Considering buying VR4. Questions.

I was looking at this car. It seems to be a little over priced, but it's just an asking price of $8,900 http://www.wheeldeals.com/details.php?eqvehicleid=12686555&eqdealerid=150477

I have a 96gsx (sig) that has been fun, but I'm thinking its about time to move on to something else. I don't plan on getting rid of my DSM, I just don't feel like working on it any more. I have a few questions about these things.. I spent a good couple hours on your FAQ and website links. I found out most of the information I was looking for, but just had a few brush up questions I has hoping someone could answer for me.

The MAF seem to be identical to the 2g sensor, which is cool because I have a couple extra MAF's, FIPK's and Aircharger filters in the garage. But my main question is; since they have the same MAF, has anyone used, or heard of someone using the ever so popular GM MAFT tuning device for the 2g DSM's?

Is doesn't look possible, but has anyone taken a DSM TDO5h 14b, 16g exhaust housing off, modified the the stock TD04-09B exhaust housing and successfully mated the two together to fit onto the stealth manifold?

I noticed the fuel cut section of the stelth316.com site. In the DSM fuel cut is initiated when 2.55g/rev airflow is reached. I understand fully decel fuel cut, and rev limiter, because I have DSMlink, but has anyone definitively discovered the actual g/rev fuel cut in vr4's?

Does anyone possess/willing to share the fuel enrichment and timing maps of the 1st gen stealth 316's? I'm interested in peak timing and fuel enrichment variables. 2g DSM's peak at +55% stoch above 4500rpm when 2.1g/rev is reached and peak of 16deg advance timing above the same airflow value. I'm just curious. Do different generations of 316's have different timing curves? Do any 1st gen 316's come with eprom ecu's that will allow from PROM chip burning, making it able to create my own timing, enrichment, 3-step rev limiter?

Are their any true weaknesses/disadvantages in owning aside from the 2bolt engine and different body lines? I know the 93 seems to have everything + OBDI. I might hold out for one if it's really worth the weight..

Thanks for reading, please comment.. Scott..

Lot's of questions. Lemme see if I can answer most. First off, they arne't called 316s, they are called 3Ses, (3 for 3000gt, S for stealth). His site is called stealth316, becuase his block is bored to 3.16L I believe.

That price is a bit high. Nice mileage, but overall, I think it would need to be in excellent mint condition otherwise I'd try and bring it down a grand, maybe even 2 if the condition was only average. Also make sure it had hte 60k tuneup done.

Pretty sure the MAS are the same between the 3S and the DSM, but I have no idea what DSM guys have tried, you might have to ask them.

As far as TD05 turbos, yes plenty of people are running them, but you either need a set of adapter plates or TD05 headers, etc. Which makes them a bit more expensive to run, then sticking with the TD04s. Granted, the power is worth the money, and plenty of people are running them.

Fuel cut...I'm sure people have hit it, I personally havn't on this car. And don't honestly have the numbers off the top of my head.

Fuel and timing maps...well if you get a datalogger you can monitor them, if you get a piggyback like a Greddy Emanage, you can alter them. I'm pretty sure the timing curves stayed hte same all years. None of these cars come with ECUs that can be linked/controlled like DSM link. They are hardwritten, you either need to run piggybacks to fool the ECU, or replace it with a standalone like AEM EMS.

Important differences/weaknesses: Most are listed in teh FAQ, such as the new crank and forged internals. A positive of the first gens, is the ability to datalog for knock. That is a huge advantage when timing. 2nd gens have to tune via wideband 02s, fuel pressure, and watching for the ECU to pull timing, etc. It's just more involved. FIrst gens had a weaker transfer case, which can be destroyed with hard launches....but recently alot of new products have come out to fix that. 6spds have more of a problem with the bellhousings...although I would still say that's less of a problem than the 1st gen t-cases. Basically, I personally consider the 93 the year to aim for...best of both worlds IMO.

I was looking at this car. It seems to be a little over priced, but it's just an asking price of $8,900 http://www.wheeldeals.com/details.php?eqvehicleid=12686555&eqdealerid=150477
nice car, low miles. however, the price seems a tad bit high for a 91. i would check KBB (http://www.kbb.com), Nada guides (http://www.nadaguides.com), and Edmunds (http://www.edmunds.com) for a good idea on used car appraisal prices.

I have a 96gsx (sig) that has been fun, but I'm thinking its about time to move on to something else. I don't plan on getting rid of my DSM, I just don't feel like working on it any more. I have a few questions about these things.. I spent a good couple hours on your FAQ and website links. I found out most of the information I was looking for, but just had a few brush up questions I has hoping someone could answer for me.

The MAF seem to be identical to the 2g sensor, which is cool because I have a couple extra MAF's, FIPK's and Aircharger filters in the garage. But my main question is; since they have the same MAF, has anyone used, or heard of someone using the ever so popular GM MAFT tuning device for the 2g DSM's?
yes, many people have used the MAF-Translator along with a GM MAF for tuning. however the MAF isn't much of a restriction until your pushing 500awhp.

Is doesn't look possible, but has anyone taken a DSM TDO5h 14b, 16g exhaust housing off, modified the the stock TD04-09B exhaust housing and successfully mated the two together to fit onto the stealth manifold?
td05 14bs have been put on 3000GT/Stealths before. however, to mount the exhaust housing, you must either have adapter plates (don't make them anymore, but can be made by a handy welder), or some td05 headers that many 3S performance shops make and sell. not hard to find by any means.

I noticed the fuel cut section of the stelth316.com site. In the DSM fuel cut is initiated when 2.55g/rev airflow is reached. I understand fully decel fuel cut, and rev limiter, because I have DSMlink, but has anyone definitively discovered the actual g/rev fuel cut in vr4's?
good question. i'm sure someone knows the answer, but most don't pursue it that much. rather, when one reaches fuel cut (or before one WOULD), he should upgrade his supporting mods (injectors, fuel pump(s), hotwire fuel pump, adj. FPR, etc).

Does anyone possess/willing to share the fuel enrichment and timing maps of the 1st gen stealth 316's? I'm interested in peak timing and fuel enrichment variables. 2g DSM's peak at +55% stoch above 4500rpm when 2.1g/rev is reached and peak of 16deg advance timing above the same airflow value. I'm just curious. Do different generations of 316's have different timing curves? Do any 1st gen 316's come with eprom ecu's that will allow from PROM chip burning, making it able to create my own timing, enrichment, 3-step rev limiter?
first of all, our cars are referred to as a "3S" because it is a 3000GT/Stealth (same car underneath, just diff body style on outside, both made by mitsubishi). the website name Stealth316 refers to a guy who rebuilt his motor and bored it out to 3.1L and 6 cylinders, or more correctly 31 cu. in. in each of 6 cylinders. hence the 316. but that aside, we call these cars "3S's".

as for the timing/ignition maps, we haven't fully decoded the stock ECU. i know its an outcry, but the 3S ecu was a little more complicated (don't have the resources the DSM community has) than the DSM ecu's. however, there is a really good thread on www.3si.org/forum/ about timing maps partially decoded. what i can tell you is that the ecu has only 3 different timing maps (compared to the 5 of the DSM, i believe), and the ECU chooses which map to use based on load, rpm, airflow, temp, etc, etc.

but NO, the 3S does not come with an eprom ecu. your best bet for timing manipulation is the Greddy E-manage Ultimate or the full out AEM EMS. i know the AEM will allow you to add a 2-step rev limiter, and i think the Greddy will as well. never heard of a 3-step. could you tell me more about that?

Are their any true weaknesses/disadvantages in owning aside from the 2bolt engine and different body lines? I know the 93 seems to have everything + OBDI. I might hold out for one if it's really worth the weight..
the 2-bolt isn't really a weakness. many 2-bolts have been pushed beyond 500hp, a few to 700hp with no problems. no 2-bolt car (91-92) has ever blown up b/c of its 2-bolt girdle.

datalogging is only available on 91-95 cars. however, as you noticed, 91-93 are OBDI which is very nice. 94-95 year have a hybrid OBD system, which requires a special datalogger (only one person makes it), but datalogging is perfectly possible. from 96+, OBDII, the ecu cannot be tapped into.

only weakness is the transfer case on 91-93 cars. it tends to break once your pushing around 400-500awhp. but most people break these transfer cases by launching the car really hard. its a no brainer, if you abuse your car, it will break, but i'm sure you know that. however, the transfer cases are on a safety recall, so a dealership should/will replace it if you ever have any problems. more details on this if you search for it. 94+ received a 6 spd manual, also, the transfer case on the 94+ cars are very beefy and don't break. MOST exciting is the recent breakthrough that 2 people have done: they designed and manufactured beefier transfer case front housings for the 91-93 transfer case. along with this upgraded transfer case part and pre-loading the transfer case, you can launch you car as hard as you want and as many times as you want without fear of it breaking.

Thanks for reading, please comment.. Scott..


answered your questions in bold. i'm sure others will chime in with some more differences between the 3S cars, but most are stated in the FAQ which you read. i can't think of any more significant weaknesses. since you've owned a DSM (high powered, it seems), i'm sure you will find your way around these cars in no time.

welcome to the 3S section of AF!

Thanks for the replies.

I was wondering about the price because I know things are only worth what people are willing to pay from them, but I don't know much about the demand, desire for these cars. I actually sell cars for a living, so I've done my research on "book values".

The reason I asked about the MAFT is because I have one that I'm only using from venting my bov, I have Dsmlink for my tunning/fuel needs. The new MAFT that came out last summer is far superior in every way from the older ones, including wideband tracking, speed density, +/-60% injector compensation with digital read out. I know the MAF is very capable of reading well into to 50lb/min airflow and even into the 3000hz before reaching it's limit, I was mostly curious about the compatibility. The new Gen2 MAFT allows you to use the 2g MAF now..

I don't know if I'm explaining myself well or If I don't understand your answer. In regard to the the mounting of tdo5h turbos, or any other DSM Mitsubishi turbo. Can you just take the V-clamp off the turbo, and take the exhaust side of the turbo off exposing the exducer wheel and put a factory 6cm S3 hotside on and bolt them to the stock manifold? I'm aware of the mounting flanges, and turbo header options. Have you heard of anyone doing this? Basicly taking the turbo apart, and replacing the hotside with the stock s3's so it will fit?

DSM's have alot more timing maps then 5. They are all rpm/g.rev based, I have the information on my laptop in an excel spreadsheet. As far as fuel cut is concerned, it might be a different term used with your cars then my current DSM. the term fuel cut in the DSM world refers to an airflow value seen by the ecu so when the wastegate fails shit wont brake. It has nothing to do with the fuel system, it just cuts fuel delivery based on a "fail-safe" value in the ecu once reached. Upgrading the fuel system, including rewiring the fuel pump for maintaning 13volts, installing a walbro, aeromotive afpr, 550cc, 6an fuel line (all in which I have) is important for a leanier fuel delivery but has nothing to do with "airflow cut". Are we talking about the same things? I've read all about the fuel restrictions of these S3's. I'd just take my current setup and move to my new car and return my dsm to stock fuel system.

3-step rev limiter is a 2-step with NLTS. You have the 1st step, which is the studderbox, 2nd step is adjustable rev limiter, and NLTS used when shifting. It works with the speed sensor and clutch switch. It would take a long time to explain. I post an exlination a few weeks ago in the DSM section. http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=645337&highlight=NLTS

It's to bad the S3's didn't come with an eprom ecu, manipulating the MAF hz signal has it's weaknesses, besides I have a cip burner and hex decoder. Thanks for answering my questions.. I have to go deliver a new Santa Fe, so I'll be back with more in a little while..

Ps.. Sorry about the spelling, no time to spell check..

Is it common for the need to use ARP head studs? diffrent then OEM head gaskets to get deeper into the 11's? Are cams popular for these cars? I looked on ebay, their isn't alot available for these things. Aside from a downpipe, brakes, lowering springs. No big deal. I have a spare 28x10x3in FMIC I could just have a friend bend some pipes on his mandrel.

Should I wait for a 93? If it was your money?

If it were my money, i'd wait for hte car I want. Especially, if you feel (which I do) that the one you are considering is a tad overpriced. ARP studs are kinda up in the air right now, some use them, some swear by stock. Decent thread on the topic here (http://www.3si.org/forum/showthread.php?t=349286&highlight=arp+studs). Generally ebay parts for these cars (as with most others) are a complete hit or miss. Unless you get a great deal on a used part on ebay, most are cheap knockoffs. Although some do swear by the ebay downpipes...I havn't had one, so I dunno.

A few of the 3S shops such as dynamic racing and 3sx, have cams, don't think you will have much luck finding them on ebay though. Links are in the FAQ.

The aftermarket is small in comparison to alot of cars like DSMs, however, the platform has really made huge advancments in the past year, and we are expecting it to continue. More nad more is becoming available each year. It's sad that it took this long, but late is better htan never.

Agreed, I personaly think they are a significantly over looked vehical with huge potentual. Thats why I'm considering one. Mandrel bent stainless steel is, well, mandrel bent stainless steel. It's all the same. I have a cheap ebay 3in downpipe on my eclipse that needed a significant amount of fabrication to get it to mate upto the o2 housing and cat-back. But even with the troubles I still ended up with a 3in turbo back for 1/2 the cost of a "stamped" over priced name brand exhaust.

Thanks for taking the time to reply. I'm going to spend the next few day reading through some of the s3 forums, sites, and companys that provide aftermarket support.. Happy boosting!