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B18 Buildup (unfamiliar territory)
11-08-2006, 11:41 AM
I'm not from around these parts on AF (please don't bash)
I'm here to ask questions, I'm helping a buddy of mine get his engine up to par...
Background, he has had an oil leak, that recently got big, and made lots of smoke. He got that fixed but it still smokes. His mechanic said it's the rings. (I've already told him to compression test it and what-not)...
So, I told him while he's in there getting the rings replaced, why not build it up... slap a small turbo on it and be good to go... (I have a 14B I'm probably going to replace, but I need bigger injectors, so I'll probably sell him my 450's)
so, to run the 14b, what would he need?
I've looked on Summit and found an Arias piston/ring kit for $350 (special)... and I think that would do wonders for him, they're light and drop the compression (http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=ARA%2D3320001&N=700+4294907534+4294907533+4294924755+115&autoview=sku)
I also was wondering what his stock rods and crank would handle.
Will he need anything done to the top end of his motor?
I'm pretty sure he will need a fuel pump (255lPH) and most likely an FPR...
Any thing else I'm missing (I can get all the piping/flanges fabricated)
11-09-2006, 06:41 PM
well it all depends on how much power he wants to make... and which b18 does he have?? please be more specific on what he wants and what he has...
11-09-2006, 09:54 PM
Sorry for not being so specific...
He has a 1995 Integra GSR (I know it's a b18C, I'm assuming it's the B18C1)
We're looking at 350 to the crank. We're looking to boost 12-15lbs (I say We, b/c I'm helping him build and tune the car)
We wanna do this cheap, but not so cheap it's not reliable. This car will be a daily driver (driven every other day, he also has an '04 Civic Si)
I'm looking at a/b $1500 for his turbo build up (I'm guessing, but I don't know what the stock block/internals will hold)
$150 for my 450 injectors and 14b (stock 1g DSM)
$100 for custom flanges and pipes (friend who's a welder)
$350 for Arias pistons/rings
$250 SAFC II
$200 assorted gauges( A/F, Boost)
$100 fuel pump
plus the money to get the block bored over and the pistons installed
And later on, a new clutch, and some bigger axles... as well as rims and tires w/traction...
11-10-2006, 03:37 AM
you'll never hit those power numbers on a 14b.....if you're going to go less than 300whp, just rebuild w/ stock internals, but if he plans to use a good turbo setup and make 350-425whp i would go w/ an Eagle and CP combo.
11-10-2006, 07:03 AM
ya, the b18c1 internals are supposed to be good up to 350whp, since you only want 350 chp... which will most likely be about 275whp (thats a guess) you should be within the relm.... so save some money and leave the stock internals. Use the money you save to hire a tuner to get it perfect.
11-10-2006, 08:16 AM
OK, what would the 14b be good to?
^I also have a Garret (T3) 50 Trim (42AR compressor side, .63 exhaust, I b/l)... what if I were to sell him that, would he be better off (I mean of course, but what hp could we squeeze out of it then?)
^this is why I'm still in the research phase... I've got a/b 250whp in my Talon with the 14b, which is a/b 290 chp... So I thought he'd have higher compression and would be able to squeeze more power out of it.
11-10-2006, 02:08 PM
Ok, I talked to him. He's wanting about 300 crank hp. so I'm assuming that the 14b would be good enough to get him there.
I don't know anything about tuning Hondas, especially playing around with V-Tec.
So with a 300hp goal, you say go stock rebuild. (we might only need the rings), and with stock compression it would handle the 300hp. If he decides to go with the Arias pistons, should he go ahead and drop compression?
Also, what is the stock compression. B/c with turbo cars, I'm used to seeing high 7(7.8:1)-low 9(9.1:1) compression.
I figured while he was in there, he should go ahead and build the motor, b/c I'm sure he'll eventually want to go bigger. (or at least that's how I am)
11-10-2006, 03:11 PM
in order to make 300whp on a 14b, you're going to be pushing it WAY to hard...i would worry about detonation problems at that point. Personally i would use something larger at a lower boost....that's about the only way to make a lot of power on a stock internal Honda. I made 275whp on a T3/T4E 60 trim and i'm hoping for about 330-350whp on my new 60-1.....use something larger....if you have more questions, let me know....i dont have a lot of time to answer them right now...lol
11-10-2006, 03:17 PM
Well, I'm making ~290 on the stock internals of my Talon w/17lbs boost on the 14b (FMIC, and fuel upgrades of course)...
hm... I'll look around for some deals on turbos... know of anyone who sells turbo's cheap?
So we're looking at between a 57 trim and 63 trim (57, 60, or 63)... I bought my 50 trim for $85 (shipped), but that was because it was a second chance offer and the other guy didn't have the money.
So I should tell him to stay stock?
Then look at buying all the necessary supporting mods, then slapping the turbo on lastly. That's the way I'm seeing all of this going down.
11-10-2006, 03:35 PM
just make an overall good setup....i can get you the list of parts it took me to make 275whp reliably if you'd like.
11-10-2006, 03:39 PM
yeah... that would be awesome... then I can start price shopping.
Also, what kind of fuel upgrades are we looking at (fuel pump size, injector size, fpr?)
and what's the best tuning programs for this... I'll probably sell him my SAFCII and get DSMLink for myself.
11-10-2006, 03:57 PM
My first setup:
SPoolin Performance log manifold (AC and PS compatible)
Garrett T3/T04E 60 trim .63ar
2.5" AC compatible DP
2.5" charge piping
Tial 50mm bov
Tial 38mm wastegate
chipped P28 tuned on Crome
tuned on 9psi by DB Performance
11-10-2006, 04:01 PM
how much did your setup cost you?
oh and on those injectors, (stock are saturated), would they be high-imp or low? or will that be automatically selected if I tell them it's a '95 Integra GSR...
I'll probably start him around 4-5 psi, and work our way up. There's not too many people out here who can tune, and I don't trust just anyone with my car (so I wouldn't be doing anything less for him).
Oh, and I have someone to help fabricate the piping ,that should be no big deal...
11-10-2006, 09:20 PM
with the exhaust, tuning, clutch and the whole setup....it cost me about $2500. All of the stuff i bought was new too....
11-10-2006, 11:00 PM
Ok, I got back with him and he's insisting on the 14b, what numbers can I expect out of this (to give me/him a comparison).
I think the reason he's really considering this turbo is b/c he's seen my car haul ass, and he knows the turbo isn't trashed. I do know that there may be some issues with running coolant lines, as the Garrets are oil-cooled only, but the Mitsu 14b is also water-cooled.
If I have some numbers to go back to him and compare, then he may reconsider. I don't think he's going balls to the wall, he just wants to push a little more hp than stock, and forced induction sounds so sweet. For him to run this 14b, we're looking at ~$1k... and that's more along his price line at the moment. He may decide to go much bigger after he has a turbo, or he may decide that's too much power and drop it.
I do know that the 14b is a small turbo and will spool almost instantly. I have 2.5" exhaust on the Talon and am feeling the 17lbs of boost by 2200 RPMs. For me there's traction issues, but if we are able to get him hooked up with this quick a turbo, we'll probably spring a little more for a dual stage boost controller.
I'm still considering that list you gave me, but I told him what you said and he seems pretty set on this 14b. Would that at least put him into say the 13sec range? and how much boost could we see on the stock setup? (oh and I know for a fact the 14b's will handle a/b 18psi safely(for a daily), ~20-21 (for a short race, this mostly depends on the motor, race gas, and size of the FMIC).
11-11-2006, 12:06 AM
you could make some good power on the 14b but i dont think i'd push it very hard....i think i'd push it on 13-15psi and net about 230-250whp
11-11-2006, 09:46 AM
OK, I'll tell him and see what he says a/b that
11-11-2006, 01:10 PM
i just dont know how hard i would push a little turbo like the 14b because as soon as it gets out of its efficiency range and the air becomes ridiculously hot, you might start to have problems.
On my stock internal setup, i'm using a T3/60-1.....that's a LOT bigger than a 14b. To make this comparison more real...here is a picture of my 60-1, my old T3/T04E 60 trim and a K26 which is larger than a 14b
11-13-2006, 08:24 AM
but you still think we can run it to make an extra 30-40hp (over stock?)
11-13-2006, 11:12 AM
you can easily make 100whp over stock with that turbo. I personally would look for about 230-240whp out of it safely. If he wanted to get something slightly larger, you could push it a little harder too
11-13-2006, 11:19 AM
I'm gonna see what he says, but I'm almost certain he's gonna wanna stay w/the 14b... I've been too busy this weekend to do anything... I got a house on Thursday, lights on Friday, and moved Sat/Sun... damn...
Alright, well... with the matter of a turbo waiting on his reply, what about the injectors. I know how to get the 450's from my Talon to fit (resistor boxes and shaving the key off the connector). Is there any other injectors that would be direct drop-ins I could buy for cheap?
^I will probably sell him my FMIC (b/c I will most likely need a bigger one, w/the 50-trim).
I'm also going to sell him the SAFCII... That will put me a helluva lot closer to having my car the way I want it (AFPR, DSMLink, 650's, 50-trim, and larger FMIC)...
11-13-2006, 04:32 PM
DSM's are the only cheap injectors for a Honda application...and honestly, it would be more beneficial to him to use an SMIC since there would be less pressure drop on that little turbo
11-13-2006, 04:38 PM
ok... sounds easy enough...
How a/b a stock DSM sidemount???
11-13-2006, 05:35 PM
that's what we're using on our 2.3L K26 build...
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