The GTO...what's the problem?

Okay here's the scoop, I NEED a brand new car, or atleast -20k miles, because I've never had new technology at my fingertips before, I need it. I wanted a V8, and you can guess I can't afford the vette, but I think I could swing a leftover/preowned GTO. I understand that it had a very short run, didn't sell well and generally people didn't like. Well why?

The most appealing thing to me is it has the C6 engine (LS2), and so what if it's not a corvette? It has a BACK SEAT!!! I don't really like how it looks but it's not ugly. It's almost a cobalt with a V8 and rear wheel drive. But everywhere I look, people don't like it. Even with having the vette engine I could barely find a fast one on the net, I found a 9 second, but only one.

Other cars I thought about: Monte Carlo SS, because it's NASCAR, but it's front wheel drive, same problem with the grand prix, and that has no stickshift??? gotta be standard for me. The 03 mustangs look cool, but I don't like the new mustangs, at all. Did they stop in 04 or 05? It should be a practical car, speed is a must though. I want something almost brand new, or brand new. I always say I'm going to buy a car well this time I mean it. No more old cars for me, that I trust with my life.

No problem with the GTO. I drove one owned by my friend and not only is the interior amazing but the 400 hp is great. I love the car personally, but some people don't like the grand prix look to it. I would personally love to own one.

The only problem w/ the car is the name. If Pontiac would have called it something else, it would have sold. People didnt see the original GTO in it, and therefore, didnt like it. I was the same way,....at first. But now i really like the car. I've heard great things about them, and thay look great too. Also you can get them pretty cheap even though it's a 400hp beast. i say buy one, de-badge it, and call it a Holden Manero.

Yeah, the “failure” of the GTO is a crying shame, and I can’t help but wonder if things would have worked out better if they had called it something else. I guess I’m a weirdo, but I actually think the GTO is one of the best looking cars in GM’s line up, and probably has the nicest interior ever offered in the U.S. by GM this side of a Cadillac. The great thing about the general dislike of the GTO is prices you can get used ones for. Last I heard, dealers were willing to give a pretty good whack off of the price of new ones, too.

On the downside… I have also heard about some reliability issues from the GTO, and the last issue of Consumer Reports I looked at gave it a big black mark in that category.

There’s always gotta be a catch, doesn’t there?
:frown:

i like the gto, a littel bland, but a cool car all around. if you have to have an affordable, new, v8 sports car, my first choice would be the mustang, but second would be the gto. although a slightly older corvette will prolly be close in price to the gto.

As mentioned before, the biggest problem with the GTO is styling. For many sports car buyers, styling is more important then anything and the GTO follows the exact same design scheme as a Grand Prix or other mediocre Pontiacs of the late 90's early 2000's.

The biggest group of people that buy sports cars is men in their mid-life crisis (~40-55). They have the desire to relive their youth, but much more money to throw around. The names Mustang, Challenger, and GTO conjure memories of the 1960's and 70's. These same people crave cars to remind them of this era. When you see a 05+ Mustang, you can't help but think of the origional, but when you see a GTO you think, "thats not a GTO, thats a Grand Prix." Pontiac probably could have put the LS7 in that car and it still wouldn't have sold much better. Now, for people that actually want a powerful coupe with standard everyday GM quality, the GTO is a steal because of the huge surplus.

I hate to use this but use the "how many times will a girl look at you" factor. I would be willing to bet that if you drove a GTO past a group of girls you wouldn't get as many looks as you would get in a V6 Mustang non-convertable.

the only problem i have with them is the bland styling likeothers stated. it's hard to differentiate it from an older GTP from the front. the performance is there though. i heard they're going to re-release it in a few years after a restyling.

the only problem i have with them is the bland styling likeothers stated. it's hard to differentiate it from an older GTP from the front. the performance is there though. i heard they're going to re-release it in a few years after a restyling.

I heard the same too, probably on the same platform as the Camaro.

I heard that as well, it will essentially be replacing the firebird/transam

i beleive they are doing the new 09 gto in retro as well, big suprise eh, i think it looks kinda goofy from the concept ive seen. i say build off the current platform and add in some sharper lines and more aggressive styling.

I saw an older concept of the GTO, but not the new one. I'll have to check it out.

If I was you, I would just buy the 5.7 and call it a day.

I'm actually thinking about waiting to see what the new gto looks like, or maybe...the philosophized rwd Impala???

Looks boring but is actually quite good. Go for it.

The problem with the GTO is not the car itself, just the country that it was rebadged for.

The demographic that the GTO tended to be aimed at was the 40-65 year old buyer, GM'd love to tell you they had younger buyers in mind, but it just wasn't the case. This market are usually in the midst of a mid-life crisis and trying to think back to thier youth when the Chargers and Mustang fastbacks of this world roamed American streets, they're the type of people that are pushing this whole Retro thing, however the GTO looked NOTHING like the old Judge of 1970 with it's wings and hoodscoops, so the Yanks stayed away. The general market of America don't like change, it's why American makers have been aprehensive to try new technologies and it's why the cars designed for US consumption are mostly generic and boring looking.

However it was actually GM's best product at the time (Holden is by far GM's most competent division), it handles well, it is extremely quick, it's well built, comfortable and cheap (And I myself think quite good
looking). It was always marketing failure rather than an engineering failure

Hopefully when the VE Holden Commodore SS-V goes to the States this time around as the Pontiac Grand Prix (Looks like this deal is going ahead), people will be smarter and realise a good car despite its' lack of hood scoops and spoilers.

The problem with the GTO is not the car itself, just the country that it was rebadged for.

The demographic that the GTO tended to be aimed at was the 40-65 year old buyer, GM'd love to tell you they had younger buyers in mind, but it just wasn't the case. This market are usually in the midst of a mid-life crisis and trying to think back to thier youth when the Chargers and Mustang fastbacks of this world roamed American streets, they're the type of people that are pushing this whole Retro thing, however the GTO looked NOTHING like the old Judge of 1970 with it's wings and hoodscoops, so the Yanks stayed away. The general market of America don't like change, it's why American makers have been aprehensive to try new technologies and it's why the cars designed for US consumption are mostly generic and boring looking.

However it was actually GM's best product at the time (Holden is by far GM's most competent division), it handles well, it is extremely quick, it's well built, comfortable and cheap (And I myself think quite good
looking). It was always marketing failure rather than an engineering failure

Hopefully when the VE Holden Commodore SS-V goes to the States this time around as the Pontiac Grand Prix (Looks like this deal is going ahead), people will be smarter and realise a good car despite its' lack of hood scoops and spoilers.

I think you are letting GM off the hook far too easily on this one. When the 04 GTO showed up it was a very good all around car dynamically. Unfortunately, it also had questionable brakes, acceleration that wasn't nearly as good as it should have been given the moniker and the price tag (an 05-07 Mustang GT will be a favorite in any drag race....a WRX STi, Lancer Evo, or 03-04 Mustang Cobra will leave the 04 GTO like the Pontiac was tied to a pole) and in the manual version, a shifter that was so bad it was impossible to excuse in a car asking this much money.

Okay, pretty simple here. Whatever the target demographic really was the bang for the buck crowd was out when those numbers rolled in. And for those who don't like to crunch hard numbers the 04 GTO didn't feel very quick either.

So what about the older demographic you mention? Let's divide them into two sets for the sake of argument. First, the practicality group. These guys get the muscle car they always grew up wanting, but this time it's practical and has all the luxury features that they expect. But wait, it doesn't. As mentioned above get a manual tranny and the shifter is a constant source of angst. So what some say....buy an aftermarket. The problem is, we are now dealing with a demographic that is unlikely to throw aftermarket parts at their car.

But wait, it gets worse. The trunk is like a bad joke. The GTO driver's blessing could well be "may all your luggage be soft, and your golf clubs few", because there isn't room for much. Ah, but wait, the back seat is surprisingly large and comfy. Good thing too, cause all the stuff these guys thought they were going to put in the trunk will undoubtedly have to go there. Which begs the question, where to put the other two people?

Finally, you could only get the GTO loaded, which seems like no bad thing until you realize what is missing. I know two people who were in the process of ordering GTO's when they asked that dreaded question "how much for a sunroof?". Oh, but of course, the GTO doesn't have one. Excusable, apparently not since neither of those people bought one. Apparently Pontiac missed the memo, this really isn't a Mustang. While that car can get away without a roof, even though it shouldn't, due to target audience the GTO obviously needed one. For reference count how many 3-Series coupes you see running around without a roof.....you likely wont need more than one hand for a few months at least.

Now on to your 'styling and power' group trying to relive the muscle car era and who don't really need for the Goat to be practicle. Obviously, the GTO's not scoring many points here until the 05 model shows up, when it gets the power it needs. But the GTO still fails in 05 trim for several reasons. First, as you mention the styling was controversial and, IMO, a bit lazy even when compared to sedate competitors. Also worth mentioning is that the shifter was still awful, even though by this time the car had wonderful brakes and had become more than fast enough.

These problems aside, even these mid-life crisis buyers are unlikely to look kindly on the ridiculous trunk and oddly missing roof mentioned above. Why you ask? Because, if this truly is a "toy" representing disposable income, and in that demographic it obviously would be, most of these guys likely have enough dough to buy a Vette. Considering the fact that the Goat really wasn't as practicle as it should have been what attraction did the car hold for most of these guys over a Vette? No, they wouldn't need the Goat to haul the kinds, etc. But they might want to be able to haul their buddies to the golf course on the weekends or take a weekend trip with the wife......they want to show off their toy for sure.....but the GTO was really no better suited for these tasks than was a Vette.

And the most damning issue of all, the 04 had already earned the new Goat a reputation as a dud before the 05 ever had a chance to fix it, an issue which hurt the GTO with every potential customer.

Plain and simple GM blew it.

The GTO was awesome. I would certainly consider one in a couple years.

The GTO was awesome. I would certainly consider one in a couple years.

I certainly respect your opinion, but the GTO was obviously a failure and cars don't fail for no reason. And frankly, the styling argument alone doesn't cover it.

I actually like the car as well. In fact, when my brother was new car shopping (he's 44) I convinced him to go the Pontiac dealership and drive an 05. He loved the power, loved the handling, loved the comfort.....everything I expected.

He also hated ths shifter, wanted to know how much it would cost him to get a sunroof, blurted out "what the hell is that" when they opened the trunk so he could take a peek (and this was obviously a known sore spot for the dealer since I had to ask them to do so....twice)

In the end he ended up buying something else because the GTO not more practical in reality than his first, and more expensive choice. And while it may seem like I'm basing my argument against the GTO primarily on my brother's experience, I had predicted that he, and others like him, would have all of these problems before we ever made it to the dealership.

Who would be surprised that these guys would be unhappy about these issues?

So your issues are the shifter (I thought it was fine), lack of sunroof, and poor trunk space. I too respect your opinions but to me that does not make the car a failure. It has so many positive attributes that I really don't think those small items hurt it. I personally believe that it wasn't marketed correctly, wasn't styled quite aggressively enough, and was priced just a few grand too high.

^ i agree with gt2000 on thios one. no sun roof is really not a big deal to me. and a lack of trunk space is certainly not important to most who want this car. i wouldnt know anything about the shifter though, but id imagine it cant be too bad.

The GTO was extremely popular in every market it went into, except the US.
Infact the Ausies simply couldn't produce enough to meet the demand, even though it flopped in the US.

Does that indicate a problem with the car, or the market it was being sold in?
The Small boot was a result of an arcane US law that prevents fuel tanks from being put under boot.
Don't know why people care complaining about the gear shift, Iv never heard this mentioned anywhere else. Its the same gear box thats in the Corvette, and a number of other cars and they never seem to have any problems.
Prehaps a movement was a little more preciese than Americans are used to?
The Styling was very subjective, but I wonder if people simply got to hung up on the history of the name, and tried to compare two cars built 40 years apart?
It seems that car design has evolved everywhere on the planet, but in the US, where the coolest cars all look like they did 40 years ago, and anyone who tries to be design something new gets rediculed.

The GTO was extremely popular in every market it went into, except the US.
Infact the Ausies simply couldn't produce enough to meet the demand, even though it flopped in the US.

Does that indicate a problem with the car, or the market it was being sold in?
The Small boot was a result of an arcane US law that prevents fuel tanks from being put under boot.
Don't know why people care complaining about the gear shift, Iv never heard this mentioned anywhere else. Its the same gear box thats in the Corvette, and a number of other cars and they never seem to have any problems.
Prehaps a movement was a little more preciese than Americans are used to?
The Styling was very subjective, but I wonder if people simply got to hung up on the history of the name, and tried to compare two cars built 40 years apart?
It seems that car design has evolved everywhere on the planet, but in the US, where the coolest cars all look like they did 40 years ago, and anyone who tries to be design something new gets rediculed.



I saw nothing wrong with the shifter in the LS2 GTO I drove. "shifter feel" can be viewed as subjective in some situations so I really didn't want to argue that aspect.

The Small boot was a result of an arcane US law that prevents fuel tanks from being put under boot.

Uh...hows that again? I can think of at least a half dozen cars in a few seconds that have a gas tank under the trunk.

The GTO was extremely popular in every market it went into, except the US.
Infact the Ausies simply couldn't produce enough to meet the demand, even though it flopped in the US.

Does that indicate a problem with the car, or the market it was being sold in?
The Small boot was a result of an arcane US law that prevents fuel tanks from being put under boot.
Don't know why people care complaining about the gear shift, Iv never heard this mentioned anywhere else. Its the same gear box thats in the Corvette, and a number of other cars and they never seem to have any problems.
Prehaps a movement was a little more preciese than Americans are used to?
The Styling was very subjective, but I wonder if people simply got to hung up on the history of the name, and tried to compare two cars built 40 years apart?
It seems that car design has evolved everywhere on the planet, but in the US, where the coolest cars all look like they did 40 years ago, and anyone who tries to be design something new gets rediculed.

First, so the problem with the GTO's trunk isn't GM's hack and stash method for making the car complay with U.S. safety standards, but U.S. safety standards themselves? C'mon.

And the same M12 T56 employed in the GTO was indeed likewise employed in the C5 Z06. Of course, it used a completely different shifter mechanism seeing as how the tranny in the Vette is behind the driver, and the drive-shaft for that matter. As for the shifter being a shoddy piece of work. I've yet to see a review in a major car rag that didn't trash the shifter, or speak to somebody who drove one and didn't agree for that matter. And the fact that the shifterstunk in both the GTO's I have driven I'd have to say they are on to something.

As for the styling, the continual excuses for what was effectively a very dated looking car get old. The 04 GTO looked more like something from 1994. But it failed for far more reasons than simply that.

First, so the problem with the GTO's trunk isn't GM's hack and stash method for making the car complay with U.S. safety standards, but U.S. safety standards themselves? C'mon.

And the same M12 T56 employed in the GTO was indeed likewise employed in the C5 Z06. Of course, it used a completely different shifter mechanism seeing as how the tranny in the Vette is behind the driver, and the drive-shaft for that matter. As for the shifter being a shoddy piece of work. I've yet to see a review in a major car rag that didn't trash the shifter, or speak to somebody who drove one and didn't agree for that matter. And the fact that the shifterstunk in both the GTO's I have driven I'd have to say they are on to something.

As for the styling, the continual excuses for what was effectively a very dated looking car get old. The 04 GTO looked more like something from 1994. But it failed for far more reasons than simply that.

The T56 is in a lot of cars. Its in the Viper, the 03-04 Cobra, Shelby GT500, C5 and C6 vettes, 6speed equiped Fbodys and CTS-V. I haven't read anything that was overly critical of the shifter. I myself have driven one and really saw nothing wrong with it.

.........but U.S. safety standards themselves? C'mon.



Holdens original placement of the fuel tank didn't seem to bother anyone else in the world. :rolleyes:


As for the shifter, so far its only real complaint about the car Iv heard, and so it seems to be only becoming from Americans, I'm guessing via their automotive media. It all sounds like rather pathetic nit-picking.
Digging for a reason not to like what is actually a very good car, certainly better built than anything that comes out of the states.