91 park ave. no start..


greatAEorion
01-05-2007, 07:09 PM
after returning from a 3 week vacation I came home to find my 91 pa won't start. the engine cranks strong but does not fire up. the fuel pump kicks on for a few seconds like it is supposed to. but when i pull wire off of plug and insert screwdriver to check for spark when crank no spark, also i tried to check for voltage and no voltage was recorded. also when i first open up the
hood there was a great deal of condensation on all engine surfaces which i left hood up a while to help aparent moisture evaperate. any suggestions????

troublesomenissan
01-05-2007, 07:23 PM
How old is your battery?

greatAEorion
01-05-2007, 07:30 PM
bought in 2004

troublesomenissan
01-05-2007, 07:35 PM
have you checked the coil packs

greatAEorion
01-06-2007, 04:56 PM
no i have not, how would i go about checking the coils? a resistence or continuity check??

Bassasasin
01-07-2007, 11:11 AM
First a bad coil pack would only effect 2 cylinders.. not all of them.

Lack of ignition,
* Source voltage to Ignition module (under coilpack)
Relay may be involved or ignition switch
* Bad ignition module (wet?? could be)
* Bad CRANKshaft sensor



You need to see if your getting voltage to the Ignition module. If so then check to see if you have any codes

HELP on moisture evaporate??? WD 40... spray it around it was developed by NASA for just that purpose. We used to use it in drowned or moistureized distributors. Your ignition module is usually sealed but if its cracked it may be wet.

Good Luck

HotZ28
01-07-2007, 06:22 PM
WD-40 literally stands for Water Displacement, 40th attempt. That is the name straight out of the lab book used by the chemist who developed WD-40 back in 1953. The chemist, Norm Larsen, was attempting to concoct a formula to prevent corrosion -- a task which is done by displacing water. Norm's persistence paid off when he perfected the formula on his 40th try.
Now, don't you feel better knowing that?:smokin:

troublesomenissan
01-08-2007, 05:34 PM
Does your car have 3 coil packs. Because I had a buick that did the same thing and it could be more than 1 coil pack, also could be a distributor

wrightz28
01-09-2007, 10:00 AM
Does your car have 3 coil packs. Because I had a buick that did the same thing and it could be more than 1 coil pack, also could be a distributor

Eh, after '85 distributors were extinct to the 3.8.

To clarify the coils, the standard DIS (distributorless ignition system) uses a ICm with 3 seperate coils to firs 2 cylinders each, one with a used spark, and one with a waste spark.

The other is a Magnovox coil pack on the ICM, where all three coils are integrated into one complete assembly.

Bassasasin
01-09-2007, 10:11 AM
To clarify the coils, the standard DIS (distributorless ignition system) uses a ICm with 3 seperate coils to firs 2 cylinders each, one with a used spark, and one with a waste spark.


Just of note.. on "Waste spark"... I thought enginers determined the resistance to the compressed cylinder has the least resistance at that time and when the coil fires it takes the path of least resistance.

But Im open for correction. :popcorn:


Bass

wrightz28
01-09-2007, 12:47 PM
I do believe we're both right, true electricity, spark in this case, takes the path of least resistance, but yet, both sides of the coil are fired at the same time.

greatAEorion
01-09-2007, 05:28 PM
just as a update I checked resistence on all three coil packs and all tested at 11.8 k ohms. also i got the car to start but runs very ruff as if it lost a few cyliders. and when initially the rpms kick down after cold start will stall out unless i keep rpms at 1100 or higher. the ignition module looks solid outside just the normal dirt and grime from engine bay..

HotZ28
01-09-2007, 08:38 PM
just as a update I checked resistence on all three coil packs and all tested at 11.8 k ohms. Do you have the Magnavox or Delco (3 coils on top) system?


Just of note.. on "Waste spark"... I thought enginers determined the resistance to the compressed cylinder has the least resistance at that time and when the coil fires it takes the path of least resistance. But Im open for correction.
Bass I do believe we're both right, true electricity, spark in this case, takes the path of least resistance, but yet, both sides of the coil are fired at the same time.
I will make an attempt to clarify how how the DIS "waste spark" system works.:uhoh:

Multi-coil DIS systems, use the "waste spark" system where each coil fires a pair of spark plugs (cylinders) that are opposite one another in the firing order. The following example applies to the 6-cylinder engine with a 1-6-5-4-3-2 firing order. The first coil fires cylinder 1 & 4, the second coil fires 2 & 5 and the third coil fires 3 & 6. What this means is, one cylinder on its compression stroke, fires simultaneously with its opposing cylinder on the exhaust stroke. Since the cylinder on the exhaust stroke requires very little of the available voltage to fire its plug due to the easy ionization of the hot exhaust gases, most of the available voltage is used to fire the cylinder that is on the compression stroke.:cwm27:

greatAEorion
01-09-2007, 10:35 PM
I have the magnavox intergrated coil system

HotZ28
01-10-2007, 09:28 AM
The specs for resistance are:
Magnavox ignition:
Primary (ohms) = 0.5-0.8 (ohms)
Secondary = (k-ohm) 9.0-12.0

Take the ICM/coil pack assembly off the car and place it in an oven @ 120 deg for several hours. Clean the wiring terminal with contact cleaner and lubricate with dielectric grease. Note: The Magnavox system was sensitive to moisture and when it becomes saturated, it is nearly impossible to dry out on it’s own!

FYI: Somthing else to consider.:uhoh:

GM TSB 88-6E-18.
Some vehicles may experience an intermittent no-start condition (“Cranks But Won’t Run”), due to an intermittent electrical connection between DIS module and crankshaft sensor. The no-start is most likely to occur when the engine is cold . Examination of their warranty material has shown that the connection problem was being improperly diagnosed as a DIS module condition, resulting in repeated come-backs and customer dissatisfaction. Because the integrity of the connection between the module and crankshaft sensor is provided by the terminal design, replacing the DIS module will not provide a lasting fix for the intermittent condition.

wrightz28
01-10-2007, 10:03 AM
Wasn't there also a wiring TSB to re-route the crank&cam wires away form the water pump and hoses because they were too close? Not sure when that all started.

And Bo, I know you sat up all night trying to come up with that waste spark explanation :lol2: well put tho. :thumbsup:

greatAEorion
01-10-2007, 10:07 AM
thanks for the heads up I'll try that

HotZ28
01-10-2007, 10:27 AM
And Bo, I know you sat up all night trying to come up with that waste spark explanation :lol2: well put tho. :thumbsup: Actually, a few Budweiser’s helped me remember all that! Once my mind is clear, all kind of things come back to my memory! :werd: :rofl::rofl::lol::lol:

wrightz28
01-10-2007, 10:34 AM
Heard that. :cheers:

greatAEorion
01-11-2007, 02:18 PM
I went and put the coil and icm in the oven for 2 hours and let cool then today i put all together and she started up with no problem and stay running.
thanks for the advice!! which means only one thing, test drive to the store for case of bud!!:cheers:

wrightz28
01-11-2007, 02:26 PM
mmm mm mmm, fresh baked ignition. ;lol2:

HotZ28
01-11-2007, 07:26 PM
I went and put the coil and icm in the oven for 2 hours and let cool then today i put all together and she started up with no problem and stay running.
thanks for the advice!! which means only one thing, test drive to the store for case of bud!!:cheers:
Thanks for the update. Be sure to let us know how the test-drive to the store went and do not ‘pop a top’ until you are in a safe place, even if the car does run good!:headshake After you consume that case of Bud, with the ‘gusto of a hound dog’, you may want to consider an upgrade to the Delco ICM/coil system! Here (http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=558838&highlight=magnavox+ignition) is a good thread on that subject.

BTW, never tell a mechanic or dealer about my oven trick, first they will tell you it will not work, and then they will go out and purchase an oven and start drying out ICM’s and then charge the customer for a new unit! :disappoin


Anyway, glad to here she is running on all 6 again. “I love it when a plan comes together”, even it does require some oven baking!:devil:
:cheers::popcorn:

wrightz28
01-12-2007, 09:59 AM
BTW, never tell a mechanic or dealer about my oven trick, first they will tell you it will not work, and then they will go out and purchase an oven and start drying out ICM’s and then charge the customer for a new unit! :disappoin

I pitty the fool who steal the idea, sucka!

Haha, yeah that's about the same as a fix for Passkey I learned and even a few here have said it's a crock, but the car I tried it on, has not experienced a problem since it was done in June :dunno:

Oh and i'll take my ICM without nuts please, allergic.

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