car comparisons: family sized hatchbacks in the UK.

quite simple really.
it's time that I got myself a bigger car and i'm looking at something around the £5000 mark.

At the moment, there are two main grouos of cars that I am looking at.
The first is something that is bigger but not necessarily more practical than the Yaris that I currently drive:
Fiat coupe
http://x53.xanga.com/3bba86f1d073473717782/m49695928.jpg
vs
Ford Puma.
http://x7d.xanga.com/b88a93637413573717811/s49695947.jpg

As it stands, the Ford Puma is the slightly more expensive car to buy but cheaper to insure. The Fiat (which would be the 20v turbo) is cheaper to but but more expensive to insure. The initial outlay for both works out to be about the same.
The handling of the Puma is virtually legendary for a car of it's size, power and provenance (i.e it is essentially a worked up fiesta) but then again, the Fiat isn't exactly a plow in the handling stakes and a sub 7 sec 0-60 isn't something to sniff at)

The more sensible group of cars would have to be the family sized hatches of the thread title.
The ones that I've been looking at are:
Alfa Romeo 147 2.0 Lusso
http://x05.xanga.com/6c5d02f060c3673717797/m49695936.jpg

Ford Focus ST170
http://xce.xanga.com/39ca9af05173573717813/m49695949.jpg

VW Golf V5
(can't find a decent picture.. besides, it just looks like any golf...)

all are at around £6000 (give or take 500) and like before, if you take into account the insurance on the cars, the initial outlay works out to be the same. Which leaves the bigger factor being the costs of day to day running. In my mind, the Focus and Golf are more or less equals in terms of running costs with expensive VW parts offset by less need for them and the fact that any high costs is offset by the Golf being a much better feeling car (no clickity plastic here...) than the Focus.

Here's where i admit to having a strange desire to own an Alfa.
The insurance on the GTA would eat into too much of my mortgage money so the 2.0 is the one I can aim for right now but it really is a bit of a mystery to me. I don't know anyone who actually owns an Alfa and while I hear of bad things about their reliability, I find it hard to actuall believe that it is as bad as people make it out to be, especially in a car that is still so new. Y'know, things that happened in the 80s aren't still going to happen in a 2000 car, right?

so, any insights from any owners on any of these cars?

Go for the Focus ST170. The Alfa is nice, much better built than any Alfa that went before it, quick, handles well etc, BUT the Focus is the same, with the added bonus that it handles even better than the Alfa and comes with a very slick 6 Speed Getrag gearbox. Electrics/Accessories will be much more reliable as well.

The Golf shouldn't even factor unless you want quality and reliability. Admittedly the V5 is a nice power plant, but the handling is stodgy and front-heavy.



All in all you are best off with the Puma though...

the really bizzare thing is that i am getting lower quotes for insurance for the alfa than i do for a 230bhp RX8.....

I am interested in why these models are the most apealling to you.

what about the honda fit or toyota yaris? Or is it Jazz in the uk?

I am not particularly fond of any of these models as they are all belo average on reliability. How long are you going to own the vehicle, are you going to lease or resell it while it is young?
If that is the case I think I would choose the volkswagon.

I think whats hard for me to guess is what kind of investment this is. Most of the factors, or the major ones, need more sort of accounting thought than gearhead thought.

If you want to sell the car young... or youre not even sure what youre going to do with it, I think you want a very popular model as opposed to a rare one. Also, one that is slightly more expensive than standard price entry vehicle is also the one people look for on the used market young. Some examples of what Im talking about is honda accord, toyota camry, bmw 3, volswagon jetta.
Nobody wants your 3 year old ford puma or fiat or even really your volkswagon is what Im trying to say. That future cost is something to consider as well...

I want to think back to many years ago when I was a volkswagon owner.

Your comment on expensive parts but less cost etc. made me think back.


Here in the us VWs are popular but I have to believe they are more expensive here. I think they sell the us more expensive models than they would in europe.

Anyhow, VW people like to repair their own cars. They are often designed in a do it yourself manner with many maintenance related filters and easier access bolts.
But the parts are very expensive. The vw related businesses are like some little mafia.
A vw person is often intimately acquainted with all the many parts of his car and is really up on it. Bushings orignal design flaws model numbers, parts compatibility..... am I describing this well enough?

I was a volkswagon person once but Im not into being one again lol. To make a long story short. But they do have some very redeeming qualities as well. They often have good gas mileage and interior. You see, volkswagon does want you to hold on to it. Theyll get a good peice of you in time... if you follow my thought.

The Focus and Golf are perfectly reliable cars, while the Puma topped reliablity surveys from the word go.


The Alfa Romeo is reliable, just plagued with minor glitches and the Fiat is dreadfully unreliable (Though they go like an absolute cut cat).


Things are much different in Europe, the Jetta is invisible, the Golf is a best seller, mid-size hatches hold thier value better than anything, Mid-size sedans depriciate at a about 60% over 3 years on average.

I am not really sure what consumer data you use for vehilcle reliability in the uk.

I use the main consumer data here in the us for us models when i comment on vehicle reliability. A recent consumer reports maybe jd power, or something like that.

I dont know what a survey on reliability would be. This is an interesting cultural topic. Some countries have open consumer data and some do not. Japan would be an extremely consumer data consious society...
Consumer reports follows like the problems of the vehicle and previous models etc.

There is no ford puma but the previous generation was made by kia and very unreliable although i still see a lot on the road. But I dont have recent data on it as it isnt sold in the us anymore.

So going by consumer reports all of those vehicles are rated as way below average. Even a hyundai would be an improvement.

In all honesty consumer surveys are rubbish, I've worked in the industry long enough to fathom it.

There are far too many variables to take into account e.g. seriousness of problems (It doesn't matter if the engine siezes or the ashtray breaks it's a problem), peoples expectations of the brand (The way that many GM brands found thier way to the top, people had low expectations of Buick/Cadillac etc) and how the customer service experience changes the perception of the car (For example, electrical glitches are common in Lexus GS models, but the customer care service will go out of thier way to put everything right)


The Ford Puma and anything made by Kia are very different. The car you have it confused with is the Festiva and Aspire, the Fiesta is a whole different German-designed Europe only beast..

Quite simply it's more than enough to expect a car to run reliably these days, the lemon rate for a Toyota Corolla is 10%, the lemon rate for a Peugeot 307 is approximately 25%, you can get a lemon anywhere, regardless of where you look, you have a 75% chance of getting a good car. There's no point in driving around in a Japanese blandbox that you hate, just because some inaccurate survey said there is a 5 percentage point chance the car is less likely to break down.

did he just say there is no ford puma despite me posting a picture of it?

No ford puma here in the US. Yep. None for me to look up consumer reports data. Read carefully or ignore me I guess man. You are in the UK and I am in the US. There are different vehicles available in each country.

If your concept of reliability jimster is based on vehicles youve seen, and people you talk to and the vehicles youve owned.... your concept is like a lot of peoples. If you are indeed a professional mechanic you read publications that show model years and problems that could give you an idea, but based on the vehicles you see on the job you would really have no data to go on.

Car reliability is not an opinion. It is a machine, produced by a factory. Millions of cars produced, logs of all problems recorded. If your opinion is based on 10, 20, 1000, 100,000 vehicles it amounts to almost nothing, unless you are basing reliability data on the millions of cars sold in a year you couldnt have enough information to even predict a trend.
I wish I had a link to consumer reports to show you but they charge for online. Very unlikely their publications are available for you to browse at the bookstore like here.

now consumer data can easily be slanted but thats not what Im talking about. What does a lemon percentage have to do with vehicle reliability? Something but actually not that much. Initial quality matters very little to vehicle reliability. But these things are listed seperately sometimes to confuse an ignorant consumer

If you buy and get rid of your cars young its quite possible you wouldnt get burned by an unreliable vehicle. It is quite possible something like the lemon percentage and initial quality listing applies to you more because you will try to avoid problems by dumping the vehicle. In terms of somantics the problems in a new car could be called reliability. Meaning a problem right off the bat.
What weight it has is different for each person I can understand that. But, for you to tell me the golf and the ford focus are reliable vehicles based on what I reference is not a difference of opinion.

something has just occured to me, none of the cars i've listed are available in the US.

something has just occured to me, none of the cars i've listed are available in the US.

fiat and alfa romeo havent been sold in the us since the early 80s.

All of the other three are sold in the us under a different model but probably not exactly the same. Ford is an american company they definitely sell the ford focus, vw golf but maybe not that exact model.

You have to keep in mind aside from europe that the uk gets different cars from mainland europe as well. It gets the japan/australia/uk only market cars that are right hand drive.

As much as I love the Fiat Coupe, i wouldnt recommend one. My mate had one and repair costs were very high. Everything was an "engine-out" job, it seemed. Even changing the tyres :lol:

I wouldn't be seen dead in a Ford. So that leaves the V5 and the 147... for handling reasons, 147...

i don't know what's happening to me but i keep getting urges to go get an old alfa.....

What hope is there of finding a decent condition, good running and reliable Alfa 145 1.6/1.7(boxer)? and even if i do find one, how much is it likely to cost me running it? I see them around for way under £1000 but something about a sub £1000 car, especially an Alfa that strikes a certain fear into my heart.

lol, most of them will be knackered by now, the boxer 1.7 was a nice engine, but a pain in the ass to work on (Which is bad, since it needs constant work).

You are definitely better off in a 147 than a 145, should you be able to afford it, at least the 2.0 Twinspark is reliable if looked after.

I have a question for you uk drivers

Do you see a lot of left hand drive vehicles on the road?

I mean here in america a right hand drive vehicle is a once a year thing. Theres no place near that sells them I mean people buy them direct from the far east sometimes.

But you are so close to mainland europe Im thinking people do that a lot more often. Just go buy a porsche in france and drive back.

Am I right?

Because the selection of vehicles in mainland europe is way more appealing.

Im sorry if I put down your choices of vehicles drunkmonkey but they are not appealing to my american sensibilities. I would be greatly interested in like the bmw 1 or many cars that are euro market that are excellent.

Even the smart or renault commercial vans or etc, I mean there are some cool things in europe we dont see here.

But you are so close to mainland europe Im thinking people do that a lot more often. Just go buy a porsche in france and drive back.

Am I right?
No.

There are numerous problems with buying a LHD car: insurance is more expensive, resale is more difficult, theft is more likely, overtaking can be a bitch; these are but to name but a few. I mean, give us a little credit. If it didn't have any downsides, you'd think we'd be on it already... Besides:

Because the selection of vehicles in mainland europe is way more appealing.
is an absolute load of rubbish...

So, Mr know-it-all, why don't you tell me what is available from continental europe that isn't in the UK. Apart from Lancia's, that is, which I doubt would appeal to your "american sensibilities" anyway :rolleyes:

But Jay, we get Chrysler Sebrings, Chevrolet Tahoes and Cadillac SUV's in Europe y'all!


Honsestly, the UK has a much better selection that us. Thier being RHD means they get Skyline GTRs, S15 Silvias, Integra Type R's, JDM 3000GT's, Evo's and STi's etc. Oh and the Vauxhall Monaro...

i find it amusing that he "put down" cars that are not available in the US market and hence, cars that he knows nothing about.

Well I will have to reference something for you on vehicle models available in europe and the uk for you.

You are saying to the best of your knowledge that as many or almost as many models are available in the uk as in mainland europe.

I can say to the best of my knowledge many more models are available in mainland europe. And it only makes sense as well.

But I will call it unknown until I look it up.

You will have to use a certain amount of logic here. What percentage of the cars sold are lhd? What about RHD? So, if there are more models of cars made for one than the other, which one do you think it is? I mean forget the world, how many of the european cars sold each year are rhd? 10%?
Now, japan is a RHD country so, versions unique to jdm have a better chance of making it to the uk. That is true

Im not trying to put down a car that is not available in the US. Im not trying to put down a car, what does the car care lol. I value a vehicles reliability index but then, I buy used cars. Everyone has different values.

Im trying to communicate clearly I dont want to argue with anyone. Actually only interested in helping anyone who wants help.

You are saying to the best of your knowledge that as many or almost as many models are available in the uk as in mainland europe.



As has already been mentioned the UK is RHD, which opens them to the Japanese market as well, as the RHD share of the European market, and thier own domestic market.
Access to the Japanese used market means they have access to cars you will have never heard of, and unless you are able to search Japanese used auction sites, or have a Japanese language option on your PC (and you can read it) then you will NEVER hear about them.

The UK have pretty much the single biggest collection of new and used cars to choose from in the world.
If it was made in RHD anywhere in the world in the last 10 years you can own it in the UK (same here for that matter).

Iv given you a vote for the Alfa.
I hate VW's, Iv never driven an exciting or enjoyable one.
And while the Focus is good, the Mazda 3/familia made better use of the same Chassis

You really think that Moppie? (On the Ford/Mazda thing), there's not really a sporting equivalent of the ST170 for the 3 (Except the MPS one that is coming out and is expensive) and as a result I have found the standard 3 2.0 Sport a little roly-poly compared to the ST170.

To be honest, Iv never driven the ST170, but my understanding is its a little two hard.
There was a hot focus sold here, around the sametime, which Im pretty sure used the ST170 spec suspension, with a different engine (it might have been the ST170?) and it was a flop. They simply didn't sell because they were to hard, and bounced more than drove down the road. The Jap Spec Mazda SP20 from the same generation chassis has however started to prove a very popular import here, its not as fast, but a hell of a lot more useable.

You will have to use a certain amount of logic here.
Way to be patronising. And your logic is completely flawed.

Honsestly, the UK has a much better selection that us
He lives in continental europe, and works in the auto industry. But hey, what do we know :rolleyes:

To be honest, Iv never driven the ST170, but my understanding is its a little two hard.
There was a hot focus sold here, around the sametime, which Im pretty sure used the ST170 spec suspension, with a different engine (it might have been the ST170?) and it was a flop. They simply didn't sell because they were to hard, and bounced more than drove down the road. The Jap Spec Mazda SP20 from the same generation chassis has however started to prove a very popular import here, its not as fast, but a hell of a lot more useable.


Yeah, they've put a new one out, basically it's a very sporty Volvo S40 T5 AWD with a Focus body plonked on top. It's a very nice car, not quite as hard as the last one, but certainly fast and it needs to be with the looming threat of the Mazda3 MPS.

Not as nice as the Golf R32, but not nearly as expensive either.

Way to be patronising. And your logic is completely flawed.


He lives in continental europe, and works in the auto industry. But hey, what do we know :rolleyes:
Like I said I will look it up. I could be wrong. I definitely dont think I am.

The whole reason I asked was just to have a better picture for myself how available the lhd vehicles are to the uk driver.
Now I am not referring to just us made vehicles, because I dont like any of them usually, but german scandinavian vehicles as well. There are models of those that are never made in rhd. And yes even japanese vehicles.

I do suppose I am thinking of new vehicles not used jdm vehicles. Because those are actually sold here in the us as well. Probably much more popular in the UK Im certain though.
Mostly because the orignal poster is asking about new vehicles.

I would say, its common knowledge that many more vehicle models are available to the european market than the uk one. I would say that but I still havent looked it up so we will have to see.

I think this fiat is now sold in the us under the name suzuki Reno. If its not this one its one of similar size. Well, the suzuki reno is made by fiat and it might be this one is what Im saying.

communication has not been poor; it has only been your comprehension of what has been said that has been poor. A simple (albeit rhetorical) question had been asked by crazyayajay that you have thus far avoded.

why don't you tell me what is available from continental europe that isn't in the UK. Apart from Lancia's, that is, which I doubt would appeal to your "american sensibilities" anyway

incidentally, logic has not a lot to do with what cars are available in the UK; market forces do not run on the logic that is based on looking at absolute numbers. You can't look at things like the size of the UK compared to the rest of Europe (and hence number of potential customers of both) and use this as a base for the logic behind the availability of some/certain cars to the UK.


I think this fiat is now sold in the us under the name suzuki Reno. If its not this one its one of similar size. Well, the suzuki reno is made by fiat and it might be this one is what Im saying.

no it is not the same car.
what has a similarity in size got to do with anything?
isn't the suzuki reno a rebadged chevy/woo?

I would say, its common knowledge that many more vehicle models are available to the european market than the uk one. I would say that but I still havent looked it up so we will have to see.

you would think that those of us who live in UK and Europe who have been responding here know what cars are available to us (or not).
so far, you have been repeating that you do not actually know if what you stipulate is true or not. How about you go and find out before repeating this thing that is supposed to be "common knowledge" (but not something that you know is true or not) is true?

Just had another thought, if you want a really cheap family sized hatch, how about the Civic VTi (1996 or 7-2000), it's a 1.8 VTEC, which may or may not make it a B18c, I really don't know, old Civic's aren't exactly the easiest car to come by here.

Should be able to have one for about 2-3k and should be a reliable little weapon, if you are able to stomach Hondas lifeless power steering (Honestly they make cars that handle brilliantly then put the worlds most limp wristed power steering in them)

Also look at a Phase III Peugeot 306 GTi-6, the phase 3 has most of the bugs of the previous model ironed out, while being one of the best hot hatches ever made.

the suzuki reno is made by fiat.

many of the suzukis for sale in NA as new are made by daewoo though.

Im not sure if it has a fiat version. I have no reason to think its that one. Just a remote possibility is why I mentioned it. Its possible that fiat is sold in america because there is a fiat car coming to the na market.

As far as car models ok, well theres no comprehensive list of all car models for sale that I know of a click away on the internet.

What I did was look at BMW and mercedes. I found more models in lhd for the european market than are for sale in the uk based on the manufactures sites. There are more bmws for sale in the uk than the us though. Is this the information you are looking for?

Its actually the only information I was looking for I was wondering how popular it is to go to mainland europe to pick up a bmw model that is not sold in the uk. Im just wondering for future reference.

I assume that its the same case for the french and italian makes. Some models are not made for rhd. There surely are no rhd only models from any of these manufacturers.

If I am incorrect Id love to hear why or see evidence. Particularly interested in jimsters opinion, am I correct in that you are of uk descent living in europe mainland

obviously mostly interested in the facts, or only jimsters opinions.

I am from New Zealand (Similar to the UK, they basically get all the same brands as them), but living in Italy.

The Reno is not made by Fiat, it is the same car as our Chevrolet (Aka Daewoo) Lacetti 5 Door.

The only LHD only Euro models I can think of are:

-Lancia
-The previous Renault Twingo
-AWD Mercedes Benz models
-The Alfa Romeo 166 (From 2006)
-The Renault vel Satis (From 2005)
-Lada (The UK can be thankful not to get these, they're still crap)


That's all that comes from the top of my head, short of the AWD Mercedes cars, they're not missing much.

Just had another thought, if you want a really cheap family sized hatch, how about the Civic VTi (1996 or 7-2000), it's a 1.8 VTEC, which may or may not make it a B18c, I really don't know, old Civic's aren't exactly the easiest car to come by here.



I think Stamar has hacked your account.
The EK VTi Civic had a 1.6 or 1.5L SOHC VTEC engine, 1.6 for the world market and 1.5 for the Jap market.
After that they went to a 1.5 and 1.7L engine common across all markets.

I swear the Swindon model VTi came out with a 1.8 VTEC, it was the equivalent model to the VTi-R/SiR for Europe. I wish I still had my old Pommy mags :(

EDIT: Here's a link http://www.dooyoo.co.uk/cars/honda-civic-1-8-vti-5-dr/


I have no clue if that's a B18c or what, I can't think of any other 1.8 VTEC by Honda...

There is someone here on the forum who has on of those, your right, it does have a B18c in it.
I didn't realise they badged it as a VTi though, I thought it got the VTi-R badge.

I can't imagine they are very common, but if the suspension has ben sussed as well, they should be lots of fun to drive.

as a Chinese guy living in london, I am bound by my sense of non-conformity that i can not drive a honda civic. I only bought a Toyota Yaris originally because it was brand new on the market and Knowing the time it took for them to get from Japan to the UK at the time, I was comfortably smug knowing that I could drive around for months before I saw another one
(let's not mention their ubiquitous presence on the roads these days...)

I have to say though, I was also looking at maybe chucking my small change at getting an old 1.6 CRX until I checked a few insurance quotes.
WTF?
Average quote is approximately 120% of the car's value (although that might reflect my driving history...)

I've looked at the 306 GTI-6 already and the few that I've test driven lately (past year or so) have been less than appealing, especially after having played around in an Alfa. It's just too hard to find one in decent nick around my parts.
Other cars in the price range that I am looking at that I've considered are:
Alfa GTV6 (the old 1985 model....) and the newer GTV
Honda Integra Type-R
Lancia Integrale
Pugs 205 GTI, 306 GTI-6 and Rallaye
VW Corrado

but these were ruled by one thing or another but it should give you an idea of what I am looking at/for.


anyway.
to the other discussion.
yes, i'm pretty sure that there are certain obscure spec/variations of cars by bmw and mercedes that don't get sold in the UK but what has that got to do with this? Does that count as them having more models to choose from? The last time I checked, any model range from BMW and MB sold in Europe, you can buy in the UK. Who cares if there is a certain bmw 3 (or whatever) that only comes in LHD when the core 3 Series is available?
Even the LHD only Z8 was sold here although that is a special case but it does reflect on what happens with certain cars. The Lancia Integrale, when it was sold here, was LHD. The Fiat Barchetta that is still sold here, is LHD.
Bizzarely, I also have it in my head that the Ford RS200 is also LHD only for homologation purposes.

On the other hand, just because a car is RHD doesn't mean it is available in the UK. I can't be bothered to look right now but how many cars that are sold in Japan aren't sold in the UK?

I am from New Zealand (Similar to the UK, they basically get all the same brands as them), but living in Italy.

The Reno is not made by Fiat, it is the same car as our Chevrolet (Aka Daewoo) Lacetti 5 Door.

The only LHD only Euro models I can think of are:

-Lancia
-The previous Renault Twingo
-AWD Mercedes Benz models
-The Alfa Romeo 166 (From 2006)
-The Renault vel Satis (From 2005)
-Lada (The UK can be thankful not to get these, they're still crap)


That's all that comes from the top of my head, short of the AWD Mercedes cars, they're not missing much.
i apologize

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suzuki_SX4

this is what im talking about. Not a compact car at all. sx4. Reno is made by daewoo as you said.


Earlier I said the ford puma might be unreliable based on consumer reports of the festiva and moppie corrected me to say it is the european fiesta.

I have no data on the eurpean ford puma by consumer reports as I said but I would say that the fiesta was an extremely reliable vehicle.

So when I said the list of 5 vehicles seemed unreliable I think I should have said the ford puma is the only one I think would be a long term reliable vehicle. This is going back but worth correcting probably.

as a Chinese guy living in london, I am bound by my sense of non-conformity that i can not drive a honda civic.

LOL! Living in a city where about 25% of the population if Chinese I will offer no further comment, except to say that Honda does very well here.


On the other hand, just because a car is RHD doesn't mean it is available in the UK. I can't be bothered to look right now but how many cars that are sold in Japan aren't sold in the UK?


The UK, Russia, and, would you believe Canada, are rapidly growing export markets for Japanese used cars.
While the number of New cars sold in the UK out of Japan isn't huge, your access to used Japanese models is almost unlimited.

i would like to know why you say that the Ford ST170 and VW Golf V5 are unreliable when compared to the Ford Puma.

i would like to know why you say that the Ford ST170 and VW Golf V5 are unreliable when compared to the Ford Puma.
Wow,

Well thank you for asking. If anything I write isnt clear to you please let me know. At least this is data for you to consider.

Ok consumer reports is a non profit consumer reporting agency in the united states.

Every year they publish a new car buying guide and a used car buying guide.

What it does is rank the problems reported by owners in about 12 different categories. From power equipment to exhaust, transmission etc.

If problems come up in an area that are out of the ordinary the rank it like, this in a pie chart: well below average, below average average, above average, well above average.

Ok well each year of a vehicle often gets a different rank. However some years of the ford focus it was among the worst vehicles tested. The volkswagon golf is almost always considered below average.[edit if a specific model of a car, like for instance the vr5, were to be very different than the model as a whole they do point this out in case you are wondering. For instance the toyota 4 runner with v6 was below average but with v8 way above average a peculiarity[/edit]

Those are the two least reliable vehicles in their category sold in the us many years, worse than hyundai chevy etc.

When you orignally posted 5 vehicles I had the consumer report new car guide out to compare. 3 of the models I had no data to give you. Two are italian, there are only maserati ferrari lambourghini sold in the us and I assume you know how reliable those are. Ford puma I have no idea. Do a wikipedia on the puma and youll read its confusing story. However I would guess its a very reliable design. The first fiesta was built by mazda. The mazda fiestas sold in the us are still running strong that I have seen.

Now there is a second popular consumer reporting agency here in the us called jd power. What it does is rank vehicles on initial quality.
Now you may say, why does that matter it doesnt seem to affect the lifespan of the car if one came to the lot with a blown out bulb.

This index matter much more if you plan to buy the car new and get rid of it. Lease it or sell it young. Because the initial problems are likely to be the ones you run into.

These rankings often have different winners but some things in common. One japanese cars are always on top, the other japanese cars are always near the top.

For instance, porsche was the top ranked jd power manufacturer this year. But the porsche boxter is ranked way below average reliability for most years. This is because the vehicle itself is just designed in a way that requires mechanical attention at the best of times.

These are the two publications I look at to rank a vehicle model on reliability. Each car is an individual but the statistics are what you place a bet on.

jd power is free for you to look at on the web

consumer reports is not. I look at the actual publication in the book store.


jd power also has a resale index. However, jd power is a for profit company so how much weight you give them is up to you.

i) i know what consumer reports are.

ii) in case you weren't aware, the focus that is sold in the US is built in the US (and mexico?). As such, any report of the reliablilty of the US car does not relate to the UK car. I think the same can be said of the US market VW Golf (aren't they also built in mexico?) Regarding the Fiesta. No, the first one wasn't built by Mazda. The US market version might have been but there's a place in UK very near me called Dagenham that's pretty much been churning them out since the 70s. However, around the latter part of the 90s, Mazda's 121 was a rebadged Fiesta. I'm pretty certain they didn't build them seeing as how Ford factories were tooled up to produce them in the first place.

iii) it is common knowledge that these consumer reports are not exactly the most reliable of sources. Ask around.

iv) I've just read the wiki on the Ford puma and it makes sense to me and I can't really see what in the very short article is confusing. Incidentally, I wouldn't entirely trust everything that is on the Wiki site either. In a lot of cases, articles have been posted that no one has bothered to check for incorrect, incomplete or misleading statements.

v) this is the second time that you have stated that porsche cars are designed to need mechanical attention. I would like to see where you draw this conclusion from.

Funny you say that about Porsche, all your precious ownership surveys (Top Gear, Auto Express, JD Power 3 year survey) put the Porsche 911 and Boxster towards the top in reliability (And even the crap cars like Peugeots 307 maintain at least a 65% mark for reliability.)

The US model VW Golf, Beetle and Jetta is made in Mexico, in a plant that until fairly recently churned out the original Air cooled VW's, you'd expect the cars to be crap, whereas the UK (And most other RHD) VW cars come from South Africa, one that had teething problems initially, but has recently been churning out very well built cars.

consumer reports

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/cars/types/a-to-z-index.htm

this is the web site. They charge. Dont pay for it lol. There should be an about us on the site though.

On the opening to the data (the free part) they give the ford focus a recommended.
That means its reliability score for 2006 is average or avove (in this case average) so the 2006 focus reliability score has improved.

Hey read about it and decide if you trust it. There are other organizations that use consumer in their name that are quite worthless.

This is not those. This is the real deal. Its the most comprehensive test on vehicles or most anything. Its a non profit testing facility.

Yes, us market only.

you so determined the nature of the mechanical design of porsche cars and discovered that they were designed to require regular mechanical attention just from reading consumer reports?

you so determined the nature of the mechanical design of porsche cars and discovered that they were designed to require regular mechanical attention just from reading consumer reports?

I have my own experience with porsche 911. My dad had one when i was growing up. Very low miles, extreme repair history.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porsche_911

The other thread, it is asking about porsche 914. This has the 2.0 air cooled volkswagon boxer( or I suppose some after reading the entry some rare porsche engines). I had two cars with this same engine.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porsche_914
This car is not really like any other porsche. Its a cool car dont get me wrong Id take one but it was a this or that 914 air cooled vs toyota mr2.
This porsche has an air cooled engine. That means that when it gets hot you pull over lol. Its not perfect for commuting to work its a weekend toy.

My personal experience with porsche and volkswagon was not so great but not so bad.

Those are old porsches and volkswagons though. I wouldnt say, well porsches fell apart a lot in the 80s so they must now. If you ask me my opinion on the new porsches, thats the only thing you can go on as a US consumer. Consumer reports and jd power.

You have to be clear on what you are asking. I answered both questions now, you ask what experience I have with porsches or what about porsche reliability scores.

from what i gather, you are habitual buyer of high mileage old cars.
do you not think that any bad experiences you have had with certain cars might have something to do with this?

i thought the point i was getting at was quite clear.
how did you determine that the design of the porsches was such that it required regular mechanical attention? As in, from reading, you understood how the car works in every facet of its design and engineering and found that it is a deliberately flawed design? That is essentially what you are saying here, no?

from what i can see, this is either a bad use of English or an unfounded statement.

just as you can cite your father as having a bad car, i can cite my friend who has run a 993C2 and now a 996GT3 with no problems what so ever. As pointed out by Jimster, consumer reports place both the 911 and Boxster towards the top of the reliablilty charts.

from what i gather, you are habitual buyer of high mileage old cars.
do you not think that any bad experiences you have had with certain cars might have something to do with this?
Um this is true.

I buy and sell about 5 cars a year.

High mileage meaning alway 60-120 k miles

Yes, because I see the cars used I value reliability. A used car that is the type that requires a lot of owner maintenence is a big risk to me by the time it is 5 years old.
So you see, the research I do into consumer reports is for used cars.

YES, this is what I research for, for the cars I buy. They are different than the cars you buy. I think we are communicating now.

I see list of 5 cars, to me I see all five five years old. I will buy your golf but not the other four. Lol, that is what I tried to say earlier.

Ok so you are asking why i buy used cars? I have bought a new car on financing in the past. I prospect the used car market. So, I buy low sell high.

I drive, I try to drive for free. I buy a car for half what it goes for, drive it and sell it. This is the goal.

Funny you say that about Porsche, all your precious ownership surveys (Top Gear, Auto Express, JD Power 3 year survey) put the Porsche 911 and Boxster towards the top in reliability (And even the crap cars like Peugeots 307 maintain at least a 65% mark for reliability.)

The US model VW Golf, Beetle and Jetta is made in Mexico, in a plant that until fairly recently churned out the original Air cooled VW's, you'd expect the cars to be crap, whereas the UK (And most other RHD) VW cars come from South Africa, one that had teething problems initially, but has recently been churning out very well built cars.

I missed your post.

Ok, jd power ranks porsche highest this year

But consumer reports lists porsches as below reliable, way below reliable etc. Every model ( 4 basically) below average.

So how does this pan out? Initial quality is not reliability.

It is the state the car is in new such as body panels wiring alignment.

Ok so you follow porsche. They are a small volume car manufacturer. I believe they only run 6 months a year or maybe thats not current. They do things quite differently than a mass producer like toyota or volkswagon or whoever. They could put the time in to win the jd power listing on initial quality always.

Theres nothing that Ive seen that shows a porsche is a trouble free daily driver like a camry lol. Those are two different things.

we have always been communicating.
i have always been aware of the kind of car buyer you are; it is you who seemed to have missed what kind of buyer I am. In fact, from your initial posts here, you seemed to have missed a few things.

You first enquired about my choics and wondered about smaller Japanese cars (honda jazz and toyota yaris), completely missing the point about me wanting a bigger car than my current car; a toyota yaris. I also posted images of cars that if you knew anything about them, you would know that they are all past models; hence 2nd hand and not new as you mentioned later. i.e they are used cars.

By the way, I didn't ask why you have such buying habits. You don't have to explain yourself to me.

ok jimster

I use these rankings too

http://www.jdpower.com/autos/usedratings.asp

Ok I look at that data. But that data is fluff. This is data a new car buyer should look at. Thats what its compile for after all. This is a survey of very small scale. It means something but its not enough data for me.

The real data is consumerreports.org. This is taking the information from millions of vehicles.

Ok and drunkenmunky, the 911 wasnt badly built. It just needed to be maintained. Gaskets bushings shocks filters you name it. It had a day a month to fix it and 3 days a month to drive it.

But what I dealt with and what your friend dealt with arent going to shape my opinion on whether a porsche is reliable. I need to see data, or I would say I dont know.

I must say I have never seen a porsche used as a daily commuter. Thats not to say people dont do that Im sure they do. But its not the machine of choice for most porsche owners. This is a sports car of someone whos serious about staying on top of it.

and going slightly back on topic, i've just discovered that it would cost me the same to insure a late model Fiat Coupe 20V turbo with the 6 speed gearbox, or an 147 GTA as it would cost for me to cover a 993 turbo!
AND
that quote is from a place that is giving me a higher quote on my existing car than I am already paying so the actual cost of cover for any car I buy should be less than the numbers I'm getting.

result!

now where did i put that £40,000?

or...
£14,000 for an R34 GTR?

not exactly what i started with but these insurance quotes are putting all sorts of ideas into my head.

Im spamming with a personal question.

Ok, so obviously Ive never driven in the uk. Bear with me

So you are financing a used car from a private party or used car dealer?

Or you have the cash?

Your insurance consideration, is this because you have to get full coverage insurance to get the loan, or is it because you have to have full coverage insurance in the uk no matter what?

Here in the us, my insurance is just for 6 month terms. I cover three vehicles it doesnt matter what they are, 10$ to switch a new car in. lambourghini in mazda protege out $10. But its not full coverage, Im not financing the vehicles. Thats what Im trying to understand.

first of all, you seem to be using the wrong terms with regards to forums.
you used "troll" in another thread in the wrong sense and here, you are using spam in the wrong sense.

anyway.
I will buy from whoever has the car that I want.
I have the cash but at the moment, I am reluctant to spend all of it because of my particular inbetween study/work situation. I am halfway through my (post-grad)professional studies and sometime in the future I will have to stop work and go back into full time study. That is why I have budgeted myself around £8000, which i can "comfortably" lose from my savings, for a slightly used car and insurance and other initial sundries.

I don't need insurance to guarantee a loan or anything. I've never heard of needing a guarantee for a loan for a car here. Property and business; yes. Car; no.
I do however, need insurance on the car; that is UK law. All cars driven on the road must be covered by some sort of insurance. Third party damage cover is enough but depending on how confident or how safe you are, you might want full cover.