'95 APV power window problem

I posted in this forum back in Jan. of 2007 with a problem regarding my power windows in my 1995 Chevy Lumina APV. My original post can be seen at the link below.

http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=659210&highlight=lydokane


Here is a diary of events. At first the only problem was the passenger window would go down but it wouldn't always go up. The motor was very sluggish and it would only roll up a little then you had to let it sit for several minutes then try it again. If somebody 'sandwiched' the glass between the palms of their hands and pulled up while I hit the button to raise the window you could get it up in one try. Obviously the motor is going to need to be replaced. The driver side window never had a problem.

We were limping along through last summer and into late fall like this. Then one day I was out and when I came home and parked the car I rolled up the windows and everything was fine. The next day I had to drive the car and the windows would not roll down. Neither side works. There are no other electrical problems. All lights, gauges, devices work.

Here is what I have done today. I used the pictures provided to me by LMP from my previous post back in January. I found the 'convience center' and rotated the 30A fuses. Still no windows. I tested each of the 30A fuses with a multimeter and they are all good. I rotated them again making sure they are properly seated. Still no windows. I tested each fuse in the main fuse panel. They are all good. I pulled the driver side door panel off and disconnected the plug from the switch. I tried to jump the plug and couldn't get any window to roll down.

What could be causing the windows to fail. I don't know of any other fuses or connections to test. What should I try now?

Thanks,

Lydokane

I would investigate the driver door window switch. THis one has been a culprit in several similar instances. To bypass the switch, you have to bypass both the +12V AND the ground also. Having a tester to take some voltage measurements from the contacts to the switch would be an asset....Test if you acatually have +12V on contact D.
Some problems have been linked to the grounding point of the return conductor. Test a separate ground wire tied from point B to a solid body or engine ground. While 12V is fed separately directly to passenger window switch, the ground return always passes through the driver door switch

I would investigate the driver door window switch. THis one has been a culprit in several similar instances. To bypass the switch, you have to bypass both the +12V AND the ground also. Having a tester to take some voltage measurements from the contacts to the switch would be an asset....Test if you acatually have +12V on contact D.
Some problems have been linked to the grounding point of the return conductor. Test a separate ground wire tied from point B to a solid body or engine ground. While 12V is fed separately directly to passenger window switch, the ground return always passes through the driver door switch

I do have 12V @ contact 'D' (13.1V actually). I tested it after I started this thread. I have not yet checked the grounding point of the return conductor. I will try to find time to do that today and post back with my results.

Thank you for your help.

Lydokane

Ok, I know know that it is the ground. I ran a wire from the ground point (marked 'B' on the wiring harness) to a grounding point under the hood and I could get the driver side window to roll up and down. I could not get the passenger side window to move though.

According to the schematic, the ground on the passenger side and the ground on the driver side connect at some point and then ground to the body. I am guessing that the ground point has become loose. Can somebody tell me where the actual physical ground point is for the windows on the '95 chevy lumina APV? I followed the wiring rig from the switch through the door and then it comes into the van under the dashboard but I get lost under the dash.

Thanks,

Lydokane

.... the ground on the passenger side and the ground on the driver side connect at some point and then ground to the body.
No. There is only one ground point and it is from the driver switch. Ground shown on passenger switch is just for the lamp. Passenger switch is fed with a separate +12V though.
http://www.avigex.ca/xport/pwrwindows1.jpg
Ground return from the passenger switch is routed to and through driver switch by the same wires that make the window go up and down when acted on from the driver switch: (tan wire and dk blue/white ) depending if going up or down, one wire is the +12V and the other is the ground return that passes through the driver switch to point B then to ground..
Passenger window down from passenger side switch: www.avigex.ca/xport/PWDPS.JPG
Passenger window down from driver side switch: www.avigex.ca/xport/PWDDS.JPG

When using the passenger switch, 12V is already fed independently on point D, and ground is again routed by same wires (tan wire and dk blue/white ) to the driver switch and ground.
With your alternate ground installed, does it make a difference if you try to run the passenger window from the driver or from the passenger switch?

With your alternate ground installed, does it make a difference if you try to run the passenger window from the driver or from the passenger switch?


Thank you LMP for continuing to monitor this thread.

When I hooked up my alternate ground I could NOT get the passenger side window to roll down with EITHER switch. Would the root of my problems be in the passenger side motor as mentioned in the beginning of this thread?
Where should I go from here?

Thanks,

PR

Well yes the motor can be a culprit .
try to run the motor by feeding +12V and ground direct to the motor connecetor, with +12V on B and a ground wire on A. THis will clear the motor issue. If it runs, then wiring and switches themselves will remain the subject of investigation.
The overload safety device (the curved path) that is part of the motor has been proven a culprit in the past....so if motor does not run, I'd certainly try to work my way in to bypass (short both ends) the safety device.....

I just went thru the same problem with my apv. I also had trouble finding the problem until a friend told me to check the ground lead. I found were the wire runs thru the black rubber tube in the door that the ground wire had broke in half.All I had to do was install a butt conector and it was up and running. Good Luck!

You can test the window motor by hooking direct to the motor with 12 volt and swaping the positive and negative,oneway will run the window up and the other will run the window down. This will let you know if your window motor is good.

I'm hopeful someone is still monitoring this thread. I've been through many of these steps trying to solve similar problems, and want to ensure I have pin-pointed the correct faulty part.

My symptoms:

- Passenger-side window will roll up with either the driver or passenger side switch, but only for a few seconds, then quits. I wait a while, and then the switch works again. (I hooked up +12V and ground directly to the motor - and it does the same thing, so I suspect it's the overload mechanism, in the motor, that LMP is talking about)

- Driver-side window will not roll up period, with the switch, however I just replaced the switch with a used one - same symptoms. I can apply power directly to this motor and the window will roll up and down OK.

I've double-checked all breakers and swapped them around, looked for broken wires in the rubber boots on both sides and can find no breaks. It acts like a ground problem? But I cannot find severed wires or broken connections.

So 2 questions

(1) is it possible that this overload mechanism in the passenger-side motor, could cause the driver-side window to be completely inoperable? One ground apparently connects everything... that just doesn't sound right to me that it could cause problems with the driver-side window?

(2) LMP talks about bypassing this overload mechanism in the motor... how does one do that?

Thanks for any responses.

- Driver-side window will not roll up period, with the switch, however I just replaced the switch with a used one - same symptoms. I can apply power directly to this motor and the window will roll up and down OK.

(2) LMP talks about bypassing this overload mechanism in the motor... how does one do that?

Thanks for any responses.

OK - so it was indeed the switch on the driver-side. I just had forgotten to re-connect the power at the window motor after testing...whoops.

So now - only question 2 above remains - because I still have the problem on the passenger-side motor. And the answer is probably 'replace the motor', but if I can bypass this overload mechanism?

... I still have the problem on the passenger-side motor. .. can I bypass this overload mechanism?
Bypassing the safety device is a "theoretical" suggestion, as I have not gone there... and sometimes this heat activated device is imbedded into the wiring itself..but usually the actual connections are outside the wiring, but inside the motor casing . However make sure all of the mechanism is working "freely", use lubricant if necessary...so as to be sure to correct the cause, instead of the effect....

Bypassing the safety device is a "theoretical" suggestion, as I have not gone there... and sometimes this heat activated device is imbedded into the wiring itself..but usually the actual connections are outside the wiring, but inside the motor casing . However make sure all of the mechanism is working "freely", use lubricant if necessary...so as to be sure to correct the cause, instead of the effect....

Thanks for your response LMP - I will re-lubricate all contact points. I went ahead and ordered new motors for both sides too - cheap off ebay, and what the heck they're 13 years old. Can't hurt.

I'll post back the results.

Thought I should post my results back.

So - I had two problems. (1) was the driver-side power window switch - $12 off eBay. (2) Passenger side window motor was toast.

I had to pull the motor and regulator, and when I did - noticed that the roller assembly (part of the regulator which actually rolls on the window slide) had cracked pieces of plastic in the roller. I found a new regulator at the local salvage yard - but moral of the story here is you might as well buy a new motor and regulator at the same time - because it's also a pain to drill out the rivets connecting them together anyway. The motor and regulator will be easier to install as a whole unit.

Anyway - sometimes more than one gremlin can cause further guesswork.

Wow, great advice people! My symptoms: passenger side always had some stripped gear issue, you could get it to go up and down with assistance. Drivers side slowed down and eventually stopped all together, simultaneously with the passenger side.

Well, the broken ground wire was found in the wire boot between the driver side door and the chassis! Nice going! I was back up to tired driver side and skipping passenger windows, but figured the driver's side needed a new motor, so I just ordered one. Since the gears on the old driver motor seem OK I might try and put them on the passenger motor and fix that side with a single motor replacement.

I used a chisel and the claws of a hammer to remove the 5 rivets holding the motor and regulator assembly, removal was not that hard. Will see about replacement later.

Anyway, the feedback, wiring diagrams, and so on were great assistance. Thanks!