Is it better to be a simple and an unexamined mind, or is it better to be one who questions?*

Can you use ignorance as an excuse to enter heaven?*

I mean, part of being an examined mind and having it opened to the truths of the world is acknowledging the fact that it has flaws. But is it right to be fully aware of them, and not do anything about it? Wouldn't that be much worse than simply being ignorant?*

In other-words, lets assume you know that some miscellaneous atrocity is taking place, yet you stand by and do nothing about it. Or, you know selflessness is the most significant deed to humanity, yet you "put that behind you" and you get up and go to work everyday, and with your first paycheck, you put in a payment for a new subwoofer.

I mean, am I to understand that some giggly teenage girl, who is blindly yelling "I love you Justin Timberlake" at TRL studios, has a better chance then myself, a man who is asking this question?
Or, by simply asking that question, is my life forked to serving mankind, or ending up in hell?

For my Catholic readers out there, what are your thoughts on purgatory?



*1. Heaven, Jannah, in my case Svarga, etc etc. Term was not only directed at the Western religions.

*2. I asked a similar question awhile back, and one of the answers I got was along the lines of "The standard response to this question is: it is better to be Socrates examined". I forgot who posted that and I don't care who, but please avoid responses like that. The term "standard answer" should not exist in the realm of philosophy. Think, and please give your personal thoughts and provide reasoning behind your answer.

*3. By being aware of the world's flaws, I mean fully thinking about the atrocities. I understand that practically everyone knows there is starvation, genocide, disease, greed, etc in the world. But there is a big difference in simply knowing and acknowledging its existence, and fully thinking about its impact and significance.
In other words, if you asked some girl "What do you think about the genocide in Rwanda?"
and she replies; "Yea its bad, whatever" and then began to do her nails, do you really think she has given it any thought, or has an examined and opened mind?

i'm not sure i get the question here.

ignorance has nothing to do with it. it's quite simple and been explained many a time, if you accept...I'm assuming we're going with Christianity, Jesus into your heart and live for Him, then you're good.

That's about as simple as it can be put. If the JT fan loves Jesus just as well and has done that while you sit on the fence and debate whether you should, yes you're screwed.

No to mention. wait...let me find it.

Revelations 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

One might say that only someone living in a state of ignorance would expect entry into an after life through religion :)

Faith and knowledge are contradictory terms.

Faith itself could be a form of ignorance, a rationalization of reality that we wish to understand but not to truly learn. if you follow this form of thought, that faith is ignorance, than by having faith, you assure ascension, therefore by being following ignorance, you assure ascension.
Surely, asking questions is a search for knowledge to put peace to burning questions, but peace could be found through any rationalization, the correct answer does not have to be the catalyst. Faith can give peace to the mind's questoins as well. In the end, you are asking yourself does asking questions to pacify my ignorance discourse me from faith?

Revelations 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

It's passages like this that completely turn me off to religion. In all honesty I can't possibly believe in christianity, and think at my logical level at the same time. It couldn't happen unless something happened in my life out of the blue that lessened my logical thinking. So in the face of going to hell it would seem that I have to "A" wait for such an occurance, or "B" hit myself on the head with a hammer until I could no longer think logically. WTF!?!

In order for me to actually do such a thing I would have to believe in God in the first place so much that I would cause physical damage to myself in hopes of retarding myself enough to believe in him. Which means the only possibility of me believing in God is for some natural occurance.

What the F#@! kind of all-knowing, all-powerful, all-great God is this? One that would literally "damn" (as in "to hell") his people through his creation of them. So this means from a religious standpoint that logical people such as myself are evil, and will remain evil beings yes?

I could go on for days, but i'll stop here until I can properly word another reply.

Faith itself could be a form of ignorance, a rationalization of reality that we wish to understand but not to truly learn. if you follow this form of thought, that faith is ignorance, than by having faith, you assure ascension, therefore by being following ignorance, you assure ascension.
Surely, asking questions is a search for knowledge to put peace to burning questions, but peace could be found through any rationalization, the correct answer does not have to be the catalyst. Faith can give peace to the mind's questoins as well. In the end, you are asking yourself does asking questions to pacify my ignorance discourse me from faith?


I dont think I agree with you here. What would you think of a religion if they preach unity and not believe in a race? How about a religion that is taught to respect others beliefs? I dont see any ignorance in that. I think we have to break it down in pieces in order for us to truly answer the question. I like to see some examples by you in order for me to completely understand your answer :)

It's passages like this that completely turn me off to religion. In all honesty I can't possibly believe in christianity, and think at my logical level at the same time. It couldn't happen unless something happened in my life out of the blue that lessened my logical thinking. So in the face of going to hell it would seem that I have to "A" wait for such an occurance, or "B" hit myself on the head with a hammer until I could no longer think logically. WTF!?!

In order for me to actually do such a thing I would have to believe in God in the first place so much that I would cause physical damage to myself in hopes of retarding myself enough to believe in him. Which means the only possibility of me believing in God is for some natural occurance.

What the F#@! kind of all-knowing, all-powerful, all-great God is this? One that would literally "damn" (as in "to hell") his people through his creation of them. So this means from a religious standpoint that logical people such as myself are evil, and will remain evil beings yes?

I could go on for days, but i'll stop here until I can properly word another reply.
what makes you logical? the only means we have to define ourselves is by us. by comparing ourselves to others therefore without any true reference, you're ilogical compared to another.

AF logic

Igor is god and everyone else is a n00b. that's the truth...as we know it. we should follow his example on how to be here. listen to igor.

now, let's create another scenario. igor is not in charge. igor was just given the right to run the site, but in reality it was created by someone else, but no one knows who. so, if igor is just a nother n00b like us, then who really is in charge? who's the leader we need to look up to? without exact definition there's "chaos" and confusement. people being banned and n00bs acting like they're all that and "logical" while other mods aren't.

therefore, in all this, you're just as illogical as the next person because there is no definition of wha is logical. but, if God exists and this is how He does things, then so be it. We can not make sense or argue againist or for something that we do not have a grasp on. such as why AF was really created by someone then handed over. was it always AF or did Igor change it after gaining control over it?

it's a little out there, but i figured it's the one thing we all can relate to. but in the end, you're wrong no matter what. so am i, unless i only state the possibilities and not what is or isn't and there in lies the idea of philosophy. it's being lukewarm, unless though all this, a point is made and you meant it, but others didn't know you meant it.

EDIT: This is the same problem the gov't has and people are just too stupid to realize it. Everyone wants something, but can't provide a definition. Abortion is a big deal, but until a definition of when a soul is created or life is actually life, you can't decide what is murder. But, wait for the fun part;by the gov't agreeing to a soul development in the unborn and defining it for abortion reasons, they have also instated a law that is under the though or a soul which pertains to religion (one way or another) and therefore we have run into the problem of seperation of church and state. which, in a case this big would definitely be brought up, if something as small as the pledge of alligence is in talks.

There, without definition, there's nothing. Faith is a form of definition and by it people define life differently. You define it as faith in Christianity is stupid and makes others fools and while some religious people find full faith in sciences and technology are fools. thus, why the world will never get along because of lack of definition. if we were to agree on something, it should the basis that despite who we are and what we believe; we live, love, breathed, die...we're flesh, blood, and fragile. We're human being and by that definition, we're all mortal and truly mean nothing unless you rise above the basics because beyond the basics is where eveything changes. simple arithmetic - algebra - calculus. it started with a simple principle but with new definitions, it became something more, higher and cannot be compared for it's definition is not the same as another.

ok, im going to end this now because im on a roll, but i gotta clean house to sell.

whoa, no need to come at me for calling myself "logical". I wasn't praising myself
nor was I saying I was smarter then any religious person. The point of my post was to point out what I think is a flaw that can not be overlooked IMO.
That is why would God create a being that will inevitabley go to hell?

i didnt go at you. i used your post to bring forth my statement.

if you read it, your question should already be answered. we cannot compare ourselves to Him. We cannot compare ourselves to anything really, at least not in a way of hoping to find who's better or why someone would do this opposed to another.

Overall, your simply just aasking questions that cannot be answered. if anyone does, they're wrong.

EDIT: let me make this simplier and provide an example. why do parents buy their kid a goldfish that will inevitably die in a few days due to neglect and not just 'cause it's a goldfish.

easy...

amusement.

Stop thinking narrow and from the mind of a regular person, but as a king, 'cause that is what he is. why would a king continually tax people when he knows they have no money so inevitably, by his laws, he must kill them. amusement. if God wants followers, He'll make them. If he wants free thinking people to wander around several decades or more and figure out life...well, that's what He did. Who knows, maybe it's an experiment or a way to filter out the best of the best of the best.

But how's that for a thought?

let's say there is a god and that there is a heaven (or whatever you wish to call it).
what happens to the naturally good man who does always offer his help to others before himself, who rushes to help those who need help but does not believe in god or heaven and whatever is related?
in the case of christianity, does this man, who does not pray to god and has not accepted jesus in his life get into that heaven?
what if the good man doesn't believe in god?

um...to hell he goes. it's not complicated. not to be edgy, but it's so simple, i'm not sure why it seems so difficult.

then again, i guess 'cause it seems so simple, it is hard. i love a good paradox.

but yeah, he's screwed.

let's say there is a god and that there is a heaven (or whatever you wish to call it).
what happens to the naturally good man who does always offer his help to others before himself, who rushes to help those who need help but does not believe in god or heaven and whatever is related?
in the case of christianity, does this man, who does not pray to god and has not accepted jesus in his life get into that heaven?
what if the good man doesn't believe in god?


I understand what you mean. According to my beliefs and we actually had a speech about this at my local Mosques. Anyone can be "good" but they will be worthless. Anyone who denies God's existance will not enter Heaven. No matter how "good" you think person is. Im not here to judge anyone and God knows whats best in our hearts.

EDIT: let me make this simplier and provide an example. why do parents buy their kid a goldfish that will inevitably die in a few days due to neglect and not just 'cause it's a goldfish.

easy...

amusement.

Stop thinking narrow and from the mind of a regular person, but as a king, 'cause that is what he is. why would a king continually tax people when he knows they have no money so inevitably, by his laws, he must kill them. amusement. if God wants followers, He'll make them. If he wants free thinking people to wander around several decades or more and figure out life...well, that's what He did. Who knows, maybe it's an experiment or a way to filter out the best of the best of the best.

But how's that for a thought?

A kid with a magnifying glass on an ant hill. Not the kind of God I would idolize. That's my final thought, and I'll quit hijacking the thread.

I understand what you mean. According to my beliefs and we actually had a speech about this at my local Mosques. Anyone can be "good" but they will be worthless. Anyone who denies God's existance will not enter Heaven. No matter how "good" you think person is. Im not here to judge anyone and God knows whats best in our hearts.

And that is where religion loses me. We are on this earth that god supposedly created, and yet god has given us absolutely NO reason to believe in his existence. There is not one shred of evidence, anywhere, that would lead the logical mind to believe that god exists. And yet he expects us to blindly believe, like sheep following their shepherd. If we don't believe, we go to hell. That is quite frankly one of the dumbest things I've ever heard. If god really were all knowing, he would understand how logic and reason lead the human mind to doubt, and thus deny his existence. And he would not expect them to defy their logic to follow a fairy tail.

so let me get this right, according to some religions, the man who is good out of his own doing and not merely following the guidelines of that religion (i.e acts of his own free will to be good) doesn't get the "benefits"?

A kid with a magnifying glass on an ant hill. Not the kind of God I would idolize. That's my final thought, and I'll quit hijacking the thread.

no no no. he's not holding a magnifying glass. well, i guess in a way you an say that. its free will.

o0o0o0o!!! my domino theory

too long to explain right now, but it's like dominos. He set us up, and now we're going. We could stop at anytime, mess up the whole line, or keep going smoothly. that's the short version...very short. naw man, you aint hijacking.

seems like everyone is having a different discussion on here with someone else.

And that is where religion loses me. We are on this earth that god supposedly created, and yet god has given us absolutely NO reason to believe in his existence. There is not one shred of evidence, anywhere, that would lead the logical mind to believe that god exists. And yet he expects us to blindly believe, like sheep following their shepherd. If we don't believe, we go to hell. That is quite frankly one of the dumbest things I've ever heard. If god really were all knowing, he would understand how logic and reason lead the human mind to doubt, and thus deny his existence. And he would not expect them to defy their logic to follow a fairy tail.


Well dont let me throw you off a bit. I advise you to ask a muslim Scholar about this certain matter. Im just a mere student and as i've mentioned before, my knowledge is limited. You can ask the Scholars online and this is a very reputable site www.sunnipath.com (http://www.sunnipath.com)
Thats if you really care to know what we believe to think of unbelievers doing good deeds. Everything we do is because we do it for God. If someone doesn't believe in God, who are they doin it for? Themselves? For the people? If so, how will it benefit them? It is something for you to think about.

so let me get this right, according to some religions, the man who is good out of his own doing and not merely following the guidelines of that religion (i.e acts of his own free will to be good) doesn't get the "benefits"?

Benefits from whom?

benefits as per the topic of the thread; getting to go to heaven.

benefits as per the topic of the thread; getting to go to heaven.

I know. Im just giving you something to think about.

God's given evidence. everyday (not literally...just like when they say millions die everyday of cancer. well, at such a rate, ebveryone would be dead) they find more proof that the Bible is truth. And actually, that's what the Bible is for.

Know of Moses? Well yes, there was a line of chariots, armor, and skeletons under the red sea. no ship remains though.

everything else i forgot, been awhile since ive had to recall. but it's not like there's no evidence that some random though wa conceived or put ther einto someone then a religion started.

EDIT: and please dont make me explain logic again...if you watch Star Trek, you logic isn't always the answer. *sigh* like any of you are actually logical. that just makes me laugh that people keep using the term "logical" when we could easily scroll through someone's past and point out a million illogical events. please just stop, 'cause no one is.

Certainly you can't make every decision won't be "logical". When it comes to things like religion though you actually have time to think about it.

Example: Basic logic is that if you can't see it, smell it, hear it, touch it, taste it then it doesn't exist. Therefore I am logical in my assesment of christianity because I have no proof that God exists.

basic logic? co2 you can see, hear, smell, touch or taste...

come on man, try harder.

basic logic? co2 you can see, hear, smell, touch or taste...

come on man, try harder.

touche' not so wisely worded, but this is something you can't argue with. Christianity is based around the idea that there is a God. If there is no tangible proof, then that should leave you with the answer that it doesn't exist meaning christianity is bogus. Logic is an extremely broad term, but I think this classifies as basic logic or the way in which every persons brain thinks.

edit: so how is this NOT a logical way of thinking?

because, now everything we have discovered is rubbish and luck. Faith is the basis of life and not logic. If logic was, then nothing would have happened because no one would have the trust or faith to go for it, to find something out, discover something new.

Logic kills out everything, therefore being logical itsn't actually logical. It ruins any chance of someting new. Logic would say, you're big and fat and will never lose weight, but eat Subway, who knows. 6 yrs in a coma, what a waste of money, then they come out of it. Using logic to disprove religion disproves a lot because religion is not unlike anything else because of faith. it's based around faith as much as most of the world. science, actions, any belief...

shit, logic would say, why waste any money going to movies when in the end, they all wind up on HBO. that's basic logic. The other isn't logic as much as it's your own belief on what you can see, touch,etc. Senses are only as good as you can trust them.

Never get that feelings that someone is watching you. A odd lingering thought? Logicly, there's nothing there, but the hair on your back is still rising and you go back and see if anything was really there. this is all basic logic.

ok, im tired cause i got work at 5, IM me if ya want and ill go on forever. ive been studying religion/faith/beliefs/sociaology etc for like...ever or since i was about 10ish. Or i can give you my "book" and have fun with that. :icon16:

EDIT: no one thinks the same or else this thread wouldnt be here.

so let me get this right, according to some religions, the man who is good out of his own doing and not merely following the guidelines of that religion (i.e acts of his own free will to be good) doesn't get the "benefits"?

According to the Christian religion "...there is no one who does good, no not even one (Romans 3:12)" and "All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away.(Isaiah 64:6)"

The basic theme is that in comparison to an almighty deity, who created not only the physical universe, but even things such as good and evil, no human could possibly be considered good.
"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God (Ephesians 2:8)".

Salvation then, in the Christian theology, is not earned, it is given gracefully. The one thing God asks of people in order to receive this "gift" is faith. You say God has left no evidence of Himself, and to an extent you're correct. However, if you were learned about the religion you are criticizing you might find that this is intentional on the part of God. He asks for faith, so giving evidence would make faith meaningless, and everyone would believe because they had seen. If I had the power to create everything, and I mean everything (i.e. not only physical things), I think I would probably ask for more than just faith. Lucky for you guys I'm not God, at least I don't think I am.

Two points in closing.
1. I am a bit disappointed in the AF community when it comes to threads like this. This is the philosophizing forum, a place for examinatory thought and critical analysis, yet so many are quick to discredit things which they know nothing about. I am certainly not claiming to be a theological authority, but I have spent a couple of years studying various world religions including their theology, traditions, rituals etc. and I always research my answers and questions before I present them to other members of the community (not only here, but in other non-internet public forums). There are some smart people here and if you can wade through the masses and useless responses, you may end up learning something. Some of them are getting a bit less helpful in their old age, giving one sentence quips with no supporting logic or thought processes (Moppie!), but maybe you can eek something out of them if you try. If you seek to understand something, you must actually seek to understand it. You can find most religious texts online now even with search functions, topical breakdowns etc. Religious education has never been easier, it just takes some effort on the part of the learner.

2. This is a discussion about religion. Angels, demons, heaven, hell, God (or gods) right, wrong, good and evil. The standard rules of logic do not always apply here. You have to be willing to think above the physical level (the five senses) if you want to gain understanding of things of a supernatural nature. You can understand something without agreeing with it.

If you read all of that, you should get a prize! Unfortunately, this is the internet so there are no prizes. Sorry! :frown:

You know what they say,

Ignorance is bliss :D

According to the Christian religion "...there is no one who does good, no not even one (Romans 3:12)" and "All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away.(Isaiah 64:6)"

The basic theme is that in comparison to an almighty deity, who created not only the physical universe, but even things such as good and evil, no human could possibly be considered good.
"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God (Ephesians 2:8)".

Salvation then, in the Christian theology, is not earned, it is given gracefully. The one thing God asks of people in order to receive this "gift" is faith. You say God has left no evidence of Himself, and to an extent you're correct. However, if you were learned about the religion you are criticizing you might find that this is intentional on the part of God. He asks for faith, so giving evidence would make faith meaningless, and everyone would believe because they had seen. If I had the power to create everything, and I mean everything (i.e. not only physical things), I think I would probably ask for more than just faith. Lucky for you guys I'm not God, at least I don't think I am.

Two points in closing.
1. I am a bit disappointed in the AF community when it comes to threads like this. This is the philosophizing forum, a place for examinatory thought and critical analysis, yet so many are quick to discredit things which they know nothing about. I am certainly not claiming to be a theological authority, but I have spent a couple of years studying various world religions including their theology, traditions, rituals etc. and I always research my answers and questions before I present them to other members of the community (not only here, but in other non-internet public forums). There are some smart people here and if you can wade through the masses and useless responses, you may end up learning something. Some of them are getting a bit less helpful in their old age, giving one sentence quips with no supporting logic or thought processes (Moppie!), but maybe you can eek something out of them if you try. If you seek to understand something, you must actually seek to understand it. You can find most religious texts online now even with search functions, topical breakdowns etc. Religious education has never been easier, it just takes some effort on the part of the learner.

2. This is a discussion about religion. Angels, demons, heaven, hell, God (or gods) right, wrong, good and evil. The standard rules of logic do not always apply here. You have to be willing to think above the physical level (the five senses) if you want to gain understanding of things of a supernatural nature. You can understand something without agreeing with it.

If you read all of that, you should get a prize! Unfortunately, this is the internet so there are no prizes. Sorry! :frown:

and to sum that up with a quote from the great George Micheal himself, "just gotta have faith faith afaith-ah!"