Alarm system or electrical nightmare?
Ed_Strong
08-14-2006, 11:50 AM
This is the wife ride and our son is been driving the thing to work, it's the same 1995 GC that I had posted about several times already! (I'm sick of it)
Well, now the van came home from my sons work on Saturday, about an hour later my wife went to drive it, but the alarm started acting up and there was no power to all the electrical systems... no door locks, no dash lights, no gauges, no hazards, no engine, etc. But the alarm kept whinning away, so she left it alone untill I came back from work.
I went to check it out and this is what I got... I opened the door and the alarm started whinning, the door chime instead of going "ding, ding, ding" was going "ding ding, ding ding, ding ding" (odd) and there was a clicking noise under the dash like if the hazards were left on but they weren't. Nothing else worked!
This vehicle was bought used and has a cheap alarm system that was installed before we got it. The way you activate it is by switching to the "Engine ON" position and flipping a small switch under the dash ON then close the door(s) and wait a few seconds for it to activate.
If the battery is disconnected the alarm will start whinning as soon as you connect the battery back on. So that led me to figure that the battery must have gone low since nothing electrical works and that caused the alarm to activate itself. I thought it must be the alternator stopped charging and the battery went low or either the battery got old and refused to take a charge, right.
Well, today I took my car to jump start the battery, opened the door on the van and the alarm started whinning, took a pair of snippers and shut that baby up by cutting the wire at the horn. Started to jump start the van and gave it a try... with the switch on the ON possition gauges worked, I was like good we have some progress... went to start it, no go, won't even click or anything, and I disconnected the jumper cables.
So I figured the alarm must be cutting power, started playing with it untill I got it to turn off, (we never used it and I couldn't remember how to shut it off) started to crank it and it started right away without the jumper cables. I put a multimeter to the battery and it read 13.56V with the engine running, then rev the engine to 3000RPM but it would not go past 13.88V which I think is good rite? (it should not go over 14V rite?).
Then shut off the engine and battery stayed at 12.52V for a few seconds and it started to fluctuate going down 12.44V, 12.32V, 12.28, etc, so I go to turn engine over again and no go, same thing with gauges and everything dead all over, so I thougth about the alarm again. I can't hear it since I cut the wire but I see the alarm light on the dash flipping at me. I turn off the alarm and engine starts again. I'm going to crank it again in the evening to see if it's holding a charge.
OK, now for the question... does anyone know how to turn of this alarm OFF for good so I can better diagnose the problem? We never used the alarm before so why did it start acting up now? I think there's something else going on thats causing the alarm to go crazy but I'm not too good with electrical systems especially alarm systems!
Thank in advance for any help and sorry for the long post. ;)
Well, now the van came home from my sons work on Saturday, about an hour later my wife went to drive it, but the alarm started acting up and there was no power to all the electrical systems... no door locks, no dash lights, no gauges, no hazards, no engine, etc. But the alarm kept whinning away, so she left it alone untill I came back from work.
I went to check it out and this is what I got... I opened the door and the alarm started whinning, the door chime instead of going "ding, ding, ding" was going "ding ding, ding ding, ding ding" (odd) and there was a clicking noise under the dash like if the hazards were left on but they weren't. Nothing else worked!
This vehicle was bought used and has a cheap alarm system that was installed before we got it. The way you activate it is by switching to the "Engine ON" position and flipping a small switch under the dash ON then close the door(s) and wait a few seconds for it to activate.
If the battery is disconnected the alarm will start whinning as soon as you connect the battery back on. So that led me to figure that the battery must have gone low since nothing electrical works and that caused the alarm to activate itself. I thought it must be the alternator stopped charging and the battery went low or either the battery got old and refused to take a charge, right.
Well, today I took my car to jump start the battery, opened the door on the van and the alarm started whinning, took a pair of snippers and shut that baby up by cutting the wire at the horn. Started to jump start the van and gave it a try... with the switch on the ON possition gauges worked, I was like good we have some progress... went to start it, no go, won't even click or anything, and I disconnected the jumper cables.
So I figured the alarm must be cutting power, started playing with it untill I got it to turn off, (we never used it and I couldn't remember how to shut it off) started to crank it and it started right away without the jumper cables. I put a multimeter to the battery and it read 13.56V with the engine running, then rev the engine to 3000RPM but it would not go past 13.88V which I think is good rite? (it should not go over 14V rite?).
Then shut off the engine and battery stayed at 12.52V for a few seconds and it started to fluctuate going down 12.44V, 12.32V, 12.28, etc, so I go to turn engine over again and no go, same thing with gauges and everything dead all over, so I thougth about the alarm again. I can't hear it since I cut the wire but I see the alarm light on the dash flipping at me. I turn off the alarm and engine starts again. I'm going to crank it again in the evening to see if it's holding a charge.
OK, now for the question... does anyone know how to turn of this alarm OFF for good so I can better diagnose the problem? We never used the alarm before so why did it start acting up now? I think there's something else going on thats causing the alarm to go crazy but I'm not too good with electrical systems especially alarm systems!
Thank in advance for any help and sorry for the long post. ;)
RIP
08-14-2006, 11:38 PM
I've never had to mess with an alarm system and hope I never will. It appears by the responses that not many others have either. Judging by other threads on the subject they can turn on you in a heartbeat and put you in an assylum. Especially the aftermarket systems.
What would I do? First I'm betting you don't know the manufacturer and don't have a schematic. You'll have to do it the hard way.
> First I would look at the Junction Block (JB) under the dash. If you're lucky a pimple faced kid installed the system and instead of making a good connection, he just pushed a wire into a fuse socket and called it good. If you see something like this it could be the power source for the system. Pull the wire out and see if this kills the alarm. If it still works you probably killed some other accessory. Reconnect the wire.
> Hopefully you can find the brain box for the alarm. If it has a connector, use a meter and check for 12VDC at any contact. (put one lead on the contact and connect the other lead to a good ground point). Power to the system should be hot all the time so you shouldn't have to turn the key to on. When you detect 12VDC trace the wire for that contact to it's power source. Most likely the source will be the Junction Block (fuse panel) under the dash or the Power Distribution Center under the hood next to the battery. They may have even spliced it to another "always hot" power wire. Wherever the power source is disconnect the wire and check the alarm again. Don't get anxious and cut the wire. You may have to reconnect it.
> Be aware I have read threads on this and other forums where guys have messed with alarm systems and only created more problems for themselves. Especially where systems are integrated into the Body Control Module or Powertrain Control Computer circuits.
> You said you're getting 13+ volts at the battery with the engine running. Every car I've ever checked read 14+ VDC. You might want to pull the alternator and have it bench tested. Take the battery with you and have it load tested. That's the only true test for a battery. Where? Autozone, Pepboys, Sears, etc. While you're at it make sure the ground connection for the negative battery lead is tight and not corroded. It's probably grounded to the engine block. Even if it looks ok, I would loosen it up and retighten it. Hopefully someone with some experience on alarms will chime in and tell you exactly what you should do and waste my 15 minutes. Keep in touch.
What would I do? First I'm betting you don't know the manufacturer and don't have a schematic. You'll have to do it the hard way.
> First I would look at the Junction Block (JB) under the dash. If you're lucky a pimple faced kid installed the system and instead of making a good connection, he just pushed a wire into a fuse socket and called it good. If you see something like this it could be the power source for the system. Pull the wire out and see if this kills the alarm. If it still works you probably killed some other accessory. Reconnect the wire.
> Hopefully you can find the brain box for the alarm. If it has a connector, use a meter and check for 12VDC at any contact. (put one lead on the contact and connect the other lead to a good ground point). Power to the system should be hot all the time so you shouldn't have to turn the key to on. When you detect 12VDC trace the wire for that contact to it's power source. Most likely the source will be the Junction Block (fuse panel) under the dash or the Power Distribution Center under the hood next to the battery. They may have even spliced it to another "always hot" power wire. Wherever the power source is disconnect the wire and check the alarm again. Don't get anxious and cut the wire. You may have to reconnect it.
> Be aware I have read threads on this and other forums where guys have messed with alarm systems and only created more problems for themselves. Especially where systems are integrated into the Body Control Module or Powertrain Control Computer circuits.
> You said you're getting 13+ volts at the battery with the engine running. Every car I've ever checked read 14+ VDC. You might want to pull the alternator and have it bench tested. Take the battery with you and have it load tested. That's the only true test for a battery. Where? Autozone, Pepboys, Sears, etc. While you're at it make sure the ground connection for the negative battery lead is tight and not corroded. It's probably grounded to the engine block. Even if it looks ok, I would loosen it up and retighten it. Hopefully someone with some experience on alarms will chime in and tell you exactly what you should do and waste my 15 minutes. Keep in touch.
Ed_Strong
08-14-2006, 11:42 PM
OK, after about 8 hours I went back at it and as soon as I opened the door the same deal started again... alarm took over and all the same symptoms as explained before. I dissabled the alarm (ign key ON alarm switch ON, then OFF, ign key OFF). Proceeded to crank the engine and it cranked fine and the engine started as if nothing were wrong, maybe the battery is OK after all... but why the heck does the alarm keep on reactivating itself?
That was the last of the good news.
Since it was dark I could see the time clock flickering and the engine was lightly stumbling, then the Check Engine light came on as I tried to increase the RPMs. So I turn on the parking lights/dash lights to get a look at the charging gauge and the whole dash and parking lights started to flicker, and get weak and bright, weak and bright, also at the same time the charging gauge was fluctuating continuously. Oddly enough, the headboard console display (the one with the temp and heading display on the ceiling) is lighting up fine, no flickering or weakening at all.
I let it run for a few mins and shut it off, then started it again without issues. So I shut it off and did the Key-on cycle code readout and got the following codes:
12 Battery Disconnect - Direct battery input to PCM was disconnected within the last 50 Key-on cycles.
32 EGR Solenoid Circuit - An open or shorted condition detected in the EGR Transducer Solenoid circuit.
or EGR System Failure - Required change in air/fuel ratio not detected during diagnostic test.
35 Low Speed Fan CTRL Relay Circiuts - An open or shorted condition detected in the radiator fan low speed relay circuit.
or High Speed Fan CTRL Relay Circiuts - An open or shorted condition detected in the radiator fan high speed relay circuit.
41 Generator Field Not Switching Properly - An open or shorted condition detected in the generator field control circuit.
Im not too woried about the first two, code 12 was setup after I disconnected the battery earlier to try and reset the alarm after the jump start attempt, sorry forgot to mention that on the first post. And code 32 is been there since we own the van, I refuse to pay my local Auto parts $180 for a new EGR and Transducer Solenoid.
Now I'm not sure about code 35, that could be a complication from the mess going on. But how about code 41? Is that referring to the alternator, telling me that it's malfunctioning? what is the generator field control circuit?
That was the last of the good news.
Since it was dark I could see the time clock flickering and the engine was lightly stumbling, then the Check Engine light came on as I tried to increase the RPMs. So I turn on the parking lights/dash lights to get a look at the charging gauge and the whole dash and parking lights started to flicker, and get weak and bright, weak and bright, also at the same time the charging gauge was fluctuating continuously. Oddly enough, the headboard console display (the one with the temp and heading display on the ceiling) is lighting up fine, no flickering or weakening at all.
I let it run for a few mins and shut it off, then started it again without issues. So I shut it off and did the Key-on cycle code readout and got the following codes:
12 Battery Disconnect - Direct battery input to PCM was disconnected within the last 50 Key-on cycles.
32 EGR Solenoid Circuit - An open or shorted condition detected in the EGR Transducer Solenoid circuit.
or EGR System Failure - Required change in air/fuel ratio not detected during diagnostic test.
35 Low Speed Fan CTRL Relay Circiuts - An open or shorted condition detected in the radiator fan low speed relay circuit.
or High Speed Fan CTRL Relay Circiuts - An open or shorted condition detected in the radiator fan high speed relay circuit.
41 Generator Field Not Switching Properly - An open or shorted condition detected in the generator field control circuit.
Im not too woried about the first two, code 12 was setup after I disconnected the battery earlier to try and reset the alarm after the jump start attempt, sorry forgot to mention that on the first post. And code 32 is been there since we own the van, I refuse to pay my local Auto parts $180 for a new EGR and Transducer Solenoid.
Now I'm not sure about code 35, that could be a complication from the mess going on. But how about code 41? Is that referring to the alternator, telling me that it's malfunctioning? what is the generator field control circuit?
Ed_Strong
08-15-2006, 12:00 PM
Update: just went back to the van and alarm is still taking control over it self, I dissabled it the same way as before and cranked the engine... it cranked and started fine (battery must be in good shape). While I let the engine warm up I start tracing the wires from the little power switch under the dash to the power source and found the alarm's central brain. It's a small black rectangle (about 5"L x 3"W x 1"H) and it reads on top Pursuit Security System - Pro 9243 I googled that and this is as far as I got:
http://www.junik.lv/~meg/new/pursuit.htm
Not too much there but that is their logo on top of my system central brain box.
The box has three small two wire connectors plugging in from one of the 3"wide sides, one of them goes to the little power switch under the dash, the second goes to the little red light on the dash, and the third is either for the horn/loud speaker under the hood or it's the main power wires I'm not sure cause I couldn't trace those.
Also there's a big wide connector that looks like it's from the factory and it's like 3"long with alot of wires (maybe 8 or 10 wires) plugging in to the long side of the box.
Could it be maybe this is in fact a factory installed alarm system and they replaced the keyless entry FOB switches with the stupid little switch under the dash after they lost or broke the keyless entry FOB switches?
Can you guys shed some light? please help... I don't want to start yanking wire off and make matters worse. I'm affraid to disconnect it and loose power to everything for good
http://www.junik.lv/~meg/new/pursuit.htm
Not too much there but that is their logo on top of my system central brain box.
The box has three small two wire connectors plugging in from one of the 3"wide sides, one of them goes to the little power switch under the dash, the second goes to the little red light on the dash, and the third is either for the horn/loud speaker under the hood or it's the main power wires I'm not sure cause I couldn't trace those.
Also there's a big wide connector that looks like it's from the factory and it's like 3"long with alot of wires (maybe 8 or 10 wires) plugging in to the long side of the box.
Could it be maybe this is in fact a factory installed alarm system and they replaced the keyless entry FOB switches with the stupid little switch under the dash after they lost or broke the keyless entry FOB switches?
Can you guys shed some light? please help... I don't want to start yanking wire off and make matters worse. I'm affraid to disconnect it and loose power to everything for good
Ed_Strong
08-17-2006, 07:42 PM
More news:
Yesterday I disabled the system by unplugging it at its main wiring connector (the big long one). And it worked for me, no more alarms taking over and killing the electrical system... the engine started right up and ran OK, all instruments and dash controls worked fine. But now I have to lock/unlock the doors manually! (no biggie). I had to stop there cause it started raining hard and it didn't let up till late at nite.
Well, today I cleaned up all the battery cable connections (both ends of both cables), and the ground strap to the engine to make sure. Then checked the battery with the multimeter and it was holding up at 12.50V by itself. Then, with the engine running it went up to 13.64V and kept fluctuating between that and 13.72V at idle. I turned on the high beam headlights and it went down to 13.60 fluctuating between that and 13.66V at idle and 13.66 to 13.80V at a steady 2000RPM.
Then I went crazy and turned up everything I could think of... High Beams, Radio, both front and back A/Cs on high, Dome Lights, Wipers, Hazard Lights and it stayed at 13.66 to 13.80V at 2000RPM, but went down to 13.02V to 13.20V when at idle. So what do you guys think?
I'm not sure if it's safe to start driving it yet!
Yesterday I disabled the system by unplugging it at its main wiring connector (the big long one). And it worked for me, no more alarms taking over and killing the electrical system... the engine started right up and ran OK, all instruments and dash controls worked fine. But now I have to lock/unlock the doors manually! (no biggie). I had to stop there cause it started raining hard and it didn't let up till late at nite.
Well, today I cleaned up all the battery cable connections (both ends of both cables), and the ground strap to the engine to make sure. Then checked the battery with the multimeter and it was holding up at 12.50V by itself. Then, with the engine running it went up to 13.64V and kept fluctuating between that and 13.72V at idle. I turned on the high beam headlights and it went down to 13.60 fluctuating between that and 13.66V at idle and 13.66 to 13.80V at a steady 2000RPM.
Then I went crazy and turned up everything I could think of... High Beams, Radio, both front and back A/Cs on high, Dome Lights, Wipers, Hazard Lights and it stayed at 13.66 to 13.80V at 2000RPM, but went down to 13.02V to 13.20V when at idle. So what do you guys think?
I'm not sure if it's safe to start driving it yet!
RIP
08-18-2006, 02:34 PM
I would press on. The alternator may not be producing what I'm calling a normal 14+ volts but, it appears it can handle a sizeable load. If it rears it's ugly head again, get the alternator bench tested and get the battery load tested. That way you know the major players in the system are good or bad and can press from there. As for the door locks can you figure out the input and output for them at the brain box connector and shunt it?
BTW - If the battery is over 4 years old it might be time to change it anyway.
BTW - If the battery is over 4 years old it might be time to change it anyway.
Ed_Strong
08-18-2006, 07:53 PM
Yeah, right now the battery is we over 4 years old, but a new car battery purchase is well out of the budget, so it's gonna have to wait ( hope it holds).
As far as the door locks go, I sure can't figure out the input and outputs, but the brain box wide connector has 2 homemade fuses (can tell they're not factory issued) right at the wide connector input to the brain box... One of them has to be for the power source and the other who knows.
I guess I could re-connect the wide connector and then try with the fuses removed and/or alternate them on and off the wire and see if that helps with the dorr locks. What do you think the other fuse could be for?
As far as the door locks go, I sure can't figure out the input and outputs, but the brain box wide connector has 2 homemade fuses (can tell they're not factory issued) right at the wide connector input to the brain box... One of them has to be for the power source and the other who knows.
I guess I could re-connect the wide connector and then try with the fuses removed and/or alternate them on and off the wire and see if that helps with the dorr locks. What do you think the other fuse could be for?
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