I'm not exactly religious, but I spent like 8 years of my life in a catholic school. Remembering all of the bible readings I had to endure, all I can say is where is God now? He sure seemed to show his face a lot in biblical times, speaking to people, telling them to do this or that or they will feel his wrath and whatnot. Why is it when I ask him to show himself, he can't. Is he even there? I don't think so. Then there's that word "faith". Have faith that he's there, you might say. Why? Sure his commandments are golden rules worth following, but why not just follow those rules and be a good human being? So, if I don't belive in God, but follow his rule, do I go to heaven when I die for being a good person? Probably not, for without God there is no heaven, right? Hellooooooooooo.................??????? Better off beliving in evolution, I was a monkey and I'm OK with that. At least there's evidence of that.

When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all

Hey dude, I was in a catholic school since kindergarden. I left in 6th grade for the Alternative school I'm at now. I'm now an athiest. My question is also where is god? Where the hell was he when I was being beat up physically and mentally in the school yard? I think organized religion is organized ignorance.

I went to church every Sunday and religion class every morning.

God doesn't exist. We rot in the ground when we die. I'm fine with evolution. Like you said, at least theres some proof of that.

I also dislike religion becuase it causes so much stress and conflict. I just wish people could be friendly. Just get along. Differences are what make us unique but we should just respect that we are all different. We should all be able to accept that and disagree, but still get along.

Fact: There is no proof of evolution.

Fact: There is no proof of god.

We might as well beleive that we were all created by the funkey Break dance beats of the early 70's

Now that is something I can get behind!

I'd rather the trance beats of today though.

When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all

So he couldn't do things right before? What a lame god...

"Faith is believing what you know ain't so" - Mark Twain

Ralliart 3000gt - you post is misleading. Maybe misleading isn't the word, but I can't think of the word now. Anyways, when it comes down to it there can never be 100% proof of anything, but there is 1,000 times more evidence for evolution than god.
1,000 times doesn't even begin to cover it, for how can you have 1,000 times more than 'nothing'?

Exactly, organized ignorance is perfect. Evolution really seems to present a great possability. You know, there's all these people that don't want to believe that they came from "monkeys", but what's so bad about that? At least monkeys haven't been fighting in wars for thousands of years because of their different religous beliefs, and even if they did, they would be throwing harmless poop at each other. Poop sucks, but it washes off.

Exactly, organized ignorance is perfect. Evolution really seems to present a great possability. You know, there's all these people that don't want to believe that they came from "monkeys", but what's so bad about that? At least monkeys haven't been fighting in wars for thousands of years because of their different religous beliefs, and even if they did, they would be throwing harmless poop at each other. Poop sucks, but it washes off.

Well said dude! I would take out the poop part, 'cus its gross but other than that perfect!

I mean monkeys are cool. Capuchin(sp) monkeys are the cutest things around!!!

So he couldn't do things right before? What a lame god...

"Faith is believing what you know ain't so" - Mark Twain

Ralliart 3000gt - you post is misleading. Maybe misleading isn't the word, but I can't think of the word now. Anyways, when it comes down to it there can never be 100% proof of anything, but there is 1,000 times more evidence for evolution than god.
1,000 times doesn't even begin to cover it, for how can you have 1,000 times more than 'nothing'?

You're a really funny guy, since when did Darwins theory become Darwins fact, and how can you put a number suggesting that there is far more proof (what proof) that men evolved from Monkeys/apes, potato's or piles of shit for that matter over there being a god.

If you want to put forward that argument, there is far more written proof and testimonials in history, that god in fact was alive.

and if we did evolve, originally being monkeys, why are there still monkeys???

Like I said before

Fact: there is no proof of god

Fact: there is no proof that we came from Monkeys....................................

Well if you look at it from a Catholic standpoint god was more of a heavenly being than alive. He sent his son to earth to spread his word.

Also to answer your question about monkeys:

There are many, many types of primates. Humans most likely evolved from Chimpanzes, seeing as they are the most intelligent of all primates.

Why are there still Chimpanzes? You've got me. Why did America choose such a dunce for our president? You've got me. Why do people feel the need to kill other people so that they can better themselves? You've got me.

Some things may never be solved. Lets just leave it at that.

I seem to have you in many areas ;), so I'm correct in what I say about being no proof of god or us comming from monkeys. Nuff said really........

Tight. That was fun. Who wants cereal? I do. Latta.

you start a thread with a question then end with nothing. obviously someone wasnt in line when they were passing out brains *snicker* :rolleyes:

seriously, who ever says evolution isn't true is plain stupid. yes, i said it. evolution is the most obvious thing and is beyond being a theory. now, did we evolve from monkeys, who knows. that's not all that evolution is. seriously some people need to keep up.

is there more proof of God than monkey evo? Heck no. is there proof of what the Bible says. Yes. Is that proof totally unexplainable like the Mayan calendar predictions and Aristotles predictions, yes. Therefore, is obvious evidence (monkey evo) more believable then proof with no signs of how or why, but there's no denying it happened?

No. that's why they remain a mystery and that's why God or whatever ya'll want to believe gave freewill. That's what faith is for. and as ive ended many of these idiotic wanting to start an argument thread, you cant argue a faith based belief. it's based on faith, for a reason. As a Christian, I will never ever sit down with someone and say, God is real and you better believe it. There's this and this and this and this etc of proof and this and this and this etc of no proof of monkey evo. That's not how faith works.

According to religion, (let's take out the fact I'm a Christian and instead just a genius in religions) He wants us to believe! Have faith. That's what the free will is for. If He wanted all of us to believe for sure and have no questions otherwise, poof! There He'd be. But why give freewill if you're going to give undeniable proof. Why have a jury when the evidence is so clear, OJ killed Nicole. Oh wait, bad example. That Hitler killed Jews! wait, there's a conspiracy for that too.

See, no one, no matter what, believes anything explained with proof. To someone, everything is a possibility but not a definite. JFK was assinated. but by whom and why. some people know who and assume some reason. Others...heck, that's a long conspiracy list. Did Marilyn Monroe commit suicide. Well...think about it.

It's faith people, not something that's to be sat down and proven with books, tests, and other nonsense. And anyone that believes in science is just as faith worthy as anything else. that's the problem with "atheists".They still believe in something. Look the term up and then you''ll understand why you should never talk about such things.

The best example pf BS science. The atom is the smallest possible thing. Oh...wait, it's not.

BS religion. Where is God when (insert stupid personal problem) happened.

I say the last line because people are selfish, they can't understand anything bigger than they are. That such an event may have happened for something else or nothing. But does it matter. Serisouly. You got beat up. Big deal. Someone got dump. Kids are starving, countries are at war, no just with others but themselves. But you! got beat up.

Dont try and defend or explain anything but such simplicity. at 19, ive experience more than a lot in their whole lives. I'll share the list if ya want. But dont come with nothing. Cause in the end, for me, i dont care what you believe. but do belive in something, or youll wind up down the street and not across the road. need a definition, check out the emo forum.

_aravena

That was core. You gotta be featured on Beat Down Radio.

For the record I'm a beliver in evolution.

Also I've done some minor research into the Myan calender. That shit is scary.

yes, yes it is. that's why the world will end in 2012. :lol:

what's "core" and what's beat down radio? i like insults, if i understand them. :icon16:

and i can only assume hardcore and that was sarcasm. just sounds like a good sarcasm comment, at least, that's what id do. :grinno:

If you read the original post red933 refers to revolutions as us coming from monkeys (Darwin’s theory) and no I’m not plain stupid I’m one of a factual nature. Unless I have seen something with my own eyes I will call Theory until it is proven other wise. What is stupid however is when someone calls bullshit and rules out any possibility of god or evolution or tries to prove one theory over another and yes, evolution is classed as theory, why??? because it is yet to be proven.......................................

No no! It was not sarcasm at all. Beat Down Radio is a radio station my friend and I wish we had money for. It would feature all hardcore people.

Ahh the Myan calender. So much fun to study isn't it?

If you read the original post red933 refers to revolutions as us coming from monkeys (Darwin’s theory) and no I’m not plain stupid I’m one of a factual nature. Unless I have seen something with my own eyes I will call Theory until it is proven other wise. What is stupid however is when someone calls bullshit and rules out any possibility of god or evolution or tries to prove one theory over another and yes, evolution is classed as theory, why??? because it is yet to be proven.......................................

i know what he reffered to it as, but that's not all it is. evo is real. evo is as complicated as X-Men and as simple as the adpatation and evolving of the body/genes/ and then some to disease, common roughness to the body, etc.

evo is real, just as much as this is all a dream and we're plugged into a a huge machine power station. wait...darn!

and no, evo isn't classed as theory. evo specifics are though. and good luck seeing evo, considering the time line to controls.

Darn, I'm plugging back into the matrix, Neo are you with me??????

If you read the original post red933 refers to revolutions as us coming from monkeys (Darwin’s theory) and no I’m not plain stupid I’m one of a factual nature. Unless I have seen something with my own eyes I will call Theory until it is proven other wise. What is stupid however is when someone calls bullshit and rules out any possibility of god or evolution or tries to prove one theory over another and yes, evolution is classed as theory, why??? because it is yet to be proven.......................................

Gravity is "classed as a theory"
Do you doubt you'll die if you jump off a building?
I don't think you understand the difference between a scientific "theory" and the common usage of the word

Have you physically seen the pistons in your engine turning over due to the combustion of fuel to power your car? No, you haven't. So, since you haven't seen it with your own eyes, it's a theory to you, right?
Then if I propose a theory that your car is actually powered by a bunch of Alka Seltzers thatthe manufacturer put in your gas tank (have you SEEN the inside of your gas tank? How do you know there's no Alka Seltzer in there then?) and the fizzing action propels your car, you must consider that to be just as likely as the first one, right?
I mean, you haven't seen actual proof of either one...

Have you seen Antarctica with your own eyes? Theory?

You're a really funny guy, since when did Darwins theory become Darwins fact, and how can you put a number suggesting that there is far more proof (what proof) that men evolved from Monkeys/apes, potato's or piles of shit for that matter over there being a god.

Huh?
I just said you can never prove anything. I think Darwin's theory is included in 'anything'.
I said there is infinate more evidence pointing towards evolution than god. It's all around you. On the other hand, there is not one single shred of evidence that points toward a god. Not one. that's why it's called faith. And again: "Faith is believing what you know ain't so" or in other words: "Faith is another way of saying 'I have no good reason to believe this'".

If you want to put forward that argument, there is far more written proof and testimonials in history, that god in fact was alive.

Give me one. Just one.

and if we did evolve, originally being monkeys, why are there still monkeys???

You don't understand evolution very well. Evolution is guided by natural selection. A population of monkeys in one part of the world, exposed to different environmental influences, will evolve differently than a population in another place. Evolution isn't a search for the best possible organism, it's a search for the simplest organism that works. If you understand that, it's plain to see why there are still monkeys. A primate population in one part of the world was exposed to some influence that forced them to evolve or die. A different population did not experience the same influence. Population one evolves into a new organism (human?) and population two stays as monkeys because being a monkey works perfectly fine in that part of the world.

Fact: there is no proof of god

Fact: there is no proof that we came from Monkeys....................................

And this is why your argument is misleading. Here's the proper form:
Fact: There is and never has been a single shred of evidence pointing towards even the existence of a god, much less that he cares even the tiniest bit about us as humans.
Fact: There probably never will be 100% proof that humans evolved from lower primates, but there is enough evidence that any reasonable person would logically conclude that it was so.

"As to the human race. There are many pretty and winning things about the human race. It is perhaps the poorest of all the inventions of all the gods but it has never suspected it once. There is nothing prettier than its naive and complacent appreciation of itself. It comes out frankly and proclaims without bashfulness or any sign of blush that it is the noblest work of god. It has had a billion opportunities to know better, but all signs fail with this ass. I could say harsh things about it but I cannot bring myself to do it - it is like hitting a child."
- Mark Twain, Letters From The Earth

is there proof of what the Bible says. Yes.

Show me.

This is the bottom line, show me. Faith is a lame cop out, intellectual cowardice at it's best. If you don't have a reason to believe, then you don't have a reason to believe.

It's so incredibly simple, and yet so many people (like 98% of the world!!!) try to justify and work their way around it.

"A casual stroll through an insane asylum shows that faith alone does not prove anything' - Friedriech Nietzsche

While all of your opinions are are wonderfully argumentative, all I asked was where is God now? I want to hear from one of you BELIEVERS what you think is going on with God not showing his face anymore. You know, like when he told Moses to write the commandments and told Eve not to eat the fruit (just a few examples). The evo vs God thing is cool (which I would argue all day about), but thats all I really want opinions on. Sorry if I'm just a seeing is believing guy. Oh and don't give me that "have you ever seen a million dollars" crap. If he wants us to believe in his word and follow his rule, then why not come down and show everyone what he's made of? Either he isn't there or he doesn't care. I think he doesn't care. Why did he get so pissed when Eve ate the forbidden fruit, but nuclear wars and mass genocide are OK? Just come down here and tell us all to behave or feel his wrath. Oh and don't even compare that to your dad telling you to take out the trash and you being like "whatever".

^ The answer they're going to give you is he doesn't want to show himself because he wants us to have faith. Apparantly he didn't want people to have faith in the bible times, so he was okay with showing himself then. He's a wishy-washy kinda guy I suppose.

If god made me, god gave me the power of reason and intellect. Why would he give me that if he wanted me to ignore it and 'have faith'?
If god made the world, he made the natural laws governing it (including evolution/natural selection, the implication being that if god exists, evolution is god's law). Why would he then have to perform miracles or otherwise step in to correct his world? If he's perfect, he should have made a perfect world that did not require his intervention (you say he doesn't intervene? Have you READ the bible?)

Where is god now? He's in our imagination, the same place he's always been.

As to evolution being god's law: if god exists, and evolution isn't real, then god placed all this evidence supporting evolution just to drive people away from him and into hell? Now he's starting to sound like a plain old bastard.
"Does this bother anyone else? The idea that goooooooooood might be fuckin with our heads?" - Bill Hicks

God needs a summer holiday too.


He's probably in Aruba...

While all of your opinions are are wonderfully argumentative, all I asked was where is God now? I want to hear from one of you BELIEVERS what you think is going on with God not showing his face anymore. You know, like when he told Moses to write the commandments and told Eve not to eat the fruit (just a few examples). The evo vs God thing is cool (which I would argue all day about), but thats all I really want opinions on. Sorry if I'm just a seeing is believing guy. Oh and don't give me that "have you ever seen a million dollars" crap. If he wants us to believe in his word and follow his rule, then why not come down and show everyone what he's made of? Either he isn't there or he doesn't care. I think he doesn't care. Why did he get so pissed when Eve ate the forbidden fruit, but nuclear wars and mass genocide are OK? Just come down here and tell us all to behave or feel his wrath. Oh and don't even compare that to your dad telling you to take out the trash and you being like "whatever".

answered

go to the last Bible argument in this thread and read it. Like other mods say, read other threads. These are the exact same duscussions that always come up and I've practically gone back and just copy and pasted 'cause no one reads anything anymore and one seems to believe what my be possible.

if you read anything i typed, you wouldnt have posted.

and no, the monkey evo is just as far as anything. we only hear about it so much because of Darwin and how it's one of many possibilities. It's still a wild theory.

^ The answer they're going to give you is he doesn't want to show himself because he wants us to have faith. Apparantly he didn't want people to have faith in the bible times, so he was okay with showing himself then. He's a wishy-washy kinda guy I suppose.

If god made me, god gave me the power of reason and intellect. Why would he give me that if he wanted me to ignore it and 'have faith'?
If god made the world, he made the natural laws governing it (including evolution/natural selection, the implication being that if god exists, evolution is god's law). Why would he then have to perform miracles or otherwise step in to correct his world? If he's perfect, he should have made a perfect world that did not require his intervention (you say he doesn't intervene? Have you READ the bible?)

Where is god now? He's in our imagination, the same place he's always been.

As to evolution being god's law: if god exists, and evolution isn't real, then god placed all this evidence supporting evolution just to drive people away from him and into hell? Now he's starting to sound like a plain old bastard.
"Does this bother anyone else? The idea that goooooooooood might be fuckin with our heads?" - Bill Hicks:lol: So true and it reminds me of another thread (http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=599395) about god and the bible and his existance, I ended up posting this and it so much applies to this one as well.

This is Gods diary, History of the world Part 1.:lol: Also known as the Bible.
hmmm I am bored. Okay I created the Universe, and angels to keep me company. We joke, we play. One of my best friends Lucifier pissed me off for not agreeing to my rules, so I cast him out. A few lesser idiots (his team) follow him, screw them, who needs them. oh but wait. let me give him some powers just like me as a reward for pissing me off, this way he can piss me off even more.
Okay that was fun, but I am still bored these angels all they do is play harp all day. Lucifer is busy setting up his kingdom so I need someone. I therefore created one guy since I am still lonely (yes I have a lonely complex, sue me), that guy ends up lonely himself so I give him a gal. I stand back and see the little children play. Oh, but I tell them they can have anything in the garden but not from that Tree in the middle. (On afterthought, I do not know why I even put that tree there) . Anyway my ex buddy Lucifer has finally set up shop and is trying out his new powers. He gets the girl to eat the forbidden fruit and although I am God and I can see past present and future, I somehow did not see this coming and it pissed me off, so I bannished the two out of the garden. (although what I should have done was kick Lucifiers ass and taken away his powers, but eh the story would end too quickly and I'll be back to being bored).
actually this pissed me off so much that I took some time off (2 weeks my time, 10,000 years their time) and left my angels to overlook things. I swear to myself, what was I thinking, man did they screw things up.
In this time frame the two that were banished had sex, and multiplied and had sex with their children and grandchildren. It was one hell (pardon the expression) incest of a party, still they had to expand and there was no way else how to do it. So I'll overlook that for now. For some reason, something happened along the way that some of the children turned really white, some really black, others brown and others yellow. Oh well, I guess adding more color will spiced things up around here.

:lol: I could go on, but I take it you will get what I am trying to point out that relying on one book which I truly believe was written by man to control man can be interpreted in so many ways by so many people that it borderlines on dangerous.



Religion is nothing but ones mans desire to control another using the cop out of something greater than ourselves as the holder of our outcome. The bible is nothing more than a bunch of bedtime stories collected through the ages some that do have actual true begining but infused with myths and traditions of those that pasted through it. As well as the thoughts and feelings of the writer at the time. There are so many variations of that book that one cannot really say what is the true book or not, it does not explain how one couple lets say they were middle eastern in color end up having darker color ones in Africa (next door to the supposed Eden) and those really white in the northern european countries to the asians in the far east/pacific. Nor does it explain the dinosaurs which we have actual proof of since we have found their bones.

Religion while setting some basic good rules to follow, ends up being manipulated (as history has shown us) by so many into creating many conflicts among the masses. Its sickening. Whats more sickening is that if God does love his children as some claim, than he/she/it should get off his gallatic ass and stop this bullshit and do something about it. But then again what do you expect from someone that gives equal powers to his enemy and allows that enemy to torture and confuse his children into doing wrong. Some f**king parent he turned out to be. :rolleyes:

TS out (playing tag with Jhvh and Lucifer)

God is at my house playing Gran Tourismo 4. I wish he'd get his own Playstation dammit.

and no, the monkey evo is just as far as anything. we only hear about it so much because of Darwin and how it's one of many possibilities. It's still a wild theory.

You can see a logical progression of organisms from microorganisms through to us. We share most of our DNA with chimps. Natural selection is at work today, look at the countless microorganisms adapting and becoming more resistant to our treatments. How is that just as far as a guy with a beard on a cloud destroying whole civilizations because one guy pulled out and cummed on the ground instead of in the girl he was doing (Onan) or because another guy pissed on a wall (Jeroboam)?
(They didn't teach you those stories in Sunday School? They're right there in the logbook of your all-merciful father)

:lol: So true and it reminds me of another thread (http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=599395) about god and the bible and his existance, I ended up posting this and it so much applies to this one as well.

Reminds me of Mark Twains Letter From The Earth. Everybody should read it, probably the best thing on religion I've ever read, funny too.

Look, where did the universe come from??? Nature??? come on, it had to come from somwhere, How was it created???? who created it???? I don't think much of the Darwin Theory, even he doubted his own theory near the end.....................................

Look, where did the universe come from??? Nature??? come on, it had to come from somwhere, How was it created???? who created it???? I don't think much of the Darwin Theory, even he doubted his own theory near the end.....................................


So why does it have to be your biblical God who created everything? I sure believe in a higher power of course. Someone made everything but not as we know it. I believe things started out one way and are the way we know it now due to evolution. I really don't care WHO created it, I just want to know, why God?

Not to mention, God would have to have been one hell of a physicist to come up with all that he did on an atomic level. How this does that naturally and stuff. But why would such a loving God create disease, abnormalities, blue balls? I mean for real man. Why does he allow all of these horrible things to happen? WHERE IS HE NOW??????

^^ I aint religious genius..................... My understanding is that evolution had to evolve from some basis, and where did that basis come from??? I personally believe that there is a higher power, what??? I don't know......

Look, where did the universe come from??? Nature??? come on, it had to come from somwhere, How was it created???? who created it???? I don't think much of the Darwin Theory, even he doubted his own theory near the end.....................................

Then apparently you don't think much. Darwin didn't doubt his theory for a second. What he said was that evidence at the time could not confirm his theory. But nowadays, evidence most certainly can and does point to the idea of evolution. I could launch into a huge argument laying out only a small fraction of the insurmountable evidence for evolution, and there would be nothing anyone could point to logically to debunk any of those pieces. And when taken as an aggregate, all of the evidence for evolution is so staggering, so convincing, that no logical mind could only look at it and say that it isn't true.

I aint religious genius..................... My understanding is that evoution had to evolve from some basis, and where did that basis come from???

The so called "spark of life" that differentiates living beings from non-living organic material has been replicated over and over in the laboratory, where non-living organic material are able to uptake enough energy to become "living." In fact, most of the steps in early chemical evolution (like those of protein and RNA formation) have also been observed in the laboratory.

^^^ and the non living organic material you speak of came from????? The spark of life???? Fuck this is a load of fictional bull shit, I think I would get more facts from watching the matrix.........

I could sit here and tell you guys why I believe in God and why I go to the Nazarene (Christian) University that I go to, but you and I know that it wouldn't matter and it wouldn't change your mind on the issue.

The fact of the matter is, I believe in God. I believe in a power that is higher than myself. I DON'T believe that I was spurned from evolution. I love God and believe there is only one. I believe in Jesus Christ and his death and resurrection.

That is what I believe, and you know what? I really don't care if you think I'm full of it. I'm going to continue to worship God the way I want to worship Him, not the way my church thinks I should. It's MY relationship with God, not yours.

If any of you care to actually discuss these beliefs--not try to disprove them or prove your own--then shoot me a message. That's all I have to say.

All I wanted was opinions from different walks of life. People are different in other areas of the world, country or neighborhood. My intention wasn't to start the God vs evolution argument. Of course I'm gonna throw in my own personal opinions and challenge those different. Thats to be expected. Just keep posting your opinions. All of us arguing here makes us no better than those middle eastern terrorists that fight over their religons and kill those who don't believe what they do.

Well I was bought up in a Māori School (Māori are the Natives of New Zealand), and Māori believe in elemental gods, like the god being the forest, ground, sky, war etc and played a great role on how I am today, no I don’t believe in the stuff but in the concept behind it, ie Papatuanuku being mother earth and Ranginui being the god father etc taught me a lot about respecting nature etc

Although bought up in a school with strong cultural beliefs, my dad was a Christian totally different to that of the school, So I’ve been lucky to see many aspects when it comes to beliefs. I don’t care to much about someone’s belief, as long as it doesn’t control or dominate the beliefs of someone else or have a negative impact on society.

My grandmother was polish and strong in Catholicism, My granddad was Māori and
Strong in his beliefs on my mums side I am Papua New Guinea which is a totally
Different world again, and am also German and Norwegian, so even if I was to go the
Traditional way of the family, it would be quite hard to choose who, so I’m going t be
Objective and keep to my belief that I do think there is a higher power and that
I’ve great hope that there is life after death............................................. .................

All of us arguing here makes us no better than those middle eastern terrorists that fight over their religons and kill those who don't believe what they do.

Never compare me to a terrorist again.

We aren't arguing, we are discussing.

To proceed with the Biblical curiosities. Naturally you will think the threat to punish Adam and Eve for disobeying was of course not carried out, since they did not create themselves, nor their natures nor their impulses nor their weaknesses, and hence were not properly subject to anyone's commands, and not responsible to anybody for their acts. It will surprise you to know that the threat was carried out. Adam and Eve were punished, and that crime finds apologists unto this day. The sentence of death was executed.

As you perceive, the only person responsible for the couple's offense escaped; and not only escaped but became the executioner of the innocent.

In your country and mine we should have the privilege of making fun of this kind of morality, but it would be unkind to do it here. Many of these people have the reasoning faculty, but no one uses it in religious matters.

The best minds will tell you that when a man has begotten a child he is morally bound to tenderly care for it, protect it from hurt, shield it from disease, clothe it, feed it, bear with its waywardness, lay no hand upon it save in kindness and for its own good, and never in any case inflict upon it a wanton cruelty. God's treatment of his earthly children, every day and every night, is the exact opposite of all that, yet those best minds warmly justify these crimes, condone them, excuse them, and indignantly refuse to regard them as crimes at all, when he commits them. Your country and mine is an interesting one, but there is nothing there that is half so interesting as the human mind.

To proceed with the Biblical curiosities. Naturally you will think the threat to punish Adam and Eve for disobeying was of course not carried out, since they did not create themselves, nor their natures nor their impulses nor their weaknesses, and hence were not properly subject to anyone's commands, and not responsible to anybody for their acts. It will surprise you to know that the threat was carried out. Adam and Eve were punished, and that crime finds apologists unto this day. The sentence of death was executed.

if all we have to go by is the bible, where are you getting that from?

LjasonL turned me on to those Mark Twain letters to the Earth. You should all check them out. Just another point of view..... http://www.book-worm.org/twain-mark/letters/preface.htm

Man I can't belive no one has touched on the fact he compared us to fucking terrorists!

Man I can't belive no one has touched on the fact he compared us to fucking terrorists!

you've touched on it. therefore someone has touched on it.

I'll kill all who don't beleive in the Pokemon gods, long live Pikachu (SP?)

Terrorist.

I'll kill all who don't beleive in the Pokemon gods, long live Pikachu (SP?)

Pikachu was a character in them, not a god.

He was a god in my eyes and an Idle if you use his name in vain again, may his thunderbolt strike theeeeeeeeee.

if all we have to go by is the bible, where are you getting that from?

The threat was "if you eat from this tree, you will die" - paraphrased from the bible. And it was carried out by god, he took their immortality.

Look, where did the universe come from??? Nature??? come on, it had to come from somwhere, How was it created???? who created it???? I don't think much of the Darwin Theory, even he doubted his own theory near the end.....................................

Why does it have to come from somewhere? Why couldn't it have always been?

If everything had to come from somewhere, then where did god come from?

If god can have 'always been' then why can't the universe?

Don't you see how you're twisting things to fit the outcome you want?

LjasonL turned me on to those Mark Twain letters to the Earth. You should all check them out. Just another point of view..... http://www.book-worm.org/twain-mark/letters/preface.htm

I edited your post (hope you don't mind) because your link missed the .htm to make it a complete link, but here's the link again for those who've already read past your post - http://www.book-worm.org/twain-mark/letters/preface.htm

I'll kill all who don't beleive in the Pokemon gods, long live Pikachu (SP?)

Dude squirtle is where its at.

Terrorist.

See I found that funny. But when you were being serious you sounded stupid.

I got Pikachu a penis enlarger and now he's evolved into Rychu, now thats where its at!!!

Crap! How could I have lost so easily?!

Thanx for the edit Mr. Mod. It's really interesting reading. I've never heard of this before.

Long live penis pumps!! Although, this sort of thing isn't my bag baby.

All of us arguing here makes us no better than those middle eastern terrorists that fight over their religons and kill those who don't believe what they do.


I'm very offended by your statement.:nono:

Of course you're offended. Discussions about God always end up offending somebody.

Best to try not to take anything on a 'net forum too seriously.

:)

Of course you're offended. Discussions about God always end up offending somebody.

Best to try not to take anything on a 'net forum too seriously.

:)


I dont really care about that. Its there beliefs. I felt offended what he said about arab ppl (middle eastern) callin them terrorists and thinks we'd kill anyone if they're not muslims. Which it isn't true.

Well I didn't want to jump into this thread but I thought I'd give my :2cents:

Is there a God or not? Now I'm not saying Christian God but just a higher power as that seems to be what the thread is about.

Well here is how I like to start this argument. Do you believe in the soul? I think it's true that most people who believe that they have a soul believe in a higher power. If not...I'll get to that later.

Anyway, lets say there is no God. We don't have a soul and our lives on this dirt ball are just a speck of sand on the beach of time.

If you don't believe in a God, you are nothing. Your life serves no purpose and it doesn't matter if you live or die. Now to this you may respond, "That's so true! We are nothing and our lives are what we make it!"

Oh really? Well if you believe that I think I may kill you because of what you think because it pisses me off.

Stay with me here.

If you think we're nothing and our lives have no meaning then by the laws of science, when broken down, we're all nothing but a bunch of protons, neutrons, and electrons. You are no different than if I were to cut down a tree. The tree is made of molecules, like you, and the same elements we find on this earth. What's the difference between you and a tree? Your molecules are just arranged differently.

"But I can learn, I am aware, and have feelings."

Oh really? I have a dog that I can teach new tricks and it can get its feelings hurt if I yell at it. It's also aware of its surroundings. What difference does it make if I were to run over a pack of dogs and your family? Again, it's nothing but a group of atoms I'm hitting, NOTHING MORE.

"But we humans have evolved to have morals and logical thought."

Whose logical thought and whose morals? Why should I follow your logic and your morals? My logic is to kill whoever pisses me off. I like my morals of having sex with any girl, doesn't matter what age, and I don't care if I rape them, as long as I'm happy.

Again, what difference does it make? As long as I'm happy in my little life that doesn't mean anything, so what? People are no different than ants to me. They're just a fancy group of atoms and molecules.

What does it matter if somebody lives or dies? Another sack of meat will pop out and replace them.

Now answer me this athiest...
Why shouldn't I murder people?
Why shouldn't I rape women for my personal pleasure?
Why shouldn't I steal?
Why shouldn't I ignore other people's feelings and such just to see me happy?

Now your answer could be...
"Because it's the wrong thing to do."
"Because it's morally wrong."
"Because you can't do that stuff."
"Because good people don't do that."

Says who? You? You're a silly sack of meat whose life won't mean shit in a few years. Why in the hell should I follow your "morals" or your "judgement"?

If you athiest say "life is a joyride, there is no God or afterlife, have fun while you can" then why hold yourself back? Why is it wrong for me to lets say...poison a water supply station? I think it'd be funny, I'm not going to hell for it, and it'll be like killing ants on an ant hill because people are no different from ants.

Note: I don't want to kill or rape pre-teen girls. I thought it'd make a good example though.

Now answer me this athiest...
Why shouldn't I murder people?
Why shouldn't I rape women for my personal pleasure?
Why shouldn't I steal?
Why shouldn't I ignore other people's feelings and such just to see me happy?

Now your answer could be...
"Because it's the wrong thing to do."
"Because it's morally wrong."
"Because you can't do that stuff."
"Because good people don't do that."


Athiest says: Because it's MANS law and you'll either go to prison forever or be put to death. Thats why. Man sure seems much more powerful than God at the present. God won't take everthing from you, but man will and can. That's what I mean, where is he now? He could take the lives of all these killers and rapists and sick fuckin' child molesters, but he chooses to let them live, be release from prison and do it all over again. Oh, and because I don't believe in God, I am nothing? No soul? I like James Brown and Bar-b-q ribs, I have soul, brother.

I dont really care about that. Its there beliefs. I felt offended what he said about arab ppl (middle eastern) callin them terrorists and thinks we'd kill anyone if they're not muslims. Which it isn't true.

That's absolutley not what I meant. Although I feel I shouldn't have to defend myself, I will anyways. I guess I figured you would all know what I'm talkin about. See there's these two countries called Israel and Lebanon (located in the middle east) who have been fighting in religious wars for thousands of years. There's also this other country (also located in the middle east) called Afghanistan. This country has some TERRORISTS that kill and torture those who don't follow the same religon that they do. I guess with all the attention on these issues lately, I figured you people would know what I'm talking about and try not to be ANYTHING like them. While I know we're not "fighting" about religon and what I believe vs. you, we should all be open and understanding to each others beliefs. This thread was started with the intent to gain other peoples understanding of religon. I may be an athiest, but I don't hate those who believe in God or try to push my beliefs on them, just share them.

I guess I figured you would all know what I'm talkin about. See there's these two countries called Israel and Lebanon (located in the middle east) who have been fighting in religious wars for thousands of years. There's also this other country (also located in the middle east) called Afghanistan.

Maybe I misunderstood you. If I did then I apologise. Afghanistan is not located in middle east. Lets just get that out of the way. Most muslims would say whoever follows Al Qaeda follows Wahabbism which they contradict the Qur'an itself. We do not promote violence whatsoever. I cannot speak against the Taliban nor can I speak for them. If you care what I think about them? Sure I can give you some input. They had the right idea, but they do not want to be advanced. In this day of age, we have to adapt but to keep our beliefs as much as possible. They're oppressing women and thats totally against Islam as well.



While I know we're not "fighting" about religon and what I believe vs. you, we should all be open and understanding to each others beliefs. This thread was started with the intent to gain other peoples understanding of religon. I may be an athiest, but I don't hate those who believe in God or try to push my beliefs on them, just share them.

I for one is against people shoving religion down on others throat. I do agree that we can share them as long as they're interested in the subject. Fine thats cool. I love to talk about it but I hate to argue. So in other words, if its a civilised conversation , then im all for it.


Where is God? Hes everywhere. He has no shape or form. He has no chair to sit on, He has no hands/face/arms/legs . His throne is anything between Heaven and Earth. He owns everything thats between Heaven and Earth. God was the begining and He still is. SO if someone says that God has a chair, then the chair has a begining and that contradicts His existance. Since He does not rest/sleep/goes blind or not noticing you're there is not the God I'd like to believe in. If you marry girl A He would know exactly how your life would be like if you'd marry girl B. IF you turned left, He'll know what would happen if you turned right. You can think whatever He is, could be a pebble/atom/animal/bright light but it wont be God. Since theres nothing "like unto Him."

His Existance is here. Its real. People question God when there love ones die or a natural disaster occurs and took many lives. People who has faith can also lose faith as well when a tragedy does happen to them. This is because they lack trust in Him. Theres a reason for everything. God has the right to take anyones life away. Is He harsh? No, but we are taught this life is a test. So if I lost my loved one in a tragic accident (God forbid), and I lost faith in God. During the Day of Judgement, my loved can enter Heaven and God will question me about my denial in Him. This life is about Test and Patience. If we are not rewarded in this life but still have patience and led a righteous life then surely we will get rewarded in the Hereafter God Willing.

Thats my take on it. Im like in a hurry to explain but hopefully you guys understand it :)

okay, I'll wade in to this.

God does not exist. He is simply a fairytale developed by humans in order to exert power and influence over others.

Humans have developed many systems to control one another.
-Nations use propeganda to sway public opinion.
-Newspapers and magazines publish editiorials to influence others.
-Corporations, governments and political parties use advertising to influence others, including the ads here at AF.

The concept of god; whether its the chrisitian one, jewish, moslem or event the animist concepts of eastern religions, it fundamentally exists to control others. God, and all the related promises, of being a good believer in exchange for life everlasting is an extremely effective tool to gain the submission of the people.

If you choose to believe in god and be controlled, good for you. I may be an athiest (realist) but I do support freedom of religion.

^ :thumbsup:

moslem.

Muslim.

Muslim.

Stop taking my job as AF editor.

Athiest says: Because it's MANS law and you'll either go to prison forever or be put to death.

Pedophile party starts in Netherlands (http://news.webindia123.com/news/Articles/World/20060531/349523.html)

Kuwaiti women granted right to vote (http://www.aljazeera.com/me.asp?service_ID=8173)

The Nuremberg Race Laws (http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/holocaust/h-nurem-laws.htm)

Man's law is influenced by his MORALS and LOGIC which I talked about.


Thats why. Man sure seems much more powerful than God at the present. God won't take everthing from you, but man will and can. That's what I mean, where is he now?

Aww poor thing! You sound like a whole lot of people I know.

Praise the doctors for they cured the cancer in my mother!

Damn you God for letting 9/11 happen!

Thank you doctor for letting little Timmy walk again!

You suck Jesus for allowing that drunk driver to hit my sister's car.

It's funny how people always want God around to blame when something goes wrong. When things aren going great though we don't want him near us.

He could take the lives of all these killers and rapists and sick fuckin' child molesters, but he chooses to let them live, be release from prison and do it all over again.

You are a flip flopper. Which do you believe in? Do you believe in God or not? Well I'll answer both.

A. There is no God. There is nothing to guide this world so it runs its course. Don't like it, tuff.

B. There is a God. Due to what happened a long, long time ago, man sinned and the world fell into Satan's control. It will continue to be in his control until the end times. If you didn't guess it, Satan doesn't run a world filled with candy and flowers.

Oh, and because I don't believe in God, I am nothing? No soul? I like James Brown and Bar-b-q ribs, I have soul, brother.

Wow! James Brown and Bar-B-Q gets you a soul?! I never knew that... :rolleyes:

Well you're the one who said you're nothing by saying there is no God. Don't like it, well maybe you should re-consider what you believe.

^^ I am in strong agreement with Muscletang thus far. That mostly sums up my thoughts on each sides.

Atheism: the belief that water originates in the well.

okay, I'll wade in to this.

God does not exist.


I don't really have a problem with this as a Christian because as you believe in the freedom of religion, I feel the same way, so please don't feel as though I'm condemning you for not sharing my beliefs, as that is not my intention.

But...

Wouldn't it be more correct to say you don't believe God exists? Just as I do believe He exists?

I suppose a better way to put it is : Isn't it fair to say that you can't definitively prove he doesn't exist, just as I can't definitely prove he does?

In terms of ourselves-as in you and I-to you he does not exist. Difinitively. Just like to me he does exist. Definitively.

I apologize if this sounds weird, I'm just sort of thinking through my fingertips here, but do you see what I'm getting at?

I don't really have a problem with this as a Christian because as you believe in the freedom of religion, I feel the same way, so please don't feel as though I'm condemning you for not sharing my beliefs, as that is not my intention.

But...

Wouldn't it be more correct to say you don't believe God exists? Just as I do believe He exists?

I suppose a better way to put it is : Isn't it fair to say that you can't definitively prove he doesn't exist, just as I can't definitely prove he does?

In terms of ourselves-as in you and I-to you he does not exist. Difinitively. Just like to me he does exist. Definitively.

I apologize if this sounds weird, I'm just sort of thinking through my fingertips here, but do you see what I'm getting at?
I understand your point and I did consider writing "I do not believe God exists"

However, I did not do so to emphasise my point that the God does not exist and is a man-made concept. It is a more definite statement.

The term 'believe" to me implies a conclusion without complete knowledge or evidence to support that conclusion.

IMO there is no evidence God exists. Therefore, I feel its more appropriate to say that God does not exist.

I understand this is just a linguistic trick. I do not mean to make any religious people here angry or upset by my language. I have great admiration for most Christians and their belief system. I acutally had a moderately Christian upbringing and I value much of the lessons of Christianity, but not the theology many religious organizations use.

Muslim.
Yeah, yeah, I'm 41 so I'm used to the old spelling!! :)

I found this on Wikipedia:
Until the late 1980s, the term Moslem was commonly used. Muslims do not recommend this spelling because it is often pronounced "mawzlem" /mɒzlɛm/ which sounds somewhat similar to an Arabic word for "oppressed" (Za'lem in Arabic).[citation needed] The word is pronounced /muslem/ in Arabic, but often /mʊślɪm/ in English. The word is now most commonly written "Muslim".

I get where you're coming from. I was trying to picture the way you were saying it in my head and had to know the feeling behind it (if that makes sense). I like to know how people feel when they say things, I think it often times allows for their comments to be understood better:smile:.

I don't really have a problem with this as a Christian because as you believe in the freedom of religion, I feel the same way, so please don't feel as though I'm condemning you for not sharing my beliefs, as that is not my intention.

But...

Wouldn't it be more correct to say you don't believe God exists? Just as I do believe He exists?

I suppose a better way to put it is : Isn't it fair to say that you can't definitively prove he doesn't exist, just as I can't definitely prove he does?

In terms of ourselves-as in you and I-to you he does not exist. Difinitively. Just like to me he does exist. Definitively.

I apologize if this sounds weird, I'm just sort of thinking through my fingertips here, but do you see what I'm getting at?

maybe i should speak like that. my way just seems to complicated apparently.

I was actually disappointed here. After I made my post only one person responded but they didn't even respond to the whole thing and only picked the part they wanted to take a stab at. I've actually used this argument in a real life debate with several athiest and it ended the same as this thread, no comment.

With that said, since there has been nothing for almost a month...

http://www.donaldcfoley.com/wordpress/wp-content/themes/classic/images/chess2.jpg

Checkmate

Unfortuatly you can't argue against faith.
The whole concept of faith is simply irrational, and its well known that you can not argue with someone who wants to hold an irrational belief.

You can think you've won all you like, but all you've done is reinforced your own faith.

More power to your ignorance.

Unfortuatly you can't argue against faith.
The whole concept of faith is simply irrational, and its well known that you can not argue with someone who wants to hold an irrational belief.

Did I ever once use faith in my argument? No. I simply stated known facts and asked for questions to be answered. Were they? No.

You can think you've won all you like, but all you've done is reinforced your own faith.

Again, were my questions answered? No.

More power to your ignorance.

:disappoin

Oh so I'm ignorant now? Maybe you should actually challenge somebody's theory or argument with your own instead of trying to mud sling?

All I asked was for somebody to challenge what I said. Come up with something that makes me think or help me try to make a stronger argument. As I've said I've used the argument with real athiest and they couldn't say anything to counter me. The same thing happened in this thread, no counter comment.

because some people can't actual debate, only argue.

Did I ever once use faith in my argument? No. I simply stated known facts and asked for questions to be answered. Were they? No.



Again, were my questions answered? No.



:disappoin

Oh so I'm ignorant now? Maybe you should actually challenge somebody's theory or argument with your own instead of trying to mud sling?

All I asked was for somebody to challenge what I said. Come up with something that makes me think or help me try to make a stronger argument. As I've said I've used the argument with real athiest and they couldn't say anything to counter me. The same thing happened in this thread, no counter comment.

Hey, moppie makes an excellent argument, you've missed it.
And BTW you threw plenty of mud in your last post. Don't dish it out if you cannot take it. :nono:

Your last serious post, to which you refer, makes a gross error in logic. I get from it that religion provides morality and protects us from chaos,without which we indulge in all our lusts, wanton desire etc.
Bullsh#t!

Anthropologists theorise that most people have evolved with a sense of morality and an innate sense to treat others decently. Most of us have a sense of empathy, we can understand how others feel and react to our actions. (People who cannot do this are called psychopaths)

Over hundreds of thousands of years, humans generally can only survive in groups, (families, hunter-gatherer communities, primitive agricultural villages etc. People who did not behave in areasonable manner generally were thrown out of the group, or killed, etc. They generally did not survive and did not pass their genes along to future generations.

So, generally people are faiirly moral, because it in our nature to do so. It is NOT given by god to us because god does not exist. Your aggument was fundamentally flawed because you base it on the existance of a fantasy.

Moppie was kind enough to point out that your fantasy (faith) is irrational and, like your last argument is simply not worth debating.

Why? Because faith is irrational. Debate, as you request requires logic and reason, which is the antithesis of faith. Don't believe me? Look up the definition of 'faith' in the dictionary.

For all the evolutionists, say we give all men Idaho and women Ohio. There is no contact with the opposite sex. What result?

ok. im just going to simple repeat "faith is irrational"

when you learn what faith is and tell me you've never had it, then once again, we can talk. if you haven't then alright. i cant not believe you 'cause i'm not you.

but whether faith is irrational or not, what about everything else we do?

please remember, don't put down something that you that applies to something else you also do. then your credibility drops.

now, while the original topic is completely gone, i'll come back to it, "Where is God now?"

Why's it matter? Whether He's real or not, He's not here and won't show just because someone questions Him. It's not different then kids daring each other to do something and then saying, "well you can't do it anyhow."

Now, if you'd do it. Well, I don't think you could not post on here again. Yeah, prove it! If you think that's stupid, then why bother with anything.

why do you own such an expensive house or car? Why do you need a 20in tv? Seriously, they do still sell VHS. Irrationallity goes a long ways, so come up with another negative comment that doesn't cancel out everything else.

See, to debate something, you have to make sure there are no other conflicts that can be brought up. Why do you think in trail, lawyers really only ask questions they already know the answers to, or at least hope they do. 'Cause there are no loose ends.

(i know, this is looping around)

Loose ends = possibilities = anything

of course, i already know what you're going to say and ya know what, despite the fact didn't really touch religion, you still cant effectively debate because life is nothing more than irrational thought also known as faith.

and yes, i do know what youre going to say...

Hey, moppie makes an excellent argument, you've missed it.
And BTW you threw plenty of mud in your last post. Don't dish it out if you cannot take it. :nono:

I don't remember calling anybody ignorant.

Your last serious post, to which you refer, makes a gross error in logic. I get from it that religion provides morality and protects us from chaos,without which we indulge in all our lusts, wanton desire etc.
Bullsh#t!

Not really. My post was asking the simple question of what makes us different. I'll bite the hook on this though.

There is chaos and people are indulging in their desires. I'll show that later.

Anthropologists theorise that most people have evolved with a sense of morality and an innate sense to treat others decently. Most of us have a sense of empathy, we can understand how others feel and react to our actions. (People who cannot do this are called psychopaths)

You talk of empathy like we all have it. I've met a whole lot of people that don't. We all have. I know several people who only care about one person, themselves.

Over hundreds of thousands of years, humans generally can only survive in groups, (families, hunter-gatherer communities, primitive agricultural villages etc. People who did not behave in areasonable manner generally were thrown out of the group, or killed, etc. They generally did not survive and did not pass their genes along to future generations.

Oh really? So we have "evolved" to have a sense of morality and what's right and wrong?

Abortion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion)

The last statistics available showed that between April 2004 and March 2005, 18,793 people were murdered in South Africa, an average of 51 a day in a nation of 47 million. There were 24,516 attempted murders, 55,114 reported rapes and 249,369 assaults with grievous injury. (http://www.boston.com/news/world/africa/articles/2006/08/26/south_africans_murders_hit_scary_rate/)

Thailand, Cambodia Are Havens for Child Sex Predators (http://ki-media.blogspot.com/2006/08/thailand-cambodia-are-havens-for-child.html)

Statistics show that between 1998 and 2002, death from methamphetamine overdoses rose 125 percent. Between 1998 and 2000, meth related emergency room visits doubled. In the past few years, the use of this drug has increased dramatically in teenagers from 12 to 17 years old. (http://www.menstuff.org/issues/byissue/methusage.html)

I'm glad several thousand years of "moral evolution" didn't go to waste. Was really getting worried there.

So religion as you put it, "provides morality and protects us from chaos,without which we indulge in all our lusts, wanton desire etc."

Ok, read above and tell me what you see.

Chaos.
People indulging into their lust.
Wanted desires.

So, generally people are faiirly moral, because it in our nature to do so. It is NOT given by god to us because god does not exist. Your aggument was fundamentally flawed because you base it on the existance of a fantasy.

People are fairly moral by nature? Don't think so. From what I see several parts of the world are dog eat dog like Africa and such.

Lets also look at abortion.
(Note: I don't want this to get off-topic but I've seen photos. I've seen arms, legs, toes, fingers, and facial features on the "fetus." That's murder.)

A lion gets a lioness pregnant. What does the lion do? Kill the cubs.
A guy gets his girlfriend pregnant. What does he do? Kill the child.

I'll go further though if you still don't see a connection or think I'm just wasting space as of now.

There is no God so we evolved from animals right? What do animals do?

Kill - for survival and to kill a rival
Steal - food or whatever it needs
Go after their lusts - to have sex with any female in heat

Why are humans the ONLY ones to "evolve" with these moral traits?
Why do we see dogs killing each other to this day over somebody's back yard?
Why do cats (or several other animals) still kill kittens (babies)?
Why do most animals bang as many of each other as possible and not develope an idea of a companion? (Note: The swan is the only one I can think of)

I can see these traits in humans regardless of what country they live in, how advanced the society is, and regardless of evolution. Several parts of the world have a very different view of what's moral or "right" than what other places do.

Moppie was kind enough to point out that your fantasy (faith) is irrational and, like your last argument is simply not worth debating.

Which faith? Faith in a God or faith in general? Because if it's faith in general, you have it too.

Why? Because faith is irrational. Debate, as you request requires logic and reason, which is the antithesis of faith. Don't believe me? Look up the definition of 'faith' in the dictionary.

Well you call me on faith and I'll call you on this.

What makes us so different from everything else?

Example: In China they are only allowed one child and they want boys. So they'll put the baby girls in trash cans, public toilets, ect.

Why is that "wrong" because that society sees no harm in it. Where are those "evolutionary morals" you talk about?

It's just a baby. Another one will take it's place. The atoms of it will break down and soon a new group of atoms and molecules will form a new one.

In the end, we're all a group of atoms so what's the point?

For all the evolutionists, say we give all men Idaho and women Ohio. There is no contact with the opposite sex. What result?


that is quite obvious, we go extinct.

i can see both sides of this argument between muscletang and magic rat. there is some built in morality instinctiveley. in chimp tribes the chimps are usually pretty careful and protective of members in the tribe, but they wage war on other tribes. basically i think there is a built in morality to those that are similar to you, family, friends, clans. because immorality within a tribe is counterproductive while immorality outside the tribe is productive because you are competing with that tribe.

You're a really funny guy, since when did Darwins theory become Darwins fact, and how can you put a number suggesting that there is far more proof (what proof) that men evolved from Monkeys/apes, potato's or piles of shit for that matter over there being a god.

If you want to put forward that argument, there is far more written proof and testimonials in history, that god in fact was alive.

and if we did evolve, originally being monkeys, why are there still monkeys???

Like I said before

Fact: there is no proof of god

Fact: there is no proof that we came from Monkeys....................................


i know this is old but it annoys me when people argue against evolution without a proper understanding of its concepts. entire species dont evolve, populations do, this evolution is started by a random mutation. a simple mutation gives one individual a trait that is advantageous or disadvantageous. now if it is advantageous that individual will have a better chance of survival that his normal bretheren and this advantage will be passed to its offspring, and eventuall the population is replaced by superior individuals. so since this population is isolated from others of the same species, one poulation advances and the others stay the same. now im not gonna explain this whole process cause that would take too long but do some research if you want to learn everything.

a practcal example of evolution: take all the breeds of dogs, all of these dogs came from the wolf. you would look at a chiwawa(sp) and say that it is totally diffrent from a wolf, about the same that you would say humans are diffrent from chimps. now if this sort of evolution(sped up by human intervention) can occour what is to stop it from occouring in humans? the only diffrence is that when breeding dogs, humans can instantly select for a trait that they prefer where it takes nature a while to select for traits.

more evidence that we evolved from apes: look at the many skeletal remains of upright walking apes, primitive hominids, and neanderthals. they are not modern humans but are not modern apes either, they are half way between and they are obviously our ancestors, are you going to deny their existance? many say "they havent found the missing link", all you have to do is watch the discovery channel, the remains are out there.

any kind of written "proof" is infact not proof, but considered to be the weakest form of evidence. man has the capacity to lie and they have done so many times throughout history. there is also written "proof" and testimonials of ghosts, alien abductions, bigfoot, mermaids, and the lock ness monster so according to your logic these must all be true.

there is strong, strong, strong scientific evidence for evolution.

there is no real world evidence for the existance of a god.

First I'd like to thank you scorpion for typing up a reply and good argument.

i can see both sides of this argument between muscletang and magic rat. there is some built in morality instinctiveley. in chimp tribes the chimps are usually pretty careful and protective of members in the tribe, but they wage war on other tribes. basically i think there is a built in morality to those that are similar to you, family, friends, clans. because immorality within a tribe is counterproductive while immorality outside the tribe is productive because you are competing with that tribe.

Now you talk about morality in tribes as to protect those in the tribe but to attack those outside. What about others though?

As I stated, a lion will kill the cubs of a lioness if given the chance.

Wolves (or dogs) will kill each other in the pack when trying or trying to become the alpha male.

Also, a little off-topic but in the same area, females are held below males in several species. The male(s) controls the female(s), the female(s) eats after the male(s), the female(s) care for the young while male(s) don't, and so on. In our curent age of "equality" why should women be treated the same? If we share the same evolutionary tree with animals and evolved from them, why are we acting differently? Why are actions that the animals take ok but if we do it then it's frowned upon in our society?

i know this is old but it annoys me when people argue against evolution without a proper understanding of its concepts. entire species dont evolve, populations do, this evolution is started by a random mutation. a simple mutation gives one individual a trait that is advantageous or disadvantageous. now if it is advantageous that individual will have a better chance of survival that his normal bretheren and this advantage will be passed to its offspring, and eventuall the population is replaced by superior individuals. so since this population is isolated from others of the same species, one poulation advances and the others stay the same. now im not gonna explain this whole process cause that would take too long but do some research if you want to learn everything.

This isn't exactly evolution. This goes along more with natural selection. Although evolution is tied in I think it's a little bit different.

a practcal example of evolution: take all the breeds of dogs, all of these dogs came from the wolf. you would look at a chiwawa(sp) and say that it is totally diffrent from a wolf, about the same that you would say humans are diffrent from chimps. now if this sort of evolution(sped up by human intervention) can occour what is to stop it from occouring in humans? the only diffrence is that when breeding dogs, humans can instantly select for a trait that they prefer where it takes nature a while to select for traits.

Sorry but you're a bit off. All dogs are not related to wolves. Many see the social relation but I looked at this and larger dogs seem to have ties to wolves yet smaller ones and certain breeds are more related to dingos, jackals, ect.

Of course with all the cross breeding it has been hard to trace back true origins as so much has been mixed in.

more evidence that we evolved from apes: look at the many skeletal remains of upright walking apes, primitive hominids, and neanderthals. they are not modern humans but are not modern apes either, they are half way between and they are obviously our ancestors, are you going to deny their existance? many say "they havent found the missing link", all you have to do is watch the discovery channel, the remains are out there.

Ah yes but there is that missing link. Without it the debate can go both ways. You can say it's prehistoric humans and I can say it's prehistoric remains of bigfoot.

I find this part hard because we've found dino bones, hell we've found small bits of dino DNA yet we can't find skeletons of man's entire evolutionary track the past several thousand years in a nice long detail showing us each step?

any kind of written "proof" is infact not proof, but considered to be the weakest form of evidence. man has the capacity to lie and they have done so many times throughout history. there is also written "proof" and testimonials of ghosts, alien abductions, bigfoot, mermaids, and the lock ness monster so according to your logic these must all be true..

These haven't been proven false though either. I don't think anybody can say for example aliens/lock ness/ghost are 100% un-real and don't exist.

there is no real world evidence for the existance of a god.

Well this argument can go both ways. You ask about God but I can ask the same for something like...oh a proton.

Can we smell God or a proton? No.
Can we taste God or a proton? No.
Can we hear God or a proton? No.
Can we touch God or a proton? No.
Can we seen God or a proton? No.

Now many of you will say "protons are real, God isn't." No. Protons are still a theory. All we have been able to see is the electron cloud. We have no idea what's in there. Now we have theorized that there are positive and negative forces going on here, but again, we don't have 100% evidence a proton and neutron are in there.

Some people even theorize there are even smaller "atoms" inside an atom itself. Others even theorize that atoms are not the smallest thing ever. Atoms are made of smaller type atoms which are made of smaller type atoms and it goes on and on until your mind can't even comprehend how small it is.

So there may be no real world evidence for a God but there is also no real world evidence that a proton even exist and it's the smallest thing found in nature.

First I'd like to thank you scorpion for typing up a reply and good argument.




Now you talk about morality in tribes as to protect those in the tribe but to attack those outside. What about others though?

As I stated, a lion will kill the cubs of a lioness if given the chance.

Wolves (or dogs) will kill each other in the pack when trying or trying to become the alpha male.

Also, a little off-topic but in the same area, females are held below males in several species. The male(s) controls the female(s), the female(s) eats after the male(s), the female(s) care for the young while male(s) don't, and so on. In our curent age of "equality" why should women be treated the same? If we share the same evolutionary tree with animals and evolved from them, why are we acting differently? Why are actions that the animals take ok but if we do it then it's frowned upon in our society?



This isn't exactly evolution. This goes along more with natural selection. Although evolution is tied in I think it's a little bit different.



Sorry but you're a bit off. All dogs are not related to wolves. Many see the social relation but I looked at this and larger dogs seem to have ties to wolves yet smaller ones and certain breeds are more related to dingos, jackals, ect.

Of course with all the cross breeding it has been hard to trace back true origins as so much has been mixed in.



Ah yes but there is that missing link. Without it the debate can go both ways. You can say it's prehistoric humans and I can say it's prehistoric remains of bigfoot.

I find this part hard because we've found dino bones, hell we've found small bits of dino DNA yet we can't find skeletons of man's entire evolutionary track the past several thousand years in a nice long detail showing us each step?



These haven't been proven false though either. I don't think anybody can say for example aliens/lock ness/ghost are 100% un-real and don't exist.



Well this argument can go both ways. You ask about God but I can ask the same for something like...oh a proton.

Can we smell God or a proton? No.
Can we taste God or a proton? No.
Can we hear God or a proton? No.
Can we touch God or a proton? No.
Can we seen God or a proton? No.

Now many of you will say "protons are real, God isn't." No. Protons are still a theory. All we have been able to see is the electron cloud. We have no idea what's in there. Now we have theorized that there are positive and negative forces going on here, but again, we don't have 100% evidence a proton and neutron are in there.

Some people even theorize there are even smaller "atoms" inside an atom itself. Others even theorize that atoms are not the smallest thing ever. Atoms are made of smaller type atoms which are made of smaller type atoms and it goes on and on until your mind can't even comprehend how small it is.

So there may be no real world evidence for a God but there is also no real world evidence that a proton even exist and it's the smallest thing found in nature.


haha, as always, an intellegent and well put together argument, i always have to put some thought into topping you muscletang.


yes, but this violence is all due to competition. those cubes the lion kills are not his own cubs, not like him, and therefore a threat to his survival. and it is different in all animals, so you cant really compare lions and wolves to something with complex cognitive abilities such as ourselves. you also have to draw a line between morality and survival, does the lion kill the antelope out of hatred or for survival, morality has to take a back seat to survival, and survival is not a big issue with modern humans so you see more instances of morality.


i guess it is natural selection, but n.s. is the method by which to evolve. n.s. is the selecting of traits while evolution is the long term changes associated with generations of n.s.


i may be incorrect but i beleive dingos were once a domesticated breed of dog that now runs wild. even if all dogs dont trace back to wolves, most of them do and you can still see large differences in those dogs indicitive of natural or rather unnatural selection. you still have to agree that the canine has gone through many changes over time, which is exactly what evolution is.




i think neandertal remains are too human looking to be a kind of bigfoot, not to mention a neandertal/modern human hybrid skeleton has been recovered. these remains are not as frequent though because hominids are a fragile species and havent been large in numbers until modern times. with frail bodies , and only a good brain, its hard to be succesful. it is not until the modern human evolved that a hominid was succesful enough to avoid extinction.




i know that they havent been proven false, but according to the logic of the poster i was replying to these testimonials were substantial evidence. you also can not disprove that there is a pink leprecaun dancing in front of my screen, but if i said there was, that doesnt mean it is good evidence to back up the leprechaun theory.



yes, you cant prove a proton, but all tests reveal that there is something there, we like to call that thing a proton, it could logically be something else, but there is something there emitting a positive charge. no its not 100% proven, nothing in science is, but there is enough evidence supporting so that the general concensus is that it is real.

Those skeletons they find intrigue me...they only have a few right? What evidence is there that they are not simply malformed humans or apes....some have been found with tools, so some are at least semi-intelligent...you have to wonder. I mean think about all of the wierd looking people in the world today. What's to stop scientists from finding michael jackson in 100 years and thinking he's an alien? (obviously science will prevent that, but you see what I'm getting at right?)

haha, as always, an intellegent and well put together argument, i always have to put some thought into topping you muscletang.

Same here man. I really enjoy it though. It's fun to debate in a friendly way but it also gives me a chance to question my beliefs and try to come up with something to back them up. If I can't though...well I'm in trouble.

yes, but this violence is all due to competition. those cubes the lion kills are not his own cubs, not like him, and therefore a threat to his survival. and it is different in all animals, so you cant really compare lions and wolves to something with complex cognitive abilities such as ourselves. you also have to draw a line between morality and survival, does the lion kill the antelope out of hatred or for survival, morality has to take a back seat to survival, and survival is not a big issue with modern humans so you see more instances of morality.

Ah yes but when does that change? When did man make a decision to stay moral over survival? I mean the very first laws were made around 3-4,000 years ago by Habirabi of Babolayn. They were not made though because he though "hey this will be moral." He said they were given to him by God (or Gods I can't remember their religion).

So our very first laws, that we know of, are not based on a moral stance but religion. I mean there was a whole lot of killing and people were pretty much running wild. The point I'm trying to make though is people didn't just come together and say, "hey, this might not be the best way to go about things." They said, "oh our God(s) don't like this and want us to stop."

i may be incorrect but i beleive dingos were once a domesticated breed of dog that now runs wild. even if all dogs dont trace back to wolves, most of them do and you can still see large differences in those dogs indicitive of natural or rather unnatural selection. you still have to agree that the canine has gone through many changes over time, which is exactly what evolution is.

Well I just looked up the dogs and it said that not all came from wolves. I'm not sure about all the classes and such. As they said, there has been so much cross-breeding it's hard to tell.

Anyway, lets stay with this and say this. All dogs came from a primitive wolf. All apes and humans came from some sort of "ape/human thing."

All dogs are different BUT most of them are in a certain intellegence range. There is a list here but an example is the German Shepard and a Roteweiler. Both are traced back to the wolf. Both look different but are dogs. The German Shepard though is smarter than the Roteweiler though. The thing is all dogs are in the same area of intellegence right?

Now on to apes and humans. Are apes and humans the same in intellegence? No.

If apes and humans evolved from the same creature then why aren't we living on Planet of the Apes? I'll agree that apes have shown extreme smarts like in using very basic tools, sign language, painting, and basic communications. The thing is though some of this had to be taught. As far as I know we haven't found ape sculptures or paintings. If we have (which I think we haven't) it wouldn't even compare to the early human artifacts. Apes have a language among one another, all animals do. Have apes wrote it down though? Have we found evidence to show apes have started a simple civilization that matches are earlier ones?

Apes never seemed to "go up a level" as they went on. Humans became smarter and started to think. I mean I don't think there's a monkey version of Plato running around somewhere.

Something else though that humans have that no other creature seems to have is philosophy. Early humans had it and the Greeks and Romans took it and ran with it.

i think neandertal remains are too human looking to be a kind of bigfoot, not to mention a neandertal/modern human hybrid skeleton has been recovered. these remains are not as frequent though because hominids are a fragile species and havent been large in numbers until modern times. with frail bodies , and only a good brain, its hard to be succesful. it is not until the modern human evolved that a hominid was succesful enough to avoid extinction.

I have to disagree with the frail bodies. I mean we have bones and had bones back then. We're finding the bones of dinosaures the size of chickens and dinosaure eggs. So what would cause early "ape like" man to crumble and be hard to recover?

Evidence we can look to though is cave paintings and the earliest forms of art. I think the oldest cave paintings are close to 12,000 years old. Do the humans in there look much different? Maybe in size due to diet but there doesn't seem to be much evidence to show they're just taking shape from their ape stage.

i know that they havent been proven false, but according to the logic of the poster i was replying to these testimonials were substantial evidence. you also can not disprove that there is a pink leprecaun dancing in front of my screen, but if i said there was, that doesnt mean it is good evidence to back up the leprechaun theory.

True but there has been evidence but I'll address that below.

yes, you cant prove a proton, but all tests reveal that there is something there, we like to call that thing a proton, it could logically be something else, but there is something there emitting a positive charge. no its not 100% proven, nothing in science is, but there is enough evidence supporting so that the general concensus is that it is real.

What about ghost though? People who believe in God don't believe in ghost. People who don't believe in God also don't believe in ghost. We do have evidence that "something" is there. Electromagnetic readings, temperature readings, and also video and audio recordings. So is the general concensus then that ghost are real since there has been scientific evidence?

Now I went with that point to go with this one. While people are still skeptics even though that is thrown at them, others show different evidence of Godly things. There have been pictures taken of angles and other "godly" things. I don't really know the list but I know it's out there.

(Note: I went a bit with ghost because most who believe in ghost believe that that's proof that there is more to this life after our death. Now I'm trying to just go with the argument of a "God" in this. I'm not trying to prove a Christain, Muslim, or Buddist God. Just a higher power.)

Well I just looked up the dogs and it said that not all came from wolves. I'm not sure about all the classes and such. As they said, there has been so much cross-breeding it's hard to tell.

Anyway, lets stay with this and say this. All dogs came from a primitive wolf. All apes and humans came from some sort of "ape/human thing."

All dogs are different BUT most of them are in a certain intellegence range. There is a list here but an example is the German Shepard and a Roteweiler. Both are traced back to the wolf. Both look different but are dogs. The German Shepard though is smarter than the Roteweiler though. The thing is all dogs are in the same area of intellegence right?

Nope, all dogs are not of the same intelligence. As they were selected for by humans, differences in brain structure led to differences in intelligence. There's going to be differences between species, just as there are differences between humans and chimps.


Now on to apes and humans. Are apes and humans the same in intellegence? No.

If apes and humans evolved from the same creature then why aren't we living on Planet of the Apes? I'll agree that apes have shown extreme smarts like in using very basic tools, sign language, painting, and basic communications. The thing is though some of this had to be taught. As far as I know we haven't found ape sculptures or paintings. If we have (which I think we haven't) it wouldn't even compare to the early human artifacts. Apes have a language among one another, all animals do. Have apes wrote it down though? Have we found evidence to show apes have started a simple civilization that matches are earlier ones?

Apes never seemed to "go up a level" as they went on. Humans became smarter and started to think. I mean I don't think there's a monkey version of Plato running around somewhere.

I don't understand how your argument here is supposed to be used in opposition to evolutionary theory. Apes and humans diverged about 6 million years ago and we have both moved along our own evolutionary path that allowed us to better survive and reproduce in our respective environments. For humans, that meant increased "intelligence", the ability to communicate with formal structured language, and the ability to walk upright. For higher apes, it meant increased strength, opposable large toes (which WOULD be extremely useful for humans if we had them, so why don't we?) Intelligence does not indicate that humans are somehow better than other species, it simply means that our survival/reproduction favored individuals with ever increasing intelligence. We would be far better off if we could selectively shock other species, spit venom, inject neurotoxins, I could go on forever. But we don't have those traits, because they weren't selected for in humans. Mutations that caused increases in survival/reproduction of our species are the cause of our intelligence.


I have to disagree with the frail bodies. I mean we have bones and had bones back then. We're finding the bones of dinosaures the size of chickens and dinosaure eggs. So what would cause early "ape like" man to crumble and be hard to recover?

You have to bear in mind that fossilization is an extremely exacting process. Sometimes bones will fossilize, sometimes they won't. That being said, there are thousands of bones from the course of human evolution that trace back to about 5 million years ago, which does show a steady progression from an ape-like creature to modern humans. Intermediate forms ARE observed in the fossil record, contrary to popular belief. Just pick up any introductory physical anthropology textbook and see for yourself.


What about ghost though? People who believe in God don't believe in ghost. People who don't believe in God also don't believe in ghost. We do have evidence that "something" is there. Electromagnetic readings, temperature readings, and also video and audio recordings. So is the general concensus then that ghost are real since there has been scientific evidence?

Now I went with that point to go with this one. While people are still skeptics even though that is thrown at them, others show different evidence of Godly things. There have been pictures taken of angles and other "godly" things. I don't really know the list but I know it's out there.


I'd love to see you post a link that shows an experiment done using sound scientific techniques that shows definitive evidence of ghosts. I'm doubting that one.

Nope, all dogs are not of the same intelligence. As they were selected for by humans, differences in brain structure led to differences in intelligence. There's going to be differences between species, just as there are differences between humans and chimps.

True. As I said there's a list showing which dogs are smarter and which aren't as smart. The thing is if you have two different types, like a pit bull and poodle, you'll probably see some differences but nothing to show one species is far more advanced than the other in the smarts department.

I don't understand how your argument here is supposed to be used in opposition to evolutionary theory. Apes and humans diverged about 6 million years ago and we have both moved along our own evolutionary path that allowed us to better survive and reproduce in our respective environments. For humans, that meant increased "intelligence", the ability to communicate with formal structured language, and the ability to walk upright. For higher apes, it meant increased strength, opposable large toes (which WOULD be extremely useful for humans if we had them, so why don't we?) Intelligence does not indicate that humans are somehow better than other species, it simply means that our survival/reproduction favored individuals with ever increasing intelligence. We would be far better off if we could selectively shock other species, spit venom, inject neurotoxins, I could go on forever. But we don't have those traits, because they weren't selected for in humans. Mutations that caused increases in survival/reproduction of our species are the cause of our intelligence.

Ok let me be more specific. Humans have...

Philosophy or a love a knowledge. We are doing it now. What is justic? What is God? What is our purpose? We question this, we strive for the truth. I haven't seen a show that tells of another species that tries to analize its life or define what it is.

Sculptures of people or things. Do they have a purpose of survival? No. Why did we sculpt this stuff? Because we could? Have we found apes or any other animals in nature that sculpt things just to sculpt them?

Architecture. Beavers build dams as homes. Birds build nest. Termites build mounds. Why don't we do the same? Why is it we "add" to it with art or a certain shape to appease the eye? Look at stone henge. We don't build buildings just to serve a purpose. We want to make them bigger, shape them differently, or add to them. Why is that?

Art. Cave paintings, sculptures, carvings in cliffs, great buildings, poetry, songs. We're expressing ourselves in many ways. Trying to find new ways every single day. Why?

Drinks. We made wine and beer thousands of years ago and that's a couple of examples. All we really need is water but we've gone to lengths to make others.

All of these things have nothing to do with survival. Most of these things take time to do and sometimes even risk ones life. Why are humans the only ones who seem to do this. We seem to be the only species that expresses itself.

Now I know whales sing songs and other animals howel but that's it. These have been said to be mating calls or messages passed on. Do animals make wine? Do animals make sculptures or try to "take a picture" (aka paint/draw) their environment?

You have to bear in mind that fossilization is an extremely exacting process. Sometimes bones will fossilize, sometimes they won't. That being said, there are thousands of bones from the course of human evolution that trace back to about 5 million years ago, which does show a steady progression from an ape-like creature to modern humans. Intermediate forms ARE observed in the fossil record, contrary to popular belief. Just pick up any introductory physical anthropology textbook and see for yourself.

I've looked and most people still talk of a "gap." This gap is the fossils of the period that actually shows the transformation we were suppose to take. Evolutionist say it will only take time. While the other side says it's proof it didn't happen.

I'd love to see you post a link that shows an experiment done using sound scientific techniques that shows definitive evidence of ghosts. I'm doubting that one.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I think Damien is a ghost hunter. So I think he may know more about this than me.

The thing is though is there is evidence of a type. When somebody sees a "ghost" there have been spikes in electromagnetic fields in the area. Where a "ghost" is, that area has shown to have a different temperature. Sometimes it's cold and sometimes it's hot. Now is it evidence to show it's "ghost"? No. Is something going on though that can't be explained? Yes.

God is in Heaven

Same here man. I really enjoy it though. It's fun to debate in a friendly way but it also gives me a chance to question my beliefs and try to come up with something to back them up. If I can't though...well I'm in trouble.



Ah yes but when does that change? When did man make a decision to stay moral over survival? I mean the very first laws were made around 3-4,000 years ago by Habirabi of Babolayn. They were not made though because he though "hey this will be moral." He said they were given to him by God (or Gods I can't remember their religion).

So our very first laws, that we know of, are not based on a moral stance but religion. I mean there was a whole lot of killing and people were pretty much running wild. The point I'm trying to make though is people didn't just come together and say, "hey, this might not be the best way to go about things." They said, "oh our God(s) don't like this and want us to stop."


those were the first written laws, in primitive nomadic societies clan members who murdered another clan member were either executed or banished from the clan at the discretion of the clan leader, why? becuase this was counterproductive, whereas there would be no penalty for the killing of an opposing clan member.


Apes never seemed to "go up a level" as they went on. Humans became smarter and started to think. I mean I don't think there's a monkey version of Plato running around somewhere.


sure there is, he works at some university, practicing sign language with human scientists, i cant remember his name.





I have to disagree with the frail bodies. I mean we have bones and had bones back then. We're finding the bones of dinosaures the size of chickens and dinosaure eggs. So what would cause early "ape like" man to crumble and be hard to recover?

i dont think you got what i meant, i wasnt talking about recovering them but rather, the reason they are not abundant is because hominids never were high in numbers because they were physically vulnerable(to attacks by predators, disease and so on)



Evidence we can look to though is cave paintings and the earliest forms of art. I think the oldest cave paintings are close to 12,000 years old. Do the humans in there look much different? Maybe in size due to diet but there doesn't seem to be much evidence to show they're just taking shape from their ape stage.


i know there are cave paintings dating back to the ice age, 25k bc, and evidence of human occupation far earlier.





What about ghost though? People who believe in God don't believe in ghost. People who don't believe in God also don't believe in ghost. We do have evidence that "something" is there. Electromagnetic readings, temperature readings, and also video and audio recordings. So is the general concensus then that ghost are real since there has been scientific evidence?

yes but these readings arent really taken by acceptable scientific measures. not to mention an em spike can be caused by anything, static electricity, lightning, etc.

You need more faith to believe in evolution than to believe in God. There is absolutely no proof for evolution. Thats why they call it a "theory." Where are the bones of the transitional forms that would have had to exist if evolution were true. You would think that we could find at least one fossil.
lAnd we should be swimming in live transitional forms today since evolution is a continuous process. There is no doubt that evolution is your religeon.
Good luck crispy critter. You get burned up with the Devil and the False Phrophet.

You need more faith to believe in evolution than to believe in God. There is absolutely no proof for evolution. Thats why they call it a "theory." Where are the bones of the transitional forms that would have had to exist if evolution were true. You would think that we could find at least one fossil.
lAnd we should be swimming in live transitional forms today since evolution is a continuous process. There is no doubt that evolution is your religeon.
Good luck crispy critter. You get burned up with the Devil and the False Phrophet.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2006/04/06/MNGCGI4CAD1.DTL

Lungfish?

Mudskipper?

You need more faith to believe in evolution than to believe in God. There is absolutely no proof for evolution. Thats why they call it a "theory." Where are the bones of the transitional forms that would have had to exist if evolution were true. You would think that we could find at least one fossil.
lAnd we should be swimming in live transitional forms today since evolution is a continuous process. There is no doubt that evolution is your religeon.
Good luck crispy critter. You get burned up with the Devil and the False Phrophet.

I would like to take the opportunity to congratulate you, newb, on your honorary "dumbest first post in the history of AF" award. Congratulations on your sheer ignorance and lack of knowledge.:shakehead Now go back to high school, pick up a basic biology book, and start doing something called reading. You'll find much help here.
http://www.starfall.com/

You need more faith to believe in evolution than to believe in God. There is absolutely no proof for evolution. Thats why they call it a "theory." Where are the bones of the transitional forms that would have had to exist if evolution were true. You would think that we could find at least one fossil.
lAnd we should be swimming in live transitional forms today since evolution is a continuous process. There is no doubt that evolution is your religeon.
Good luck crispy critter. You get burned up with the Devil and the False Phrophet.

Gravity is a theory too.
Do you think if you drop your keys they're not going to fall to the ground?
Because I do, I have faith in key levitation and gravity is only a theory. I hope you and I can become good friends since our beliefs are so similar.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2006/04/06/MNGCGI4CAD1.DTL


that's kewl

And we should be swimming in live transitional forms today since evolution is a continuous process

We are dude. We're transitional forms.

Good luck crispy critter. You get burned up with the Devil and the False Phrophet.

But hell can't be THAT bad. If it's the exact opposite of heaven, wouldn't there be gambling, booze, and STD-free hookers? Sounds like my kinda' town.

God is up there racing with Dale Earnhardt, Gilles Villeneuve and Ayrton Senna.