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Roaring Noise When Driving - Can't figure it out???


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freesiagirl
07-28-2007, 12:30 PM
:screwy: Hi! I am new to this forum, and a new Metro owner. I purchased a 1994 4 Door Hatchback, 5 Speed with 92,000, just last week. It makes a roaring noise when driving, and sometimes a clicking noise when stopping, but not when turning the wheel. The previous owner had the right front bearing and left tie rod end changed. And replaced the transmission with a used one. He also put alloy wheels on it, tires are size P1965/50/R15. Would the bigger tires cause a problem? Also, would they lower my gas mileage?
The car also had a vibrating brake pedal. My hubby changed the front rotors and pedals, and the brake vibe is gone, but the noise is still there.
I took the car to an auto center, had them check it out. The tech said it needed a right front bearing, and possibly a rough spot on the axle. So they ordered the parts and I took it up there again this morning to be changed. But the tech that was there this morning, didn't change it. He said there was no play, so he didn't think it was the bearing. He put it up on the lift, and listened with a stethoscope and couldn't hear the noise from the bearing, but did hear noise from the transmission gear box. He said maybe the bearing in the trans were going bad, or low gear oil. The car shifts and drives fine, so is it possible that's it the trans? I am very frustrated, and just want to get this figured out, so that I can drive my cute little car. I would greatly appreciate any suggestions?!! Also, my gas mileage isn't too good. Around 30 mpg, whereas edmunds.com says that this car should get 46-49 mpg. A tuneup has already been done, so any suggestions there? THANKS!!! :-)

sbiddle
07-28-2007, 05:28 PM
Does the sound increase with speed? I have a Mazda 626 with a roaring problem. I'm 99% sure it's the tires. I have scalloping on the tires and this fall when I get snows put on I'll find out for sure. At low speed <40 mph, it isn't bad, but at about 60, it makes a lot of noise. I suggest you check the tires for flat spots.

91Caprice9c1
07-29-2007, 05:40 AM
...my gas mileage isn't too good. Around 30 mpg... The car shifts and drives fine, so is it possible that's it the trans?

Yes. I have had to swap at least two transaxles in my fleet because of a bearing going south somewhere in the tranny. It will make a very similar sound to a bad wheel bearing except it will get much louder. If neither front wheel bearing is making noise, or if the pitch of the grinding doesn't change when loading them up around left/right turns, it is almost definitely the transaxle.

-MechanicMatt

freesiagirl
07-29-2007, 12:23 PM
Thanks for the replys, please keep them coming! The roaring noise does increase with speed, but I have not noticed any change in the sound when making turns. If it's a bearing in the trans, is it possible to just change the bearing? Guess what?! My neighbor is a trans guy, I'll have to ask him to look at it. Also, forget to mention previously that the car had set parked for about 6 months previously, so I guess the flat tire thing is a possibility. Will rotate tires. They are new tires though..... Is there any fix for flat spots? Or just replacing tires? Thanks everyone!!!

91Caprice9c1
07-29-2007, 05:05 PM
No fix that I know of for flat spots. Have your neighbor look at if for you.. make him some cookies - I'd look at a transmission for some cookies for sure. Let us know what you figure out.

-MechanicMatt

freesiagirl
07-29-2007, 10:25 PM
Well, didn't get to talk to neighbor today. Something I forget to mention. The 2nd tech from Sears said that the noise wasn't heard outside the car, only inside. Could it be something with the transmission, even if it shifts and drives perfectly? What else could it be in that general vicinity? It isn't a constant noise, more like it's something circular, that's going around, and is only bad on one spot. The noise gets faster and louder the faster I go. Also, there's that click, click, click noise when I am stopping. Is it possible it could just be low on gear oil? Or possibly have the wrong gear oil? What about a bearing in the transmission? And if it's a bearing in the transmission, how hard is that to fix??? THANKS SO MUCH!!! I just LOVE this car and am trying to learn as much as possible. I hope to drive it a good long time....

BoostedMKIV
07-29-2007, 10:34 PM
This guy has a roaring in his car too:

http://www1.istockphoto.com/file_thumbview_approve/793997/2/istockphoto_793997_lion_car_alarm.jpg

:icon16:

91Caprice9c1
07-29-2007, 11:29 PM
Could it be something with the transmission, even if it shifts and drives perfectly?
Once again, yes.

What else could it be in that general vicinity?
A bad wheel bearing. Mind you, simply grabbing the wheel (with the car off the ground) and checking for play is not the only thing to do when check for a bad wheel bearing - IE the axle nut may be on too tight, which will destroy a bearing, but it wont appear loose. It could also be bad/loose front brakes.

It isn't a constant noise, more like it's something circular, that's going around, and is only bad on one spot. The noise gets faster and louder the faster I go. Also, there's that click, click, click noise when I am stopping.
Some axles for these cars (usually the passenger side because it is longer) will have a vibration dampener on them which is usually fitted in the middle of the axle shaft. I have seen these work loose from age and create strange noises.

Is it possible it could just be low on gear oil? Or possibly have the wrong gear oil? What about a bearing in the transmission? And if it's a bearing in the transmission, how hard is that to fix???
If it is low/wrong gear oil which has caused this problem, correcting the issue now will not fix the aftermath - IE bad bearing, binding gears. Not only that but low/incorrect gear oil, unlike a failed bearing, will cause excessive shift effort. A bad bearing in the transmission will most likely spell the end of that transmission, because it would be more cost effective to find a used one to replace it with, rather than tear into a transmission with a bad bearing to replace only the bearing, and whatever else has been worn-out by the resulting metal debris.

Get some more opinions. Find a mechanic you can talk to one-on-one, a small shop whose employees speak english fluently. If you aren't afraid to poke around yourself - put the front of the car on jack stands, and let the car idle in gear. Take a suitable length of wood and stop one tire with it so that it wont rotate. Go to the spinning wheel and listen for a sound which seems uncouth. Do the same for the opposing sides. This will isolate a failed wheel bearing hands down VS some half-wit Sears Tech trying to wobble the wheel around thinking that the only way a wheel bearing can fail is if it's too loose:rolleyes: If a grinding type sound is heard regardless of which wheel is spinning I would be very inclined to say that your transmisison should be replaced. As for your clicking, that may or may not be a seperate issue.

-MechanicMatt

freesiagirl
07-30-2007, 01:44 PM
Thanks! I will work on checking on those things suggested. Also, I forgot to mention previously, that part of the bushing on the front driver's side control arm is missing. I ordered a new control arm, which just came in today. Is it possible this has anything to do with my noise? :-)

91Caprice9c1
07-30-2007, 05:19 PM
Yeah actually. That most likely explains that clicking while stopping.

DELTAS69
08-06-2007, 09:19 PM
as for your bad gas milage..i'm surprised it will go very well with 15 inch tires on it..are you sure they are 15 inch? i can't see how they could fit under the car unless the suspension has been modified. a lot of us will swap to 13 inch wheels ..but IF it does indeed have 15" wheels..then the overall gearing is so high, it is eating up your milage. these came with 12 inch wheels on the car...at least my 92 2 door hatch has them...pretty sure the 94 four door did as well...i drive 300 miles per day and get mid 40's with the A/C ON AND RUNNING AT 60/65 MPH...get around 55 or so with out the A/C..ON THE STOCK 12 INCH WHEELS..i just had a drivers side wheel bearing replaced a few days ago..made the exact noise you have..turn right..no noise..turn left ..sounded like a cat in a blender..also have the same popping with a worn "A" frame bushing on the pass. side..

DOCTORBILL
08-06-2007, 09:56 PM
How can you have 15" tires !?

Is a 15" wheel made that fits a '94 Metro...!!!???

Are your wheels rubbing on some portion of the front wheel wells or back wheel wells..?
That would probably be smoking...

Bearings can make such a noise. Mine did - totally stopped once I changed them!

Does the noise change tone on high speed right or left curves on the road?

Put your head or have a passenger put his/her head out the window and listen.

Is the noise from the front or the rear of the car?

I'd have a mechanic drive it and listen - a mechanic would know what is going on.

Once he tells you, then come back here and tell us what he said before having anything
done - some shops really bullshit women and con the Hell out of them....

Is there OIL IN THE TRANSMISSION !? Does the Transmission run hot?

Do any of the wheels nuts (center of wheel) get HOT after driving?

Immediately after stopping, Go out and touch all four wheels near the
center - if it is so loud, maybe one or two are HOT.

I'd get that attended to before something seizes or burns up while you are driving!

DoctorBill

PS - I hope I am not full of crap - am I right guys?

freesiagirl
08-06-2007, 10:22 PM
I appreciate everyone's suggestions!! I am still working on this problem. My uncle rode in the car and thinks it has something to do with the tires. Yes, they are 15 inch tires. The tires say P1965/50/R15. My husband said something about the springs having clamps or something on them?? So, you guys are saying that the car had to be modified to fit the 15 inch tires? I like the alloy wheels, but I bought the car for the gas mileage. So, if the tires are hurting my gas mileage, then I need to go back to the original size. One good thing, there is a junk yard nearby, with a 92 Metro, I can see about buying the 12 inch wheels off of that one. How hard is it to switch back to the 12 inch wheels? I don't know what was done to the car to accomodate the 15 inch tires, and I need to make sure the car is SAFE! My kids ride in it with me. I am also going to take the car to another mechanic tomorrow and see what he suggests. But, yes, I will post on here before I have any work done. THANKS so much everyone!!!

DOCTORBILL
08-06-2007, 10:43 PM
I would look at the tires themselves!

Do they have worn lines that go around the tire - rubbing as they turn?
It would be very obvious!

Look on the inside of the tires facing toward the center of the car - you'll
have to bend down under the car and use a flashlight.

Front and back tires, both.

I understand that later year Metros switched to 13" tires....

Were I you, I'd switch to 13" tires - much much cheaper than 12" tires - I know,
I still buy those damned 12" tires and get "the business" about how rare they are!

13" tires are VERY CHEAP at Discount Tire.

The wheels should cost maybe $20 each used...no more!

Are the tires on there now winter snow tires with noisy tread..? Studded!?
Off road tires that would make hideous road noise?

Unless the rotors and studs have been changed by someone, you should be
able to find 13" wheels without too much difficulty.

I hope it all works out for you.

Just be careful of guys trying to con a woman - I hate that crap!
My wife and some of her women friends have gotten that rubbish from repair shops.....

Ask questions - be skeptical.

Ignorance is very expensive. I don't mean to insult, but when you don't know
is when you get conned by businesses.

DoctorBill

DELTAS69
08-06-2007, 10:50 PM
first thing i would do is get rid of those wheels and tires..sounds like some kid has monkeyed around with it at some time and somehow managed to put them on there..hopefully he didn't do anything permanant to the suspension that can't be rectified. second get a set of stock 12" wheels..and yes you may have problems finding 12" tires. wal mart used to carry them and some walmarts still have them in stock..but they are discontinuing them..when they are gone..no more. i bought a set of four from tirerack.com. about 130.00 including shipping to my door via ups. ojnce you have the correct wheels on there , then you can address the other noises. my guess is the large wheels have put undue stress on the bearings and that is the noise your hearing along with the tires rubbing the frame , fenders, and God knows what else under there..and it just dawned on me..where the hell did someone find four lug 15" wheels?? what kind of hubs may be lurking under there ? i'd sure like to see a pic of these wheels on your metro..

DELTAS69
08-06-2007, 10:58 PM
as an afterthought..on the 13 inch wheels..a lot of people do swap the 12's for the 13's..causes a minor difference in actual speed reference on the speedometer..but the lugs on the 12 inch are slightly smaller than the 13" lugs..care has to be used so the lug nuts do not pull through the holes on the 13" wheels..i considered getting 13's on my 92..but didn't decided on keeping the 12's...tire rack and i'm sure other sites have plenty available..basically 100.00 a set for four..plus the shipping..and i get mine mounted for free..so it's not that big of a deal..

freesiagirl
08-07-2007, 10:36 PM
OK. So, on with this dilemma.... My car says the original tire size is 145/80/12. So, I'm still gonna try and get those 12" wheels off of the car in the junkyard. Will it be just a swap? I mean, just take off the 15" wheels, and put on the 12" wheels??? Or are there other things that I need to adjust when changing back to the smaller wheel? I will also try and take a pic of my 15" wheels on my car. How do you post pics on this site? Thanks again!! :-)

DELTAS69
08-07-2007, 11:15 PM
the most confusing thing i see is this : i've been in the parts business a long time and i've NEVER seen 15 inch wheels with four lug nuts..the 12 inch wheels use four lug nuts..so if your 15 inch wheels have 5 or more lug nuts..no the 12" wheels won't work..a picture is worth more than a thousand words..if you could post one, it would help a great deal..if, in fact, your current wheels have 5 or more lug nuts...then you have more of a problem than simple wheel swap..

DOCTORBILL
08-07-2007, 11:19 PM
Well, you do realize that you ALSO have to go buy four 12" tires.....and have
them mounted on the 12" wheels?

Do you have a Wal-Mart nearby? They may have to order them in - may take
several days for them to arrive at the store.

Don't let the buggers tell you that they don't sell 12" tires - insist that they do -
they just have to look it up! I got that BS from dumb clerks -
ask for the manager if they tell you they don't sell 12" tires!

I posted the actual UPC number for Wal-Mart's 12 incher tires somewhere on
this Forum....

They sell the 12 inchers at the lowest price I have ever seen.

Keep the 15 tires! You may be able to use them on another car someday!
If not, you can sell them if they have good tread left on them.

DoctorBill

freesiagirl
08-08-2007, 08:05 AM
I've taken some pics of the wheels, but can't figure out how to post them on here. Anybody know how?

DOCTORBILL
08-08-2007, 10:09 AM
Go to

"How to Post pictures onto this Forum "

Which I just posted this morning.

Hope it helps you and others.

DoctorBill

freesiagirl
08-08-2007, 12:41 PM
Ok, Thanks for the info picture posting info. Let me see if I can get it to work.

If so, here is a pic of the car with the 15" Wheels:
http://img54.imageshack.us/img54/3407/p1080361wo3.jpg



A closeup of the wheel:
http://img54.imageshack.us/img54/3896/p1080362wo7.jpg



A closeup of the tire, showing size:
http://img54.imageshack.us/img54/319/p1080363ru7.jpg



A closeup of the spacer in the rear spring:
http://img54.imageshack.us/img54/1686/p1080368xw8.jpg




I'm thinking it can't be good having those spacers in.... Wouldn't that put extra strain on the suspension? Hopefully, I'm going to get those 12" wheels from the junkyard tomorrow. I found a place in town that has 155/80/12's in stock.

freesiagirl
08-08-2007, 01:02 PM
A couple more things I thought of. I believe that the car was a one owner, purchased last June, with just over 92K on it. The guy that I purchased it from only put about 500 miles on it. Last August, he put a used transmission in, and I think he was the one that put the 15" tires on it. The tires are practically new. Then he moved across country and the car sat for 6 months or more. So, hopefully, those big wheels haven't done too much damage yet......

DOCTORBILL
08-08-2007, 01:58 PM
Great! You got it! Nice looking Metro!

You posted "THUMBNAIL" which is fine...folks have to click on the image in order to
see it larger.

A couple suggestions to improve the photos....

When you click on UPLOAD in Imageshack, be sure to check the box labeled
"Remove size/resolution bar from thumbnail" - it should have a check in the box.

That stops it from putting those numbers under your posted photos.
You don't want that !

Since you posted Thumbnails, if you want the full size photos to appear right in your
post, use the IMG links right at the top of the window when you click on "i" in the
small windows with your photos. The one labeled "forums".

Be sure the "Full Size" box is not checked!

You can go back to Imageshack, delete the old photos and reload the same image,
put the check mark as stated above, then go back to your Forum post, click EDIT
and COPY OVER the previous links with the NEW Imageshack links - using the IMG link.

That should improve things greatly.

I think folks would like to see a closeup of the center of the big 15" wheels to see
what the hole pattern looks like.

Maybe a closeup of the Rotor hub with the studs sticking out with the wheel off.

To see what the previous owner has done to them....

DoctorBill

PS - what will you do if changing the wheels doesn't stop the 'roaring noise' ?

freesiagirl
08-08-2007, 03:07 PM
Thanks so much, DoctorBill!

Here is a closeup of the lugs. I think that was what was requested?
http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/8158/p1080369pc9.jpg

As for the wheel hub. I won't be able to get pics of that today. It's over 95 degrees outside, just TOO hot to be outside working.... But... when my hubby changed the front rotors and brakes, I do recall that the hub looked exactly like the pics in the Chilton's manual.....

DOCTORBILL
08-08-2007, 04:27 PM
You are doing great!

Much nicer types of Imageshack links.

The photos come up just the right size now!

I, being very ignorant of wheels, will now step back and wait for someone in the
know to answer how someone put 15" wheel rims on a 12" Rotor.

How the Hell was that done?

Who sells such rims - the Chinese?

Rims from the Galaxy Andromeda?

Did Luke Skywalker visit Earth and bring 15" rims from Tatooine ?

DoctorBill

freesiagirl
08-08-2007, 07:38 PM
OK, So I've been chatting with my brother. He says that the 15" tires shouldn't cause a problem. And that the Sears tech said that he heard the noise from the center of the car, near the gear box, when the car was on the lift, not driving. So, he really thinks that I'm possibly looking at a transmission rebuild.

Here's part of my brother's and my IM conversation about my car. :(he's in red, i'm in purple)
The sound is coming from the middle of the car.
Why did the tech at Sears hear the noise while on a lift and not moving??
The only thing moving is the wheels and there were off the ground and no pressure of the ground. If it were the tires the sound would have went away.
look at the pic of the spacer in the spring. you can't convince me that that isn't putting strain on other parts of the car.
and my speedometer and odometer are off. that means somethings not right.
what i'm saying is..... that regardless of whether or not the tires fix the noise. i still think i need to go back to original wheel size. it sounds like the bigger tires change the gear ratio in the trans, therefore putting more strain on it.
Only when you start out. Once you get moving the trans is actually having less straing because it doesn't have to turn over so many times.


SO, what do i do?? I already spent a bunch of money purchasing this car, to save money (ha ha ha)? I can't afford to just keep replacing this, and changing that, unnecessarily...
What is everyone's opinion on changing wheel size?

Icanfixit
08-08-2007, 09:03 PM
Sounds like your bro is very knowledgeable about cars. I would listen to what he has to say.
And your rotors aren't 12" . The wheels are twelve inch. When you look at the wheel size. Forget about the size of the wheel, what you need to worry about is the diameter of the tire. Reason being, you can have a 12" wheel with a lets say a 20" diameter tire. and you can also have a 15" wheel with a 20" diameter tire. The same thing just a bigger wheel. People tend to confuse this thought because of the difference in the wheel size.
As for the spacers, these are used to raise the car just a little bit. most likely aren't hurting anything.

DELTAS69
08-08-2007, 09:07 PM
in 30 years of parts..i've NEVER seen a 4 lug 15 inch wheel...til tonight...i'd love to know what that came off of..

Icanfixit
08-08-2007, 09:14 PM
in 30 years of parts..i've NEVER seen a 4 lug 15 inch wheel...til tonight...i'd love to know what that came off of..15inch 4 lug wheels have been around for years!! Look at the factory 73-93 Ford Mustang GT. 15 inch 4 lug wheels. The 87-93 had 16" 4 lug wheels
Shoot!! you can get 20" wheels in a 4 lug.
Toyota, Honda, Nissan, just about all manufacturers put 15" wheels on the 4 lug cars. I have seen 17" wheels factory 4 lug wheels. So they are out there in abundance.

DELTAS69
08-08-2007, 10:15 PM
well..i guess is need to come out of the cave more often..just never paid any attention to see them..looks like they are more abundent than i realized..:screwy:

DOCTORBILL
08-09-2007, 12:55 AM
Well - OK - so where are we....?

Now everyone thinks the tires and wheels ARE NOT the cause.

If you haven't purchased either wheels or tires YET - then you are not in bad
shape.

If the car made the "roaring noise" while up on the lift - were the front wheels
free to rotate? - then it probably is not the tires.

It then HAS TO BE the Transmission - no?!

Didn't I read that the previous owner had changed the transmission?
Did he screw it up?
Was it the correct transmission?
Is the oil in the transmission the proper weight? 80w-90 or whatever?
Maybe he put 30 weight oil in it...!

If I thought it was the transmission, I would put the front end up on jack stands,
take the wheels off the front end and start it up, put it in gear and listen.

Maybe I'd change the Transmission Oil and see if it has ground up metal in it or
if it is burned.

Just make sure the car CANNOT MOVE while on the jack stands (Chock the rear
wheels REALLY WELL!).

You can have the hood up and have someone listen.

This couldn't be the constant velocity joints could it...?

Really - it is rather absurd for us to be diagnosing problems on a car we can't
see or hear!

If this is a Five Speed on a 3 cylinder, I understand that the Transmission is
not all that hard to change. Probably weights less than 100 lbs.

Is your brother good at car fixing......................

A 5 speed Geo Metro Transmission costs $60 at my local Pull-n-Save. You
pull it out.... there are a lot of such transmissions available.

You could order one from a reputable wrecking yard and they usually
guarantee them for 60 days or so. Not that that helps much if it is bad, then
you have to take it out and take it back....fun.

This is the problem of buying used cars....you buy someone else's problem(s).

If the car was cheap - well, maybe another $400 is needed to get it working well.

You can expect at least 45 mpg out of it when it is fixed. That ain't bad folks!

$3 a gallon and going up!

If you change to 12" tires, your speedometer should read right.

And Damn! It is a nice looking Metro! I wish my '93 was a white four door!
Cool in the summer sun.

DoctorBill

freesiagirl
08-09-2007, 01:05 PM
Well..... My hubby and I have decided to try and get those 12's from the junkyard anyway. I am not a big fan of modifications, and I don't like that my speedometer and odometer are off. I realize that it may not fix anything as far as my noise, but.... I just want too...

I have been driving the car around the last couple of days. And a few things that I'm noticing.... When I get up to speeds of 45 mph and higher, the steering wheel vibrates quite a bit, almost the whole car vibrates actually, because I can even see the rearview mirror vibrating. Is this vibration normal in these cars??? Or is this possibly a symptom of my problem???

My hubby is going to go ahead and change the transmission oil or gear oil, whatever it's called. What is the proper brand, and weight, etc... for this car????

I don't know what constant velocity joints are... I will have to look that up in the book...

Thanks everyone for your help. :-):runaround: Oh, and thanks for the compliment on my car!! I really LOVE it too!!! I guess I'm METRO MOM now!!! ha ha

freesiagirl
08-09-2007, 01:12 PM
Ok, another question.... Could it be the axles? Maybe one is warped or something? And don't they tie in at the center of the car where the trans is? And how would I check the axles?

Icanfixit
08-09-2007, 09:38 PM
I have been driving the car around the last couple of days. And a few things that I'm noticing.... When I get up to speeds of 45 mph and higher, the steering wheel vibrates quite a bit, almost the whole car vibrates actually, because I can even see the rearview mirror vibrating. Is this vibration normal in these cars??? Or is this possibly a symptom of my problem???
Now with this being said, it is very possible that the tires are out of kilter. This would also lead me to check the wheel bearings.
It 's is possible to have a warped wheel but that wouldn't cause a roaring noise.

freesiagirl
08-09-2007, 09:44 PM
Thanks! I didn't get to the junk yard today. My mom had car problems, so we needed to go help her. So, first thing in the morning, we are heading over there. Once we switch the tires, I'll post back here and let everyone know what the results are. THANKS!!!!

91Caprice9c1
08-09-2007, 10:50 PM
I feel very strongly now that you have narrowed this down to either a wheel bearing(s) or a self-destructive transmission.

Put the front of the car on jack stands, and let the car idle in gear. Take a suitable length of wood and stop one tire with it so that it wont rotate. Go to the spinning wheel and listen for a sound which seems uncouth. Do the same for the opposite side.

The above instruction will isolate a bad wheeling (or two) or tell you if your transmission is to suspect. A grinding noise will either be clearly heard at one wheel, both wheels, or at the the transmission by getting underneath the car (on jack stands please) and listening with a screwdriver between the transmission and an ear. Your husband, who has done a brake job on the car, is perfectly capable of this. Again, I feel very strongly that by doing this simple procedure you will know what your problem is, AND THEN take the car to the shop for repairs.

I agree with the previous post, that one or more of your tires probably have some degree of runout, causing the vibration at speed.

-MechanicMatt

DOCTORBILL
08-10-2007, 09:52 AM
If you have not done so - go buy a Chilton or Hayne's Manual for this car!

Absolute necessity!

They are about $20 at any Shuck's or NAPA parts store.

My Chilton says (p 1-39) to use 80W-90 Gear Oil in the Transmission.
Valvoline comes in pointy 1 quart squirt bottles. Buy 2 quarts. About $8/qt.

Very - very thick!.

Drive the Metro to heat up and mix up the Transmish oil, then when you drain
the Transmish oil, do it into a very clean container and when done, pour it out
slowly into a second container and examine the bottom for metal shavings or powder.

The vibration while driving IS NOT GOOD!

Hopefully, the vibration will go away once you change the tires....if not - problems!

I still think the jacking up and placing good strong JACK STANDS will tell you
a lot. Take the front wheels off. Just make sure the vehicle CANNOT MOVE!

Start the engine, put it in gear and let the clutch out. Listen by each rotor hub and by the transmission.

Here is just a suggestion only....

Do you have a good tape recorder? I had a noise and I recorded it and uploaded it onto an "Audio Host Site"
and folks here listened to it.

Just do a good job recording (a quiet day) and get the mic up close to each
part. Describe what you are recording as you record. Record maybe 15 seconds at each place.

Maybe someone here can "diagnose" the sound (noise)....(?)

DoctorBill

freesiagirl
08-10-2007, 01:22 PM
Well, my hubby is working on changing out those 12" wheels as I type.... He painted them first, as they had a lot of surface rust, and were very UGLY!! So, when he gets those on, and I can test drive, I'll post back with the updates.

freesiagirl
08-10-2007, 09:20 PM
OK. Here's the latest. My hubby installed the 12's. I like them much better.
The car is much easier to get started in first gear. With the 15's, I was having trouble when I had the air on, I would "kill it" sometimes in first gear. Now, with the 12's, it's much easier, even with the air on.
Also, the steering seems tighter. Like I'm just hugging the ground closer...
Of course, the noise is still there. My dad is in from out of state this weekend, so, of course, I asked him to take a ride in my car, and listen. He first said that it was a rotational noise.... Then, he said it sounded like some kind of rubber. He felt strongly it wasn't the transmission, or bearings. He thinks CV Joints.

And, If I understand correctly, there are outside and inside (4, total??). So, if it is the CV Joint that joins into the transmission, that could explain also, why the sound seems to be coming from the center, not the wheels. So, what does everyone think?

91Caprice9c1
08-11-2007, 06:00 AM
Even with all that is involved with changing the tires; jacking, placing on stands, etc.. you still have not done what I have suggested TWICE now? Or are you keeping the results from us? Well the sears tech thinks this, and your dad thinks that, Great! Is your problem solved yet? Oh, no... you're still here.

Do CV joints make noise when they go bad? Yes! They Do! Typically a clickity-clackety noise around sharp turns with acceleration that is unmistakable - they SELDOM make other noises. Have you had your husband look at the axles to see that the vibration dampener in the center of the passenger side axle (if it ever was there) is properly affixed?

Look - You are asking a group of people to assist you with diagnosing your problem. Now if you don't do what I ask you to do, I cannot help you because when you don't do what I ask you to, I DONT GET INFORMATION which is what we need here... INFORMATION, something to go on.. Your car is not in my stall for me to look at - so I need YOU (your husband) to do the looking for me. Get it? "My dad thinks it's blah..." doesn't help any of us who are trying to help you, and No, what you have described does NOT sound like a CV axle gone bad.

So, what do you think?

-MechanicMatt

freesiagirl
08-11-2007, 09:46 AM
I'm really sorry. I haven't been able to convince my husband to try that test. He said that he has been told that it is bad to stop one wheel. So, unless I can convince him otherwise, he's not willing to try that.
He was going to try and check the gear oil yesterday, as that was something that someone suggested, but he couldn't find the fill plug. Where is that? I have the Chilton's manaul, which says the back side of the transaxle, but there is no picture, showing the location.
I appreciate everyone's help very, very much, but understand that you are limited to what help you can offer. :-)

freesiagirl
08-11-2007, 09:49 AM
I will have him look for the vibration dampener. Previously, I didn't know where that would be located. Again, I'm sorry for bothering everyone so much. :-(

Syndrome Zed
08-11-2007, 03:42 PM
I'm really sorry. I haven't been able to convince my husband to try that test. He said that he has been told that it is bad to stop one wheel. So, unless I can convince him otherwise, he's not willing to try that.
He was going to try and check the gear oil yesterday, as that was something that someone suggested, but he couldn't find the fill plug. Where is that? I have the Chilton's manaul, which says the back side of the transaxle, but there is no picture, showing the location.
I appreciate everyone's help very, very much, but understand that you are limited to what help you can offer. :-)
I hate to be the "tough love" one, but tell your husband he's a :loser: and he needs to do the test. You have a mechanic, a real mechanic, telling you what to do, and Mr. Knowitall thinks it's a bad idea. I had a friend tell me about a mechanic friend of his who cleaned the internal workings of engines by spraying water into the engine while it was running. Naturally, I thought he was a :dupe:. But a quick look here and on another Metro-related forum helped me discover what water injection systems were, and how they can help an engine run better. I didn't let my own self-importance get in the way of assuming I didn't know everything, and neither should your husband. If he was right about everything, including everything he'd been told, he'd already know what the problem was and have fixed it. Therefore, he doesn't know everything about what's going on. Well, now there's someone who at least knows what to test for. Ask your husband why what "he heard" before should be any more true than what "he's hearing" now, first. Then point out that it's only his own bias and prejudice that's making him think that just because he heard something that might make some sense to him a long time ago, it must be right. And if that doesn't work, call him an idiot and tell him you don't want to have to spend hundreds of dollars taking the car to a professional mechanic just so he can do the same test that Matt is saying to do. If he REALLY thinks it's a bad idea, tell him to call a couple other mechanics and ask them if the test is safe.

Hell, I've driven my poor car with a cracked piston skirt and no rings on one piston for 800 miles, and with what might have been the equivalent of a blown head gasket for about 10 minutes. The car came through ok, although I wouldn't recommend doing either of those again just to test it out. The point though, is that these cars are not fragile, even if they are a little small. They can take easily take having one wheel stopped for a second or two, or probably more, without doing damage.

Oh, and remind your husband that when you hit an icy patch on the road, one wheel is very likely spinning a whole lot faster than the other - and your car doesn't suffer for that part of it. Now, if you slide off the road and hit a tree, that's different. runaround But that too shows that one wheel can spin independently of the other at least for short times without causing any damage.

I hope this doesn't sound TOO harsh. I have a lot of respect for anyone who is willing to put the time and effort in to fix their own problems. But I have nothing but scorn for anyone too stubborn or stupid enough to realize they need help, then refuse to accept that help when it's offered. :banghead: But there are 3 good reasons up there to do the test - if nothing else, maybe you can print this out and just hand it to him. Then if I call him an ass for being so recalcitrant about doing a simple test, you won't have to relay it. ;)

hot_sd
08-11-2007, 05:02 PM
I also decided to comment on this one. The transmission has an open differential - nothing will happen to it if you hold one wheel stationary. The spider gears in the diff will walk around the driveshaft being held and this will cause the other driveshaft to spin. Nothing in the diff or the trans will be stressed by doing this.

The same thing kind of happens when the car is in a turn - to a lesser extent - one wheel spins slower than the other - this is exactly why the diff it there.

Now if you clamp both wheels that's a differnet story.

I'm a believer in getting an understading of how something works before working on it. That way the problem is resolved in a logical manner rather than by guesswork or feeling this is not good etc....

freesiagirl
08-11-2007, 09:38 PM
I would have appreciated the advice without the insults to my husband. How am I supposed to know if someone posting on this site is a mechanic, or if they are a good mechanic? I have to take each person's advice and judge whether or not I should trust it.
My husband is a wonderful person. I have had terrible health issues the past year, and he works overtime to try and pay my medical bills, while also having to do way more than his share at home. I didn't post to this site to be judged or insulted. Thanks to everyone who has taken out time to help me and offer advice. I do appreciate their patience in dealing with my lack of knowlege of cars.

91Caprice9c1
08-11-2007, 10:43 PM
Okay. First of all, Syndrome zed, hot sd - thank you.

Freesiagirl - I'm sorry. I am not here to pass judgement on anybody per se. And on behalf of everyone else, I haven't encountered anyone in the metro forum who is a mean person and we as a community are here to share information, and I have learned a lot here despite my professional training. Also, I apologise for making my temper apparent on the forum, however, I think now we may get you further to your goal of solving this problem because of it.

Stopping one wheel will not cause damage to your transaxle (the noun appropriate for describing your type of transmission) I assure you. I look after 22 geo metros to make my living. I am quite familiar with these cars.

The ASE logo in my signature stands for Automotive Service Excellence and is a national association that gives credentials to automotive professionals who pass their tests as a benchmark of quality for the industry. I am certified in Engine repair, brakes, electrical and engine performance.

Now that we have an understanding and are past this block, I think that we will quickly get to the bottom of your roaring when you post back here with the results of my recommended procedure. Again, you are looking for a noise that is concentrated on one wheel, or a noise that remains present regardless of which wheel is spinning. Goodluck!

-MechanicMatt

Metro Mighty Mouse
08-12-2007, 05:03 AM
just a quick note on larger wheels, it's called plus sizing and is done all the time for better looks and better handling. In your case the diameter of the tire was larger than the original tire diameter making your speedometer off. The 50 in the tire size indicates the sidewall height as a percentage of the tire width. A "50 series" tire has a much shorter sidewall than a 70 or 80 series. This gives you better looks and better handling (stiffer sidwall not as much flexing) but a harsher ride. I believe the spacers were put in because the tires were a larger diameter and when the suspension bottomed out the wheel well was hitting the wheel. There should be no problems running this set up except harder steering and harsher ride. If you like the 12 inch wheels and tires better more power to ya. If I wasn't absolutely destitue, I'd be trying to convince you to sell those rims to me.

Good luck!!

freesiagirl
08-12-2007, 12:24 PM
OK. My hubby is working 12 hour shifts the next few days, so it will be several days before he gets to try that procedure. I will post back when I have results.

91Caprice9c1
08-13-2007, 12:50 AM
Good, I'm keeping my eye out on this post. And some quite valid info from mighty mouse.

freesiagirl
08-13-2007, 01:46 PM
On with the drama...
My hubby didn't get to look at the car. But, I took it back to Sear's. I drove it on the road with the Manager, then she drove it on the road with the same tech from last time (the one that thinks it's not the wheel bearings, but the trans bearing). He still thinks it the trans bearing.
She had him put it on the lift and showed me that there was no play in the wheels, and they spin freely. By the way, the noise is definitely in the front, seemingly the passenger side.
Then he put it in gear and had me listen. Here's the thing, though. You can't hear the noise then. When I'm driving it, I don't really hear it until I'm up to about 20-25 MPH. Then I have that rubbing/clicking noise when I'm slowing down, stopping. (that noise may be something different entirely). When he had the car in gear, the front passenger tire was spinning freely, but the driver's side was barely moving. He said that is because the tire with the least resistance moves faster. But, the driver's tire was hardly moving AT ALL! Is that normal? So, anyway, he held a stethoscope up to the passenger tire, under the car, on the inside, and I heard like a rotational scraping sound. Then he held it up to the trans, where the axles tie in, and there was loud noise, but to me it was a constant noise, more like the engine running. He kept saying that my noise was louder near the trans, but like I said I didn't hear THAT noise at the trans.
So, anyway, I'm thinking that If I can't hear the noise with the car on lifts, then it's not going to do me any good to do that test where I stop one wheel at a time? What do you think? Also, I feel sure that it's on the front passenger side, but WHAT is still the question? Should I just go ahead and have that wheel bearing changed anyway? Or is it possible that it could be my axle going into the trans?

freesiagirl
08-13-2007, 03:34 PM
Also, when driving straight, the car makes the rotational roaring, moaning noise. When turning left, it gets louder, when turning right, it's slightly quieter, but doesn't go away.

freesiagirl
08-13-2007, 05:07 PM
PS- If anyone is wondering why I went back to Sears in the first place.... Well, I actually started out going to a different Sears. I just took the car there, said that it was making a noise, to see what they would come up with... But, the tech there said that my brakes were messed up. So, I went back to the other Sears, who had done my back brakes, and asked to talk to the manager.
Also, one thing... the manager told me that they had once had a Geo Metro come in for almost a complete overhaul, tires, brakes, etc.... and it was probably the most difficult car they've ever worked on. I'm wondering if I'm getting the run around because they just don't want to work on it.

freesiagirl
08-13-2007, 05:10 PM
If I end up having to go to a dealer to get this figured out, would a Chevrolet or Suzuki dealer be better? Or does anybody know if FREE SERVICE is any good?

freesiagirl
08-13-2007, 06:08 PM
I found this Suzuki website. This guy's noise sounds exactly like mine, and it didn't seem like wheel bearings, but that fixed it. Here's what he said:

"the noise I am talking about doesn't happen with the wheels off the ground.
I am trying to diagnose an odd sound that is most definitely per wheel rotation. I see no way that it could be wheel bearings because it's a sound that is in the beat of each rotation. As if something was stuck to part of the tire and each time I run over it, it creates a sound. So as I speed up it speeds up. I don't see anything on the tires and even if there was, it would have to be so thin that it doesn't cause any vibrations.

Now if it was a wheel bearing, I would imagine the sound would be a fairly constant humm/buzz and not a "beat" type sound. Another note, as hard as I try to shake the wheels by hand (engine off of course), the wheels are solid and don't move. (they rotate of course)." His post can be read at : http://www.teamswift.net/viewtopic.php?t=26041&view=next
He said that changing his wheel bearings fixed the noise....

Syndrome Zed
08-13-2007, 06:29 PM
PS- If anyone is wondering why I went back to Sears in the first place.... Well, I actually started out going to a different Sears. I just took the car there, said that it was making a noise, to see what they would come up with... But, the tech there said that my brakes were messed up. So, I went back to the other Sears, who had done my back brakes, and asked to talk to the manager.
Also, one thing... the manager told me that they had once had a Geo Metro come in for almost a complete overhaul, tires, brakes, etc.... and it was probably the most difficult car they've ever worked on. I'm wondering if I'm getting the run around because they just don't want to work on it.

First, no one was trying to insult your husband - or at least, speaking for myself, I wasn't. I'm sure he's a nice guy like you said. But understand, it's very frustrating to try and help someone when it seems like they don't actually want to be helped. Most of what I said was also pointing out that I've been guilty of being pigheaded in the past and that I learned just how much I didn't really know. Like in the Dune books, one group of characters had the motto "The only thing I know is that I know nothing". That's pretty much where I was coming from - that that's the right attitude sometimes.

Anyway...I'm definitely no suspension expert. My qualifications are helping some random guy at the auto wrecker's yard yank a sway bar and tie rod from an old IROC Camaro for $20. :) But if you have one wheel spinning freely and another barely able to spin, I'd say it's either the differential or the bearing in the dysfunctional wheel. Matt will have much more useful advice, I'm sure.

Now, when you get to internal ENGINE noises, fluids, and things going bump in the night (or the block), then I can be more helpful. :cwm27:

freesiagirl
08-13-2007, 07:28 PM
Thanks, Syndrome Zed! I do appreciate everyone's input very much. It's just that I'm the one going on this forum, and then trying to give my hubby an earful :runaround: here and there when he has a free minute to spare, to tell him what I've learned. I'm sorry that this has been frustrating for some of you guys on here who are trying to help me. Again, THANK YOU, each and every one who has taken time out of their day to try and help me figure out this problem.!!! :grinyes: I do appreciate it, and I'll try not to be so sensitive. :uhoh:

Syndrome Zed
08-14-2007, 12:07 PM
Thanks, Syndrome Zed! I do appreciate everyone's input very much. It's just that I'm the one going on this forum, and then trying to give my hubby an earful runaround here and there when he has a free minute to spare, to tell him what I've learned. I'm sorry that this has been frustrating for some of you guys on here who are trying to help me. Again, THANK YOU, each and every one who has taken time out of their day to try and help me figure out this problem.!!! :grinyes: I do appreciate it, and I'll try not to be so sensitive. :uhoh:

Well, I'm sure with the help you get here, it'll be up and running normally soon. These guys helped me rebuild the bottom half of my engine last year - something I'd never even tried before. And just to add to the "fun" :screwy:, I was using sick time at work to get the job done, so I had only a few days. Call it beginner's luck, but it worked perfectly after all that. And I definitely couldn't have done it without their help.

I'm surprised the mechanic thought the Metro was a hard car to work on. With a few annoying exceptions - the fact that they use Phillips' Head screws which are easy to strip in a few places, the placement of the fuel filter - this car's been much easier to work on than my old 73 Ford Maverick. As much as I like a big engine, it has to fit in the car too. :rofl:

91Caprice9c1
08-15-2007, 12:40 AM
It simply doesn't get any more 'bread and butter' than a brake job on a metro:rolleyes:. The fact that "its one of the most difficult cars" they've ever done brakes on - only confirms my previous suspicion that the good ol' Sears tech is useless.

Anyhow...

That you mentioned the noise getting louder when turning left and quiter turning right is generally cause for suspecting a bad passenger side wheel bearing. As the bad bearing will get louder as weight is increased upon it and quieter as weight is decreased.

What would have been keenly astute of you at Sears is to have had the 'tech' stop the passenger tire by hand, or similarly to how I instructed you, with perhaps a suitable length of wood with the car just off the ground on the hoist, to see if any audible stuff changed.

Now, we know that when a bad wheel bearing is unloaded (without the weight of the vehicle on it) it is going to be quieter. This is not so with the transmission because the bearings in it are "preloaded," meaning they have a measured amount of force on them at all times. Granted the force required to pull the vehicle with it on the ground will make them *a bit* louder, the point is a failed trans bearing will be loud no matter what, and regardless of which wheel is spinning.

So back to the wheel bearings. On the lift, a failed wheel bearing will be more quiet, but still quite identifiable. Wouldn't it have been something if stopping the passenger side tire in the air would have eliminated the noise? Hmm. It is natural for the passenger side tire to spin faster off the ground because of the geometry of the axles - the passenger side being longer, is at less of an angle, and thus is easier to spin if you ask the differential.

You have a bad passenger side wheel bearing. It is not the transmission - and even if it were, I sure as hell wouldn't advise taking it to that sears guy. A guy struggling with a brake job shouldnt attempt swaping transmissions, even in a metro.

The thing is - even though I'm STILL going on INCOMPLETE information because you refuse to do what I've asked, your symptoms just do not add up to a tranny. A bad tranny will NOT get louder/quieter around turns. Wheel bearings do JUST that.

Have the passenger side wheel bearing replaced by somebody who can do it (don't trust the sears guy). Improperly torquing the axle shaft nut will destroy the bearing. Funny thing is, these people still don't understand that a failed wheel bearing doesn't have to make the wheel flop around - it can indeed be very rigid which was probably the problem in the first place - TOO TIGHT ON THE AXLE NUT. So find a mechanic with some credentials, someone you can talk to and feel you can trust, like interviewing a boy for your daughter to date or something. Get it done, and come back here and tell us your happy ending.

-MechanicMatt

freesiagirl
08-15-2007, 09:38 PM
Thanks!! Well, the first time that my husband will be able to do that wheel stopping trick, is tomorrow. I had just thought that it wouldn't be a problem to try a different Sears, for another opinion, in the meantime..... Dumb and impatient, of me, I know. :nono: :uhoh:
I am feeling almost 100% certain now, that it's the wheel bearing anyway. My hubby and brother are going to go ahead and change those out, or at least attempt too, tomorrow or Friday. My hubby has changed lots of bearings in other cars, but the Metro seems to be more complicated than most. The Chilton's manual says that the correct torque for the axle nut is 190, is that correct? And what is the torque for the lug nuts?
THANK YOU SO MUCH for your kind assistance, even though I have been difficult and impatient!!! sorry about that.
I will post back when the bearings on changed, and post the progress.

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