NOT the end of my '93 metro...Life after death! RINGS

Thank goodness you have a great sense of humor geozukigti. If you are looking at a metric tap and die set or nuts and bolts at the hardware store, geozukigti statement about all metric bolts would be correct. When you are working with metric bolts on an engine etc. there are many different tollerance bolts possible with the same dia. and pitch. Unlike the markings on USS and SAE threaded bolt heads the numbers on the head of a metric bolt mean much more. Here is a link showing how many different tollerances there are for each pitch of metric bolt. This is why taps and dies in a metric tap and die set can not be right on for every bolt or nut (block in this case) on an engine.

http://www.boltscience.com/pages/screw8.htm

Lord no!
I wouldn't ever think of tightening my 'homemade thread clearer' except by hand !

I tried reading your link to thread design...I have a PhD in Chemistry and I can
understand barely a word of that. Good thing I didn't go into Engineering, Huh?

The NEW BOLTS that I bought from Schucks came in a FEL-PRO box and are
numbered ES74021 GEO 3 60 (1.0L) Eng. 1989-97 Made in USA

The bolt head has an "M" stamped in it - or is that a "W" ?

Question - does anyone know how much farther the threaded hole in the
Engine Block goes down past the length required for the bolt? i.e. How much lee-way was
designed into the bolt hole so that it doesn't bottom out and not allow any
further tightening?

I could measure that by sticking a small rod down inside, but I don't know how
much to add for the head and the Head Gasket, etc.

Is there some standard amount a hole is drilled to allow for "play" in bolt
length so some space is left over? That is to say, how much crap can fall into
the hole before it becomes a problem?

Just asking - wanted to know. Its my nature.

DoctorBill

You asked, Do you understand Torque To Yield specs and tightening procedure
for your head bolts?

The answer is no.

I have no idea what you are talking about.

Does one not just tighten the bolts to the ft-lbs specified in the manual?

I bought a Torque Wrench a while back for this sort of thing and for lug nuts.

DoctorBill

OK, "JustSayGo"....here is a picture of my Gaskets (and more).
Can't find my can of "Formagasket" so - what is recommended?
I found a bottle of NAPA Gasket Shellac (BALKAMP)

http://img70.imageshack.us/img70/7254/gaskets3gt4.jpg

Here is a pic of my Assembly Lube, Rod End Bearings, Ring Compressor and Thread gauges.

http://img53.imageshack.us/img53/3474/threadgaugesetc1xz5.jpg

This is what I do for all my vehicles so I can have the information right at hand...
I make a place under the hood for useful info. Oil Change mileage, belt numbers
Filter numbers, capacities, oil weight, etc. etc. etc.
Note that I wrote the oil plug wrench size needed! Don't have to fart around figuring
that out anymore! Can't remember it either....

http://img53.imageshack.us/img53/9529/infohoodfk6.jpg

Then here is my baby and my current "ride" while Baby has heart surgery.

Two Jack-Stands hold the front up - I'm not stupid!

http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/2599/jackedup1tf9.jpg

DoctorBill

Good link on the bolts Justsaygo. I guess my old engineering/CAD instructor was just full of himself being right all the time :grinyes: . He's an old school U.S. measurement kinda guy anyway, probably didn't even understand the metric system. Sorry if I sounded too snappy. I was kinda hung over from my long weekend in Put-in-bay, ohio :banghead: . My sense of humor is usually a bit more keen :icon16: .
And yes Bill, please don't use more than hand tension on your tool you made. Have you cleaned off the deck surface on the block? They make a gel-like spray that breaks up headgasket gunk real good. Don't scrape it with anything metal!! The worst you should do to it is to do a final cleaning with a fairly soft scouring pad. Don't press too hard though. Sweet jeep btw! It's hard to find the old 2 door Cherokee's.

"They make a gel-like spray that breaks up headgasket gunk real good."

Who makes it - where can I buy it - how do I use it...?

That would be nice stuff - like oven cleaner cuts the crap in ovens!

This burned on Carbon is a bastard to get off!

DoctorBIll

PS - Come to Spokane, WA. Jeeps are like field mice here - Gozillions for sale everywhere, CHEAP!

It's pretty common at auto parts stores. There's lots of brands of it. Just look for anything that says "gasket remover" on it. You spray it on, wait about 10 minutes, and it turns the gasket to goop that can be wiped off with a paper towel, shop rag, or a plastic scraper. Clean the surface off with brake cleaner before putting the headgasket on tho. Any residue could slowly eat the gasket away. As for your burned carbon, use de-carb solution. Should come in a bucket. It works wonders on carbon deposits!!

Gasket remover spray and oven cleaner are the same. Oven cleaner works and is probably how it got the gasket remover label put on the same can.

If you find that can of Permatex with the label painted onto the can, I'm sure it has some increasing value as an antique just like quart tins of oil. Don't use any sealer on the head gasket, exhaust gasket, or intake gasket. Many sealers are not O2 safe and the fumes drawn into the intake are detrimental to O2 sensors. Read the Fel-Pro instructions about where to use dabs of RTV with the valve cover gasket. Fel-Pro's gasket info will interest you.

I have trouble following all of the engineering words on that bolt link as well
and boltscience.com seemed far better than some others I scanned accross. The point is that the correct metric bolt should be used and torqued to the correct spec. being far more important than USS & SAE fasteners on older U.S. manufactured engines. If you loose a bolt, even the dealer goes to the hardware store. And more common than not, even (maybe especially) at dealerships, power tools are used to tighten bolts during repair without torqueing to the correct spec.

If there is an engineering spec for the depth of a threaded hole or the un-used threads on a bolt, i have never heard of it which probably means, yes there probably is, but i have never heard of it!

The reason you have new bolts is because the torque-to-yield process stretches the bolt because of planned overtightening which results in a more consistent pressure spread accross the entire gasket and mating surfaces. TTY leaves the head bolts at a veriety of torques yet maintains more consistant pressure where it is desired.

What does you torque spec say for the head bolts?

Maybe something like 55 ftlbs + 90 degrees? Useing your torque wrench, tighten the bolts in three steps following the correct bolt sequence. eg. Run them down with a speed handle, torque to 35 or 40 ftlbs and then to 55 ftlbs useing the torque wrench. Now use a breaker bar and turn each bolt the additional number of degrees following the correct sequence. You can paint lines on the bolt heads and cyl head if you like. You may see the bolt head turn away from the lines on its own after you have tightened it. Re-alligning the marks again will make no differance because the bolt is in it's yield zone. The threads don't move, the bolt just un-twists a few degrees sometimes. Obviosly some bolts will feel tighter than others.

GeoSuzukiGTI - DeCarb Solution....what Brand is it and who sells it ?

No One here in Spokane knows squat about "DeCarb"....!
Buckets or not. Never heard of it - I have asked several places.

JustSayGo - if things haven't changed in ten years, then Oven Cleaner is gelled and
concentrated Lye. Sodium Hydroxide. Hideously corrosive to Aluminum and Magnesium.

Sodium Hydroxide (NaOH) reacts with Aluminum and Magnesium, like the Alien's Acid
Blood cut thru the space ship's hull in the SciFi movie "Alien" and "Aliens" with Sigorney Weaver.

I have my students drop Aluminum Foil into dilute sodium hydroxide and it foams, gets
very hot, and along with quickly dissolving the Aluminum makes hydrogen gas....

Don't ever get Oven Cleaner anywhere near any Aluminum! EVER!

This gasket remover spray is probably more like paint remover solvent - a very nasty blend
of clorinated hydrocarbons (Methylene Chloride) and other nasty stuff.

There is a paint remover my wife used that would remove paint from the walls of Hell itself!
Comes in Yellow gallon cans - JASCO - SPEEDOMATIC - it was hideous and wretched stuff.
http://www.jasco-help.com/products/prod_rem.htm
You had to wear industrial black gloves to use it. Worked like a charm, though.

Here is a different brand we have in our garage that has attacked its own can !

http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/7451/paintremoverbg8.jpg

All these organic, aggressive thinners contain Methylene Chloride - nasty stuff that goes directly
into your skin, dissolves in your fat and ends up in your Liver causing cancer later in life.
Beware of it! Don't breath it or let it get on your skin..... Otherwise it is neat stuff !

Beware water based paint strippers - they contain Sodium Hydroxide (Lye).

Remember the old Drain-O....powdered Lye and Aluminum chips. Got very hot (melted the fat in the
drain) and made gas bubbles (hydrogen) to force the blockage out.

My advice as a Chemist, is to try whatever you use (that is not sold by an automotive
company in the first place) on a piece of Aluminum or plastic.

If it corrodes the Aluminum or plastic, then don't use it.

As to Torque-to-Yield...Never heard of such a thing. Yowie! Now I am worried I'll break a
bolt inside the engine.....

Here is what is in the Chilton Manual, p 3-13 upper right corner of page...quoted
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
15. Install the cylinder head and eight cylinder head bolts. Lubricate the head bolts with
engine oil prior to installation.

16. Tighten cylinder head bolts in the proper sequence to 54 ft lbs (73 Nm) on 1998 and
earlier models, or 49 ft lbs (68 Nm) on 1999 and later models.
Repeat tighten sequence several times before reaching specified torque figure.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

So...nothing about a 90 degree turn after reaching the 54 ft lbs. Probably retightening several
times acomplishes the same task....

The ITM gaskets came with absolutely zip instructions! The Head Gasket has no indication
of up or down side - and it is not exactly obvious what orientation fits all these holes in the
head and engine top! See pic below.... Where does the metal rimmed hole go - upper left corner of gasket?

http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/4092/gasketorientation1ca4.jpg

There are more holes in this head than in a piece of French Bread! They don't all line up with
the holes in the headgasket....or the engine top.

Lucky I saved the old headgasket! That ought to help orient this bugger....

DoctorBill

Ring gap.......

The Chilton Manual says the following (p 3-35 to 3-36 #1 b) Quote

b. Position the ring in the bore in which it is going to be used .

c. Push the ring down into the bore area where normal ring wear is not encountered.

on and on....

What does the bold part of the statement mean? Where are they talking about?

On page 3-2 the ring gap maximum is supposed to be

top ring - 0.0276 inch
Second ring - same
Oil ring - 0.0708 inch.

My only question is - where in the cylinder are they talking about?

And - I presume this is after honing the cylinders.....yes?

If the gaps are larger than the specs, I take the rings I bought back and hope Schucks exchanges them
for "oversized" rings....yes?

Are there degrees of 'oversized' ? Like "way oversized" and "your engine is shot, Bud !"

All Schucks shows is 0.50 mm oversized. Where is that dimension? In diameter...?

DoctorBill

The metal ring goes to the rear of the block. Coolant goes into the waterpump and flows around the cylinders to the rear of the block and then through the two oblong holes up into the cylinder head flowing forward in the cylinder head to the thermostat that controls flow to the radiator or recirculates coolant through the block if the coolant is not warm enough to open the t-stat. There is a hole for the front dowel pin at the end of the gasket opposite of the oblong holes. The picture looks to me like the head gasket will only go on one way.

Yes this is after honing. The greatest cylinder wear is at the top just below where the ridge was. The cylinder wears in a taper from that point to the lowest point that the rings travel. You don't want to measure and fit rings where the cylinder is worn the most and then have the gap close and touch as the piston slides them down inside the cylinder while the engine is running.

Recheck the end gap spec. Ring gap is roughly .004 in X the bore dia. You should be looking at about .012 inch gap for the top rings.

0.027 6 centimeter = 0.010 866 142 inch

http://www.onlineconversion.com/length_common.htm

If the oversize rings still could not be fit to specs the block would be bored oversize for larger pistons and rings.

.0276 inches is the maximum service limit.

$50 for a few instructions is too much. I saw part of an engine assembly line at a plant on Discovery Channel earlier this evening. Robots performing unthinkable tasks so quick and accurate.

The robots squeezed just the right amount of RTV onto clean surfaces. The bead on your oil pan should be about 1/8" diameter, smooth as possible so that bubbles can't form when RTV is squeezed between tightened parts. Draw circles around each bolt hole and connect each circle. Don't wait for the RTV to skin over, just bolt it to the block.

On the valve cover gasket, use a dab of RTV the size as an eraser of a new pencil in each of the four corners where the arch of the cam bearing caps are at the ends of the head. The end bearing caps should have a very small amount of RTV between the cap and the head that will connect from the dabs to the cam seal. Smear a thin coat of RTV on the arches and assemble the rocker cover.

Waiting 24 hrs for RTV to cure after assembly is not neccasary but won't cause a problem either way.

RTV color doesn't really matter. High temp is only rated 50 degrees warmer than regular blue which is exactly the same as black. Maybe silver blue or copper seem better. I like the light grey because it is the newest color that I know of and was also the color that the robots were squeezing.

DOC;
I believe the de-carb solution GEOZUKIGTI is referring to is carburator cleaner something like this: http://www.gunk.com/prod_photo.asp?img=LG_CC3K.JPG I'd suggest checking your ring gap several places (top/middle/bottom) in the cylinder then you'll know you have covered all your bases. You are right this is after honing.

You seem to have a bare lead headgasket. I prefer the coated gaskets myself, because they don't require any type of sealer. On yours however, I would suggest giving it a coating of copper gasket spray before installing it. It will help the gasket bond to the block and head better, and since you're not having the block decked, it will fill in the tiny imperfections in the surface. Be fairly conservative with it though, or you'll have a problem! As for the headbolts, I've never heard of this torque degree thing either. I've built anything from a 3cy geo motor to a 1000hp 570cu chevy big block, and have never had a "torque angle degree". If you did a 90 degree turn after 54ft-lbs, you'd end up with about 100ft-lbs :nono: . Torque them to spec, no more, no less. One thing you can do is re-torque them after about 1000 miles of driving, just to make sure they all are behaving themselves :). When you go to torque the headbolts down, make sure you do it in at least 3 steps(I do 4). I always go 15ft-lbs, then 25ft-lbs, then 40ft-lbs, then 54ft-lbs.

This is not a Lead (Pb) gasket!

I found the Federal-Mogul Web Site

http://www.federalmogul.com/en/OETechnology/SealingSystems/Gaskets/CylinderHeadGasket/

and they sell Steel backed Head Gaskets with Silicone covering.

I put a strong magnet on my FEL-PRO HeadGasket and it stuck to it hard.
So this is a steel gasket with some sticky feeling, rubbery backing on both sides (Silicone?)

That must be the Permadry or Permadry Plus backing.

"PermaDry gaskets, made of molded rubber, are excellent as replacement
parts on engines that were originally equipped with molded-rubber gaskets.
PermaDryPlus gaskets have a rigid carrier and molded-silicone rubber sealing
bead. They are designed and built specifically to seal difficult problem leaks."

So I suppose all I need do is clean and dry the two surfaces and use no
gasket material....(?)

I cannot find any instructions - even on the web site! How Dumb...

Who is dumber - me or them!?

DoctorBill

PS - just got a brainstorm and called the Head Repair place I used...talked to The Man...
He said, "Use nothing. Place it dry between the Head and Block and screw the head on.
The rubbery stuff melts into place. Thats all she wrote."

Got my answer....

Ring end gap in this engine should be measured about 2 1/2" down from the top of the block. This is where you cover all your bases rather than measuring at varios locations in the tapered area of the cyl.

I searched for instructions also without success. Maybe your gaskets came in a white box without labeling that machine shops often use because they are much more economical. Same quality different packaging. Fel-Pro brown boxes with red and blue labeling have helpful instructions... that many people never read.

Anyone who has not heard of TTY needs to learn. Over the past 25 years TTY has become more and more common. For the past few years more engines than not use TTY head bolts and specs. It is not uncommon that someone torques to the torque spec without adding the additional degrees that the spec calls for because they have never heard about TTY. Obviosly problems will follow for those individuals.

Looks and sounds like you have a PermaDry Plus head gasket. As Doc learned the head bolts should not be re-torqued. Torque the head bolts to the correct spec, the end! That will work.

If the manufacture has changed to TTY specs on later years of the same engine, following the update TTY specs is an upgrade that has been proven by the manufacture to be advantages. I have not found a TTY spec for this engine, yet I suspect there are newer specs for the head bolts than the Chilton Repair Manual. The examples given in my earlier post were examples, not instructions to follow.

The torque and additional degree specs are provided by the manufacture. Instructions vary for each application, they are not just guessed at. The additional degrees do not dramaticly increase torque beyond the torque only spec because the bolts stretch.

Here are a couple of links explaining Torque-To-Yield.

http://www.canadiandriver.com/articles/jk/040303.htm

http://www.robbos.com.au/myweb/Tech_Bolts.htm

Ahh good Bill :) Weird, usually silicone coated gaskets have rubber seals around the water jacket holes. The silicone gaskets are very common nowadays. Anyways, on to orientation of the gasket.. The dowells that were in the block that are used to line the head up with the block are in the top left, and lower right of the block. The headgasket has larger holes to slide over these hollow dowells. You cannot put the gasket on any other way when you have the dowell pins in the block. If that doesn't make sense, this will :) It's pretty simple when you look at the shape of the gasket and the block.
http://img175.imageshack.us/img175/544/puzzleah6.jpg

Ha Ha! I did not think to take the Head Gasket outside and compare it to the
engine block. Yes - would have been obvious....duuhhh...!

Not following something you wrote....Everything else makes splendid sense.

"The dowells that were in the block that are used to line the head up with the
block are in the top left, and lower right of the block. The headgasket has larger
holes to slide over these hollow dowells. You cannot put the gasket on any
other way when you have the dowell pins in the block.

What dowels are you talking about? Are there supposed to be some type of short rods
that I lost track of...?

When I had the Head Rebuild returned to me, I got a bag of screws and things
and there were two short pieces of "pipe" in the bag.

They are 0.688 inch long by 0.50 inch in diameter - look like they were yanked
out with pliers - ends chewed up. What were those from ?

So now I know how this is to be situated.

Seems to me that some of the "holes" in the gasket don't match the head or block all
that well! Doesn't help water flow rates and oil flow rates!

Two holes don't have corresponding holes in the Head.
Upper left and lower right in your retouch of my photo.

Also, why the metal ring around that one hole? I think maybe someone answered that before....?

http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/6159/puzzleah6bob3.jpg

I just bought a spray can of "KLEAN STRIP" Premium Stripper to try on the oil pan
and intake manifold goo that is stuck to them....Hope it works!

I will try it on some ALUMINUM FOIL first!

Also bought a tube of "AUTOMOTIVE GOOP" for the pan gasket. Package says
it is "Amazing". (Glues whatever- bonds forever) We will see what we will see.....

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
An experiment for all of you to try -

If anybody out there has some old solid powdered Drain-O or some solid or liquid
LYE - put about a half of a shotglass of liquid lye in a shotglass.
If you have the old solid Drain-O, pick 20 of the white crystals out and drop them into
the shotglass - add tablespoonful of water - mix with a SS spoon. Wash your hands off!
Gets very hot.

Ball up a postage stamp sized piece of Aluminum Foil and drop it into the lye.
Stand Back! Wait.... Lots of action soon! Light a match & hold it over the shotglass.

Keep kids away! The spray can blind you or them....hot lye is hideously dangerous.

THAT is what would happen to an Aluminum engine block if lye or Oven Cleaner
gets on the block...

When it is all over, pour it down the drain along with plenty of COLD water. Don't get
the liquid on your hands....Vinegar will neutralize it if it gets on you...!

DoctorBill

the Pipe things fit into the block to hold gasket in place while you put head on, if one end is chewed up put that end into the block, as long as they aren't loose they should be fine. they fit into the 2 end head bolt holes that are by the long slot water passages. the screw looking thing in the block is a oil restrictor for the head. thats why it has the extra boss around the gasket so it doesn't leak

I almost tossed those two pipe things away....thought they were something
from inside of the Head that was replaced during the rebuild.

I don't remember them protruding when I took it in to the Head Shop....

Do I actually need them? Are they required for "registration" of the Head and
Head Gasket? If so, I can dress them up with a file to remove the gashes in
them that the Head repair Shop made taking them out - with gas pliers?

http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/3538/twopipethingspm1.jpg

Or should I try to purchase new ones?

Odd that he didn't tell me about them when he returned the rebuilt Head...!
I will call him tomorrow and ask why they returned them so boogered up!
I would have to do a lot of filing to dress them up to where I'd trust them.

They fit into any of the four holes at the corners of the Head. (Picture)

http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/963/cylinderheadbottomtubesda7.jpg

Is this important?

DoctorBill

put them in the BLOCK. as long as they will tap in with the grip marks down they will work fine, yes you need them to hold the gasket in place on the BLOCK as you set the head on. will also align the head to the block properly. the part were they removed them will be below the block surface and as long as they are snug in there will pose no problems

OK - here is what I did.....BTW - Chilton says zip about the little pipe boogers!

Does oil or coolant pass thru these little pipe boogers?

I do not want to "tap them down into the head" because I am an anal retentive,
obsessive compulsive, perfectionist pekkerhead....

So, using a little trick I learned by watching several mechanics work
(when I was a teenager), I used a file to clean up the gashes in the 1/2 pipes
and then coated them with Black "Sharpie" Permanent Marker Ink.

I then tried to fit them into one of the four corner holes. I looked at the inked
end area and filed on that part where the ink was gone (rubbed off by the hole's
wall) and tried again (after reinking the filed area).

The areas where the ink is rubbed off got larger and larger until the unit fit
into the hole. The ink trick tells you where you need to file!

In that way, I got the little boogers to fit in the holes again.....

What are these two pieces of pipe referred to as?
Calling them "Little Pipe Boogers" is probably not acceptable to the sensitive individual.
Why did the Head Service treat them so shabbily?

At least they returned them - I would not have known about them if they hadn't...

DoctorBill

BTW - Watching other people work has several rewards.
It is pleasant because it is not you having to do it,
it is educational in that you learn things useful in your
later life - if you are smart enough to pay close attention and bug
the shit out of the worker by asking those questions!
Just beware - some people resent the questioning....

if they were stuck in the head they had to pull them out to surface the head. if you put them in the right holes on the block nothing other than a head bolt goes through them. the factory puts them in tight enough that they need to use a pair of vise grips to remove them. they are called locating dowels. if you put them back in the block they keep head gasket from sliding around as you set head back on, if you put them in the head the gasket on the top of the block will slide around as your trying to line head up. if i pull then out i always put the side i used pliers on down into the block, if they are to loose and wobble a bit i spread them with a screwdriver

DoctorBill, Since you are a long time poster, I feel like I've gotten to know you a little bit. Again, you are worrying about the smallest details here. There is a lot of interest in this post because you are doing the whole job and documenting it so well along the way....but please, lets get on with it! You need to spend less time typing, and more time getting the pistons installed, the pan back on, the head back on...etc. I want to know how well it will run! I feel like a kid waiting for Christmas as I check the post daily to see how it's progressing....And, I can't believe you're doing this all outside! Wow!

You know - I was wondering when someone would get on here and tell me to
get off my dead arse and Finish The Job Already!

This is scary stuff! If I screw up, I will lose the ~$400 I have into this already,
plus, the car will be dead meat after all the other money I have put into it.

Besides....Please sing along with me folks.....
"I beg your pardon! I didn't promise you a rose garden......"

I feel like the guy who is walking thru a minefield and everyone is yelling,
"Go on! Don't worry - be happy! No sweat! I'll follow your footsteps!"

Hey all you folks waiting on me, start a thread yourself! Take digital photos.
Am I the only person around? Let's see how brave you are!

A mechanic I ain't.......like to be, think I can be, but I ain't.

Having given my excuses - I finally honed the cylinders today.....
and like everything else about this job, it was no sweat - I worried too much.

Here are the pictures.

I bought a "bath scrubber" thing at Wal-Mart for cleaning out the cylinders.
It worked like a charm - conforms to the cylinder walls nicely and is very soft.
http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/3759/cleaningtool1ri3.jpg
Notice all the adhesive around the intake manifold (white arrows) from someone
else's work. Bought a can of spray paint remover for that.

http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/6496/cleaningtool2je7.jpg

Here is what my honing setup looked like when completed. I put the honer
in a plastic bag immediately to keep grit off of it. $22 for 60 seconds of use.

http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/5844/drillwithhoneli3.jpg

I honed up and down quickly for a slow count of 20.
Here is what the cylinders looked like after I honed.
Looks like the very center of the #1 cylinder was worn the most and got the
least honing marks....

http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/1272/honedall3dv5.jpg

Here is a close up of Cylinder #1
That cylinder (#1) seems to have worn more on the right side than on the left
side (facing the engine). The honing pattern is more complete on the left side.
Is that normal?

http://img236.imageshack.us/img236/1235/honedno1bx4.jpg

Cylinder #3

http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/755/honedno3hc0.jpg

I cannot tell if the proper "Cross-Hatch" pattern is there or not.
In any case, I wouldn't know how to change it anyway! I went up and down
rather fast to make the pattern...(?)

I believe that if one had a really slow drill (50 rpm?) that one could get those
30° crosshatch patterns, but with a fast drill (high rpms), I don't see how one
can do it....anybody?

And here is the registration hole for one of those two small pipe pieces.
The pipe fits in nicely. Looks like water moves thru it.

http://img57.imageshack.us/img57/7784/registrationpipeholegl3.jpg

The wind is blowing today and Milkweed seeds are stuck to all the oily surfaces!
Looks like its going to rain soon. Oh boy! Is this fun, or what!? Like Russian Roulette...

Actually, if this works, I will feel like Superman and Albert Einstein all rolled up into one.
But I will worry every day that something will go sideways and the engine will explode
at 55 mph on me. Its the way I am. Go figure!

Next - I will put the rings into the cylinder and measure the gaps.
Then I want to clean the Carbon out of the EGR passageway of the Intake Manifold all
the way to the EGR valve. I have a "Pull-n-Save" EGR valve that I previously cleaned
out (A thread with photos on the Forum).

I am in no hurry - I have my '91 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 and it won't snow for 2 to 3 months
(knock on wood). I start my Chem class monday (18th) with 50+ students.
Labs and quizzes to grade coming up. I am having a nervous kind of fun with this....

DoctorBill

BTW - Watching other people work has several rewards.
It is pleasant because it is not you having to do it,
it is educational in that you learn things useful in your
later life - if you are smart enough to pay close attention and bug
the shit out of the worker by asking those questions!
Just beware - some people resent the questioning....

Often times the worker is annoyed because they don't really know why.
I need to know why because my memory works better when I know why. I find the details interesting. Ignorance of details and not asking why before assembly, will sometimes or eventually always result in wondering why later, when the engine doesn't run as well as expected or worse.

The reason the machine shop wasn't more careful about removing your index guide tubes is because the mechanic is supposed to know and remove them. Somewhat experienced mechanics leave them in because they don't notice them or don't want to spend their time removing them, or are inconsiderate and expect the machine shop to have the correct tool to remove them without additional charge. The tubes could have just as easily stayed stuck in the block rather than the head.

Solid dowels are just as common. While watching and asking why at a machine shop I have heard machinists comment about the dowels not being removed by the mechanic and then surfacing the head without removing the dowels and returning the rebuilt heads for the mechanic to spend time removing the dowels by drilling them out and locating new dowels. It is all about teaching the mechanic (who probably tried to tell the machinist how to do his job at some point in the past) a lesson he will never forget. Maybe because of that opportunity, I look at and remove the index tubes or dowels. There are circumstances when both parts being assembled will have dowels or tubes. That won't work either. Your tubes can be straitened filed and ugly end put into the block as Crvett69 wrote.

Your tubes do not have oil or water passing through them. Bolts go through the tubes. The "what is this question" you asked on the head gasket picture, I think is where the oil goes into the head for the cam bearings.

Sitting here reading your response and eating Oatmeal cookies with fresh coffee.
No Boss telling me to hurry up and finish (except you folks!). Nice.....

Being semi-retired has certain advantages.....having lots of money is not among them.......

A comment on learning and watching - Ignorance is expensive!

These "index guide tubes" or "Locating dowels" - where does one obtain them?
Have not seen them for sale anywhere. Mine are OK now after about 45 minutes
of dressing them with a file as I previously described.

If you will go back to my posting about the honing job and look at the second
picture where the bath scrubber is in the #3 cylinder, you will see on the far left
of the engine block a small hole second up from the bottom.

I looked closer today and noticed that it has a Brass cat's eye slot in it and a
ball bearing underneath that slot.

Is that some type of "one-way valve" for something?

Does Oil or water go thru it? Just curious....

Going out to measure the Ring Gaps soon. Blowing like mad - does that
before a storm front comes in. Love it - crap gets into everything. Dirt...

This is wheat country. They are disking now and dust, pollen and dirt are in
the air blowing in clouds. Nothing can stay clean. All my vehicles look like
a bucket of dirt was thrown on them. A big bird crapped on my cement parking
pad as if a Hippopotamus dumped there! Must have been a huge bird - looks
like a quart of bird dump hit the driveway!

Come live in NorthEastern Washington State!

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i86/DoctorBill_SCC/OffBackPortch-2.jpg
Those are Wheat Fields.
http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i86/DoctorBill_SCC/TheTown-2.jpg
Wheat fields in the distant hillsides.
DoctorBill

if your really that worried about the locating guides i will pull you a good set and send them to you. like i said before the thing with a slot is the oil feed hole for the head, the check ball keeps it from draining back out when you turn engine off

You are the boss DoctorBill. The scrubber looks great. Maybe an even better tool is a new toilet bowl brush from the dollar store. Your cross-hatch honing looks good. Your correct, even slower turning speed would be better. The flex hones with the balls would have looked better in that you wouldn't notice any low spots in the cylinder. Looks aren't everything... in this case. As written by somebody in an earlier post strait stones leave a straiter cyl. and straiter is betterer.

Don't worry. You will soon be confident that your masterpiece will not blow-up even at 90mph.

Good idea useing the marker. Did they have markers way back in those days? JK! I remember a bit of shock the first time I saw a red marker when I was about six or seven years old after only seeing black ones.

There is risk with rebuilding as any other repair. There is risk buying and installing used engines, machine shop rebuilt, or brand new.

The brass thing could be a check valve, Does the ball push against a spring? If not it must fall under, "or something", some type of plug used after machining an oil galley passage.

Locating dowels could be difficult. The dealership might not stock them. The machine shop is the best bet.

Crvett69....you don't understand....I am asking many of these questions for the
sake of those who are reading these posts.

Others who are looking here for information and understanding may not be so
lucky to have workable "Locating Dowels"....

I consider this and other Threads a community workshop type of thing.

No question is a stupid question. Well.....you know!

I am having fun doing this and am trying to pass along whatever information I
can get from those who know what is going on.

I am "like"......asking the mechanic who is working on my car 14 gozillion questions.

Hopefully, the folks reading this will get all worked up and determined and go
out and fix their old Geo Metros and save gas, count the money they will
save and "be happy!". . . . and thumb their noses at the "Hybrids" getting less mpg's.

I am a teacher. I like to share knowledge. After all, that is what makes us
different from the Chimps and Apes, even though some of us look .......

Anyway - I got my "Locating Dowels" back into working order.

You might want to divulge to others where they could acquire them should the
need arise....

Thanks for the thought, though!

DoctorBill

PS - My old Boss back in R&D told me in my yearly evaluation interview that
I bitch and complain a lot, but then I go out and accomplish the task.
Bitching and complaining is fun! Try it! Lowers one's stress levels.....
If people don't like it - hard cheese!

Doc,

Many thanks for all the extra work you're putting into this project - Hell, documenting it like you have been must take as much time as the actual work. :worshippy Anyway, thanks also to everyone who's given advice and help along the way - I actually understand how all this comes together now!

Not trying to hijack the thread, but I have a question. I just found pieces of my #3 piston skirt sitting with bits of rings in the oil pan last night (the knock I needed help with in a different thread). :crying: In the previous thread on this project, you mentioned removing the pistons from under the engine. My question is, how? And my followup, Mr. President, is "how hard a project is it"? I have no engine hoist and don't really have the near-thousand dollars to have someone else install an engine, so while one option is to buy a hoist and do it myself, if I can just redo cylinder #3 on this engine, that'd be my favorite option. So how can I pull the dead piston from below? Or did that turn out to be a dead end for you?

Best of luck with the final touches on your soon-to-be-new-again engine!

PS You see now what your inspiration has caused? Massive layoffs at Suzuki repair shops!:evillol:

You can't take pistons out the bottom. You are looking at the same repair as DoctorBill which is not always the most economical or timely option.

If someone can tell this gentleman how to remove a piston from underneath
w/o having to remove the crankshaft, he should win the Nobel Prize!

Having been under my vehicle with the oil pan and Head off, I don't think a
fly could fart in that packed space where the piston rods go around!

I would think one of two choices are available.

Head comes off
or
Crankshaft come out!

In either case, why not start your own Thread on this topic....

As you can see, this one is becoming a maze.

My pick on this - OFF with its head! Then you will only need new gaskets....

DoctorBill

PS - If you highlight all of yours and press ctrl-C, that will copy all of it.
You can then start your own thread and press ctrl-V to paste it into it.
Then you could delete your post in here and I'll delete this one...

OK with you on that...? I just don't want this one becoming any more
complex than it is.... Good luck with the broken piston.
Schucks sells them - either forged or molded. About $50 each.

DOC;
I believe I know the feeling you describe when you say "Actually, if this works, I will feel like Superman and Albert Einstein all rolled up into one." I love bringing an engine back to life after working on it. That is why I always take it for a spin regardless of the hour; sort of a victory lap if you will. When I can I usually go and get a celebratory hot fudge sundae or whatever else I feel might be a suitable reward.
Personally I wouldn't worry about the engine "going sideways" You will have done all the right things and with way more care than was ever lavished on the engine when it was originally created. I can understand the concern about risking the money you have invested but if you think about it when you take it to a mechanic you are betting your money that he/she will get it right and if they are wrong then you typically end up investing more money. If you think back to watching other people work on projects it usually comes down to having the knowledge/tools, the proper sequence of actions and the patience to carry them out in order. Rarely does it take the intellect of a "rocket scientist" (I'm sure your experience as a teacher has shown you individuals where you wonder how they managed to get dressed in the morning yet they can do incredibly complex mental exercises with ease and vice-versa). We have the benefit of this forum to supplement our knowledge and help avoid many of the pitfalls we would otherwise have to learn from experience and it is obvious from all your pictures, posts and questions that you have plenty of patience for the job (even if others see it as bitching and complaining). Glad you are having fun with your project. Hope the weather clears up so you can get your engine all buttoned up and take that victory lap!

If someone can tell this gentleman how to remove a piston from underneath
w/o having to remove the crankshaft, he should win the Nobel Prize!

Having been under my vehicle with the oil pan and Head off, I don't think a
fly could fart in that packed space where the piston rods go around!

:rofl: Yeah, that was pretty much my reaction when I was under there, which was why I had no idea how it could be done. :dunno: Anyway, I plan on pulling the head and redoing the piston/cylinder this weekend. I'll post what I can under my other thread (about ID'ing the knock that opened this whole can of worms in the first place), but I doubt I'll be able to document as well as you did. BTW, any idea how to remove the pin on the piston? Feel free to reply in the other thread. And even I'm looking forward to your first test drive, so good luck!!!

Well, there is one way to get the piston out of the engine from the bottom... Let it shatter into a million pieces :grinyes: . There's a lip on the bottom of the cylinder, that the piston will not clear. Only way out is through the top! And to be honest, if your piston has come apart already, you probably have some signifigant cylinder wall damage. You're gonna have to bore the block and put bigger pistons in at the least, if the block isn't just flat out trashed. So if I were you, I'd just pull the engine and take it apart on a stand. You'll save a lot of time and hastle. Oh, and you have to remove the circlip on the side of the piston(where the wrist pin goes through), and it will slide right out. The clip should come out easily with a small flat head screwdriver.

Here's a pic of the bottom of a G13 engine(same thing with an extra cylinder). This is why you can't take the pistons out of the bottom.
http://img123.imageshack.us/img123/2038/bottomenginelj3.jpg

OK - it stopped raining and blowing.
It was 40° F out here last night and this morning!
Winter is coming - Frost any day now. Gotta get done!

So - I gapped the rings in the cylinders this morning.

I pushed the top ring into the cylinder by hand - went in quite easily.
Made a Gawd-Awful grinding sound as I pushed it down a ways and then with
a piston to square it up.

I had wiped the cylinder out and sprayed some oil. So I guess I did a good job
honing as the walls are rough.....

Here are some photos of the piston I used to push the top ring (white mark) down to
about the mid-point.
I used the upper bottom of the skirt as the reference point distance in all cases.
Look at the photos ....close up then back further.

http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/7564/ringgapping1lc8.jpg

http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/2531/ringgapping2jh1.jpg

Then I got out my old "Feeler Gauge" set, wiped off any dirt, and tried several
until I got a tight fit.

http://img61.imageshack.us/img61/9210/ringgapping3kx0.jpg

and here is a closer look....
http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/8972/ringgapping4rx2.jpg

Once I did all three cylinders with the top rings, I bagged them in separate
labelled plastic bags.
I then repeated this with the second ring (red mark) on all three cylinders,
and then with one of the flat Oil Rings on all three....

I placed each in their respective labelled plastic bags along with the rest of
the Oil Rings.

http://img160.imageshack.us/img160/5833/ringgapping5ha5.jpg

I tabulated the measurements:

http://img56.imageshack.us/img56/9689/newringgapsmetro1rk5.jpg

The Chilton Manual (page 3-2) gives the following:

Top Ring (Max Limit) = 0.0276 inch.

2nd Ring (Max Limit) = 0.0276 inch

Oil Ring (Max Limit) = 0.0708 inch

So, now - it looks to me like I am OK to go with these rings - YES ?

I don't think I need to exchange them for oversized Rings...NO ?

BTW - is this pretty good wear for a 155,000 mile engine...or what?

DoctorBill

Yes. You and your ring end gaps are excellent! Sure, that is minimal wear especially for a little engine that must work pretty hard at times. Brand new GEO engines would have just under .011 end gap. Air filtration must be good considering dirt and stuff from farming.

Contrary to what I have been told and have read the last ten years or so,
I change the oil and filter every 3-4,000 miles on all my cars.

You see a lot of stuff about how "Modern Oils" can go 6-8,000 miles or more
before you need to change them and how they can turn jet black and still be
lubricating because they are made to hold carbon particles, etc etc etc....

I always figured that spending $15 on an oil change every 3-4 thou is cheap
insurance to doing an engine overhaul for $1,500 or more....

Now - if I could only make sure my wife and son kept the oil level up to the
mark and didn't run the cars dry of oil (as happened several times!), I would be
just fine.....

Tomorrow I will break an old ring and scrap the Carbon out of the Ring grooves of
the Pistons.

Wash out the cylinders really well and put the Rod Bearings in maybe
Sunday, if the weather is good.

I hate the part where I get under the car on my back with crap
falling in my face and trying to do something while my arms can't move around
under there.....

I wish I had a lift so I could get at the engine more easily. Being 63 makes
things not work so well...the eyes are getting bad !

Don't get old........would be nice if I could just go out and change my rings & valves!

DoctorBill

Contrary to what I have been told and have read the last ten years or so,
I change the oil and filter every 3-4,000 miles on all my cars.

You see a lot of stuff about how "Modern Oils" can go 6-8,000 miles or more
before you need to change them and how they can turn jet black and still be
lubricating because they are made to hold carbon particles, etc etc etc....

I always figured that spending $15 on an oil change every 3-4 thou is cheap
insurance to doing an engine overhaul for $1,500 or more....

DoctorBill

Great series of posts! And no truer words have been said. I have changed oil/filter every 3000 miles on my 93 Metro. It now has 216,000 miles on it and still runs perfectly. Uses about third of a quart of oil in 3000 miles. I am sure if I had followed the manufacturers schedule it would not still be running.

Good luck to you!

Cleaned the Pistons & Installed the New Rings

Here is what the old Pistons looked like prior to being cleaned by yours truly...

http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/8421/piston2bbeforecleaningmq9.jpg

I followed the instructions given here and in the Chilton Manual about cleaning
the baked on Carbon deposits from the Pistons and Ring Slots....

I took an old top Compression Ring (the top ring is the thinnest besides the Oil Rings)
and broke it about in half.
It was not easy!
I had thought, from the what I had read, that Rings are brittle - Hell No !
Tough as nails!
Had to work the ring back and forth with pliers while it was in the vise to break it!
Fatigued it until it broke...
Bent instead of breaking!

Then I ground the edge at the break so that it was sharp edged and had a 90° angle.

Important - grind away any bent portion of the Ring - It must be Flat to enter the Ring Grooves!

This was like scraping paint. The broken Ring allows one to either gently or
forcefully scrap the Carbon off.

The Pistons had thick, baked on, hard as pocelean Carbon deposits on the top
of them. Very hard to scrape, but it broke loose and flew all over. I didn't
worry about scratching the Steel Piston tops. When I was done, I smoothed
out the scratches with fine Emery Cloth (200 grit?)

If you hold the broken Ring correctly, it is very good for scraping off carbon
discolored areas or reefing on the hard stuff. Nice tool it was....

I used the broken ring corner (at 90° angle) to get into each Ring Groove
and scrape out the Carbon that coated the bottom of each groove.

It was very hard and resisted being scraped out. I had to really reef on it!
It scraped out slowly but finally broke away. You have to scrape and scrape repeatedly
before it comes away. I used a small brass-wire brush to clean out the Ring Grooves
between scrapings - it does not scratch the Piston's surface....

This took me between 45 minutes to an hour for each Piston. My hands and fingers got quite tired....

I sat in my TV chair, put a towel over my chest to catch the Carbon, drank a beer
and watched some dorky vampire movie while I did this.
The Beer helped the most...
Be patient !

I suggest one or more beers per Piston. Too many may inhibit your hand coordination.....

The broken Ring gets into the Ring Groove edge and cleans nicely, but you
have to use a lot of force as it is stuck there quite hard.

I used a Diamond Knife honer/sharpener to keep the 90° edge on the Ring.

So here is what they looked like when I was done! Almost new looking!

http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/5240/cleanpistons1fq3.jpg

http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/9829/cleanpistons2nf8.jpg

http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/8366/cleanpistons3io0.jpg

When I was all done, I sprayed the pistons with oil from a spray can.

The Rings went in quite easily! I started with the Oil Ring at the bottom.

For my set of Rings (Beck/Arnley), you have to place the corrugated Oil ring
in first since it has a ridge on each side that the thin Oil Rings set on.
Then the bottom and top Oil Rings go in and set on the corrugated one.

The Second ring and the top Compression Rings just slid into place.

I "snaked' them in.... Start one side and wind them around into the slots.

I made sure the Second and Top rings had the mark on the top side as per
instructions that came with the set.

Here is what they now look like. They are being stored in a plastic bag having been
sprayed with oil again.

http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/1236/newringsinpistons1kf5.jpg

http://img183.imageshack.us/img183/9514/newringsinpistons2hu0.jpg

http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/9025/newringsinpistons3ng3.jpg

Now, I am ready to wash the cylinders out really well (will use hot water and dish
detergent), dry them and spray oil all over them and get the Pistons back in.

DoctorBill

Me again! :)

Since I'll likely be doing this exact same thing Monday, a couple quick questions. First, what kind of oil are you using to lube the parts before you put them back? WD40, motor oil, assembly lube? Second, should I take the Ring Installer tool back to Kragen (SoCal's version of Schucks)? It sounds like it's pretty much unnecessary - all it seems to do is pull the rings open for you to slip them onto the piston, but it sounded from your description that that's not really too hard to do.

And thanks again - you're better than the verdammt Chilton's manual - not only have I learned more, I have better pics to work with. :)

One thing I would do over again, if I were given the chance, would be
to buy two cans of JUNK ENGINE DEGREASER, warm up the engine, turn it off,
hose it down with the JUNK (top and underside), wait a half hour and then
hose it down with hot soapy water using my 3 gallon garden sprayer filled
with hot tap water and detergent with the tip unscrewed to a hard steady
stream. I'd pump it up to high pressure. This works quite well and allows one
to direct a hard stream at really dirty parts. I'd make sure the underside of
the engine was cleaned off ! I'd do it twice or thrice even!....until it were clean!

"what kind of oil are you using to lube the parts before you put them back?
WD40, motor oil, assembly lube?"

I haven't reassembled anything yet - except for the New Piston rings.
I sprayed them with "3-in-1" Professional Lube Oil (Spray can) just to stop rust.
You can buy Spray On Motorcyle "Chain Oil" also - thick & sticky.

I intend to place maybe a tablespoonful (shotglass) of regular Motor Oil in the
cylinders after I put the Pistons back in. Then I plan to rotate the
crankshaft by hand to redistribute the Motor Oil thru -out the cylinders.

I bought "Assembly Grease" at Schucks for the Rod Bearings.

"...should I take the Ring Installer tool back to Kragen..."

As to the ring Installer, for $5 you might keep it, but after dealing with my rings,
I see that you can just start one end out with a thin Knife (?) tip and then
just "Snake" them out.
It is of course, obvious that you start removing the Rings with the top ring down and
install from the bottom Oil Rings up..... If not, it might get 'complicated"....

NOW - I just want to say that my used and new rings were quite flexible and tough.
If other types of Rings are brittle, I have nothing to contribute.
You might try to do the above....if the Rings appear brittle, then use the
ring Installer/Remover.

This is a tiny motorcycle engine - I wonder if a big V8 engine has similar types
of rings, etc....(?)
A BIG & LONG Piston might have a lot of rings and be difficult to remove the
rings from via "Snaking".....Can someone enlighten us on this?

Thanks for the encouragement.... This has been fun. Had I absolutely required
my vehicle ASAP, it would have been Hell !

DoctorBill

PS - from my point of view (from almost total ignorance) the important things for me
were
1. Go slowly and think... - which I sometimes forgot to do !
2. Try to be surgically clean to keep "grit" out of the works...
3. Worry and fret as much as possible.....

My opinion is that following vehicle and ring manufacture recommendations offers advantages over so many individuals opinions that come from who knows where and lack sound reasoning to support their particular proccess.

Manufactures have more experience, resources, and knowledge about why repairs should be done the way they recommend than any individual. Why do less experienced individuals experiment or think they know a better way based on nothing more than what seems to them to be common sense based on their limited knowledge, what they think they know, or what somebody else says or does?

Rolling piston rings on with your fingers is better than useing a ring expander because it is good to expand the rings the least ammount possibe and distribute the expansion as evenly as possible accross the entire circle of the ring. Ring expanders open rings up wider than nessasary and put more stress on the middle of the ring opposite of the gap than the remainder of the ring. The ring will never flex back to the same un-sprung size or roundness. This is true of all piston rings regardless of bore size or type of fuel burned. As one major ring manufacture "Perfect Circle" brand name suggests, perfectly round rings in a perfectly round cylinder is the optimum result we are seeking.

Ring and auto manufactures recommend useing motor oil on piston rings during assembly. Motor oil is designed and constantly improved for use in engines. Chain lube is for chains, cables and open gears, and constantly being improved to stay where you put it... which should be on chains.

The purpose of the oil ring is to scrape oil from the cylinder walls. An engine will never have more lubrication on its rings and cylinder walls during its entire life than it does at assembly and the first start up. Piston rings need to slide freely in the ring grooves of the piston. You can't avoid microscopic dirt and there will also be metal from cylinder walls and rings as the rings seat during the first few minutes of opperation that form a grinding compound. Washing this grinding compound away from cylinders and rings as soon as possible is desirable.

Chain lube is designed to stick around as long as possible. What happens to chain lube when it is heated? Do you think chain lube might stick around the rings, burn into carbon and possibly hinder the piston rings ability to slide and conform to the cylinder as they were designed? All that carbon you scraped from the pistons is what is left over from oil that passed by the oil control ring and burned from the heat of combustion.

Pouring motor oil on the top of pistons won't help anything and will again just be excessive oil some of which will burn leaving carbon everywhere that you don't want carbon like rings and sparkplugs, with the majority being blown out the exhaust. Extra oil around the rings is a big part of what goes wrong with a worn engine with worn piston rings. Why start a rebuilt engine with new piston rings out the same way?

Wrist pins, piston skirts, rings with staggered ring end gap and piston ring grooves should be lubed with clean motor oil without any additive. Use only motor oil on cylinder walls. Assembly lube hinders ring seat time and will actually increase wear. Overtightening the piston ring compressor will make installation much more difficult. The pistons should slide into the cylinders easilly with little more than finger pressure.

My opinion is that lubriplate type assembly lube is good for crankshaft bearings. Manufactures of engines and bearings recomend motor oil on rod and main bearings for assembly. If you stick your finger in the assembly lube to spread it, you will see dirt from your finger that will be pressed with the lube against the bearing. Most of the dirt will wash out without embedding into the bearing.

Believe it or not a brand new 4.9L engine from Ford had to be changed shortly after being installed because it started knocking. Dissasembly showed a spun rod bearing from lack of lubrication. The oil hole in the main journal of the crankshaft had a broken tool in the oil hole and then the crank and tool were ground and polished smooth. The oil hole was totally blocked because the tool broke before connecting with the cross-drilled passage that supplies oil to the rod journal and rod bearing. I found the blocked oil hole interesting, but the fact that the engine ran in the shop after install and then ran stop and go in a delivery van for nearly 200mi before running a little more in the shop prior to removal seems truely amazing. Any one miss-understanding that rod bearings are lubed from splashing into oil in the crankcase of modern automotive engines is ill-informed. My point is that all the concern about a veriety of recomended assembly lube formulas may not warrant the concern that most people imagine.

I found your post fascinating, but am having a Hell of a time reading it as you made
it wider than my screen displays posts!

Got the message - just use motor oil on the assembled Piston Rings....Clear!
Use only motor oil on the Rod Bearings, too. No grease.

I also had learned, as I aged, that oil "splashes" over the rod ends and wrist pins
as the crankshaft rotates - that is why it is important to keep the oil level at the top
of the dip stick...

But what are the holes on the Rod Bearings and Crankhaft for then? No oil is pumped
thru those holes?

DoctorBill

Most compression and back-up rings have a top and bottom. Do the piston rings in this engine have marks that indicate top?

the crank has a hole drilled from main bearing to rod bearing surface. pressure from the main bearing pushes oil through that hole and lubes the rod bearings. when i redo a engine i pour a bit of oil on the rings and smear it over side of piston and spin them around a bit then put the ring gaps where they belong

I was about to install the Pistons, when I realized that I don't know the rotation
position for the Rings...

If the top ring is at zero degrees, where would I place the second ring (degrees)
and then the Oil Rings in relation to the top ring?

This is what the great Chilton manual says to do.... page 3-36
"5. Make sure the ring gaps are properly spaced around the circumference
of the piston."

Lord ! Big f'ing help they are!


DoctorBill

Many early engines did rely on splashing the rod into the crankcase oil and some small lawn mower engines continued for many years after. The holes in your crankshaft go over to a main bearing. The motor oil is pumped into the block filling an oil galley that runs the length of the block feeding down into the main bearings that oil the rod bearings.

Splashing parts into oil reduces horsepower and fuel economy. Engines are designed to reduce the splashing and oil mist called windage that becomes an increasingly important factor as the parts move faster. Air inside the crankcase even with oil mist in it, is thicker air and causes resistance to every moving part.

Look at how long your oil pump pickup is and the way your oil pan is built. How can your rods even come close to splashing into oil?

Your still your own boss. Most rebuilders use assembly grease or thicker assembly lubricant on crankshaft bearings. I still use assembly grease probably for no other reason than political correctness. It is what the overwhelming majority thinks is necessary.

The most important factor regarding ring stager is that the gaps on each ring are not aligned with each other. I stagger the scraper rings away from the gap of their expander and separate the gaps of one scraper from the other. Then I stagger the compression rings with the gaps opposite of each other some where above the piston skirt. Do your rings have marks showing which side is top?

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.hastingsmfg.com/Service%2520Tips/images/p65b.gif&imgrefurl=http://www.hastingsmfg.com/Service%2520Tips/oil_ring_installation_problems.htm&h=188&w=201&sz=4&hl=en&start=14&tbnid=cAZJjpzIgQYnRM:&tbnh=97&tbnw=104&prev=/images%3Fq%3DPiston%2Bring%2B%2Binstall%26svnum%3D 10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26sa%3DG

Here's some good info on ring installation for ya Bill
http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/5779/ringinstallpw1.th.jpg (http://img227.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ringinstallpw1.jpg)

I like the diagram that geozukiqti posted. That is what I tried to describe. The top ring gap goes toward the intake side because it is cooler in that area than the exhaust side. Seems to me like ring end gap of the top ring should not be directly aligned under the lowest point of the valve relief like your pistons have because of temp.

Yes, my old rings had no mark on them but they were beveled on the top side.

The new rings have a punch mark that is to go up. The Compression ring had
red paint on one spot and the second ring (called what?) had a white paint
spot on it and the same punch mark. The Oil Rings were symmetrical with no
punch marks or anything.

Here are the destructions for the new rings:

Reduced 50% and the Spanish taken out.....
http://img224.imageshack.us/img224/5568/ringinstructions1ku3.jpg

Here is what Crvett69 sent to me - he had trouble getting it on this Forum....
http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/6514/gaprotationdy7.jpg

Holy Mackeral - these manuals far outclass what I have in the Chilton Manual.
The Chilton says nothing about this - or am I missing it?

So - now tomorrow, after I get back from my first class day (2 labs), I will
rotate the Piston Rings as per the diagram below. (I scanned the top of my
#3 Piston - HP psc 1315 xi all-in-one printer - with a paper cutout around it).
And maybe install the Pistons into the cylinders......

http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/3618/mynumber3pistontopej3.jpg

DoctorBill

PS - Sorry, JustSayGo, the compression ring (first ring) gap is right under the exhaust
valve opening....I looked at the head and its relation to the pistons. The smaller valve
is the Exhaust Valve as told to me by the Head Shop Mechanic.

The top rings are both compression rings. The purpose of the second ring is to back up to the top ring sealing compression that leaks past the top ring.

Been thinking about all that goop sealing the Oil Pan and the goop around the
Intake Manifold and so forth....

Ain't it obvious that someone worked on my baby before I bought it?

Wonder why they opened it up?

Was the Head reworked prior to me doing that?

Why would they have removed the Oil Pan?

The Cylinders seem barely used since the New Ring Gaps were on the order
of 0.014 inches....

You'd think they would be more worn after 155,000 miles.

It would seem that at least the Intake Manifold was removed - the factory
wouldn't have put goop on the IM Gasket, would they?

And the Oil Pan goop - did they have a leak and were just trying to fix it, or
were they at the Rod Bearings or Main Bearings?

Hummmmm........

How could I tell ?

Is there some way to tell if the current engine in my baby is a replacement engine?

DoctorBill

if it was red goop only on the oil pan thats the way the factory seals them

I have been thinking of asking you if you thought your engine had been rebuilt previosly. Looking at your pictures I agree, some one has done work before. The factory doesn't use globs of sealer like yours has. Looks like who ever put the oil pan on has hardly a clue about the proper use of RTV. I guess it didn't leak. Maybe the engine was replaced at some point and they transfered the intake, exhaust, and oil pan. Could be several different reasons for removing the oil pan. Could have been a new long block without an oil pan. Maybe that same engine uses different oil pan shapes for different model vehicles. The same would be true if it were a JDM engine. Maybe the first engine had a bearing problem so the guy thought it would be a good isea to inspect the used bearings before putting your engine in. I don't think the pistons or cylinder head have ever been removed. Maybe they swapped valve covers too, since it was leaking so bad. Still must have a lot of miles. Following that diagram exactly as you have it labeled is fine. The idea is to spread the ring gaps away from all other gaps. Your pistons are designed a little different than the one in the picture. The piston pictured is from an engine that has the valves angled toward each other where your Geo valves are in line. Top and second gaps could be reversed and or the gaps could be located beneath part of the piston crown that isn't cut so low.

Just two things:

First, regarding the posts themselves - if you're using the quick reply instead of advanced, I've noticed that it handles the post a little differently - my two quick replies both were very wide, while the advanced ones I've made were "normal" sized.

Second, :1zhelp:! How the !#%&@%& do you get a stuck cylinder head bolt loose? I followed the loosening pattern and was doing fine, except for one bolt which just won't move. I'm a 235 lb ex-rugby player, and I can't get the thing to budge. Any preferences on penetrating lubricants or tricks I could use to get the cussed bolt freed up? I'm on the verge of buying an impact drill attachment right now....:banghead:

Otherwise, I have to say it's been going relatively smoothly, and thanks again to both DOCTORBILL and his pics, and frets14 and his short and to the point instruction set (that beats what's in Chilton's by far) on removing the head, posted in the first of DOC's rebuild threads.:worshippy I won't have time to document things as I go, but I'll try and post pics and stuff once I'm done.

I used a three foot long pipe as a 'cheater bar' on my head bolts....and a 3/4 inch
ratchet for strength....

Notice the pipe on the ground - middle right side....

http://img325.imageshack.us/img325/4086/workarea1qx4.jpg

That is why I had said it scared the Hell out of me when they screamed as I
loosened them - I expected one to break!

None did - but I still consider myself lucky.....

If you ever plan to do much automotive or any engine work (lawn tractor, mowers
etc.), I would go out and buy an electrical or air IMPACT HAMMER!

Those damned things could loosen the Devil from Hell...!

Don't piddle around and buy a weak one - buy a good, powerful one!

Try the cheater bar first, though. And GOOD LUCK to you !

DoctorBill