or gravitational field manipulation devices would not have been that far fetched)so wheels and all associations with them would have been obselete.

and its highly possible we will be flying in 10 - 20 years as working prototypes of these vehicles also already exist your designs are by far most excellent and if produced today may sell for a year or two but to me that car looks like a ferrari and a lambo hoped into that machine of the movie the FLY and come out looking like that

Note if you can push bend or completely break the rules and stil achieve the results you need you will be picked up by a design team in no time
but as all ppl in the industry alot of education and learning are involved in getting a jod as an automotive designer (if you need any links or references to them Google search automotive design or exterior styling)

I am currently trying to work out 3Ds max and i know a little ACAD
so as soon as i can weild those tools like i can photoshop (which ive used since 1st MAC version) you will see my car Maybe you could do the styling as i beleive practicality is better suited to my vehicle so it will probably look like crap. But ive got hand draw pics and plans of it Everything is engineered by me Suspention VCU & Electornic hardware (Programing of VCU is one thing i cant yet do) Engine and driveline I have some far fetched ideas too Taht can be replaced with todays less advanced technology untill the development of these ideas is practiced and made comercially available.

Sorry for that i dont wish to knock you or your work (wish i could 3d model like u) im just providing my point of veiw in detail to someone with similar intrests to mine PLZ dont hate me for my opinion

PhantomDesign

02-01-2003, 02:35 AM

Supercarman:
lol

Boingo82:
While I have those qualities, I was merely trying to make a vague explanation becasue designing these cars in 3D takes a lot fo time, and I don't have tiem to teach anyone.
Who doesnt liek to brag a little? I'm not really taht arrogant though. I often joke about it...(like above)

I consider mechanical aspects, but do not design them. That requires a lot of research/training to put the acutal stuff in there. I did make sure htere was enough air for the engine, and large enough spaces for various components..liek the engine and steering stuff... Also, I made sure the top actually could fit as I described.

1. Mirrors...hmm... I'll think about it. About visibility...cameras. There are 4 places on this car for them, and you'd ghave to have atleast teh rear camera. 1 front, 2 on the mirrors, adn 1 in the back.

2. The A-pillar. Sorry, but I'm not very good with therminology. Elaborate.

3. Doors rotate forward....lemme check for an example.....Lamboghinni diablo. That style of movement. Not liek the McLaren F1. The doorss are electronic.

4. I understand....don't think I'm going to do it, but thanks anyways...

5. The tiny "squares" are 2 more panels that side back. So the top consists of 4 panels..2 main, and 2 small.

6. They're kind of part of the style. I'll think about it...maybe I'll figure soemthing out.

Zammo:
I'm not easily offended. You could tell me my stuff weas a worthless pile of smelly **** (I bleeped that) as long as you had a reason or good critique. I intended no offesne to you either. I only base my designs on current technology, or dechnology that WILL be in existence soon (research is near completion). I allows for new technology to be integreated into my cars, but am not dependent on them.

I didn't use spell check so live with it (lol)

=======================================

P.S. Sorry about 2 posts, just this forrum has so many categories, I didnt think it was a problem and that I'd probably be hitting 2 different groups of people. The otehr topic is colsed, but you can view what was said if U want....

http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=755323#post755323

SuPeRcAr_MaN

02-01-2003, 03:00 PM

Just noticed the McLaren F1 style seating and steering wheel. I am not a fan of this design, and if you wanted someone to really make this car, I think it should be normal. I don't want to critisize such a great job though. ;)

PhantomDesign

02-01-2003, 06:18 PM

The reason I design my cars with 3 seats is becase I want the driver to sit in the middle. With the driver in the middle, he has much better sense of the entire car. This gives him a sizable advantage. Rather tahn a left turn feeling completly different from a right turn, the feel is symetrical. The 3 seats is becasue there's equal size on the left and right, so a passenger seat was added to each side.

I was going to make another version with a new interior, but I havent gotten to it yet.

I know the feeling not wantign to critise something so cool. Liek I think the Ferrari Enzo has a decent number of stylistic flaws, and half of thse stylistic flaws have nothing to do with aerodynamics. If I could have a ferrari Enzo, I'd be extremly happy, and I know it has to look so much better in person than in pictures (same with my car design).
I greatly appreciate all criticism, even if I cannot or will not put them to use.

Deakins

02-01-2003, 06:43 PM

Well, nice car :D
Now:
Brake cooling: The front brakes need it more than the rear ones.
Wing: From the looks of it, it would only create drag.
Exhaust pipes: Is this car steam powered? Too big.
Passenger seats: The McLaren front seat is further to the front, so that passengers can get their shoulders behind it. This would probably get to cramped.

J SPEC SilEighty

02-01-2003, 08:19 PM

Originally posted by Deakins
Exhaust pipes: Is this car steam powered? Too big.

agreed. It looks like I could stick my head in those things.

Other then that, amazing work man. it looks very good :)

RyanGiorgio

02-01-2003, 08:21 PM

Thats rediculous that you made that yourself. You should get involved with some major companies...seriously. Thats the most amazing car/work i have EVER seen in this forum. Just one suggestion: make the exhausts a bit smaller. It looks like is is a jet powered car. But other than that i am astonished at the amazing work and skill that went into this. I wish i was as creative as you. Good luck, and i am SURE that when you show this car to some major companies that they will produce a concept, and then maybe production. Again, GREAT job!

boingo82

02-01-2003, 08:44 PM

Originally posted by PhantomDesign
...Who doesnt liek to brag a little? I'm not really taht arrogant though. ...

I know, I was just kidding. :) Thought it was funny.

Originally posted by PhantomDesign
...2. The A-pillar. Sorry, but I'm not very good with therminology. Elaborate

I couldn't find the words to describe this..in the front of the window on the door, there is that triangle where rear-view mirrors are normally mounted. Obviously they couldn't be mounted there on this car because of the width of the vehicle would compromise any view of the rear. From the front of the vehicle, the triangle piece makes the A-pillar (the front pillar on the car, which frames the windsheild and supports the roof) appear to curve inward slightly. ) ( It isn't a big deal. None of the things I mentioned are really serious concerns, just little things I noticed.

Originally posted by PhantomDesign
.......P.S. Sorry about 2 posts, just this forrum has so many categories, I didnt think it was a problem and that I'd probably be hitting 2 different groups of people. The otehr topic is colsed, but you can view what was said if U want....

Not a big problem, just to eliminate confusion we prefer to keep each topic to one thread at a time, that way everyone is posting and sharing ideas simultaneously in one place. I understand the thing about reaching a different audience, that's why I left the thread open and linked over to this one. :)

supratuner

02-01-2003, 08:58 PM

thats cool! i like it!

inferno

02-01-2003, 10:14 PM

The car has a very nice design but there are a few areas that I would address on a touch up.

1. As mentioned before, the sideview mirrors are a little small, but also they don't go with the car...the car is a lot more angular and the mirrors look out of place. I don't know if you have seen the veilside mirrors that are on the S2000 Millenium kit, but those mirrors would look nice with this car.

2. About the ducting thing, the ducting is fine considering that this is obviously a mid-engine design...some of those other ducts would be needed to reach the radiators of the car. I don't know however if those ducts would be large enough for a high powered car. Also the air inlet system might need a little work to ensure that proper airflow will be getting to the motor.

3. The exhaust thing has already been covered by other people, so I am sure that you are aware of that.

Other than that, excellent design...maybe you should send that over to Honda for their next NSX. Maybe someone should go into designing a 650hp motor for it as well. :p

Xerxes

02-01-2003, 11:17 PM

very nice car......its got a great look from the front......there are however 2 things I would change. one would be that dual-exhaust. that is kinda big. also, the rear end, should look a bit lower. 2nd I would get new set of rims. for some reason, they just don't flow with the car. overall it looks great:flash:

pontiactrac

02-02-2003, 12:16 AM

Great job. I like it more than many designs on the market. Few opinions from me would be like the person above said, different rims. This car is too unique to have the standard five spoke, use ur creativity to muster up a unique designed rim that can be associated with the car. As far as the exhaust, i like the idea of raising them up, but they are a bit big. My last thing is... (this is a good one!!!>>>) I think u should make two identical cars, one with the fixed lights which you have, and one with flipup lights and see which one goes more with the car. I like the design of the lights. i just think they could be a little higher and larger. And i would want to know how the flip ups look on it. Good luck marketing!!!

PhantomDesign

02-02-2003, 02:08 AM

I'm readign and seriously considering all sugggestions, so don't think I've missed anything.

Exhaust:
From the general responses, I think I am goign to redo the back exhause a little. I'm goign to put 3 exhaust pipes in each, and I think that'd look cool.

Rims:
I'll try to think ogf soemthign creative. That's where I've revieved the most criticism...

Mirrors & "A-Pillar"
I'll try to think of soemthing. I think I can pul it off with a cut sort of look.

About becoming part of the car market...
I'm trying really hard. I don't mean to sound unprofessinaol, but if any of you have any contacts, please try to show them this stuff. The only area I am SERIOUSLY lacking is contacts. I can make the stuff no problem, I just need that first step.

Whether I do or do not I have "training" or the "professional appearance", all that matters when you get down to it is the final product. I'm workign on the other stuff, but 1 thing is for sure. I can produce.

Zammo

02-02-2003, 02:21 AM

Originally posted by pontiactrac
Great job. I like it more than many designs on the market. Few opinions from me would be like the person above said, different rims. This car is too unique to have the standard five spoke, use ur creativity to muster up a unique designed rim that can be associated with the car. As far as the exhaust, i like the idea of raising them up, but they are a bit big. My last thing is... (this is a good one!!!>>>) I think u should make two identical cars, one with the fixed lights which you have, and one with flipup lights and see which one goes more with the car. I like the design of the lights. i just think they could be a little higher and larger. And i would want to know how the flip ups look on it. Good luck marketing!!!

But if its a tru supercar flipup lights will create drag hence i think try the indigo lights

maxhogblom

02-02-2003, 02:37 AM

thats aboslutely amazing!!

I think the onther have covered the major points: exhuats, rims, mirrors etc etc

however, i think that the rear end in total looks a little wack, but that will probably be changed when u fix the exhuasts:cool:

other than that, fantastic work!!
:smoker2:

PhantomDesign

02-02-2003, 09:33 AM

Here's a to-do list I compiled from a few forums and some of my personal thought, things with a qestion amrk may be changes, adn thins without one will be changed...

1. ?[Clean Top and Convertible]?
2. Door window frame - make fit
3. Exhaust
4. Rims
5. ?Bulk front/wheelsize?
6. Spoler
7. Head-lights/taillights - Realisim
8. 2 seater version (additioanl version, not replacment)
9. Larger vent behinf front wheel
10. Larger angular sidemirrors

Soem of the ideas are ourely mine, and some of these are compilations of variosu suggestiosn I'bve goten from all over. Thanks for the suggestiosn so far. It looks liek I have 10 days of work so far, and I'd love more suggestions. I probably wondt start these suggestiosn untill I finish my scenery I'm developing. That way I can collect more hints, and think out how I'm going to go about re-modeling the parts.

I just started working on my palm tree. The setup is obviously off, but...
http://speed.supercars.net/boardpics/2003-1-2/842106-phantompanthera.jpg

Ran

02-02-2003, 10:37 AM

cool:D

DemonicAccord

02-02-2003, 12:15 PM

First off, I couldn't do that, so cheers, but on the other side, looks like 33% Dauer 962, 33% McLaren F1, 33% anemic Diablo with the other 1% made up by styling cues set out by Yamaha 13 yrs ago with the OX99-11. Its cool looking but seems (from the body design) to be circa early 90s, but with busy (in number and design) intake scoops reminiscent of the import market today, though high in number.

I am not dissing, please see the first sentance. You asked for an opinion, this is mine. Once again great work.

Zammo

02-02-2003, 12:40 PM

check this out 3D cars

http://www.3dshop.com/cgi-bin/Gallery/gallery?Vehicle=1

MancuZ28

02-02-2003, 01:26 PM

Woah, some cool stuff at that site. Phantom, you should get yours up there.

PhantomDesign

02-02-2003, 03:05 PM

Dem: Thanks for the opinion.

Thanks for the link. I don't know if I'll psot there, but it should be useful in giving me better ideas for rendering. For example, my sky needs to be mroe fo a gradient...rather than solid color with clouds. I had this idea a while back..but kept forgetting it.

I've alreasy said this, but I'M NOT EASILY OFFENDED!!!! You can say my work is shi* as long as you give a reason. But if you say soemthing like "You think you're all that, but you are a pile of shi*", that is a personal attack. So unless you are attacking me perosonally, you can hardly go wrong.

SuPeRcAr_MaN

02-02-2003, 05:32 PM

Originally posted by Zammo
check this out 3D cars

http://www.3dshop.com/cgi-bin/Gallery/gallery?Vehicle=1

That site is really sick, but they are all real cars. That's cool and all but I want to see cars that people create.

JRL

02-02-2003, 07:46 PM

Great graphic work, was it done in 3DstudioMax?

I think it looks a little to much like the Mclaren F1.

Its still a really good design though.

viroid

02-02-2003, 08:59 PM

Very, Very Nice!!! Absolutly amazing man!!!

Few suggestion that came to mind...

1. I agree with what another said, go with a normal 2 seater setup, I'm not sure how wide this vehicle will be but I think it'll be a tight squeeze.

2. Overall I think your lines flow beautifully, I don't see anything I would change!

3. Regarding your Mirror issues, how about the use of wide-angle camera's and small color LCD screens mounted on the center consol, going to a two seater would leave more than enough room I think. You could have small extrusions on each side of the vehicle that hold small 1/2 or 3/4 in lens's and then something mounted on the back between the tail lights, or maybe in the middle of the spoiler .. I've seen UPS trucks using camera's and BMW's have integrated sensors for backing. Man that would be Awesome.. Depending on how you set your dash and stuff, being wide angle camera's(at least for the sides) you could use two small rectangular LCD's placed side-by-side and then a third slightly larger LCD centered under those for the rear view. I dont see a rear window with the top on so this could be the idea your looking for..

IM me sometime, I'm fairly good with these types of things .. would be more than willing to brainstorm for you.

...ViROID

endlesskev86

02-02-2003, 10:45 PM

very good and very realistic
what program did u use??
Rhino?

streetrcr45

02-03-2003, 12:02 AM

HELL YA!:devil: :greenchai :xelicon: .

just fix the exaust and it should look alot better

mad props on makin this thing.... WHAT PROGRAM did u use to create the car

and can u post a side view of the car in the same shade of green as this alien thingy:alien2:

PhantomDesign

02-03-2003, 01:24 AM

First request got first picture. I added my new palm tree..think it helps a lot.

http://speed.supercars.net/boardpics/2003-1-2/846423-phantompanthera.jpg

I used 3DS max r4

assanova

02-03-2003, 04:37 AM

It's cool, but very F50 ish, especially from the back. The angle looking down on the front from above is cool, because the front bumper/airdam is curved. Having said that, I think it reminds too much of the F50. Otherwise it looks cool.

Ran

02-03-2003, 07:52 AM

now it's MUCH better!:D

PhantomDesign

02-03-2003, 08:23 AM

If I replaced the spoiler, you'd probably think iot looked verry little like an F50....Actually let me see if that was on my list to make more spoiler styles or not....

...added it to the list.

DemonZX

02-03-2003, 12:17 PM

i take it you are a big McLaren fan?! Great job! that's:ylsuper :badass:

SuPeRcAr_MaN

02-03-2003, 05:05 PM

Now that I think about it, it does look like a McLaren. But it is very nice and there are a lot of things that set it apart from an F1.

PhantomDesign

02-03-2003, 05:08 PM

There are similarities to the McLaren F1, but I was careful not to copy it. I think the Saleen S7 looks very similar to a McLaren F1, compared to my car vs a Mclaren F1.

PhantomDesign

02-03-2003, 07:05 PM

Message Edited: Don't bother reading the stuff below. Instead, please visit www.coroflot.com/phantompanther for the new description stuff I didn't delete the message for contextual reasons....

==============Read Above==================
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Feel free to boor yourself. You might find it interesting :)

I used 40 minutes and typed this below...it's kind of liek an auto-responder for car companies. I'm going to use some of this in the portfolio at www.coroflot.com, but the site is under construction meaning I can't update the stuff.

Give me some feedback. I won't be offended if you skip this.

========================================

Thank you for contacting Phantom Design Studios. You will receive a personal response shortly. In order to best service you, this response was prepared February 3, 2003.

Below, you will find descriptions of various business arrangements. Many terms discussed are for general cases, so this is not exhaustive and many aspects described are quite flexible.

Introduction:
Phantom Design Studios is completely owned and operated by Jonathan Griffin. Phantom Design Studios started in June of 2002, and since then has rapidly increased in quality, capability, and speed. All automotive designs are completely original, copyrighted works. Every Design is a complete 3D model, which is guaranteed to look better than the 2D images shown.

Service Types:
Phantom Design Studios offers a wide variety of automotive design services. The most common design services are the “Pre-Designed Service” and the “Custom Design Service.” The pre-designed service relates to designs that have been completed or are under construction. The custom design service consists of Phantom Design Studios working in conjunction with engineers and stylists of your company. Other design services are available, but most likely are considered a “custom design service.” For example, a movie industry may desire a “futuristic” vehicle design, which would be classified under “custom design service” even though the description does not match.

Pre-Built Design Service Description:
Phantom Design Studios’ pre-designed services consist of high-quality designs that are built as stand-alone designs. These designs should be able to be merged into any company’s product line. Multiple versions or modifications of a single design are often available, and included by default.
These unique designs are complete 3D models, and are guaranteed to appear better in person than in 2D images. They are products of extensive unique methods of research and modern engineering concerns. The designs usually include at least one highly unique feature or style that separates it from and existing vehicle. For more information, view descriptions of each individual design.

Custom Design Service Description:
Phantom Design Studios’ custom design services are not limited to any types of vehicles or styles. The most common uses of the custom design services would be to produce an upgrade of an existing model or to produce a model that fits the stylistic trends and standards of the company.
To upgrade an existing model, it is suggested that one physical upgrade be considered. This would include a more powerful of efficient power train, better handling, or increased passenger comfort. Another aspect of consideration is the general direction in style if the car is a 2nd generation car or later. Specific features in previous generations will also be carefully considered. Overall, a significant upgrade should occur, while preserving aspects of previous generations.
If a completely new model is to be made, many additional factors will be involved. Much more than stylistic trends and standards of previous models must be considered. While Phantom Design Studios designs the entire 3D model of the car and determines the unique stylistic features, direct dialogue with stylists and engineers will be utilized to ensure minimum refinement is needed upon completion.
While the style and type of vehicle is not limited, complete 3D designs are completed in months rather than years (times will vary).

Compensation for Services:
Phantom Design Studios services are to be compensated through contractual agreements. The exact terms and conditions vary greatly depending on the quality of the final product, but some general demands for most services are described below.
Phantom Pre-Designed Services consists of the highest quality, most unique work possible. Compensation for these designs will generally consist of an initial fee before any production, and royalties from each vehicle sold commercially. Phantom Design Studios also reserves the right to receive a minimum of one fully functional version of each design (which might be covered be royalties). Specific and additional demands will be discussed on case-by-case basis.
Phantom Custom Design Services will also be compensated through contractual agreement, but due to the possible variation of such arrangements, there are no fixed demands.
While certain terms may be presented by Phantom Design Studios, currently the client is expected to make the final offer, and write the contract.

Projects:

ZX-2000 Status:
The ZX-2000 is currently considered “Complete, but being modifications.” This means the ZX-2000 is complete, but a series of modifications or improvements are planned and currently in progress. If requested, a list is available, but is constantly changing. Stay posted for updated versions and watch the design improve.

ZX-1000 Status:
The ZX-1000 is currently considered “Complete.” This means the ZX-1000 has been completely finished, and will remain as is unless specific requests are made. Updated images with new paint jobs or surrounding environments may be changed, but modifications to the car are unlikely.

Current Projects:
SR-1000: The SR-1000 is a SUV concept that attempts to be the ultimate SUV to fulfill the “macho, built, tough, off-road, rough” mentality, and is being designed to look best in gloss black.

ZX-2000 Movies: The first movie will last 30 to 60 second and feature the ZX-2000 timing a quarter mile. The location is a straight track with a tropical beach on one side, and palm trees lining the beach and road. The pre-release will probably lack special effects (smoke and fire) and last 15 seconds.

“Go Digital” Design Competition: One to three car designs are planned for this competition. No details have been released yet.

ZX-2000 Description:
The sleek cutting profile and supreme stylistic details are trivial features in the ZX-2000 design. Designed for both racing and style, the ZX-2000 makes the ideal high-priced supercar. The most stunning feature of the ZX-2000 is its convertible feature.

The most promising ZX-2000 feature is its supreme convertible feature. Similarly to the Phantom ZX-1000, the ZX-2000 features a hard-top convertible with a roof intake, and automatically neatly hides behind the passenger compartment using only inches of space. The ZX-2000 includes an additional feature though. When the hard top disappears, the ZX-2000 transforms in style and function as the single roof intake is magically transformed into 2 separate intakes. Two distinctive high-level convertible features alone should guarantee successful marketing.

Stay posted for more description, more images, and updated versions of the ZX-2000. Currently 8 to 10 separate modifications are underway, which each should increase the overall quality and uniqueness of the ZX-2000.

ZX-1000 “Animated Description”:
The Phantom ZX-1000 will dominate both the road and the show room. Utilizing a supreme alliance of power, control, technology, and an intimidating style, the ZX-1000 is guaranteed to be the next standard in supercars.

The lightweight carbon fiber construction packs a roaring 12-cylinder engine with 2 powerful superchargers and 3 radiation ducts. This combination will create an enormous power vs. mass ratio. With a 7-speed transmission and a low-resistance air system, the ZX-1000 will possess extreme acceleration at any speed.

Such power would be useless without control. The ZX-1000 includes many aerodynamic enhancements. The combination of low cut edges, curved underside, and a diffuser create powerful and efficient ground effects. A rear spoiler combined with upward directed air in the front boost overall down force. The low upward-slanting profile creates the final touch for unparalleled control.

The design was constructed around the concept of ‘shared aerodynamics. The ZX-1000 employs a larger than normal engine compartment, which, in conjunction with the minimal slope of the back windshield area, dramatically reduced drag and upward lift.

Another important factor of the design was to produce an aerodynamic vehicle, while remaining stylistically appealing. Unlike cars with drag-inducing flat backs, engine radiation vents were strategically placed, increasing airflow through the coolant system. The diffuser also reduces back-end drag while efficiently enhancing down force.

To enhance the driver’s experience, the driver sits in middle of the car rather than sitting on the right or left. Passengers sit on each side of the driver offset slightly to offer the driver a better view. Hydraulic driven seats automatically adjust to provide the driver with the best view and most comfort. Additionally, four cameras capable of night vision are utilized to increase the driver’s awareness of the surroundings.

Control of most accessories and driving features are done through a touch screen located on the steering wheel. This allows the driver to safely change CD’s, alter cockpit temperature, lower windows, switch to convertible mode, and much more. Six programmable buttons on the steering wheel give the driver quick access to their most used controls. Two additional touch screens allow passengers to adjust accessories, or even watch DVDs.

The ZX-1000 design establishes a new innovative level of convertible never seen before. The hard top is not only specifically designed for maximum performance and style, but it is also designed to compact tightly, and maximize the utilization of space directly behind the passenger compartment. The 2 hard top panels use only inches of space when they slide neatly behind the passengers. The astonishing transformation of style and form establishes a new innovative standard for supercars and convertibles.

The pure flow of captivating curves dictates the style of the ZX-1000. Strategically placed curves are utilized to avoid dullness of flat surfaces and straight lines, providing a look as pleasing as its performance.

Whether the ZX-1000 is constructed in the year 2005 or the year 2025, it will establish a sizable dent in the supercar market, and become the most desired supercar in the world.

Takeshi_Nakazato

02-03-2003, 09:44 PM

According to what I just read and the many pictures i've seen, I have some thoughts

1. The exhaust outlets are way too big

2. If you are going to have a car with a carbon fibre body to reduce weight, there is no point in having many touch screens and stuff like that to weight the car down, that's the key to saving weight, less stuff in the car

3. I don't see why this car needs a 7th gear, if you want this to be a street car, no one will use a 7th gear, unless you expect this car to be a strict race car or you use really tight, and I mean really tight gear ratios, because you will never get to that 7th gear

4. I know I wouldn't want a touch screen on my steering wheel, especially when hitting the horn, I would go through at least 20 or more of those a year, you don't want to add stuff that will distract a driver, especially driving a monster of a car like this.

5. The air scoops and such all over the doors look quite complicated. Does that add weight aswell with all the mounting points for them? and it looks like this car has very many body panels aswell, wouldn't it cost more to produce a car like this?

6. This car doesn't look like it has a very good balance to it, the front looks so small compared to the monstrous rear end. It makes the car look like it can only go straight, I would be afraid to take it through a corner.

Not to be rude, but I would take a Pagani Zonda S over this any day, I'm sure it would cost a hell of a lot less too.

SuPeRcAr_MaN

02-03-2003, 09:59 PM

Hmmm, Takeshi... You seem to be the only one who has so much bad to say about this design. I could see a few bad points and a few good, but you flamed him. I would like to see you do better... :mad:

PhantomDesign

02-03-2003, 10:08 PM

It sounded like he was describing my old ZX-1000 design(compared to the new ZX-2000). I'll look closer in a little bit...but it's time for me to go work-out in the GYM.

Just a quick thing of note: You would not include the convertible features and touch screens and many other things on the srtictly race versions. I'd personally take the little bit of extra carbon fiber panels and slightly less efficent version to have the bad ace drop-top features.

PhantomDesign

02-03-2003, 10:15 PM

I forgot one thing to mention... Please notice the ZX-1000's description's title ZX-1000 "Animated Description" which means exagurated.

PhantomDesign

02-04-2003, 03:03 AM

Ignore the description above. Instead visit...

www.coroflot.com/phantompanther

...and critique that. Thanks for those of you who have put in some thought and effort to help me out so far.

Sound Gorillaz

02-04-2003, 10:57 AM

I myself wouldn't buy one!

I think it would make a great video game car but would never make it to the street.

Takeshi_Nakazato

02-04-2003, 03:07 PM

SuPeRcAr_MaN - I don't see how I'm flaming, It's my own opinion and that's what I think, as for doing better, I never stated that I could do better, but I would be willing to try my best at designing something

PhantomDesign - Sorry about my reply if I offended you in anyway

PhantomDesign

02-04-2003, 04:14 PM

No offense was taken. So, I'll take your apology and stomp on it...

PhantomDesign - Sorry about my reply if I offended you in anyway

....thuroughly stomped I think.

Yeah, no offense was taken. You were critiqueing my ZX-1000 work, whihc I wish I cold of had it back when I was working on the car. The new ZX-2000 dhough doesnt really fit your description, except you did convince me to make 2 different versions of my car. A 1 seater, non-convertable version, and a 2 seater comercial version(with convertable and all the cool addons like DVD players).

Anyways, just to boor you guys, I'll present a few situations, and tell you what is offensive...

Statments
1. Your work is so frickign awesome.
2. You think your work is so frickign awesome.
3. Your work sucks.
4. You think your work rocks, but it sucks.
5. You are so arrongant, and you cant produce anything. Who do you think you are?
6. You stuff blows so bad, my fat @$$ momma couldnt even suck it up.

Evaluation:
1. Totally not offensive
2. Well, it could be offensive depending on context
3. Completly not offensive if you give me a reason or critique
4. Completly offensive. This is a personal attack.
5. Completly offensive. This is a personal attack.
6. You're a complete wacko, and I wont take any offennse because you lack all intelligence.

So, expecailly considering #3, I'm not easily offended. Yeah, it is possible to offend me, but only if you make it personal. When people make it personal, I usually assume they are jealous, and trying to scare me. So I take it as a compliment and may not be offended.

People who hate critics are morons. That is perhaps one of the reasons my stuff is "top-of-the-line".

pontiactrac

02-04-2003, 05:22 PM

Originally posted by SuPeRcAr_MaN
Hmmm, Takeshi... You seem to be the only one who has so much bad to say about this design. I could see a few bad points and a few good, but you flamed him. I would like to see you do better... :mad:

Personally, i told everyone before, i think the car is unique and attractive. But come on guys, If you call that flaming u really have to get your balls out of a knot. He was simply stating his opinion, he thought some things should be different and thats what Phantom wanted, people's thoughts and opinions. So before you go around accusing people of flaming, make sure it is a true insult instead of a critique. Jeez, that is the problem with the site everyone is so worried to give their opinions because of the threat of being called a flamer. I don't personally agree with any of his critiques, but it is his right to state them. If he says, i would rather buy another car, everyone is like "oh GOD don't flame" IT'S JUST OPINION!!!
I think the car is awsome, keep up the good work< my opinion

PhantomDesign

02-04-2003, 05:31 PM

Originally posted by pontiactrac

Personally, i told everyone before, i think the car is unique and attractive. But come on guys, If you call that flaming u really have to get your balls out of a knot. He was simply stating his opinion, he thought some things should be different and thats what Phantom wanted, people's thoughts and opinions. So before you go around accusing people of flaming, make sure it is a true insult instead of a critique. Jeez, that is the problem with the site everyone is so worried to give their opinions because of the threat of being called a flamer. I don't personally agree with any of his critiques, but that it is Phantoms choice to change things, and not his anyway. If he says, i would rather buy another car, everyone is like "oh GOD don't flame" IT'S JUST OPINION!!!
I think the car is awsome, keep up the good work< my opinion

Thanks :)

I like fire. Turn up the heat. Whatever can't stand up against a test of flame deserves to be burned away, leaving room for another attempt to improve.

Jeez, that is the problem with the site everyone is so worried to give their opinions because of the threat of being called a flamer
..just to build off of what he said, you are a flamer if you don't start fires. Pyrotechnics burn flamers.

Well, I think the cries of "don't step on Phantom's toes" should have been snuffed by now. Back to the subject of my car design....

Zammo

02-05-2003, 01:55 PM

i agree with takeshi

take a direction either race breed or luxury

but a general mixture of the two is not going to be a profitable marketable product (something all companies want) altough nice and many ppl try to achieve this

i think seperate cars for each occasion are called for

hence my discust in the SUV crossover craze sweeping the planet

PhantomDesign

02-05-2003, 02:01 PM

I'm not going for luxury. The erason for 2 versions is to show how the compercial version could be slightly mroe efficent for an actual race track. The comercial version would have extras, but by far would not be a luxury car. For examply on the strictly race version, you have no reason to have convertable features. So the main design will still be the convertable one.

R34vspec2

02-05-2003, 09:09 PM

i think it sux, sorry but i just do, no tail lights, the headlights are too square, it looks too much like alot of the other supercars out there. i can say this beacause i design cars myself. you have AMAZINGLY good computer graphics skills, and i would never be able to do that, but just take a different approach, make a car that looks completely different from whats out there currently, that just looks like somekind of mclaren clone.

Spinnin_fo_sho

02-05-2003, 11:25 PM

just because it looks like a Mclaren clone doesnt mean it sux. Its nice and u can see the effort that has been put into all this........

hey Phantom, good job bro...keep it up. But one thing........just try to have more confidence in urself.....dont let bastards move ya around.....i know u want our input and our comments but you gotta stand up for all the work u put into this. Im not offending anyone here.....peace

PhantomDesign

02-05-2003, 11:35 PM

Thanks for the input so far.

I've been workign some on my first short movie. It's commign along really nicely.

I don't know if this is good or not..and don't really care, but I'm not very easily discouraged. I look at all my flaws as areas of improvment.

This weekend..saturaday and sunday, I'm going to start a huge make-over of my car. Next time you see that car, you're going to have to look A LOT harder for things to criticize. I'm goign to try to make it so dificult you'll have a hemorage before you can dind any flaws. I'm obciously joking, but I'm goign to try to so atleast SOMETHING about nearly EVERYTHING that has been said about my car.

Thjanks for the input so far. Please give me any other criticism you can think of...anything at all. I often get good ideas fro mteh stupidest/most irrelevant cirtiques. Even critiques as simple as "The Door doesn't look rihgt, I don't know why" could give me an idea...(Note: I think the door is perfect, except the framing over the window, jsut giving a possible example) so, "BRING IT ON!!!!!" (lol)

P.S. Updated the images at my www.coroflot.com/phantompanther portfolio.

Spinnin_fo_sho

02-06-2003, 12:01 AM

I aint tryin to mess with ur work or copyright or anything but I wanted to elaborate on what everyone meant about smaller exhausts and stuff. No offense to ur other work...but I hope u get the visual of what they meant.....i thought since the whole car has a "square" shape, retangular exhausts would be better, and smaller as well......thats all...nothing to show off or anything........anyone has any ideas?

PhantomDesign

02-06-2003, 12:11 AM

http://speed.supercars.net/boardpics/2003-1-5/859169-phantompanthera.jpg

You're edit (in post above) is actually aproximately what I planned..except for the exhaust location and shape. I'm moving the exhaust down to the typical locations...behind the left and right wheels, and it's goign to be 4 circular chrome exhaust pipes. Thanks anyways. That's probably the best way to make suggestions. I dont mind that sort of stuff as long as you arent posting that elsewhere...

op012503

02-06-2003, 12:32 AM

Hi Good Work

I think the design is great but the rear needs some work. I think that car companies are a lot more interested in a practical car design rather than that of a supercar and if you are going to design something of such high technical caliber, youve got to know mechanics, aerodynamics, and many other things. Good luck :sun:

PhantomDesign

02-06-2003, 12:36 AM

Very true about the high-tech stuff, but something like this really shows off my skills. I'm not too far off on aerodynamics or mechanics, becasue I did a lot of research, but I admit that it's not accurate. I'm going to be gettign a masters degree in aerospace engineering which should help. My next designs are going to be lower in class.

Zammo

02-06-2003, 12:53 AM

Originally posted by R34vspec2
i think it sux, sorry but i just do, no tail lights, the headlights are too square, it looks too much like alot of the other supercars out there. i can say this beacause i design cars myself. you have AMAZINGLY good computer graphics skills, and i would never be able to do that, but just take a different approach, make a car that looks completely different from whats out there currently, that just looks like somekind of mclaren clone.

It sux

well i wouldnt go that far its just not a design that forges head in alot of ways

the mechanical aspects of a supercar can be as advanced as the aerospace industrie so yes that will help a great deal

and considering the fact that this bit of a vehicle is some what more important to styling i would say its a key step

I know i would want the worlds best performance car regadless of looks

R34vspec2

02-06-2003, 01:01 AM

im just saying one thing...............its not something i would like to see in the year 2005 or so, its not up to date, it looks like something outta 97-98, look at car designs now, they are waay more geometrically correct and they have an overall "pure" shape, and other innovations, i suggest more flow with the detail components, more geometric pefection, as i said your animation skills are waaay above par, but you car design could be fixed... just get a little more up to date, i just cant picture that the supercar of the future.

R34vspec2

02-06-2003, 01:15 AM

sorry, i meant to say less bumps and grooves etc, cars nowadays are more shaped. look at audi, look at the murcielago, look at the cadillacs, more sharp cornes combined with fine grooves on the details, and lots of aerodynamic flow with the shape, i hope what im trying to say is getting across here...

PhantomDesign

02-06-2003, 01:39 AM

I understand completly. My first supercar design was very much a smooth-body design. This one was very detailed to contrast the previous design.

Spinnin_fo_sho

02-06-2003, 09:09 PM

You wouldnt see cars like this till 2010..so this is something great. keep up the good work

PhantomDesign

02-06-2003, 09:13 PM

I've started doing the mnodificatiosn to my car. I finished the new headlights, and have jsut started replacing the rear exhaust. The exahust pipes would not fit behind the wheels, s I am placing the quad-exhaust directly above the diffuser (underside wing in back of car). I have a really cool idea for the rims on my car, and expect that to be hte third modification I am going to do.

I'll show you the uprdates all at once. It will be about 1 to 1.5 weeks till I and mode with the modifications.

omicron

02-07-2003, 03:43 AM

that thing's got more vents on it then I have in my house.

PhantomDesign

02-07-2003, 04:06 AM

Originally posted by omicron
that thing's got more vents on it then I have in my house.

lol...true. I was goign for a design on the extreme end of complex (on the edge, but not jumping off the cliff...atleast I think so)

vindluver

02-08-2003, 02:08 PM

Please help me!! im A racer and i LUV their cars, does anybody know where i can buy them or where I can get the car name!!?? please help me!!:(

PhantomDesign

02-08-2003, 02:15 PM

The Car's name is the Phantom ZX-1000 or the Phantom ZX-2000. I do not have a better name yet.

If you're lookign to buy a fully working car, you'll have to wait untill a car company puts this into prodution.

I am currently lookign for a car manufacturer to do this.

While you can't buy a physical car, I do accept donations to support my cause. As in my cause to get this thing into production.

Mr Deap

02-08-2003, 02:38 PM

Look more like a video game car...

pontiactrac

02-08-2003, 03:10 PM

Originally posted by R34vspec2
sorry, i meant to say less bumps and grooves etc, cars nowadays are more shaped. look at audi, look at the murcielago, look at the cadillacs, more sharp cornes combined with fine grooves on the details, and lots of aerodynamic flow with the shape, i hope what im trying to say is getting across here...

I completely understand what you are saying. I agree that they do have less bumps and stuff like that, but that doesn't necessarily mean today's cars look better. I am one to think that previous generations of cars kill the looks of some of todays shapes. Damn i miss the old 300zx, now it has been turned into beetle speedster. But what i am also saying is that there arn't any rules saying that models have to have similar stuctures. I think the curves are great whether we are dealing with 2003 or 2010... that is if wheels are still used, lol.

PhantomDesign

02-08-2003, 03:13 PM

Originally posted by pontiactrac

I completely understand what you are saying. I agree that they do have less bumps and stuff like that, but that doesn't necessarily mean today's cars look better. I am one to think that previous generations of cars kill the looks of some of todays shapes. Damn i miss the old 300zx, now it has been turned into beetle speedster. But what i am also saying is that there arn't any rules saying that models have to have similar stuctures. I think the curves are great whether we are dealing with 2003 or 2010... that is if wheels are still used, lol.

AMEN BRO, PREACH IT!!!

I hate it when people have the idea futuristic is going to be a specific style, and that's all there is too it. My future car company will have a huge variety of style. You can't say that it won't work in the future becasue it doesn't fit a modern day persons concept of the future.

Kenskispecv

02-09-2003, 01:07 PM

Word! Nice ride. I'll take two.......................

PhantomDesign

02-09-2003, 02:47 PM

You do get 2 cars in one purchace. It's completly different when you hit that button to make hte top go down. All you need a chamelion paint job to give it the finishing touch to the 2 in 1 thing.

pontiactrac

02-09-2003, 03:15 PM

are there some advantages that the non-mechanical top has over the mechanical one, does it weigh less.

PhantomDesign

02-11-2003, 01:21 AM

boingo82

02-11-2003, 05:29 PM

I definitely like it best in that liquid silver. :licker:

SuPeRcAr_MaN

02-11-2003, 06:35 PM

Originally posted by boingo82
I definitely like it best in that liquid silver. :licker:

Ditto. That color is gorgeous.

PhantomDesign

02-11-2003, 06:38 PM

Cool...took me a while to get that silver correct.

SuPeRcAr_MaN

02-11-2003, 08:17 PM

What is the other car in all the pics??? Did I miss something?

PhantomDesign

02-11-2003, 09:29 PM

Oppss... sorry, my ZX-1000 snuck into a few of them. That's my first design. It's much more smooth-styled than my ZX-2000, less complex.

SuPeRcAr_MaN

02-12-2003, 01:18 PM

Cool. I like it. Can you sneak in a few more pics of just that car? And when can we expect another design from you? I am sure that these things take long, I'm just wondering if you have another model on the way.

PhantomDesign

02-12-2003, 01:27 PM

Well, I started an SUV concept but havent touched it for about 2 weeks now. I know that will eventally be finished though. I've got some other ideas which I havent started yet, but you wont erally see any of them untill they're basically complete.

You will beseeing an update of my ZX-2000 desing soon. It should be ready friday or eariler. I amden extremly cool Orange chamelion paint taht looks great, but will require a fw refinments. I'll just say that the update should be suprisingly better. Afterall I said it was possible to improve perfection.

I may start a new topic for the ZX-1000 is a few days. If I do, there will be a link added to this thread to the oher one.

pontiactrac

02-12-2003, 03:05 PM

The more and more i look at the rear, the more i am liking the huge exhaust. I wasn't crazy about it before, but if you think about it, it could be practical. Im sure it would help the sound, and would allow the exhaust out with more ease. It also gives it that unique look too.:wave:

SuPeRcAr_MaN

02-12-2003, 03:33 PM

I can't wait to see the updated ZX-2000 and the new SUV design. Will it be comparable to any SUVs out on the market?

And I was thinking about the absence of badges on the cars. Didn't you come up with a logo when you were inventing these amazing cars???

And I still can think of a few things that would look better than that HUGE dual exaust. But then again, it is your project, do whatever you want. :D

PhantomDesign

02-12-2003, 07:29 PM

I wont post pics fo the SUV till it nears completion. I've got to finish my ZX-2000 modifications, and have to finish the paradise scene, then construct a new showroom. After that I'll contnue the SUV.

All I have left is to increase the realisim of the lights, make an additional spoiler style, and replace the mirrors...then ZX-2000 version 4 sill be complete.

SuPeRcAr_MaN

02-12-2003, 08:07 PM

Cool. Keep us updated. You didn't answer my question about a logo on the car??? And you aren't changing the exaust, dispite the criticism. Good, I think they will be a unique feature when this car is put into production. ;)

PhantomDesign

02-12-2003, 08:27 PM

I changed the exhaust due to overwelming support for cahnge. I'm trying to think of antoerh equally cool idea at the moment.

Here's an old picture of an old logo...

PhantomDesign

02-12-2003, 08:39 PM

About hte SUV. Think abotu any stand ard modern day SUV. Kind of useless offroads. O.K. We have a level 1.00 SUV. How, think ahead the a Hummer H1, or a Mercedes G55 AMG. Those are pretty cool, but those only rate 2.20 on my SUV scale (Hummer H2 rates 1.90) Now, lets move the bar up a little it. How about 2.5 No? Not hight enough? How about 2.75? Still not good enough. O.K. We'll go for 3.00. Still not satisfied? How about 3.50. Now ere talkign serious SUV off-road rough tough action. So, basically I'm sayign when I''m done, my SUV is going to aboslutely domiante.

Let me put it this way. Most above-average suv's we'll rate the same as a Eclipse Coupe....without any mods. Just a basic model. What would a hummer or mercedes G55 AMG rate at? Well, about the same level as a corvette. Now, how much better can a sports car get than a corvette? A corvette is nothing comared to a Lamborghini Murcelago.

Well, I view the SUV market as havign never reached anywhere near it's "modern day" potential. Without going to much farther, I'm going to confidently say....."good bye hummer".

So if U're an SUV fan.........your impatience meter should be shattered by now. Just wait :)

boman

02-13-2003, 05:43 PM

pontiactrac

02-13-2003, 06:20 PM

Originally posted by boman
It's nice to see that you have a hobby playing with a 3D program.
Unfortunately what's missing in your work is CREATIVITY, INOVATION
and STYLE.

I applaud your effort, but that's about it. Now all you need to do is
work on your graphic skills. Damn that logo sucks.

j

Sorry to be so harsh, but you asked for criticism.

Alright guys, you heard my reply about opinion... Well, the above post isn't anything closely related to opinion. That is called plane old JEOLOUSY!!! Alright, lets see what your supercar looks like if you think this is crap. Giving your opinion is having evidence to state it. "The logo sucks" isn't evidence. At least you applauded his effort, but you could have gave some nice comments like, the lights, the back... Critique and opinion is one thing, but flaming is another. When we see your creation, can we all speak our minds on it too? Ok, can't wait to see it. Here's for getting started... A car has 4 wheels. You do the rest. :angryfire

boman

02-13-2003, 07:19 PM

Originally posted by pontiactrac

Giving your opinion is having evidence to state it. "The logo sucks" isn't evidence.

That's the funniest thing I've read in a while. Let me guess... not much
of an english scholar.

A car has 4 wheels.

Think outside of the box.

j.

PhantomDesign

02-13-2003, 07:42 PM

It's nice to see that you have a hobby playing with a 3D program.
Unfortunately what's missing in your work is CREATIVITY, INOVATION
and STYLE.

I applaud your effort, but that's about it. Now all you need to do is
work on your graphic skills. Damn that logo sucks.

j

Sorry to be so harsh, but you asked for criticism.

I know the logo sucks. I said it was an old logo. What I do have a problem with is this part...

Now all you need to do is work on your graphic skills

Did you not see that car I designed? I'm sorry, but I havent found many people who can match the "CREATIVITY, INOVATION
and STYLE" all by them self. I've done lots of research over the last 18 months as I've been doign 3D grpahics, and while I know I can always improve, and always try to, there arent many people who can come anywhere near my graphics skills.

I hope you were ONLY reffering to the logo. If you were, please be more specific. The only time you mention the logo is at hte end when you say it sucks.

Soemone asked to see a logo, so I posted tha last oen I created. It's better than 99.5% of the logos I've seen, so it's still a good logo. I've seen plenty of better logos before, but consideing I spent very little tiem on the logo, and logos arent my specailty, I think that's pretty good.

boingo82

02-13-2003, 07:48 PM

Originally posted by boman
That's the funniest thing I've read in a while. Let me guess... not much
of an english scholar.

..says the genius who can't even spell INNOVATION. :rolleyes:

Here's what I think about the logo: Kinda complex. A lot of the most famous logos are really simple, i.e: the ATT blue ball, the Apple apple, the word SONY written in a specific typeface.

I think it would be more recognizable if it were simpler, crisper, etc, and used a font other than Helvetica or Arial.

And of course, I have to say again, that silver REALLY shows the car to its best advantage. :)

PhantomDesign

02-13-2003, 07:54 PM

About famous logos: The compaies have been around forever...that's why the logo is famous. I'll eventually have a cool logo, but I want to geyt it right before I set my "official" logo.

Silver really shows the car off becasue the origional idea n my head was to design an "industrial" style of vehicle...and make siver the primary color. I ended up makign is smoother and stuff, but I think your new favorie color will be the chamelion orange I just finished. High contrast but smooth. I could finish my the changes to my car tonight, but I have to finsih some thermodynamics stuff to do.

The car is looking unbelievably better. I'll quote my self again "No reason you can't improve perfection" Sometime tomorw there will (should) be updated images, just wait...

PhantomDesign

02-13-2003, 08:31 PM

I finally though of a name for my car... "Predator"

So instead of it being....
"Phantom ZX-1000"
It is now...
"Phantom Predator"

ZX-1000 is still it's "technical" designation, but the "Predator" the model name.

SuPeRcAr_MaN

02-13-2003, 08:55 PM

Good choice in the name change. I wasn't crazy about the GX-2000... Phantom Predator has a nice ring to it, an agressive name to an agressive looking car. With a little imprvement, that logo slapped on a car would look a little like a Corvette logo. I think you were on the right track with it, just need improvement. And hurry with the pics of the modified Predator. I can't wait any longer... ;) :D

aguydude

02-13-2003, 08:59 PM

The car is pretty good, but the design isnt very original. I'm not saying "parts" of the design isnt original, just it's shape. I think new design concepts should have a shape that's clean and shows innovations. The logo kinda looks like the corvette's. This is just my opinion.

SuPeRcAr_MaN

02-13-2003, 09:01 PM

Originally posted by aguydude
...The logo kinda looks like the corvette's. This is just my opinion.

I just said that ;)

aguydude

02-13-2003, 09:02 PM

oops, lol, didnt read all the posts.

PhantomDesign

02-13-2003, 09:05 PM

I based the cahpe on modern aerodynamics priciples...which inturn made the shape look liek the McLaren F1, Ferrari Enzo, Ferrari F50, Mercedes CLK GTR, Pangi Zonda, etc....

boingo82

02-13-2003, 09:08 PM

Originally posted by PhantomDesign
About famous logos: The compaies have been around forever...that's why the logo is famous. I'll eventually have a cool logo, but I want to geyt it right before I set my "official" logo.
...

I still think simplicity is key. For example, try and draw Canada's flag from memory. Easy. Red stripe, white stripe, red stripe, red maple leaf in the middle of the white stripe. Now try and draw, say, Mexico's flag from memory. It's easy enough until you get to that complicated flag/cactus stuff in the middle. :bloated:

I think that as a car designer, you want kids in high school to be doodling your logo on their desks, as they dream of one day owning the fine machines you design...

PhantomDesign

02-13-2003, 09:13 PM

I want something well done.

It will have a degre of complexity...but to ripp off the last guy who posted....but have it simple and catchy enough kids draw it on their desks.

It'll jsut be a metter of time. The ZX-2000 was a pretty cool concept when I started, but I got hundreds of ideas from the start of the project up untill about a 2 weeks ago. From 2 weeks ago until now I've gotten over 30 new ideas for the car.

It'll develop, and be the coolest car logo ever. Unfortuanetly, I won't take any suggestions, because the logo has to come from me. Maybe suggestions after I get the idea, and make hte basic one...but...

aguydude

02-13-2003, 09:18 PM

Originally posted by PhantomDesign

Did you not see that car I designed? I'm sorry, but I havent found many people who can match the "CREATIVITY, INOVATION
and STYLE" all by them self. there arent many people who can come anywhere near my graphics skills.

It's better than 99.5% of the logos I've seen, so it's still a good logo.

Yes, but arent we been a bit too arrogant here? "I havent found many people who can match the "creativity, innovation and style" all by myself". From what i can see, your car is mostly filled with airvents. It has an average headlight and front, and as i said before, a shape that's similar to supercars from 1995(i know you're gonna say it's aerodynamic, but many cars with much different shapes achieves great aeros). "there arent many people who can come anywhere near my graphics skills."Is that a joke? Now before someone flames me saying that i shouldnt comment cuz i suck at 3d(which i know by the way), but from someone that have seen many superior 3d renderings, im gonna say that you may not be as good at 3d as you might think. If you logo is better than 99.5 percent of the logos you've seen, you havent seen many logos, if any. Your supercar is good, not great.

PhantomDesign

02-13-2003, 10:25 PM

Ignore this reply due to some accedental confusion!

Logo:
95% of ALL logos are complete crap. Most car companies have great logos, so mine would rank at about 50% of car logos, but logos in general, my ranks in the top 99%, which is the top 20% of good logos.

===========================================

The rendering may not be the best rendering ever, but I was referring to 3D modeling skills, not rendering skills. I haven’t finished my environment yet, be patient. Of the few RENDERINGS that I've seen that are better, 95% of them are results of TEAM projects and more EXPENSIVE software.

Let's review the facts:

Car company:

Money: Multi-Billion Dollar Company
Employees working: 35-150 per project
Time invested: 3 to 8 years

Me:

Money: I've invested $4,500 hard earned cash.
Employees: One self-trained employee (me)
Time invested: 2.5 months (with 1 week remaining to invest)

I may be 'good', but I'm not 'god'. There is no question that I'm extremely good, but you seem to expect me to match huge car companies all by me self?

If you multiplied my investment by 4, we'd have 18,000 dollars of equipment & software, 4 of me, and 10 months of work...and the best design the world has ever seen or will see for years to come. And any car company would still have over 100 times the investment.
=====================================

The air vents are not just air vents. Every air vent on the car is multi purpose. All of them have a practical purpose (aerodynamics, cooling, combustion, or venting) and an aesthetic purpose. They were carefully planned to look good, and be more than a generic vent. I didn't add vents just for the heck of it.

If you are going to talk about aerodynamics, do your research. I've done a lot of research, and know my research is not complete, but please keep in mind I am very good with physics and mathematics. I do not have wind tunnel programs to test my car, but an engineer could easily tweak the shape of the car to be aerodynamics, without changing the style at all. It's not very far off. Sure more shapes do exist, but my shape is quite accurate. Why go for less than the best?

The future of automotive design is not defined by weird blobby shaped cars and abstract shapes. There will be a few of those for sure since the car market is a wide expanse. Keep in mind you are only looking at one of my designs.
=====================================

I'm really not arrogant. I know I'm good, but I'm don’t force it on every one else and try to make them feel that they are a lower life form than I am. If I was arrogant I would have used pure facts, and backed them up logically to completely and thoroughly trash your design, to the point where it would be unconceivable that you could ever make it anywhere in the car industry, whether it is actually true or not. Not a very difficult thing to do, but I always make an extra effort to be nice. Also, the many suggestions I would have received so far, I would have rejected all of them and been offended.

There's nothing wrong with being good and recognizing that. I recognize my flaws and imperfections, and always am working to improve my self. I don't put other people down, or tread all over their hard work in an instant. I offer useful critiques when requested and only offer the information that has constructive elements, rather than information that is purely discouraging.

=====================================

I don't know if I addressed this earlier in this specific forum, but please don't make your critiques personal. It really irritates me. I didn't run over your cat or anything. You are merely pretending to be objective, and are only disguising the words "your work is crap" and not backing up your opinion. I see that you are a fellow car designer, and while I won’t compare your work to mine, I must believe you are jealous, and trying to discourage me. After all, if a big fish enters the small pond, there won’t be much room for a small fish to grow.

I wish you the best, but please try to be more mature. To make it successfully in the car design industry it requires integrity. Even if you make it at first, a lack of integrity will permanently backfire leaving you with nothing at all.

You are probably about my age, which you maybe should expect this sort of behavior or attitude you express. As constructive criticism, I suggest you grow out of this sort of attitude. Instead of trying to climb over everyone else, make friends along the way and hope they'll pull you up the ladder with them.

VAD0R

02-13-2003, 10:27 PM

You are doing a great job in creating a supercar and I will be very happy to see another car manufacture arrive in the automotive scene.

But on the other I have to point out a couple things about the looks of your car. One thing is that the taillights of your newer model look like a Corvette's and compared with rest of the back body, it looks like a Corvette with a Saleen influenced body kit, sort of like the car displayed on this link to this car from "Car and Driver", http://www.caranddriver.com/xp/Caranddriver/comparisontests/2002/september/supercars/0209_sc_challenge_5th.xml , that was in the Super Car Challenge

In my opinion, the taillights of the older ZX-2000 looked better and more unique, but you should try applying more a sweep across affect like the RX-7, but keep the narrowness the same.

Another thing I could point out is you can always have normal exhaust positioned the same way as the large ones did, but make them large conventional exhaust pipes, like the ones Veilside makes would look cool.

Another blatant thing I want to state, which you can care less about, is that your super looks nice in all; and I could admit it is very hard to design a car that is aerodynamic and is appealing to people without sticking to the lines that the Maclaren, Lamborghini and Ferrari followed, but it looks in some ways bland and feelingless. You can at least add some feeling to it, such as adding some sort of snarl appearance like the Dodge Viper, Corvette or Saleen. You can also give it an industrial look like the Skyline GTR, GTR R35, Audi and/or Porsche. Or you can give it a slick appearance like the Supra, 3000GT, 350Z, or RX-7.

Features like these can be made very easily without huge aerodynamic repercussions such as enlarging, straightening or slightly changing in some way the front intake or other parts of the front. You can give slight adjustments to the back like if there is an upward motion, curved out or even some what flattened.

Sometimes a slight adjustment in the appearance can go a long way on how a car is projected in someone's mind. There is a reason why some people, more and more lately, would prefer to buy a Corvette, Viper, Supra, 3000GT, Skyline, or even Mustang, Comaro or 350Z, even if they have enough money to afford a Ferrari, Lamborghini or Meclaren F1, and it is not because of price or tuneability either.
;)

VAD0R

02-13-2003, 10:38 PM

I take partial back, your design does look good and appealing, but I would like to see some slight variations on styling, like the ones I stated in my last post. I am not just saying this for my satisfaction, you should try fiddling around just a tiny bit with variations in attitude and appeal. Who knows, you just might find something that may be more appealing to you than your current design. You know a supercar is not just about the ultimate performance and aerodynamics, even though that is a very large factor, just don’t let it consume you. :rolleyes:

PhantomDesign

02-13-2003, 10:40 PM

Ignore PARTS of this reply due to some accedental confusion!

I beleive it is extremlly nessecary to showcase the previous critique: very top-of-the-line critique.

Please "aguydude" read the previous post from "vador". Whether or not what he says is cpmpletly accurate or based on the correct facts, he does his best do describe the flaws, or areas that are lacking. Even if his critique was total crap, and he completely missed 95% of the car, I can atleast figure out exactly what he was lookign at, and what he didnt like, and those red flags whould have shown me areas of improvment...

O.K. In respnse to "Vador"

The ZX-1000 had taillights similar to the corvette, which is also similar to 100's of cars. The first that comes to mind is hte ferrari 360. My ZX-200 loghts are extremely different. Whered you find an old version of my ZX-2000 lights?

Please look at my updates that should be up by Saturday morning. I'd like you to re-critique the aspect of the car discussed (quoted below)

....oh, and thanks again for the most excelent critique, the last critique I got was useless....

Another blatant thing I want to state, which you can care less about, is that your super looks nice in all; and I could admit it is very hard to design a car that is aerodynamic and is appealing to people without sticking to the lines that the Maclaren, Lamborghini and Ferrari followed, but it looks in some ways bland and feelingless. You can at least add some feeling to it, such as adding some sort of snarl appearance like the Dodge Viper, Corvette or Saleen. You can also give it an industrial look like the Skyline GTR, GTR R35, Audi and/or Porsche. Or you can give it a slick appearance like the Supra, 3000GT, 350Z, or RX-7.

Features like these can be made very easily without huge aerodynamic repercussions such as enlarging, straightening or slightly changing in some way the front intake or other parts of the front. You can give slight adjustments to the back like if there is an upward motion, curved out or even some what flattened.

Sometimes a slight adjustment in the appearance can go a long way on how a car is projected in someone's mind. There is a reason why some people, more and more lately, would prefer to buy a Corvette, Viper, Supra, 3000GT, Skyline, or even Mustang, Comaro or 350Z, even if they have enough money to afford a Ferrari, Lamborghini or Meclaren F1, and it is not because of price or tuneability either.

aguydude

02-13-2003, 10:41 PM

Look phantom, I am not jealous. I admit that i totaly suck at 3d. I dont say that your car is crap, all i am doing is telling you on how it could be changed to make it better. I AM NOT TRYING TO DISCOURAGE YOU, but to say that it can be improved. I'm just saying that you are not the best one out there, but you can be if you keep on improving and maybe take a couple suggestions. Also, i dont believe you need a team of people to make a great design, check out this site http://www.3dcar.kg/2001_gallery/2001_concept01.htm , every one of these are made by 1 designer each. Hopefully this clears up your misunderstandings of my previous post.:D

PhantomDesign

02-13-2003, 10:43 PM

I've already seen that site.

For reql knowledge about 3D graphics, the sites to check our for other 3D graphics people are www.3dluvr.com adn www.3dcafe.com I know what I'm talking about when it comes to 3D graphics.

P.S. I wish they'd update that site.... It may be dead now.

aguydude

02-13-2003, 10:46 PM

I missed your post. Are you saying that my critiques were useless?

PhantomDesign

02-13-2003, 10:50 PM

Ignore this reply due to some accedental confusion!

oops...

aguydude

02-13-2003, 10:54 PM

what the hell?

PhantomDesign

02-13-2003, 10:54 PM

Ignore this reply due to some accedental confusion!

sorry...give me a minute... I got 2 people confused....

I'll clear stuff up in a second..after I cleasr stuff up in my head...CONFUSION!!!!

PhantomDesign

02-13-2003, 10:57 PM

Ignore this reply due to some accedental confusion!

I accadently got "boman" and "adude" confused.....

I'll try to clear things up a little more..

PhantomDesign

02-13-2003, 11:03 PM

I'm really sorry. I thought "adude" was "boman", adn continuing his previous critique saying I lacked all Creativity...

Oh, well....try to laugh..... :cwn27:

aguydude

02-13-2003, 11:06 PM

k...

PhantomDesign

02-13-2003, 11:11 PM

Your critque was valid "adude". In response, I'll just say the first part of the response was valid where I said 95% of all logos are complete crap, adn mine is in the top 99% of all logos, which means mine is ONLY in the top 20% of all good logos. There are billions of logos, we just usally overlook the 95% of horrifically bad ones.

Take a loog around your house for logos...how many of them are better (we arent including logos by car companies).

aguydude

02-13-2003, 11:17 PM

the closest logo i see it the Dell logo. I'd say it's pretty good..:D

PhantomDesign

02-13-2003, 11:19 PM

Yeah, you can expect computer and car logos to be good, but look at your refigeratir, or your stack of CDR's or your microwave or your calculator or any food in your house or the signs on some buisness street.

========================

Considering I invest little personal value into the logo...lets just forget taht logo ever existed. II jsut thought I'd show it becasue someone wanted to see one. Let's jsut leave that subject behind!!!

O.K. back to my car design....

aguydude

02-13-2003, 11:22 PM

I guess so. But i wouldnt say 99.5. Maybe 80. BTW what's your age?

PhantomDesign

02-13-2003, 11:24 PM

Just turned 20 years old.

The part where I was talking about age, I thought you and boman were th same person....so ignore that.

aguydude

02-13-2003, 11:27 PM

aight

aguydude

02-13-2003, 11:32 PM

take a guess at how old i am

PhantomDesign

02-13-2003, 11:35 PM

If U and boman were the same person, I'd guess 18-20, but now I have to guess 17-24. I seriously don't know.

aguydude

02-13-2003, 11:39 PM

you're like 9 years off.

PhantomDesign

02-13-2003, 11:41 PM

Not suprised... So about 14 years old?

Again, my lack of paying attention caused much confusion earlier and my comment about age in that long reply was invalid.

aguydude

02-13-2003, 11:41 PM

I turned 14 recently .:cool:

aguydude

02-13-2003, 11:43 PM

yeah, just edit your msg:p

VAD0R

02-14-2003, 12:04 AM

Looks like confusing ness was running ramped for a bit.

The picture I exemplified was this one:

I admit I did sort of breeze through it (because I got the spur of the moment to write my critique) and as I look at the one with round back lights, it does look more like a Ferrari 360. But you can admit the fact that you can see how it can look like a race design modified Corvette, especial the exhaust pipe look and positioning. But that does not take anything out of my critique.

As you can see the one on the left does have back lights that look remotely like a RX-7 3rd generation or above, but a bit narrower and more upward.

So I apologize for the confusion. But despite this I still hope you take my critique into thought and consideration. :)

VAD0R

02-14-2003, 12:06 AM

I guess my excuse is that is 12:50a.m where I am, and I'm terrible with posting attachments.

The picture I used is in this link: http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=84581&perpage=15&pagenumber=6

And it is the picture with the two black ZX-2000 with displaying two different alterations you did.

PhantomDesign

02-14-2003, 12:09 AM

Yeah, your critique was quite useful...or atleast thought provoking. I don't have anything prcatical that I can do to my car quite yet....but it'll take a little bit of fime.

Trust me I did take a good look at your critique and will take another look soon when I've got mroe time.

The confusion had nothing to do with you.
====================
..ohh..antoerh reply from you....
=======================
Donn't worry I stay awake untill 5:00 a.m. usually.

The closer car is my ZX-1000, adn the further is the ZX-2000.

Skid

02-14-2003, 12:15 AM

I like the design. who cares if someone says its a "McLaren" clone. if you haven't noticed, there are lots of McLaren clones out there already. why? because the design works. form follows function. great design skills, great 3d work. I hope someone out there takes notice in it :)

PhantomDesign

02-14-2003, 12:27 AM

I may use other shapes when my aerodynamic research is more complete...and I have more training. This is what my research lead me to, and the engineers at McLaren must have had similar research.

jkbon

02-14-2003, 08:58 AM

Yeah ! a good mix between a Mclaren F1 and a F50, a good 3D job :sun:

PhantomDesign

02-14-2003, 09:05 AM

It's not a mix...but thanks anyways.

FirebirdV8350ci

02-14-2003, 06:22 PM

I read, I thought, and I remembered. There was a guy like you PhantomDesigner who used to post Caddy's designs. I was just curious maybe it is you or you know him? If not I'll try to find that forum and give you link. Maybe it will help somehow. Great job overall! I don't like rear though. It is too ricey....Sorry. I think car that looks like this will be over 20000$ and I don't think people who buy cars over 20000$ will like rice-type look anywhere.

Admiring,
Valera

-Firebirds are for teens who can't afford Corvette.

PhantomDesign

02-14-2003, 06:27 PM

Originally posted by FirebirdV8350ci
I read, I thought, and I remembered. There was a guy like you PhantomDesigner who used to post Caddy's designs. I was just curious maybe it is you or you know him? If not I'll try to find that forum and give you link. Maybe it will help somehow. Great job overall! I don't like rear though. It is too ricey....Sorry. I think car that looks like this will be over 20000$ and I don't think people who buy cars over 20000$ will like rice-type look anywhere.

Admiring,
Valera

-Firebirds are for teens who can't afford Corvette.

Don't know him/am not him. I've only beed designign for about 9 months, and doing 3D graphics for 19 months.

Could you describe/give examples of what you mean by "ricey" I replaced that exhaust(which you'll be able to see later tonight)...if that is what you are refering to.
================================

Yes, updates are comming tonight. There are sort-of 2 versions. The difference between the 2 is only the spoiler and rims really, but I think it's enough of a difference.

All I have left to do is add some realisim to the lights....then I'm done. I'm going to try to do it before 1hout 20 min from now...so I can make soem pictures before I have to leave.

PhantomDesign

02-15-2003, 05:08 AM

Please go to the new thread....

http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=87148

...and would admin please lock this thread?

boman

02-15-2003, 01:23 PM

Originally posted by PhantomDesign
If U and boman were the same person, I'd guess 18-20, but now I have to guess 17-24. I seriously don't know.

Wow, I must have really angered you. I did appologise for being harsh.
It's great that you have so much ambition, I aplaud that. I ws just
stating MY opinion. When you showcase your work on a public
forum, people tend to state opinion. Sorry that you disagree with mine.

My age, if it will make you rest easy is 24.

j

pontiactrac

02-15-2003, 01:38 PM

Originally posted by boman

Wow, I must have really angered you. I did appologise for being harsh.
It's great that you have so much ambition, I aplaud that. I ws just
stating MY opinion. When you showcase your work on a public
forum, people tend to state opinion. Sorry that you disagree with mine.

My age, if it will make you rest easy is 24.

j

Everyone has a right to state their opinion, if any of you guys know me on this forum, you'd know i do it the most. Next time just give some reasoning or it just sounds like jeolousy.

FirebirdV8350ci

02-15-2003, 05:35 PM

To PhantomDesign:

By saying that rear looks ricey I meant:
1. Two huge exhaust tips which look like cheap civic modification.
2. The Airlogs on the sides.(near exhaust tips). They remind of a cheap modification on the sides of Import cars.
3. Absence of tailights. Were they shaven off?
4. Space between wheels is filled with air channels(or whats the name for them? I have no idea...sorry). Reminds of old-style bodykit.

Again this is a great work. I only tell you my opinion. D:/Valera - From 4.85 to 3.22GB/Jpg funny photo/Funny/phantom.bmp
With respect,
Valera

PhantomDesign

02-15-2003, 05:40 PM

Please go to new topic!!!!
Please go to new topic!!!!
Please go to new topic!!!!
Please go to new topic!!!!
Please go to new topic!!!!

http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=87148
http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=87148
http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=87148
http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=87148
http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=87148
http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=87148
http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=87148

FirebirdV8350ci

02-15-2003, 05:44 PM

By the way, i love the front!

Valera.

-Q: What's faster: a. 1996 Pontiac Firebird Formula Coupe
b. 1996 Chevrolet Camaro Z28 Coupe
c. 1996 Mustang GT Coupe
-A: You post it....If Iknew I wouldn't ask.

PhantomDesign

02-15-2003, 05:46 PM

Please go to new topic!!!! There are new pics there!!!!
Please go to new topic!!!! There are new pics there!!!!
Please go to new topic!!!! There are new pics there!!!!
Please go to new topic!!!! There are new pics there!!!!
Please go to new topic!!!! There are new pics there!!!!

http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=87148
http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=87148
http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=87148
http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=87148
http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=87148
http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=87148
http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=87148

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