old model kits manufacturers
Katsura
11-21-2006, 10:36 AM
Hi, has anyone have any comments on the many model kits makers that had fallen over the years?
Talking with some HK friends, they have really high regards for a few of the makers, such as Rosso, I wonder what happened to all these companies' molds?
Anyone heard of Union, Nitto, Nichimo, Rosso etc?
The 80's and early 90's seem to be the golden era of model kits with a lot of companies making stuff, sometimes the same model from diff makers, so builders had great choice.
Talking with some HK friends, they have really high regards for a few of the makers, such as Rosso, I wonder what happened to all these companies' molds?
Anyone heard of Union, Nitto, Nichimo, Rosso etc?
The 80's and early 90's seem to be the golden era of model kits with a lot of companies making stuff, sometimes the same model from diff makers, so builders had great choice.
Khier
11-23-2006, 12:55 PM
Rosso was established by former Fujimi employees. They made a couple of nice kits but to my taste they were not unique in anything. I mean they were not highly detailed, not cheaper, did not deal with outstanding subjects,...etc...etc... Therefore, it was not difficult to guess that they would not last long. However, I have to admit I do not know why exactly did they close.
Icon Modeler
11-23-2006, 01:22 PM
This is an easy one. Computer Games and the need of todays youth for instant gradification means less new model builders and thus the economics of producing plastic models isn't as profitable as it once was. So the smaller companies have no chioce but to disapier because of declining sales.
Icon Modeler
Icon Modeler
drunken monkey
11-23-2006, 01:46 PM
rosso: factory fire, couldn't recover.
Khier
11-23-2006, 03:18 PM
This is an easy one. Computer Games and the need of todays youth for instant gradification means less new model builders and thus the economics of producing plastic models isn't as profitable as it once was. So the smaller companies have no chioce but to disapier because of declining sales.
Icon Modeler
But how would you explain the boom in metal models? I think there is a shift of modelers' interests rather than the lack of jonior modelers, which is also true.
Icon Modeler
But how would you explain the boom in metal models? I think there is a shift of modelers' interests rather than the lack of jonior modelers, which is also true.
hirofkd
11-23-2006, 06:49 PM
Do you mean finished toys or diecast kits? Model builders prefer kits, because finished models don't give you the joy of building, so if you're talking about finished diecasts, their primary target are collectors and car enthusiasts, but not model builders. If you mean diecast kits, then most of them share parts with finished counterparts, so it's a cost-cutting measure.
rosso: factory fire, couldn't recover. There's more to it than meets the eye.
rosso: factory fire, couldn't recover. There's more to it than meets the eye.
Icon Modeler
11-23-2006, 07:49 PM
But how would you explain the boom in metal models? I think there is a shift of modelers' interests rather than the lack of jonior modelers, which is also true.
Like Hirofkd above, I'm not sure what you mean by "metal model". If you are talking about "Muiltimedia Models" that is to say models that are made up of metal, resin etc. Then I would offer this. I've been modeling for over 30 years. I started when I was 5 yrs. old. I build only race cars and then predominatly Tamiya. With Tamiya's inability to porduce a kit of any interest (for me) for over 2 years now I've been forced to look elsewere for my fix. Muiltimedia kits saticfy my need for something new and challenging. I can only imagin that they do the same for many others.
Icon Modeler
Like Hirofkd above, I'm not sure what you mean by "metal model". If you are talking about "Muiltimedia Models" that is to say models that are made up of metal, resin etc. Then I would offer this. I've been modeling for over 30 years. I started when I was 5 yrs. old. I build only race cars and then predominatly Tamiya. With Tamiya's inability to porduce a kit of any interest (for me) for over 2 years now I've been forced to look elsewere for my fix. Muiltimedia kits saticfy my need for something new and challenging. I can only imagin that they do the same for many others.
Icon Modeler
Taiphun
11-23-2006, 08:30 PM
Didn't Pocher succumb to the "factory fire" theory too?
Khier
11-24-2006, 03:19 AM
Like Hirofkd above, ......
Icon Modeler
No, I mean die cast models, both kits and finished. There is a rapid expansion in this sector met by shrinkage in plastic kit world. Although I am a hardcore fan of plastic kits in scale 1/25 and larger, I am afraid I will be forced to turn my attention to the metal (die cast) models to have the models I like to have instead of being limited to 911 and Ferrari kits duplicated by 10 manufacturers. Just look how many Ferrari models were duplicated recently by FUJIMI and Revell, and how many 240 ZG available (well, I love the duplication of this one). At the same time there is not a single European or Japanese (except a couple by Fujimi) classic car came ovcer the past few years. Anyway, it is useless to repeat the debate since we discussed this issue several times in other occasions.
Icon Modeler
No, I mean die cast models, both kits and finished. There is a rapid expansion in this sector met by shrinkage in plastic kit world. Although I am a hardcore fan of plastic kits in scale 1/25 and larger, I am afraid I will be forced to turn my attention to the metal (die cast) models to have the models I like to have instead of being limited to 911 and Ferrari kits duplicated by 10 manufacturers. Just look how many Ferrari models were duplicated recently by FUJIMI and Revell, and how many 240 ZG available (well, I love the duplication of this one). At the same time there is not a single European or Japanese (except a couple by Fujimi) classic car came ovcer the past few years. Anyway, it is useless to repeat the debate since we discussed this issue several times in other occasions.
rsxse240
11-24-2006, 09:24 AM
"why the explosion of diecast?"
answer: Video Games. kids don't want to build something, they want it spoon fed. why should they get a plastic kit that will take 2 weeks to build into what they want, when they can just buy it, then they can ACTUALLY PLAY WITH IT!!!
my son is 9, and I've tried to instill my impression on how diecast is "LAZY" and he seems to agree, but the models he builds, he wants to play with, consequently destroying them. he's getting better, plus I had to get him a few diecasts for that reason, to respect HIS work, and destroy the mass produced junk!
recently my son had his video games, and television taken from him (until further notice) and he started building his models again. since then, his grades have improved, his attitude towards his teacher, and others has improved, he reads books, and his speach has dramatically improved. he is also alot more focused on the task at hand. I think I'll let him have his games back, but only for an hour or two each day.
sorry to have changed the subject, I just got off on a rant.
answer: Video Games. kids don't want to build something, they want it spoon fed. why should they get a plastic kit that will take 2 weeks to build into what they want, when they can just buy it, then they can ACTUALLY PLAY WITH IT!!!
my son is 9, and I've tried to instill my impression on how diecast is "LAZY" and he seems to agree, but the models he builds, he wants to play with, consequently destroying them. he's getting better, plus I had to get him a few diecasts for that reason, to respect HIS work, and destroy the mass produced junk!
recently my son had his video games, and television taken from him (until further notice) and he started building his models again. since then, his grades have improved, his attitude towards his teacher, and others has improved, he reads books, and his speach has dramatically improved. he is also alot more focused on the task at hand. I think I'll let him have his games back, but only for an hour or two each day.
sorry to have changed the subject, I just got off on a rant.
Icon Modeler
11-24-2006, 01:04 PM
"why the explosion of diecast?"
answer: Video Games. kids don't want to build something, they want it spoon fed. why should they get a plastic kit that will take 2 weeks to build into what they want, when they can just buy it, then they can ACTUALLY PLAY WITH IT!!!
my son is 9, and I've tried to instill my impression on how diecast is "LAZY" and he seems to agree, but the models he builds, he wants to play with, consequently destroying them. he's getting better, plus I had to get him a few diecasts for that reason, to respect HIS work, and destroy the mass produced junk!
recently my son had his video games, and television taken from him (until further notice) and he started building his models again. since then, his grades have improved, his attitude towards his teacher, and others has improved, he reads books, and his speach has dramatically improved. he is also alot more focused on the task at hand. I think I'll let him have his games back, but only for an hour or two each day.
sorry to have changed the subject, I just got off on a rant.
No, that's OK. That is exactly what I was talking about when I said above "instant gradification" Kids don't want to do anything that they are going to have to invest time into. I do not have kids, this is just an observation I've made by watching the kids of my friends. I'm glade to here that you feel the same way. But it makes me even happier to see that you, as a parent, realize what is happening to your son and that you are willing to do something about it. My hat's off to you. I will go farther and say that it is not all the fault of the parent that the children of today act like this. I know for example that both the middle school and high school that I attended as a child have completely done away with any kind of industrail arts classes in favor of computer training. There is no incurragement for the yougsters of today to use there minds and hands to accomplish something.
Icon Modeler
answer: Video Games. kids don't want to build something, they want it spoon fed. why should they get a plastic kit that will take 2 weeks to build into what they want, when they can just buy it, then they can ACTUALLY PLAY WITH IT!!!
my son is 9, and I've tried to instill my impression on how diecast is "LAZY" and he seems to agree, but the models he builds, he wants to play with, consequently destroying them. he's getting better, plus I had to get him a few diecasts for that reason, to respect HIS work, and destroy the mass produced junk!
recently my son had his video games, and television taken from him (until further notice) and he started building his models again. since then, his grades have improved, his attitude towards his teacher, and others has improved, he reads books, and his speach has dramatically improved. he is also alot more focused on the task at hand. I think I'll let him have his games back, but only for an hour or two each day.
sorry to have changed the subject, I just got off on a rant.
No, that's OK. That is exactly what I was talking about when I said above "instant gradification" Kids don't want to do anything that they are going to have to invest time into. I do not have kids, this is just an observation I've made by watching the kids of my friends. I'm glade to here that you feel the same way. But it makes me even happier to see that you, as a parent, realize what is happening to your son and that you are willing to do something about it. My hat's off to you. I will go farther and say that it is not all the fault of the parent that the children of today act like this. I know for example that both the middle school and high school that I attended as a child have completely done away with any kind of industrail arts classes in favor of computer training. There is no incurragement for the yougsters of today to use there minds and hands to accomplish something.
Icon Modeler
winstona
11-24-2006, 02:10 PM
No, that's OK. That is exactly what I was talking about when I said above "instant gradification" Kids don't want to do anything that they are going to have to invest time into. I do not have kids, this is just an observation I've made by watching the kids of my friends. I'm glade to here that you feel the same way. But it makes me even happier to see that you, as a parent, realize what is happening to your son and that you are willing to do something about it. My hat's off to you. I will go farther and say that it is not all the fault of the parent that the children of today act like this. I know for example that both the middle school and high school that I attended as a child have completely done away with any kind of industrail arts classes in favor of computer training. There is no incurragement for the yougsters of today to use there minds and hands to accomplish something.
Icon Modeler
Well, I would like to offer a different point of view on this topic.
Say for example, if high quality diecast finished models (like Autoart for example) were available in the market 20 years ago, would we have still gotten into this hobby of plastic car modelling? I am sure some will still loved to. But for me as a 10 yr old kid, I would rahter pick a nicely done diecast over a plastic model car that I may or may not be able to make it look as nice as a diecast....
I am sure the reason why plastic models blossom the way they did before was because if you wanted a real car replica, you have to build it yourself. There weren't any affordable alternatives and buying a toy car just would not give you the same qualilty back then.
But recently, the quality gap between diecast and plastic models are getting much narrower. Thus, the slowing down of our beloved hobby.
The point I want to make here is we should not conveniently use the "kids getting lazy and the video game" argument whenever we talk about the downfall of our hobby. Don't forget, we were once kids too!
BTW, I totally disagree with you saying that computers have caused people to not use their minds. Simple example - Who do you think programmed this wonderful message board so that you and I can freely exchange our opinions in two different geographic locations??? :)
Winston
Icon Modeler
Well, I would like to offer a different point of view on this topic.
Say for example, if high quality diecast finished models (like Autoart for example) were available in the market 20 years ago, would we have still gotten into this hobby of plastic car modelling? I am sure some will still loved to. But for me as a 10 yr old kid, I would rahter pick a nicely done diecast over a plastic model car that I may or may not be able to make it look as nice as a diecast....
I am sure the reason why plastic models blossom the way they did before was because if you wanted a real car replica, you have to build it yourself. There weren't any affordable alternatives and buying a toy car just would not give you the same qualilty back then.
But recently, the quality gap between diecast and plastic models are getting much narrower. Thus, the slowing down of our beloved hobby.
The point I want to make here is we should not conveniently use the "kids getting lazy and the video game" argument whenever we talk about the downfall of our hobby. Don't forget, we were once kids too!
BTW, I totally disagree with you saying that computers have caused people to not use their minds. Simple example - Who do you think programmed this wonderful message board so that you and I can freely exchange our opinions in two different geographic locations??? :)
Winston
Khier
11-24-2006, 03:40 PM
BTW, I totally disagree with you saying that computers have caused people to not use their minds. Simple example - Who do you think programmed this wonderful message board so that you and I can freely exchange our opinions in two different geographic locations??? :)
Winston
But kids do not develop programs on computers. All what they do is shoot and kill, jump and run
Winston
But kids do not develop programs on computers. All what they do is shoot and kill, jump and run
Icon Modeler
11-24-2006, 03:50 PM
Well, I would like to offer a different point of view on this topic.
Say for example, if high quality diecast finished models (like Autoart for example) were available in the market 20 years ago, would we have still gotten into this hobby of plastic car modelling? I am sure some will still loved to. But for me as a 10 yr old kid, I would rahter pick a nicely done diecast over a plastic model car that I may or may not be able to make it look as nice as a diecast....
I am sure the reason why plastic models blossom the way they did before was because if you wanted a real car replica, you have to build it yourself. There weren't any affordable alternatives and buying a toy car just would not give you the same qualilty back then.
But recently, the quality gap between diecast and plastic models are getting much narrower. Thus, the slowing down of our beloved hobby.
Point taken. But I will say that I'm glad I grew up when I did because at that time I was forced to use my hands to create and challenge myself rather then the click of the mouse. It also gave me a deeper respect for the item in question. That is to say, if you build it yourself you are more likely to take care of it then if you just go out a buy it. If you just buy it and don't take care of it then you can always go out a buy another one seams to be the mind set of today. Respect is a whole other issue with todays youth and something I will not go into at this point.
The point I want to make here is we should not conveniently use the "kids getting lazy and the video game" argument whenever we talk about the downfall of our hobby. Don't forget, we were once kids too!
Yes I was (and maybe still am at heart) a kid and I don't ever remember wanting someone (or the manufacture) to put my model together for me. I looked forward to putting it together by myself and challenging my skills. Something I think is completely missing from todays youth. My experiance has been that as soon as a young person hits an obstical they move onto something completely different rather then tackle the obstical head on.
BTW, I totally disagree with you saying that computers have caused people to not use their minds. Simple example - Who do you think programmed this wonderful message board so that you and I can freely exchange our opinions in two different geographic locations??? :)
Winston
Truth is maybe a handful at best used there minds to write the software for this forum so that 1000's of poeple can site mindlessly at their computer and poke it their key board (including me).
How do you explain the regress in our schools for the industrial arts I.E. "shop class"??? My point was not to say the kids of today are not learning anything. They are using there minds, just not to create anything with there hands.
Icon Modeler
Say for example, if high quality diecast finished models (like Autoart for example) were available in the market 20 years ago, would we have still gotten into this hobby of plastic car modelling? I am sure some will still loved to. But for me as a 10 yr old kid, I would rahter pick a nicely done diecast over a plastic model car that I may or may not be able to make it look as nice as a diecast....
I am sure the reason why plastic models blossom the way they did before was because if you wanted a real car replica, you have to build it yourself. There weren't any affordable alternatives and buying a toy car just would not give you the same qualilty back then.
But recently, the quality gap between diecast and plastic models are getting much narrower. Thus, the slowing down of our beloved hobby.
Point taken. But I will say that I'm glad I grew up when I did because at that time I was forced to use my hands to create and challenge myself rather then the click of the mouse. It also gave me a deeper respect for the item in question. That is to say, if you build it yourself you are more likely to take care of it then if you just go out a buy it. If you just buy it and don't take care of it then you can always go out a buy another one seams to be the mind set of today. Respect is a whole other issue with todays youth and something I will not go into at this point.
The point I want to make here is we should not conveniently use the "kids getting lazy and the video game" argument whenever we talk about the downfall of our hobby. Don't forget, we were once kids too!
Yes I was (and maybe still am at heart) a kid and I don't ever remember wanting someone (or the manufacture) to put my model together for me. I looked forward to putting it together by myself and challenging my skills. Something I think is completely missing from todays youth. My experiance has been that as soon as a young person hits an obstical they move onto something completely different rather then tackle the obstical head on.
BTW, I totally disagree with you saying that computers have caused people to not use their minds. Simple example - Who do you think programmed this wonderful message board so that you and I can freely exchange our opinions in two different geographic locations??? :)
Winston
Truth is maybe a handful at best used there minds to write the software for this forum so that 1000's of poeple can site mindlessly at their computer and poke it their key board (including me).
How do you explain the regress in our schools for the industrial arts I.E. "shop class"??? My point was not to say the kids of today are not learning anything. They are using there minds, just not to create anything with there hands.
Icon Modeler
Khier
11-24-2006, 03:58 PM
"why the explosion of diecast?"
answer: Video Games. kids don't want to build something, they want it spoon fed. why should they get a plastic kit that will take 2 weeks to build into what they want, when they can just buy it, then they can ACTUALLY PLAY WITH IT!!!
my son is 9, and I've tried to instill my impression on how diecast is "LAZY" and he seems to agree, but the models he builds, he wants to play with, consequently destroying them. he's getting better, plus I had to get him a few diecasts for that reason, to respect HIS work, and destroy the mass produced junk!
recently my son had his video games, and television taken from him (until further notice) and he started building his models again. since then, his grades have improved, his attitude towards his teacher, and others has improved, he reads books, and his speach has dramatically improved. he is also alot more focused on the task at hand. I think I'll let him have his games back, but only for an hour or two each day.
sorry to have changed the subject, I just got off on a rant.
I agree with you in some points, and disagree in other points.
I started this hobby when I was 8 years old. It did not take me weeks to build airplane kits at that time, and cars later on. They were finished in 2-4 hours depending on the kit and were never played with, rather watched for hours with a lot of amazment and enthusiasm. Needless to say at that age my finishing standards and ambitions levels were completely different than now. What I want to say you do not have to play with a kit to be a kid, and you do not have to build a kit to play with to be a kid.
As far as your son's lack of interest in the hobby it might be because of you :). 8 years ago when my nephew was 10 years old I tried to drag his leg to the hobby by showing how he could build and paint a kit perfectly. The result was immediate lack of interest. My mistake was I wanted him to regards the hobby the way I do after more than 30 years building kits. But who said I had the same eye when I was 10 or 12? Motorised kits were the hit for me, and Tamiya big R/C kits were my ultimate dream. Today I cannot stand these kits with their silly lexan bodies.
I will not argue about the bad influence of modern computer games on kids attitudes. But I do not think they are a major element in diverting kids away from model building. I am 41 years old now, and I used to play with, well, video games (if you still remember tele pong) when I was 13 oor 14. I doubt if any computer or game console would impress anyone today as half as the ATARI 2600 console did in the early 80s. That silly 4 K console with its interchangable game cartridges was a true revolution in video games. I used to play for hours and hours, but did I loose interest in model building because of that? Well, come to my cellar and see my stock of kits and judge yourself :)
answer: Video Games. kids don't want to build something, they want it spoon fed. why should they get a plastic kit that will take 2 weeks to build into what they want, when they can just buy it, then they can ACTUALLY PLAY WITH IT!!!
my son is 9, and I've tried to instill my impression on how diecast is "LAZY" and he seems to agree, but the models he builds, he wants to play with, consequently destroying them. he's getting better, plus I had to get him a few diecasts for that reason, to respect HIS work, and destroy the mass produced junk!
recently my son had his video games, and television taken from him (until further notice) and he started building his models again. since then, his grades have improved, his attitude towards his teacher, and others has improved, he reads books, and his speach has dramatically improved. he is also alot more focused on the task at hand. I think I'll let him have his games back, but only for an hour or two each day.
sorry to have changed the subject, I just got off on a rant.
I agree with you in some points, and disagree in other points.
I started this hobby when I was 8 years old. It did not take me weeks to build airplane kits at that time, and cars later on. They were finished in 2-4 hours depending on the kit and were never played with, rather watched for hours with a lot of amazment and enthusiasm. Needless to say at that age my finishing standards and ambitions levels were completely different than now. What I want to say you do not have to play with a kit to be a kid, and you do not have to build a kit to play with to be a kid.
As far as your son's lack of interest in the hobby it might be because of you :). 8 years ago when my nephew was 10 years old I tried to drag his leg to the hobby by showing how he could build and paint a kit perfectly. The result was immediate lack of interest. My mistake was I wanted him to regards the hobby the way I do after more than 30 years building kits. But who said I had the same eye when I was 10 or 12? Motorised kits were the hit for me, and Tamiya big R/C kits were my ultimate dream. Today I cannot stand these kits with their silly lexan bodies.
I will not argue about the bad influence of modern computer games on kids attitudes. But I do not think they are a major element in diverting kids away from model building. I am 41 years old now, and I used to play with, well, video games (if you still remember tele pong) when I was 13 oor 14. I doubt if any computer or game console would impress anyone today as half as the ATARI 2600 console did in the early 80s. That silly 4 K console with its interchangable game cartridges was a true revolution in video games. I used to play for hours and hours, but did I loose interest in model building because of that? Well, come to my cellar and see my stock of kits and judge yourself :)
Khier
11-24-2006, 04:01 PM
I see this thread is getting really interesting :)
rsxse240
11-24-2006, 04:21 PM
How do you explain the regress in our schools for the industrial arts I.E. "shop class"???
cheap assed legislature. and the fact that when I was in school, only a hand full of kids in our (near demise) metal shop really cared anything about the class, and would rather play video games, and smoke pot. as a matter of fact, I was the only one to complete any of the projects set before us in the timeframe allotted, or at all. most just went out back and smoked (including me from time to time).
now don't get me wrong, SOME diecast are worth the purchase, but they are well beyond the budget of most youths. the diecast I referr to are the ones at walmart, and toys 'r' us. I personally love some of the diecast that are available at these retailers, but I'd never spend the $50 on one for my kid, just so he can play "Fast and Furious" with them....that's what the cheap ones are for.
So, here's a little thought I had. Find a local kid that likes cars, show them your hobby, and get them started. Who knows, if they like it, then maybe they could get their friends into it, and this would further the plastic model hobby for another generation or something. if not, atleast it could keep one kid off drugs or something. I've shown my son's friends my stuff, and my son reports that TWO of his friends have since started with some simple snap tite kits, but with their dad's help have painted, and done some wheel swaps and what not. this spring, the 2 boys, their dads, my son, and myself plan to head down to Dallas for an anual model contest, and when they see what is on the tables, I know that they'll be inspired to work harder to build a better kit for the next year (this is how my son got started). oh, and a side note, get to know the kid's parents so they don't have a problem with this, you don't want to look like a pervert or something.
cheap assed legislature. and the fact that when I was in school, only a hand full of kids in our (near demise) metal shop really cared anything about the class, and would rather play video games, and smoke pot. as a matter of fact, I was the only one to complete any of the projects set before us in the timeframe allotted, or at all. most just went out back and smoked (including me from time to time).
now don't get me wrong, SOME diecast are worth the purchase, but they are well beyond the budget of most youths. the diecast I referr to are the ones at walmart, and toys 'r' us. I personally love some of the diecast that are available at these retailers, but I'd never spend the $50 on one for my kid, just so he can play "Fast and Furious" with them....that's what the cheap ones are for.
So, here's a little thought I had. Find a local kid that likes cars, show them your hobby, and get them started. Who knows, if they like it, then maybe they could get their friends into it, and this would further the plastic model hobby for another generation or something. if not, atleast it could keep one kid off drugs or something. I've shown my son's friends my stuff, and my son reports that TWO of his friends have since started with some simple snap tite kits, but with their dad's help have painted, and done some wheel swaps and what not. this spring, the 2 boys, their dads, my son, and myself plan to head down to Dallas for an anual model contest, and when they see what is on the tables, I know that they'll be inspired to work harder to build a better kit for the next year (this is how my son got started). oh, and a side note, get to know the kid's parents so they don't have a problem with this, you don't want to look like a pervert or something.
rsxse240
11-24-2006, 04:26 PM
Khier, that is a good point, and is well taken. I think I'll let my son handle his own kit from start to finish, and then show him some tips as he's going through the building process. I agree, in hind sight (20/20) I did try to enforce my attention to detail a bit much, but I was hoping to also enstill my sense of patience. I guess that will come with time. I mean, hell, he's only 9! haha
rsxse240
11-24-2006, 04:28 PM
oh, and one more thing, before you TOTALLY disreguard diecasts, take a look at the diecast section of our own highly reguarded A/F, there are some outstanding customs, and some highly detailed kits going on in there.
Khier
11-24-2006, 05:25 PM
oh, and one more thing, before you TOTALLY disreguard diecasts, take a look at the diecast section of our own highly reguarded A/F, there are some outstanding customs, and some highly detailed kits going on in there.
You didnot get my point, or perhaps I have not put it right. I dislike die cast simply because the lack of individuality. Two people may build the same kit, but you will never get two identical models at the end. Actually if someone builds two identical kits, he will end up with two different models. I may build the crapiest models on earth, but they are similar to none, and no built kit in the wrold are similar to the one I build, and this goes to everyone of course. But if you and me go to a hobby shop and buy two of the finest die cast models on earth, we will have two identical models. You may detail, modify,..etc..etc. It makes the situation better of course, but it is nothing compared to building your own kit with your srtong points and flaws.
With all respect to all branchesof the hobby.
Walid
You didnot get my point, or perhaps I have not put it right. I dislike die cast simply because the lack of individuality. Two people may build the same kit, but you will never get two identical models at the end. Actually if someone builds two identical kits, he will end up with two different models. I may build the crapiest models on earth, but they are similar to none, and no built kit in the wrold are similar to the one I build, and this goes to everyone of course. But if you and me go to a hobby shop and buy two of the finest die cast models on earth, we will have two identical models. You may detail, modify,..etc..etc. It makes the situation better of course, but it is nothing compared to building your own kit with your srtong points and flaws.
With all respect to all branchesof the hobby.
Walid
Jayson62
11-24-2006, 07:42 PM
Being 20(21 soon) I am kinda inbetween some of the older guys on here and the younger kids that I know. I grew up mostly playing with video games and Legos. My dad made some models back in the day and they looked very challenging and i knew I couldnt do it. I only recently got into models maybe a year ago and I must say I love it. Models do bring a certain individuality to it but it also gave me a chance to make cars that arent in diecast. And some of the cars that are in diecast (JADA, Hot Wheels those wack scale Bling cars) just are to out of proportion and ugly in some cases. I do still buy some of the high end diecast mostly just for NASCAR cars due to the difficulty i saw in them to make good ones and the lack of quality aftermarket decals lately.
I notice kids today mostly love video games and TV and sports. Most of the younger kids I know dont show an interest in modelling mostly because I dont see them knowing about models. I actually rarely see most kids interested in cars. I think it depends on the enviroment they grow up in. I grew up around cars and lived my life around cars. Some kids I see dont grow up like that and they like sports or other outdoor activities or TV and games.
Its good to see some people show the hobby to the younger generation like Rsx does. Its inspirational and I think I might buy some kids I think might be interested in modeling some models for christmas. Its a great father-son project.
I notice kids today mostly love video games and TV and sports. Most of the younger kids I know dont show an interest in modelling mostly because I dont see them knowing about models. I actually rarely see most kids interested in cars. I think it depends on the enviroment they grow up in. I grew up around cars and lived my life around cars. Some kids I see dont grow up like that and they like sports or other outdoor activities or TV and games.
Its good to see some people show the hobby to the younger generation like Rsx does. Its inspirational and I think I might buy some kids I think might be interested in modeling some models for christmas. Its a great father-son project.
Layla's Keeper
11-24-2006, 08:49 PM
I don't know. Personally speaking, I think that modern racing games, with their boatload of licensed and accurately depicted cars, can be a great breeding ground for new enthusiasts, and from enthusiasts we can get builders.
Problem is, what incentive for building models is there right now? A kid needs incentive to pick up a kit, glue, and paint. Subject matter is a great first incentive, and the colossal success of Revell's "tuner" series of kits is a good indicator of this.
But it's a double-edge sword. New tooling costs money, and licensing even more. Kit manufacturers can't take big risks on new kits. Revell KNOWS they can sell Vipers, Mustangs, and Vettes, so tooling up those cars is no big deal. But they have no idea how many R34 GTR Skylines they'd sell. So, with thin profit margins, huge licensing and tooling costs, and a demanding adult modeler market (the reason why AMT/Ertl blew a gorgeous tooling budget producing beautiful kits of 1962 Pontiac Catalina 421SD's and 1958 Edsel Pacers, great kits of cool cars that have little to no relevance to a younger buyer), kit manufacturers like Revell look to the safe route.
Problem is, what incentive for building models is there right now? A kid needs incentive to pick up a kit, glue, and paint. Subject matter is a great first incentive, and the colossal success of Revell's "tuner" series of kits is a good indicator of this.
But it's a double-edge sword. New tooling costs money, and licensing even more. Kit manufacturers can't take big risks on new kits. Revell KNOWS they can sell Vipers, Mustangs, and Vettes, so tooling up those cars is no big deal. But they have no idea how many R34 GTR Skylines they'd sell. So, with thin profit margins, huge licensing and tooling costs, and a demanding adult modeler market (the reason why AMT/Ertl blew a gorgeous tooling budget producing beautiful kits of 1962 Pontiac Catalina 421SD's and 1958 Edsel Pacers, great kits of cool cars that have little to no relevance to a younger buyer), kit manufacturers like Revell look to the safe route.
Khier
11-25-2006, 01:22 AM
... kit manufacturers like Revell look to the safe route.
Die cast manufacturers have to pay the same for license and tools.
One word about kids and lack of interest in cars. Have you seen a model with a nice design lately? The last 5 years? or since the begining of the 1990s?
There are only these ugly mini vans, SUVs, bulff big cars with head lights looking like insects and strange constructions on four wheels carrying blue and white flag (and comes from Germany to make it easier to identify). Apart form the nice/ugly debate and how to define that, modern cars lost their charisma completely. You cannot distinguish Italian cars from Japanese the Japanese ones nowadays. They are all fast, they are powerful, they are all luxurious, and, they are all ugly (with rare exceptions). They all look dull and lack identity. How do you expect a kid be intersted in automobiles under theses conditions?
Die cast manufacturers have to pay the same for license and tools.
One word about kids and lack of interest in cars. Have you seen a model with a nice design lately? The last 5 years? or since the begining of the 1990s?
There are only these ugly mini vans, SUVs, bulff big cars with head lights looking like insects and strange constructions on four wheels carrying blue and white flag (and comes from Germany to make it easier to identify). Apart form the nice/ugly debate and how to define that, modern cars lost their charisma completely. You cannot distinguish Italian cars from Japanese the Japanese ones nowadays. They are all fast, they are powerful, they are all luxurious, and, they are all ugly (with rare exceptions). They all look dull and lack identity. How do you expect a kid be intersted in automobiles under theses conditions?
freakray
11-25-2006, 09:23 AM
They are all fast, they are powerful, they are all luxurious, and, they are all ugly (with rare exceptions). They all look dull and lack identity. How do you expect a kid be intersted in automobiles under theses conditions?
Your opinion is very subjective.
Your opinion is very subjective.
Katsura
11-25-2006, 11:34 AM
May I jump in and defend the computer games slightly? As a game programmer (I've worked on consoles, PC and now mobile games) and avid gamer for more than 15 years, I think although certain types of games, such as the 1st person shooters, do offer instant gratification, many otehr games, like strategy game, ROGs etc, actually reward the player if they take the time to build up their in-game empire/ persona/ what not.
My favorite type of game, the RPGs, often take average 40~60 hours to complete, and that compares well to complete a couple model kits. Although you don't build anything physical in a game, the players are virtually building up expereince etc, which is in turn rewarded by opening up more aear etc.
Most hardcore gamers are actually very similar to model builders, they take the patience and time to get familair witht eh game and level up.
Having said that, after playeing games for that many years, they now mostly bore me - it's a feeling of 'seen that, done it before', apart from ever more fancier graphics, there's nothing new to be experienced. In fact it's because I'm so bored with games I started picking up my old hobby like model building once again. :)
My favorite type of game, the RPGs, often take average 40~60 hours to complete, and that compares well to complete a couple model kits. Although you don't build anything physical in a game, the players are virtually building up expereince etc, which is in turn rewarded by opening up more aear etc.
Most hardcore gamers are actually very similar to model builders, they take the patience and time to get familair witht eh game and level up.
Having said that, after playeing games for that many years, they now mostly bore me - it's a feeling of 'seen that, done it before', apart from ever more fancier graphics, there's nothing new to be experienced. In fact it's because I'm so bored with games I started picking up my old hobby like model building once again. :)
rsxse240
11-25-2006, 03:39 PM
I guess gaming isn't much different (from a physical stand point, anyway) from building models realy, in the sense that building a model out of the box is the same as playing a game to reach the goal. both have a starting point, obstacles to overcome, each person has their own way of getting to the goal, a person can get a sense of accomplishment when complete, most newer games give the individual options on how to achieve the goal as do model kits, both have contests that provide awards, and above all, both gamers and modelers are sitting on their duff staring at their medium for hours on end.
BUT!!! modelers have something over the gamers. we can actually SHOW what we have been working on, we can go BEYOND what came in the box (I guess gamer/hackers can too), and we can combine two or more kits to make one really special build (and again, I guess gamer/hackers could too).
Khier, I didn't mean for that statement to be directed at you, or anyone else in particular. I meant for it to somewhat defend the diecast crowd. :) I've seen some spectacular diecast builds that make my plastic building skills look like I built my stuff out of playdough!!! hahaha
BUT!!! modelers have something over the gamers. we can actually SHOW what we have been working on, we can go BEYOND what came in the box (I guess gamer/hackers can too), and we can combine two or more kits to make one really special build (and again, I guess gamer/hackers could too).
Khier, I didn't mean for that statement to be directed at you, or anyone else in particular. I meant for it to somewhat defend the diecast crowd. :) I've seen some spectacular diecast builds that make my plastic building skills look like I built my stuff out of playdough!!! hahaha
Taiphun
11-25-2006, 08:21 PM
Die-casts are a form of instant gratification for me. I don't really have time or the skill to create a 1/18 Maserati Birdcage or 1/18 McLaren SLR the way companies such as CMC (who makes both of the mentioned cars) do it. That's why I collect die-cast cars.
I think alot of kids these days don't have the patience to build models.. they want something instantly and that they can take it out of the box and have something to look at right away.
Having said that though, my aim is one day to build a 1/12 car model to the level that Hiroboy built his R32 Skyline to - I just have to acquire the level of skill to do that.
I think alot of kids these days don't have the patience to build models.. they want something instantly and that they can take it out of the box and have something to look at right away.
Having said that though, my aim is one day to build a 1/12 car model to the level that Hiroboy built his R32 Skyline to - I just have to acquire the level of skill to do that.
Jay!
11-25-2006, 09:52 PM
Quite honestly, several of my recent modeling decisions have been influenced by two video game franchises - Gran Turismo and Grand Theft Auto.
Khier
11-26-2006, 03:41 AM
I Khier, I didn't mean for that statement to be directed at you, or anyone else in particular. I meant for it to somewhat defend the diecast crowd. :) I've seen some spectacular diecast builds that make my plastic building skills look like I built my stuff out of playdough!!! hahaha
Which staetment???....:confused: ... I noticed nothing...
Katsura, i do not regard the matter as 'modelling vs. video game war'. It is not about which is good and which is bad. Some colleagues blame video games for taking the younger generation away from our hobby, and I agree partially with these views.
But since we went that far from the original stream of the thread, I may allow myself to go a bit farther :). Video games, as anything else in this world, may become harmful when practiced with exaggaration. I am not a doctor but it is hard for me to imagine that most of jonior school shooters were obsessed by this kinds of games was a pure coincedence. I find it also difficult to imagine having severe mental tension concentrated on finger tips in a dark corner in fornt of bright screen where the feeling of day time are lost for several hours is constructive in any sense. For an hour or two it may be fun, but for 6-8 hours a day is addiction in my opinion. Being a former sinner who played space invaders and packman (is there someone here who still remembers these titles?), and Ocarina of time for hours does not make such practice healthy :).
Which staetment???....:confused: ... I noticed nothing...
Katsura, i do not regard the matter as 'modelling vs. video game war'. It is not about which is good and which is bad. Some colleagues blame video games for taking the younger generation away from our hobby, and I agree partially with these views.
But since we went that far from the original stream of the thread, I may allow myself to go a bit farther :). Video games, as anything else in this world, may become harmful when practiced with exaggaration. I am not a doctor but it is hard for me to imagine that most of jonior school shooters were obsessed by this kinds of games was a pure coincedence. I find it also difficult to imagine having severe mental tension concentrated on finger tips in a dark corner in fornt of bright screen where the feeling of day time are lost for several hours is constructive in any sense. For an hour or two it may be fun, but for 6-8 hours a day is addiction in my opinion. Being a former sinner who played space invaders and packman (is there someone here who still remembers these titles?), and Ocarina of time for hours does not make such practice healthy :).
JBS103
11-26-2006, 09:16 AM
Just to enter this conversation from a 17 year olds point of view:
I have recently become very interested in scale modeling after looking through the internet and seeing what there is to offer. I have always been a fan of cars and this is just a new way to "play" with them. With that said though, I have a very slim amount of time to model each week. I go to school, I work part-time, and I have to deal with all the extra-curicular activities (community service, sports, etc.). By the end of the day, when I am finally free to relax, its nearing dinner time if not completely past it. My workload may be completely different from others, but where I am situated, there is a constant stress put on getting into a competitive school for college (Yeah, I agree, its getting ridiculous). To do that, it requires of time and a lot of it. When I finally get a free moment, I usually spend it with my friends on the weekends; the last thing I want to do is stay at home.
So if you were to ask me why my generation and peer group doesn't model, I would have to say the lack of time and overall interest in staying stationary. Yeah I play video games like everyone else, but it really has become one of those things that is thrown onto the backburner, just like modeling. Granted, I am really deticated to achieving good grades while some others aren't, but in general, high school just goes way to fast for all of us.
I am by no means looking for pity. I would just like to bring a different perspective to the table.
I have recently become very interested in scale modeling after looking through the internet and seeing what there is to offer. I have always been a fan of cars and this is just a new way to "play" with them. With that said though, I have a very slim amount of time to model each week. I go to school, I work part-time, and I have to deal with all the extra-curicular activities (community service, sports, etc.). By the end of the day, when I am finally free to relax, its nearing dinner time if not completely past it. My workload may be completely different from others, but where I am situated, there is a constant stress put on getting into a competitive school for college (Yeah, I agree, its getting ridiculous). To do that, it requires of time and a lot of it. When I finally get a free moment, I usually spend it with my friends on the weekends; the last thing I want to do is stay at home.
So if you were to ask me why my generation and peer group doesn't model, I would have to say the lack of time and overall interest in staying stationary. Yeah I play video games like everyone else, but it really has become one of those things that is thrown onto the backburner, just like modeling. Granted, I am really deticated to achieving good grades while some others aren't, but in general, high school just goes way to fast for all of us.
I am by no means looking for pity. I would just like to bring a different perspective to the table.
willimo
11-26-2006, 10:13 AM
There is a lot of opinion in this thread, and a lot of bias. Not a lot of sense is being made on account of it.
It's easy to blame things like video games and "cheap assed legislature" getting rid of industrial arts classes* for the so called slow and eventual demise of our hobby.
First, I'd love for someone to show, with numbers to back it up, that the hobby is in fact declining. I'd really be interested to see what the actual dollars spent in the hobby look like, where they're going and then be willing to try to figure out why. There may be fewer giants; fewer big names like Revell, Tamiya, AMT, and Fujimi. But there are actually very many, much smaller operations out there. From the ones like S27 or MFH who are pretty sizeable even, to companies like SMS and Detail Master, and on down to little guys like SAS and CrazyModeler and RMoM. All of which make stunning, incredible kits, parts, tools, and accessories for our kits. I've not been in the hobby for a long time, but it seems that, in my experience, there has been a boom lately in aftermarket companies who make stuff for our kits. And even so, with the exception of Tamiya, even the big makers are keeping pace. Aoshima and Fujimi are pumping out tons of new kits and Revell is moving into new segments of the market with just about every fourth new kit the press.
Second, I think a real huge issue being faced not by both modelers and manufacturers is the hugely segmented market that is only getting more and more divided. It used to be pretty simple for them. The Japanese companies put out tons of kits of Japanese cars - just about everything - even the most pedestrian little cars, because the Japanese seem to want a miniature anything (anyone seen the plastic kits of... sushi?). For Revell and AMT, it wasn't much harder to figure out. All they had to do was pump out '69 Camaro after '69 Camaro, press some Mustangs, Vettes, Vipers, and maybe a sprinkle of exotic here and there, and they were golden. Nowadays the 1:1 car market is broken up into very many very disparate segments. There's still the '69 Camaro contingent, but then there's the Sport Compact segment (that's broken up into show and performance, as well as several marque specific enthusiasts that refuse to mix), off road enthusiasts, pro mod, custom, lowrider, donk; hell, a couple days ago I found a website all about ratted out, rusty VWs called Hoodride that seems to be a whole new segment unto itself. How can we expect the model manufacturers to keep up with that? How can we expect them to attract young modelers with interests so diverse? How can we expect them to compete against a $150 VW bug that can be made to run with a screwdriver and made status equipped with some Empi rims and a stencil sprayed "Rust isn't a crime" on the fender? Which brings me to my next point:
It isn't computers. It isn't lazy. It's just diverse interests. Everyone is a geek in their own right. We are just biased towards our own way of seeing things. And before ya'll geek out on me for calling ya'll geeks, think about. We build model cars. We get very excited about it. We get together here and at shows and in hobby shops to talk about new products and what we're doing and how we did it and what paint we used and so on and so forth. We love it. We eat it up. Tomorrow (or today), go down to REI or EMS or whatever large outdoor retailer you have near you. Walk around in there. That store is also a hobby shop. You'll see people who have a serious rapport with the store staff, and other shoppers, talking about skis (what wax should I use? Who sharpened the edges? Check out this cool new boot clip, Hey dude, I'm going to learn to telemark this season) bikes, climbing equipment, whatever. They go to shows and meets and competitions, too. If you asked them, they'd look down their noses at us, and say, "Sure they have a model to show when they're done, but what's the fun in that? They didn't climb a mountain or challenge themselves physically." Now ya'll are probably thinking that sure, that's a hobby, but not one that contributes to the downfall of modeling like those lazy videogamers. But, like has been said before, most videogames (even games like Grand Theft Auto, as much as it may seem like a shoot-'em-up) have very involved storylines, take a tremendous amount of time and effort to complete, and are very challenging. And while they don't have a model to show off when done, they do have a finished game. And they get together with other gamers and talk about what they did to beat this villain or that boss, and show off that their GTA or Final Fantasy is 99.9% complete because they are so skilled. It's pretty much only interesting within their own enthusiast crowd, but frankly, how many people have you shown your new resin hood to or your finished model to and gotten a real, genuinely excited response from? Be honest. A friend saying "Wow, that's neat," doesn't count and you know it.
There is a lot to be said for market forces and how they affect the modeling community and the companies that make things specifically for us. I am no economist and haven't a head for business by any stretch of the imagination, so I won't even pretend to understand them. And sure, a very many people with leisure time and money would rather spend it on a bigger TV, or a diecast model, or something else entirely. But consider a couple things. Model builders are very militantly modelers. We won't stand for diecasts - there is (I imagine) a very small group of builders moving to diecasts. Diecasts, however, are expaning their market into new directions. Think: the car enthusiast who's never had a model car of any sort before. After five or ten diecasts, maybe he'll pick up glue paint and a kit. This is expanding the model market, to, albeit indirectly.
Nintendo recently decided that there is little use in expanding their market share in the videogaming segment. That segment is too small for them to see the growth they need to see in order to expand their development, or even to keep up. That's why the Nintendo DS and the Wii are very different from other consoles out now and out before them - with nontraditional video games and more intuitive controls than before. Their aim: to expand the video game market into segments and demographics where video games have been traditionally nonexistant.
This is what model makers need to do to survive, and this is what they are doing with every diecast they make, from the hyperrealistic MCW or Auto-art models, to the cartoonish JADA toys; they are making inroads to enthusisast who've never had a wheel smaller than 13" before. Every wheel under 1" in diameter that gets sold is a victory for modeling, whether it comes under a diecast or comes on a sprue, it doesn't matter. Every new miniature buyer is a new customer that model manufacturers will be able to woo later. All the aftermarket model companies are a testament to this. Every new kit we get is a testamant to this - and we are getting more than ya'll are willing to admit.
This hobby is healthy. Different, but healthy. Quit trying to blame video games or diecasts or whatever it is you have a vendetta against. Everything is going to be fine.
__________________________________________________ _____________
*"Cheap assed legislature" is about as far from the truth as you can get on this particular topic.
Legislatures, federal or state, do not control education spending in the United States. Education costs are almost exclusively the burden of municipal governements.
School spending is as high as it has ever been, and is actually in line with inflation. There is very little creedence to the argument that schools need more money. They money they do get, however, is misappropriated. Schools would do very well with better funds management, not more funding.
There has been a large shift, lately, in shool curriculum, to prepare students for college. This has been at the expense of industrial arts or other technical studies. Along with the baseless hysteria that American students are falling behind their counterparts in other nations, schools have been increaslingly pressured (and recently legislated) to put the emphasis on preparing students for college with computer skills courses and poorly designed and conceived math and science classes at the expense of technical curriculum and the humanities. As a result: a generation of students that can use Microsoft Word, but can't spell a damn word they type.
If there is any case to be made for schools failing (which there isn't much of, honestly), it is because there is diminishing support for students at home and in the community. As the social (not economic) worth of education declines, so do students' grades and their ability to move along in the system.
Well meant but poorly designed legislation, such as No Child Left Behind (which was federal legislation, left unfunded, because as stated before, federal and state governments to not pay for education) hold schools accountable for students' performance in just a few of these college prep curriculum, and penalize schools who fall short instead of aiding them, so school who have few funds to do mishandling of money are forced to further mishandle what money they do have so that they make the "grade" and are not subject to probationary periods and less money still
It's easy to blame things like video games and "cheap assed legislature" getting rid of industrial arts classes* for the so called slow and eventual demise of our hobby.
First, I'd love for someone to show, with numbers to back it up, that the hobby is in fact declining. I'd really be interested to see what the actual dollars spent in the hobby look like, where they're going and then be willing to try to figure out why. There may be fewer giants; fewer big names like Revell, Tamiya, AMT, and Fujimi. But there are actually very many, much smaller operations out there. From the ones like S27 or MFH who are pretty sizeable even, to companies like SMS and Detail Master, and on down to little guys like SAS and CrazyModeler and RMoM. All of which make stunning, incredible kits, parts, tools, and accessories for our kits. I've not been in the hobby for a long time, but it seems that, in my experience, there has been a boom lately in aftermarket companies who make stuff for our kits. And even so, with the exception of Tamiya, even the big makers are keeping pace. Aoshima and Fujimi are pumping out tons of new kits and Revell is moving into new segments of the market with just about every fourth new kit the press.
Second, I think a real huge issue being faced not by both modelers and manufacturers is the hugely segmented market that is only getting more and more divided. It used to be pretty simple for them. The Japanese companies put out tons of kits of Japanese cars - just about everything - even the most pedestrian little cars, because the Japanese seem to want a miniature anything (anyone seen the plastic kits of... sushi?). For Revell and AMT, it wasn't much harder to figure out. All they had to do was pump out '69 Camaro after '69 Camaro, press some Mustangs, Vettes, Vipers, and maybe a sprinkle of exotic here and there, and they were golden. Nowadays the 1:1 car market is broken up into very many very disparate segments. There's still the '69 Camaro contingent, but then there's the Sport Compact segment (that's broken up into show and performance, as well as several marque specific enthusiasts that refuse to mix), off road enthusiasts, pro mod, custom, lowrider, donk; hell, a couple days ago I found a website all about ratted out, rusty VWs called Hoodride that seems to be a whole new segment unto itself. How can we expect the model manufacturers to keep up with that? How can we expect them to attract young modelers with interests so diverse? How can we expect them to compete against a $150 VW bug that can be made to run with a screwdriver and made status equipped with some Empi rims and a stencil sprayed "Rust isn't a crime" on the fender? Which brings me to my next point:
It isn't computers. It isn't lazy. It's just diverse interests. Everyone is a geek in their own right. We are just biased towards our own way of seeing things. And before ya'll geek out on me for calling ya'll geeks, think about. We build model cars. We get very excited about it. We get together here and at shows and in hobby shops to talk about new products and what we're doing and how we did it and what paint we used and so on and so forth. We love it. We eat it up. Tomorrow (or today), go down to REI or EMS or whatever large outdoor retailer you have near you. Walk around in there. That store is also a hobby shop. You'll see people who have a serious rapport with the store staff, and other shoppers, talking about skis (what wax should I use? Who sharpened the edges? Check out this cool new boot clip, Hey dude, I'm going to learn to telemark this season) bikes, climbing equipment, whatever. They go to shows and meets and competitions, too. If you asked them, they'd look down their noses at us, and say, "Sure they have a model to show when they're done, but what's the fun in that? They didn't climb a mountain or challenge themselves physically." Now ya'll are probably thinking that sure, that's a hobby, but not one that contributes to the downfall of modeling like those lazy videogamers. But, like has been said before, most videogames (even games like Grand Theft Auto, as much as it may seem like a shoot-'em-up) have very involved storylines, take a tremendous amount of time and effort to complete, and are very challenging. And while they don't have a model to show off when done, they do have a finished game. And they get together with other gamers and talk about what they did to beat this villain or that boss, and show off that their GTA or Final Fantasy is 99.9% complete because they are so skilled. It's pretty much only interesting within their own enthusiast crowd, but frankly, how many people have you shown your new resin hood to or your finished model to and gotten a real, genuinely excited response from? Be honest. A friend saying "Wow, that's neat," doesn't count and you know it.
There is a lot to be said for market forces and how they affect the modeling community and the companies that make things specifically for us. I am no economist and haven't a head for business by any stretch of the imagination, so I won't even pretend to understand them. And sure, a very many people with leisure time and money would rather spend it on a bigger TV, or a diecast model, or something else entirely. But consider a couple things. Model builders are very militantly modelers. We won't stand for diecasts - there is (I imagine) a very small group of builders moving to diecasts. Diecasts, however, are expaning their market into new directions. Think: the car enthusiast who's never had a model car of any sort before. After five or ten diecasts, maybe he'll pick up glue paint and a kit. This is expanding the model market, to, albeit indirectly.
Nintendo recently decided that there is little use in expanding their market share in the videogaming segment. That segment is too small for them to see the growth they need to see in order to expand their development, or even to keep up. That's why the Nintendo DS and the Wii are very different from other consoles out now and out before them - with nontraditional video games and more intuitive controls than before. Their aim: to expand the video game market into segments and demographics where video games have been traditionally nonexistant.
This is what model makers need to do to survive, and this is what they are doing with every diecast they make, from the hyperrealistic MCW or Auto-art models, to the cartoonish JADA toys; they are making inroads to enthusisast who've never had a wheel smaller than 13" before. Every wheel under 1" in diameter that gets sold is a victory for modeling, whether it comes under a diecast or comes on a sprue, it doesn't matter. Every new miniature buyer is a new customer that model manufacturers will be able to woo later. All the aftermarket model companies are a testament to this. Every new kit we get is a testamant to this - and we are getting more than ya'll are willing to admit.
This hobby is healthy. Different, but healthy. Quit trying to blame video games or diecasts or whatever it is you have a vendetta against. Everything is going to be fine.
__________________________________________________ _____________
*"Cheap assed legislature" is about as far from the truth as you can get on this particular topic.
Legislatures, federal or state, do not control education spending in the United States. Education costs are almost exclusively the burden of municipal governements.
School spending is as high as it has ever been, and is actually in line with inflation. There is very little creedence to the argument that schools need more money. They money they do get, however, is misappropriated. Schools would do very well with better funds management, not more funding.
There has been a large shift, lately, in shool curriculum, to prepare students for college. This has been at the expense of industrial arts or other technical studies. Along with the baseless hysteria that American students are falling behind their counterparts in other nations, schools have been increaslingly pressured (and recently legislated) to put the emphasis on preparing students for college with computer skills courses and poorly designed and conceived math and science classes at the expense of technical curriculum and the humanities. As a result: a generation of students that can use Microsoft Word, but can't spell a damn word they type.
If there is any case to be made for schools failing (which there isn't much of, honestly), it is because there is diminishing support for students at home and in the community. As the social (not economic) worth of education declines, so do students' grades and their ability to move along in the system.
Well meant but poorly designed legislation, such as No Child Left Behind (which was federal legislation, left unfunded, because as stated before, federal and state governments to not pay for education) hold schools accountable for students' performance in just a few of these college prep curriculum, and penalize schools who fall short instead of aiding them, so school who have few funds to do mishandling of money are forced to further mishandle what money they do have so that they make the "grade" and are not subject to probationary periods and less money still
hirofkd
11-26-2006, 01:46 PM
It depends on which eras you compare. In 60s, one lot consisted of 10,000 units, and big manufactures scheduled 3-4 lots of each kit annually. Today, one lot is about 2000 to 4000, and some kits take 2-3 years to see the second lot. When I was in grade school, boys's wish list typically contained sporting equipments, model kits and well...cash!
But within the video game era of post 1980 and onward, I don't think the decline of the model kit industry isn't very sharp. And I don't really think resin kits count, because the size of market is just too small.
The problem is, it's not today's kids who don't make models, but it's yesterday's kids, as well. Just how many of your coworkers know how to make models? They don't have to do it on a regular basis, but when the situation comes, can they do that?
Back then, pretty much every dad knew how to make models. Today's parents generation think it's too difficult to put together a snap kit of only 20 parts before they even try. (real story)
One time I was shopping at a large hobby store in Tokyo, and a seemingly 10-year-old kid was deciding which car kit to buy. His mom was encouraging him to try more challenging one (Avex NSX to be precise), which was a good sign, and she suggested, "If it's too difficult, you can always ask your dad for help." But the kid replied, "No, he (dad) doesn't know anything about making models." In my mind I was yelling like, "Oh, c'mon, Mr. dad (who wasn't there), you're pathetic!" But I quickly realized that it's not just his dad, but it probably applies to many.
So blame today's fathers!:grinyes: Many adults don't appreciate anything that takes time and effort, and that includes cooking, home improvements and car repairs etc. Watching them, who could kids become remotely interested in doing things on their own?
But within the video game era of post 1980 and onward, I don't think the decline of the model kit industry isn't very sharp. And I don't really think resin kits count, because the size of market is just too small.
The problem is, it's not today's kids who don't make models, but it's yesterday's kids, as well. Just how many of your coworkers know how to make models? They don't have to do it on a regular basis, but when the situation comes, can they do that?
Back then, pretty much every dad knew how to make models. Today's parents generation think it's too difficult to put together a snap kit of only 20 parts before they even try. (real story)
One time I was shopping at a large hobby store in Tokyo, and a seemingly 10-year-old kid was deciding which car kit to buy. His mom was encouraging him to try more challenging one (Avex NSX to be precise), which was a good sign, and she suggested, "If it's too difficult, you can always ask your dad for help." But the kid replied, "No, he (dad) doesn't know anything about making models." In my mind I was yelling like, "Oh, c'mon, Mr. dad (who wasn't there), you're pathetic!" But I quickly realized that it's not just his dad, but it probably applies to many.
So blame today's fathers!:grinyes: Many adults don't appreciate anything that takes time and effort, and that includes cooking, home improvements and car repairs etc. Watching them, who could kids become remotely interested in doing things on their own?
Khier
11-26-2006, 04:04 PM
Willimo I disagree with you on many points.
It is true we did not perform a professional market analysis here, and all views written here cannot be justified by facts and numbers. However, there are some not bad indicators you can use. Just watch the size of model car kits on the shelves of hobby shops, toy stores and super markets. Do not you agree they are rapidly shrinking? and mostly replaced by die cast? What does that mean? That the hobby is expanding? I do not think so.
Die cast will never revive plastic kits in my opinion, just the opposite. If you are a collector who can get his ready built model by picking up from the store and you have interesting varity that fulfills your interests, why on earth would you spend time sanding, testing fit, cutting, polishing, ruining paint, stripping, starting allover again? Once a die cast collector is a die cast collector for good.
You mentioned the recent varity of interests and the difficulty of model manufacturers to keep with. Maybe, but how could die cast manufacturers cope with it? The answer is simple (again, my opinion), there is no demand. Be it because of the evil video games or otherwise does not matter. Low demand remains low demand regardless of the cause.
It is true we did not perform a professional market analysis here, and all views written here cannot be justified by facts and numbers. However, there are some not bad indicators you can use. Just watch the size of model car kits on the shelves of hobby shops, toy stores and super markets. Do not you agree they are rapidly shrinking? and mostly replaced by die cast? What does that mean? That the hobby is expanding? I do not think so.
Die cast will never revive plastic kits in my opinion, just the opposite. If you are a collector who can get his ready built model by picking up from the store and you have interesting varity that fulfills your interests, why on earth would you spend time sanding, testing fit, cutting, polishing, ruining paint, stripping, starting allover again? Once a die cast collector is a die cast collector for good.
You mentioned the recent varity of interests and the difficulty of model manufacturers to keep with. Maybe, but how could die cast manufacturers cope with it? The answer is simple (again, my opinion), there is no demand. Be it because of the evil video games or otherwise does not matter. Low demand remains low demand regardless of the cause.
drunken monkey
11-27-2006, 04:19 AM
the obvious thing i see here is that buying a prebuilt car is NOT THE SAME as building a model car and the two are not mutually exclusive: those who build models might also like to buy pre built cars (of whatever standard). the inverse can also be true.
however, some people who buy pre-built aren't interested in model building and just want to have the car and that's it. I don't see it as die cast killing model building, rather that model building, be it cars or planes or whatever is just a niche market and the numbers are always going to be small compared to pre-built (and I use this because pre-built doesn't always = die-casts) because the audience is different.
you buy a model kit for model builders.
model builders = small number
this is even smaller when you narrow it down to cars only.
you buy a pre-built for a car fan.
car fan = lots more than model builders.
to blame anything for an apparent decline is daft in my opinion and in my experience, totally invalid.
they say the same about video games killing off interest in proper martial arts and other sports activities and yet in the last 10 years, we still have the same number of people joining my classes every year. In fact, one of my classes has to turn people away because of space issues and is looking to add classes to accommodate more people.
on a similar line of thought, if simply having die-casts and video games (as in other things to do instead of model building) is what takes away interest in model building, then can't the same be said for ALL other activities?
of course this isn't true and to say so would be silly.
I'm 27.
I've been practicing martial arts since i was about 16.
I've been buidling model cars for about 4 years.
I've been playing video games since I was 14.
(there are also other things I do regularly such as travel, cook, go to cinema, paintball, go-karting, climbing, painting, photography, reading and other time consuming things taht cost too much money...)
I don't/haven't buy/bought a pre-built scale car.
Video games hasn't and doesn't play a part in whether or not I build models.
Video games hasn't and doesn't play a part in whether or not I go to a martial arts class.
Model car building hasn't and doesn't play a part in whether or not I buy a prebuilt scale car.
The general gist of it is that my interests are my own, based on their individual merit and none have any influence or bearing over the others or my interest in the others.
the point is, those who are interested in building models isn't going to have his interest swayed by pre-built cars being more readily available.
however, some people who buy pre-built aren't interested in model building and just want to have the car and that's it. I don't see it as die cast killing model building, rather that model building, be it cars or planes or whatever is just a niche market and the numbers are always going to be small compared to pre-built (and I use this because pre-built doesn't always = die-casts) because the audience is different.
you buy a model kit for model builders.
model builders = small number
this is even smaller when you narrow it down to cars only.
you buy a pre-built for a car fan.
car fan = lots more than model builders.
to blame anything for an apparent decline is daft in my opinion and in my experience, totally invalid.
they say the same about video games killing off interest in proper martial arts and other sports activities and yet in the last 10 years, we still have the same number of people joining my classes every year. In fact, one of my classes has to turn people away because of space issues and is looking to add classes to accommodate more people.
on a similar line of thought, if simply having die-casts and video games (as in other things to do instead of model building) is what takes away interest in model building, then can't the same be said for ALL other activities?
of course this isn't true and to say so would be silly.
I'm 27.
I've been practicing martial arts since i was about 16.
I've been buidling model cars for about 4 years.
I've been playing video games since I was 14.
(there are also other things I do regularly such as travel, cook, go to cinema, paintball, go-karting, climbing, painting, photography, reading and other time consuming things taht cost too much money...)
I don't/haven't buy/bought a pre-built scale car.
Video games hasn't and doesn't play a part in whether or not I build models.
Video games hasn't and doesn't play a part in whether or not I go to a martial arts class.
Model car building hasn't and doesn't play a part in whether or not I buy a prebuilt scale car.
The general gist of it is that my interests are my own, based on their individual merit and none have any influence or bearing over the others or my interest in the others.
the point is, those who are interested in building models isn't going to have his interest swayed by pre-built cars being more readily available.
Katsura
11-27-2006, 05:33 AM
Which staetment???....:confused: ... I noticed nothing...
Katsura, i do not regard the matter as 'modelling vs. video game war'. It is not about which is good and which is bad. Some colleagues blame video games for taking the younger generation away from our hobby, and I agree partially with these views.
But since we went that far from the original stream of the thread, I may allow myself to go a bit farther :). Video games, as anything else in this world, may become harmful when practiced with exaggaration. I am not a doctor but it is hard for me to imagine that most of jonior school shooters were obsessed by this kinds of games was a pure coincedence. I find it also difficult to imagine having severe mental tension concentrated on finger tips in a dark corner in fornt of bright screen where the feeling of day time are lost for several hours is constructive in any sense. For an hour or two it may be fun, but for 6-8 hours a day is addiction in my opinion. Being a former sinner who played space invaders and packman (is there someone here who still remembers these titles?), and Ocarina of time for hours does not make such practice healthy :).
Hi Khier, thanks for offering your opinion it's very interesting to read your view point.
For the school shooters, may i offer an alternative explanation rather than the direct game/ anti-social behaviour link? It's rather a case of cause and effect. Rather than blame it on the games (that cause) these kits to have anti-social behaviours and go do soemthing crazy, would it not be equally probably that they have some form of depression tendencies (from family pressure, school pressure, etc), which resulkted in their anti-social, and thus, lock themselves in their room and play games 8~10 hours a day? Which in turn, lead to more problems?
As any hobby, and a participate/ reward situation, computer games, like gambling, drinking, smoking etc can become excessive and additive, for most well balaced adults, they have enough self control to prevent themselves from spending too much time on one single activity. As for kids, their prarents/ teachers etc should give them guidelines on the appropriate approach to addictive activities.
So like we can't belave alcohol for people become alcoholic, we can't blame games for turning kids into gaming zombies. If someone did 8~10 hours of plastic modelling (if it's not their job!) every day of the week I'd say that's excessive behaviour too :).
Anyway, this is becoming on the verge of completely OT, so I'll just stop here. :)
P.S> Space Invaders and Pacman are milestones in gaming history and recently they have been revived as mobile phone games. There is a huge retro gaming crowd. So feel pround to tell the youngsters you played the original on the REAL thing arcade carbinets :).
Katsura, i do not regard the matter as 'modelling vs. video game war'. It is not about which is good and which is bad. Some colleagues blame video games for taking the younger generation away from our hobby, and I agree partially with these views.
But since we went that far from the original stream of the thread, I may allow myself to go a bit farther :). Video games, as anything else in this world, may become harmful when practiced with exaggaration. I am not a doctor but it is hard for me to imagine that most of jonior school shooters were obsessed by this kinds of games was a pure coincedence. I find it also difficult to imagine having severe mental tension concentrated on finger tips in a dark corner in fornt of bright screen where the feeling of day time are lost for several hours is constructive in any sense. For an hour or two it may be fun, but for 6-8 hours a day is addiction in my opinion. Being a former sinner who played space invaders and packman (is there someone here who still remembers these titles?), and Ocarina of time for hours does not make such practice healthy :).
Hi Khier, thanks for offering your opinion it's very interesting to read your view point.
For the school shooters, may i offer an alternative explanation rather than the direct game/ anti-social behaviour link? It's rather a case of cause and effect. Rather than blame it on the games (that cause) these kits to have anti-social behaviours and go do soemthing crazy, would it not be equally probably that they have some form of depression tendencies (from family pressure, school pressure, etc), which resulkted in their anti-social, and thus, lock themselves in their room and play games 8~10 hours a day? Which in turn, lead to more problems?
As any hobby, and a participate/ reward situation, computer games, like gambling, drinking, smoking etc can become excessive and additive, for most well balaced adults, they have enough self control to prevent themselves from spending too much time on one single activity. As for kids, their prarents/ teachers etc should give them guidelines on the appropriate approach to addictive activities.
So like we can't belave alcohol for people become alcoholic, we can't blame games for turning kids into gaming zombies. If someone did 8~10 hours of plastic modelling (if it's not their job!) every day of the week I'd say that's excessive behaviour too :).
Anyway, this is becoming on the verge of completely OT, so I'll just stop here. :)
P.S> Space Invaders and Pacman are milestones in gaming history and recently they have been revived as mobile phone games. There is a huge retro gaming crowd. So feel pround to tell the youngsters you played the original on the REAL thing arcade carbinets :).
rsxse240
11-27-2006, 10:11 AM
wow, this has gone on alot further than I thought it would.
points made: games are addictive, we are all geeks, school sucks, no one on here cares much for diecasts, oh, yeah and, O'Doyle rules!!
points made: games are addictive, we are all geeks, school sucks, no one on here cares much for diecasts, oh, yeah and, O'Doyle rules!!
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