This still amazes me! They see that thier sales are down over 30% and yet they still not only produce more of that model but extended and branch off versions of the SUV! What is wrong with american companies I'm getting sick of this. People with SUV's can get rid of their old ones fast enough so why are they making more!

Beacuse SUV's and trucks are the cash cows and are the only thing keeping the American companies heads above water. They know they can't produce competitive products in the car market, so they rely on SUV's. Although I do think their cars are on the way to better build quality, it's gonna take a while.

supply and demand.

Probably because they can't make a competent car that is able to be class competitive so they just cash in on the fact that there's a pocket of American society that is so overly concerned with having as huge and impractical a vehicle as impossible that they will buy the biggest and ugliest SUV they can find.


Meanwhile they don't realise that it takes more than stuffing a whole heap of "hip-cool" gadgets in a car to make it a good car. Case in point the piss-weak Dodge Caliber.

strange.
to me, this is a post about cars and manufacturers.
so why is it in "off topic"?

i'm going to move this somewhere more appropriate.

It's current affairs and has to do with the economy.

because thats what most americans like. a pity really.

So you'll bitch about it. That's why.

I heard that GM will be offering V8 diesel engines for their full size SUV's by 2010, reportedly they will be able to achieve 28mpg city and will pass emissions in all 50 states. About time SUV's started getting diesels - now if they could only be persuaded to offer a proper inline 6 engine instead.

You mean to tell me most US market SUV's are petrol powered?



Sweet fuck, there's a useless combination...

You mean to tell me most US market SUV's are petrol powered?

most? practically all of them are petrol.

Yes, except for the Hummer H1, every other new SUV sold in america has a petrol engine. Some, like the yukon XL and suburban have engine sizes that range from 5.3L (smallest, 15mpg) to 8.1L (largest, ~7-9mpg). The 8.1L is said to tow up to 12,000 pounds max.

Yes, except for the Hummer H1, every other new SUV sold in america has a petrol engine. Some, like the yukon XL and suburban have engine sizes that range from 5.3L (smallest, 15mpg) to 8.1L (largest, ~7-9mpg). The 8.1L is said to tow up to 12,000 pounds max.

That's it? Shit. A lexus SUV can haul 3/4's of that with a 4.7 liter. What gives?

Anyway yeah jimster. I'll see a diesel powered SUV here maybe once a year. Even pickup trucks are predominatley gasoline. Its too bad that the EPA is run by a bunch of idiots here, we have ONE option for diesel powered passenger cars here, and that's the shitty volkswagen line. OH yeah, and you can't even buy them new in california or most of the northeastern states because its a "dirty diesel". But due to loopholes, you CAN buy a pickup truck with a 6 liter diesel that puts out a lot more exhaust than probably 5 of those TDI's combined.

I'm looking forward to the U.S. finally implementing ULSD then the auto companies can start importing the nice diesel passenger cars and small pickups. I want a goddamn Accord 2.2 i-CTDi or a Hilux. I would kill for a hilux right now.

Lets not forget that even though the American companies pioneered the SUV craze, the Japanese and the germans are also cranking out all kinds of SUVs as well in an attempt to jump on the band wagon.

Add to that the fact that car manufacturers in this country closed or re-tooled many factories that once made cars in order to make more SUVs. It's going to take a hell of a long time and money to re-tool them back to making cars, which cuts into their bottom line.

Most Americans can't give up their 25 cupholders, V8, 8 passenger tanks. They cant be bothered to drive a small, slow, fuel efficient vehicle and save a lot of money so they can buy their kids more video games and lunchables.

Lets not forget that even though the American companies pioneered the SUV craze, the Japanese and the germans are also cranking out all kinds of SUVs as well in an attempt to jump on the band wagon.
They're doing this because they know that they can sell them in the US for big profit, they're not jumping on the bandwagon so to say, they just are taking advantage of a large profit incentive. Some SUV's aren't even sold in the home country of the companies, and if they are, usually have a smaller/more fuel efficient engine.

Lets not forget that even though the American companies pioneered the SUV craze, the Japanese and the germans are also cranking out all kinds of SUVs as well in an attempt to jump on the band wagon.

i like how the largely independent german car firms producing at most 2 SUV type vehicles in their model range and the same for the japanese companies are equated to "cranking out all kids of SUVs"

how many SUVs does ford have in their entire range?
how many does GM have?

how many does bmw have?
how many does audi/vw have?
how many do the japanese companies have?

cranking out?
how many years did porsche spend on developing their ONE SUV?
how long has the Honda HRV and Toyota Rav4 been on the market?

actually, toyota has a shit load of suvs, the highlander, rav4, 4 runner, fj cruiser, and sequoia. thats 5 suvs, and they are claiming to be an environmentally friendly company, blah.

actually, toyota has a shit load of suvs, the highlander, rav4, 4 runner, fj cruiser, and sequoia. thats 5 suvs, and they are claiming to be an environmentally friendly company, blah.
Indeed. But they sell most of them in the environmentally unfriendly USA, so it kinda balances out.

i like how the largely independent german car firms producing at most 2 SUV type vehicles in their model range and the same for the japanese companies are equated to "cranking out all kids of SUVs"

how many SUVs does ford have in their entire range?
how many does GM have?

how many does bmw have?
how many does audi/vw have?
how many do the japanese companies have?

cranking out?
how many years did porsche spend on developing their ONE SUV?
how long has the Honda HRV and Toyota Rav4 been on the market?


Ask yourself how many SUV's these companies had 8 years ago. They are in deed cranking them out. Sure the American companies have more, but the Japanese, Germans and every other company has launched either more than one or their first SUVs just to get on the band wagon....yes I will say it again. Calling it "taking advantage of a market" is the same thing as jumping on the band wagon. I am not even going to start making a list of all the new japanese and other makes SUV's and trucks...it would quickly get long.
I am no more a fan of SUVs than I am of cancer, but lets be real here. If people buy SUV's than manufacturers will build them, and thats why all of them have started......including the ever pure sports car maker Porsche.

but saying it like that is still not taking into account the amount of work that goes into the development of the european SUV type vehicles, especially when compared to the US equivilants which really are "cranked out".

best examples are the VW touareg and Porsche Cayenne.
I recall a Cayenne hustling an Evo on a race track. Not exactly a churned out SUV now is it?
In anycase, those two, as well the others such as the X5 and the MB M Klass cars are arguably based on the Range Rovers and various Landrover models.

Who invented the SUV again?

actually, toyota has a shit load of suvs, the highlander, rav4, 4 runner, fj cruiser, and sequoia. thats 5 suvs, and they are claiming to be an environmentally friendly company, blah.


add onto that the Landcruiser/LX470, the Landcruiser Prado/GX470, and the RX350...


There's also Nissan with the Quaqshi, X-Trail, Pathfinder, QX56, FX35/45 Murano, Patrol, Amarda (Insert all the US-specific SUV's here).


Basically Americans are not the only ones doing it, but they're the only ones doing it because they can't make a competent family car otherwise....

Its really not fair to compare the Porsche SUV to an Explorer. As impressive as it is that a road boat like the Cheyenne could hustle an Evo, I really don't think its changes the fact that American car companies aren't the only ones making SUV's by the bus load now. The fact that Porsche would even start making one is crazy. Regardless of quality level or performance, the fact now is that SUVs aren't just an american majority anymore and that the inherant impracticalities are no longer shared by the big 3 and a handful of foreign models.

the fact now is that SUVs aren't just an american majority anymore and that the inherant impracticalities are no longer shared by the big 3 and a handful of foreign models.
It's also because the big 3 (ford, GM, Daimler-chrysler) are actually the owners of a lot of import companies now, so they'll market an "import" SUV to the public and gain the support of an even larger segment of the population, while all the profit goes to them eventually.

Ford = mazda
Gm = toyota

Simple terms anyways...

The fact that porsche made an SUV really does show that they are in a sence conforming to the "american way".

How does GM=Toyota?

How does GM=Toyota?
It doesn't. Toyota is actually one of the few independent auto manufacturers still around today. This website which Curtis posted the other day, http://www.globalauto.org/global.htm lists which auto companys owns who.


The fact that porsche made an SUV really does show that they are in a sence conforming to the "american way".
Truth be told, I was in Germany about 1 year before the Cayenne came to the USA and the porsche dealers were already selling and advertising the Cayenne over there. It was their centerpiece in a porsche dealer I visited. It was already being sold Europe before it made it's way here. (but that still doesn't mean it's a good vehicle, come on... a porsche truck?:screwy: )

Ford = mazda
Gm = toyota

the irony is that for a while, it looked like Toyota was looking to buy (or was it buy into?)GM, which it could quite easily.

how did that round of talks go anyway?
the last i heard Lutz was rather annoyed that one of the executives essentially went behind his back and talked to toyota.
how did the renault partnership work out?

Lets not forget that even though the American companies pioneered the SUV craze, the Japanese and the germans are also cranking out all kinds of SUVs as well in an attempt to jump on the band wagon.

No, American did not poineer the SUV thing.

i believe the first SUV-type thing was developed by audi and it was built for mulitary.

Audi poineered 4 wheel drive in road cars. a guy in Audi GmbH was testing various cars in the snow, he found that although it had much less power and much mroe weight, a 4 wheel drive vehicle built for miliarty use led the way, and none of the Audi road cars could keep up with it.

you could argue that the SUV thing was started with the Willy's Jeep in WWII, which is the basis for the wrangler, and so on.

I think the SUV thing was then they started to add luxury to the utility. As such, the vehicles from waaaay back that were primarily utilitarian such as the Jeeps and other military vehicles don't really qualify as being an SUV as we know it.

fair enough.

i have friends who've had SUVs and had them refunded because they're hopeless off-road. my mate's brother had an X5 4.4-litre, we broke the suspension 3 times in the first month. despite BMW telling my friend's brother that he'd put it through more than it could take he threatend to take them to court over it.

we broke the tie rods twice, and the lowerd control arm joints once.

on the subject of refunds and broken stuff..

don't buy an XK, seriously. we've had one for a month it's spent 2 weeks in the garage being fixed, we've had no end of problems with it. we're now looking to take them to court over it...

most modern suvs suck at offroading anyways. theyre useless really, just glorified minivans that use alot more gas.

I only said that americans pioneered the SUV craze...weather they pioneered SUVs or not...I can't say, I have never researched it.

the irony is that for a while, it looked like Toyota was looking to buy (or was it buy into?)GM, which it could quite easily.

how did that round of talks go anyway?
the last i heard Lutz was rather annoyed that one of the executives essentially went behind his back and talked to toyota.
how did the renault partnership work out?

All I know was that Gm and toyota were related some how, Never said they owned it. However I know ford owns alot out there. Speaking of ford. I heard they put aston on the market.

The lines are blurring more and more everyday about what car belongs to what company. The new saturn Vue apparently is a honda under the hood.

although i agree that american vehicles are grossly uneconomical, i would have to refute anyone bashing a v-8 engine as the cause of this problem. All else equal, a v-8 that makes 250 horses will use just as much fuel as a turbo 4 banger making 250 horses. obviously no two engines have the same power per fuel volume ratio, but you guys get my point right. the reason a 300 horsepower domestic v-8 usually seems to be worse than a 300 horsepower import v-6 is that the v-8 is in a vehicle that weighs probably a full ton more than the v-6, such as a silverado, while the v-6 in a honda accord will be much better on gas just because of the fact it doesnt need to be pushed as hard to get up to speed and keep up at that speed.

i think all the american companies should do is make thier cars smaller and lighter and still offer the engines that make em fast but also have some economy-oriented engine options. back in the old days (not really old, but still) GM made their chevrolet trucks not any heavier than the cars. a 73-87 chevy c-10 pickup will weigh in at about 3800 to 4000 depending on options before accounting for fuel or a driver. if you havent noticed, a new mustang tops that weight by a little bit. its just sad that my old 73 chevy truck is lighter than some mustangs. those things used to be around 3000 pounds if i am not mistaken... granted new safety regulations require airbags and other heavier equipment, but still, they dont need to make a car wider and more comfortable to boot. old cars are some of the most comfortable cars to drive in fact...

yea, the good thing about old cars is that they dont have all this useless crap that makes them heavy, their weight comes from being bigger all around, more room and stuff though.

and its not really the v8 thats getting the bad mileage, its that theyre still using old engine teqniques, huge displacement and single cams, the only difference is that they are fuel injected instead of carberated. theyre not butting any technology into the engine, relying on huge displacement to make power instead of modern technology and smart tuning.

yea, the good thing about old cars is that they dont have all this useless crap that makes them heavy, their weight comes from being bigger all around, more room and stuff though.

and its not really the v8 thats getting the bad mileage, its that theyre still using old engine teqniques, huge displacement and single cams, the only difference is that they are fuel injected instead of carberated. theyre not butting any technology into the engine, relying on huge displacement to make power instead of modern technology and smart tuning.

This really isn't the case. All SUV's are getting terrible mileage, not just the american ones. The problem is that SUB's are road boats heavily laden with luxury and towing equipment, and posess the aerodynamics of a wall. American motors are hardly low tech anymore. Ford doesn't even make a pushrod motor that I am aware of anymore. Also GM and Dodge are using that displacement on demand now, which is pretty new (at least as a reliable system). I mean the Nissan Titan (which is about as american a truck you can get without buying a big 3) gets between 11 and 18 MPG with its "high tech japanese motor". Just as a minivan won't achieve better performance than a corvette, an SUV won't get as good of mileage as a car.

im not saying all american engines are low tech, there are some greeat u.s. engines, just most of the ones they put in s.u.v.s are not. i wasnt thinking about that cylinder deactivation though.

Sorry if its been said, but not just american brands make new SUV's. New European and Japanese SUV's and trucks are frequently presented.