God only exists because I say he/she/they exist. So, who truly has more power?

I am in sole control of his existence.


I mean, isn't it odd, the relationship we have with God; we worship him, yet he depends on us to survive.





Also, when I say "me/I", I mean mankind in general. -I'm cocky, but not that cocky.

I think the fundamental flaw in your thinking is the assumption that God needs humanity. If you think that then you have essentially declared God a construct of human society and that he never exisited anyway. A god that can create the Universe don't need shit from you.

I think what a lot of people arguing against the existence of a God kind of skew is that I don't think the Bible or any other religious text specifically states that God needs humans to worship him, he'd just like them too. Its a gesture giving humans free will to believe or not to believe but for those who "see the way to him" or what have you there is the reward of eternal happiness after life on Earth.

For the record I am mostly an agnostic with little to no belief whatsoever in any organized religion.

interesting topic, and one that I have to agree with Albany.

If people did not talk about God, it would end up as never there in the first place. Thus making it true that he needs us for us to believe he exists. Now on the other hand, if God is the almighty being we seet him up to be, then he/she/it wouldn't give two flying hoots what we think , which could also be the case since so much crap is happening on our planet and yet it does not intervene to stop the bullshit and set us straight. Thats some parent if you ask me letting your children do whatever the hell they want and getting themselves killed over crap.

But thats just me and my :2cents:


TS out

If people did not talk about God, it would end up as never there in the first place. Thus making it true that he needs us for us to believe he exists.

I don't really see that. Going on the belief that God exists, there doesn't need to be a human alive that is even aware of that for God to exist. If you don't believe that God, as defined as the all powerful, exists then the entire discussion is moot, doesn't matter what anyone thinks. Like I said, if you believe that God only exists because humanity believes he does then you've essentially declared God doesn't exist.

Now on the other hand, if God is the almighty being we seet him up to be, then he/she/it wouldn't give two flying hoots what we think

I'd have to say that sounds like another flawed bit of thinking, at least in the context of established religious doctrine. Just because God is all powerful doesn't mean God doesn't give a fuck, power and apathy are not one in the same.

which could also be the case since so much crap is happening on our planet and yet it does not intervene to stop the bullshit and set us straight. Thats some parent if you ask me letting your children do whatever the hell they want and getting themselves killed over crap.

As I understand it the relationship of God/Earth/Humans is something like Earth is the trial round for the individual, we are put here to see how we act and depending on how we do we are judged to be worthy or not and sorted out into Heaven or Hell accordingly. Naturally not everyone is good so bad things do happen however if God were to step in and fix things it would nulify the purpose of this trial.

What about Gods from other religions?

What if Zeus from the long forgotten ancient Greek mythology literally comes down and begins to judge us. Where would the beliefs of your current God go then?



Our Gods need us to survive, otherwise they will cease to exist like Zeus.

see, you're using the wrong words. simple english classes help here.

existence is not based on beliefs. i dont exist cause you believe i do. heck, youve never seen me. i could be ghost. in all honesty, i could be anything, but i do exist don't i?

so therefore, duh, He doesn't need our beliefs for Him to exist.As you said, no matter who it is, when someone comes for judgement, they still exist whether you believed in them or not.

Also, TS, come on man. God gave us freewill to choose what happens. there is no interference. it has nothing to do with how we act He'll punish us then. It's all for later. kinda like karma but instead of it happening overtime, it'll just happen when we die or He comes back down.

As I understand it the relationship of God/Earth/Humans is something like Earth is the trial round for the individual, we are put here to see how we act and depending on how we do we are judged to be worthy or not and sorted out into Heaven or Hell accordingly. Naturally not everyone is good so bad things do happen however if God were to step in and fix things it would nulify the purpose of this trial.
Yes but in the bible he did help with humans causes in some cases. he didnt totally let them scrap for theirselves.


I think the fundamental flaw in your thinking is the assumption that God needs humanity. If you think that then you have essentially declared God a construct of human society and that he never exisited anyway.
think about how many dif forms of religion have come and gone just to be replaced with new ones. Religion is a way to explain the unexplainable since us humans have to have a answer for everything. or you can think of it as for all of humanity we have been worshipping the same god just in dif ways. depending on the times depends on how we needed toworship him. Paganism is the oldest form of documented religion
me i believe in a god just not one that is recoginized by any certain church

existence is not based on beliefs. i dont exist cause you believe i do. heck, youve never seen me. i could be ghost. in all honesty, i could be anything, but i do exist don't i?



Do you?
Maybe you don't exist, maybe you are nothing more than a small part of a very large and complex construct of his imagination.
Or my imagination.
Reality is still a heavly disproven theory.

I think the difference between my thinking and yours is that you seem to know He exist, that there is no doubt, and that He is definitely some entity.

However, from an empirical point of view, He does not. He is not a definite person or thing you can point and say "Hey, thats God". He doesn't leave any evidence of his existence (such as your posts) either.

He is a belief, and exists only through our beliefs.


Also, by evidence I mean irrefutable evidence. I don't want "God created Adam and Eve, and the world, and his "evidence" is all around us" type of stuff.

there's no evidence of anything and moppie, dont go off topic. you could argue anything with that.

as i was saying, thats why its a belief. but it doesnt make you more powerful. maybe here it could, your influence if you gain it. but youre not at sucha level as the bleif in Him is therefore this is a mute point. in order to be more powerful youd have to win over millions. and whether the potential is out there or not, it wont make you more powerful. considering, thats what this thread actually is about...base don title.

but existence is not based on belief. it's an actuality and not a technicality, therefore no matter what we believe, if He's there, He's there.

and what i left out was, what you mean is that His existence here on earth.

Yes but in the bible he did help with humans causes in some cases. he didnt totally let them scrap for theirselves.

The validity of the Bible aside, this topic was about Albany vs God in terms of power, therefore other religions and what supposedly happened thousands of years ago doesn't factor into it. Stay on topic.

think about how many dif forms of religion have come and gone just to be replaced with new ones. Religion is a way to explain the unexplainable since us humans have to have a answer for everything. or you can think of it as for all of humanity we have been worshipping the same god just in dif ways. depending on the times depends on how we needed toworship him. Paganism is the oldest form of documented religion
me i believe in a god just not one that is recoginized by any certain church

Thank you for that rambling, pointless literary abortion. Religion is a way to explain that which is not understood? Thanks Captain Obvious, tell your buddy Major Understatement that I said Hi.

Anyway, like Damien and I are trying to say:

If you think God only exists because you believe he does then you are basically saying he doesn't exist, therefore the question "Who is more powerful?" is totally moot. God would like you to worship him, he doesn't need you to though.

To believe in a God, as generally defined as an all powerful universe creator God, means you don't need any evidence, thats the whole point, thats why its called Faith. You're having faith that he is there despite the fact that you can't prove he is. If you need more than that then I would question how much you believed in him in the first place.

alright brah, the first thing i posted was in reference to a statement that you yourself had made.
the second one whether it was a rambling, pointless literary abortion was still a opinion. i didn't put it there for someone to turn around be a sarcastic prick. if you dont like it or agree with it or even find it to be obvious then thats fine by me. but talkin shit or being sarcastic like that is not called for.
To believe in a God, as generally defined as an all powerful universe creator God, means you don't need any evidence, thats the whole point, thats why its called Faith. You're having faith that he is there despite the fact that you can't prove he is. If you need more than that then I would question how much you believed in him in the first place.and you want to talk about me being captain obvious and shit

The validity of the Bible aside, this topic was about Albany vs God in terms of power, therefore other religions and what supposedly happened thousands of years ago doesn't factor into it. Stay on topic.
in case you dont remember i wasnt the first one to bring up other religions

there's no evidence of anything and moppie, dont go off topic. you could argue anything with that.



Rubbish, you made a metaphyiscal argument for his existance, and I countered it.

You claim existance is real, I say what is reality?
How can you really know anything exists?


Broke_as_**** You do realise the term "God" is very general, there are lots of monothiestic religions in the world.

Thank you for that rambling, pointless literary abortion. Religion is a way to explain that which is not understood? Thanks Captain Obvious, tell your buddy Major Understatement that I said Hi.




That rather pointless fecal outburst was rather uncalled for.
I suggest you get such future thoughts to yourself.

Broke_as_**** You do realise the term "God" is very general, there are lots of monothiestic religions in the world.

Which is why I stated:

"as generally defined as an all powerful universe creator God'.

Which is a bit beside the point because I know of no religion that tells of a singular god that also tells you that that god needs your worship to exist. I know of no religion anywhere that states any kind of divine, holy or otherwise otherworldly power will cease to exist if you don't believe in them/it.


You claim existance is real, I say what is reality?
How can you really know anything exists?

Then what would be the point of talking about anything? To put faith in just about any remotely mainstream religion you are pretty much assuming that certain things, like the existence of "reality", are fact. If you toss out such assumptions then there is not really any point to anything. So then, to talk about anything you have to start with a foundation of something, namely that reality is generally defined as what you experience interacting with whats around you, "you" being a physical object subject to given restrictions of a physical world. If you want to toss out that assumption then nothing can be said of anything because there is no foundation for anything.

Then what would be the point of talking about anything? To put faith in just about any remotely mainstream religion you are pretty much assuming that certain things, like the existence of "reality", are fact. If you toss out such assumptions then there is not really any point to anything. So then, to talk about anything you have to start with a foundation of something, namely that reality is generally defined as what you experience interacting with whats around you, "you" being a physical object subject to given restrictions of a physical world. If you want to toss out that assumption then nothing can be said of anything because there is no foundation for anything.



Now that was well said.
A proper reply to my claims :)

Its faith my friend. If you say he/she doesnt exist, fine, but I would say its a big mistake.

thats why i said you can use that for anything. while thats truly all philosphizing is...try not to go broad. just shows you're arguing for no reason.

God is not general. Now god is general.

Also, TS, come on man. God gave us freewill to choose what happens. there is no interference. it has nothing to do with how we act He'll punish us then. It's all for later. kinda like karma but instead of it happening overtime, it'll just happen when we die or He comes back down.As I read that I find that to be quite contradictory. Gives us the free will to choose, but if you don't choose correctly, I will deal with you later. Oh please. Give me a break. I love playing devils advocate in these things. Besides to me there is only one God and he issues my paychecks.:lol: Hes the one that ownes me.

Which is a bit beside the point because I know of no religion that tells of a singular god that also tells you that that god needs your worship to exist. I know of no religion anywhere that states any kind of divine, holy or otherwise otherworldly power will cease to exist if you don't believe in them/it.It doesn't have to be said, Its funny but the definition of religion is the group of beliefs or attitudes of an object, whether real or imagined, a person, or system of thought considered to be supernatural, sacred or divine and the moral codes, practices, values institutions and rituals associated with such belief or system of thought. It has taken many forms in various cultures and individuals. The word religion itself comes from the latin word religio which means reverence for the gods. and its funny that someone brought up Zeus earlier from the Greek mythology (or at that time, the Greek Religion). That religion cease to exist cause they stopped worshiping those Gods and believed in something else. Now a days its considered a myth. Much like I consider one God and his son and the holy ghost. A myth. Someone mentioned a long time ago that "God is dead, knowledged killed him" and its so true. I just don't see his coming or the rapture. I used to believe in something higher, but with the constant bullshit I see, the hunger, the wars, etc. I cannot in good conscience believe there is something greater than us and allowing such things to occur. We are our own destiny and we are in charge of our own actions, not God. Therefore to answer the original posters question of "Who is more powerful, Me or God?" I say Me.

TS out

+1 i got to agree with TS

I used to believe in something higher, but with the constant bullshit I see, the hunger, the wars, etc. I cannot in good conscience believe there is something greater than us and allowing such things to occur. We are our own destiny and we are in charge of our own actions, not God. Therefore to answer the original posters question of "Who is more powerful, Me or God?" I say Me.

One way to take this train of thought is:

You belive in a God --> But bad things happen --> So God must not be intervening --> You are more powerful than God

I don't exactly see how that makes you more powerful than God because isn't exactly competing with you.

Which is a bit beside the point because you said that you don't believe in a God. Therefore your answer to "Who is more powerful?" is nulified because you are comparing yourself against something you don't believe to exist, or at least isn't exerting influence on the world.

One way to take this train of thought is:

You belive in a God --> But bad things happen --> So God must not be intervening --> You are more powerful than God

I don't exactly see how that makes you more powerful than God because isn't exactly competing with you.

Which is a bit beside the point because you said that you don't believe in a God. Therefore your answer to "Who is more powerful?" is nulified because you are comparing yourself against something you don't believe to exist, or at least isn't exerting influence on the world.Actually if you want to classify my way of thought, it would be something like this...

I used to believe in the higher powers, --> knowledge and experience open my eyes, --> I stopped believing and acknowledging it no need to believe it exists--> I am more powerful since I am in charge of my own destiny.

But you are right, by saying I am more powerful, it's an indication that I have to be more powerful than/over something else, thereby acknowledging it does exists. Which brings us all back to the original posters question. :)

TS out

My personal beliefs aside...

The fact that bad things happen does not go to prove that there is no God. It only goes to show that human beings are capable of great evil, just as they are capable of great good. The search for meaning and a higher power would certainly have to be more in depth than "people go hungry, therefore God does not exist". You're attempting to answer an age old question of the deepest sort with grade school logic and reasoning. Come now, surely you can find a better reason than that. If the occurence of bad things disproves God, what does the occurence of good things prove?

Since you do not know who god is, and cannot touch nor alter god, I would say you have absolutely NO power over god whatsoever.

Therefore, by default, you cannot be more powerful. For if he does not exist, you are both even.

Actually if god doesnt exist then we do have more power over him because he is a creation of humanity imagination. We can make him out to be however we want.
But if god is real then we have no power over him only our dillusions.
This is a open ended question for which there will never be a answer to till we die and then we will find out whom is right and who is wrong. Until then though this was a good debate of a question. I like everyones answers

If something exists only in your mind, it must exert some kind of power over you, for you are thinking about it. It affects you and your thinking when it is brought up in conversation.

You cannot affect it in any manner, however, only in your mind.

So, do you have power over what your brain thinks, or does it have control over your body?

So, do you have power over what your brain thinks, or does it have control over your body?

Somewhat of an odd question but then I'm a fan of the:

Brain + Body + Mind = 1

Your brain is part of your body and you are your body. Just like an army is its soldiers, guided by a general who acts as the brain but really the general is just another soldier, just another part of the army.

Many good points brought up. I'm going to attempt to answer this from a "Christian theological" perspective.

Let's say you rent a house. In that rent agreement, the owner has no right to enter or even have any authority over the house. The tenant even has the right to give up that authority. Let's say the owner has 1,000 special forces at his command. For arguments sake, the original tenants gave up all rights to that lease to a drug dealer who was also pimping and had about 50 other people in that has doing no good. Now the owner, because of the lease agreement, who values law about anything else, refuses to use the special forces guys at his command to stop the madness. There is a clause however in the lease agreement, if any one in the rented house asks for help, he may help them, but only that person since he cannot infringe open the rights of all individuals to make their own decisions on how that live in that house.

God created man to rule over earth. All authority and power was given to Adam. When Adam ate the apple, he surrendered those rights and powers to Lucifer and transferred the title of prince of the earth to Lucifer. Man still has the right to do whatever he wants. Believe or not believe that God or even Lucifer does or does not exist. Any one has the right to accept or reject the help and friendship of God. Crap happens because of the evil in each man's heart. God refuses to break His own laws since it would make Him unholy and just as vile as the fallen angels. Mankind can ask for His help at which times He does intervene for us but may not always be in the way we want or can see.

So the OP does have power over God from a Christian perspective but only limited to allowing God to work or not work in his life. But if they were to get into the Octagon together...he doesn't stand a chance.

If the occurence of bad things disproves God, what does the occurence of good things prove?
Excellent Statement!

My personal beliefs aside...

The fact that bad things happen does not go to prove that there is no God. It only goes to show that human beings are capable of great evil, just as they are capable of great good. The search for meaning and a higher power would certainly have to be more in depth than "people go hungry, therefore God does not exist". You're attempting to answer an age old question of the deepest sort with grade school logic and reasoning. Come now, surely you can find a better reason than that. If the occurence of bad things disproves God, what does the occurence of good things prove?

There's a fatal flaw in your argument, in that you assume that all "bad" things that happen on this planet are caused by human beings. How then you would you explain a massive tsunami that kills 250,000 people or the far greater cataclysmic events that have destroyed millions of non-human lives in the past. If there is a god, that god is either not all powerful or not good. If it were good and all powerful, it would not have created a physical universe where completely innocent people are killed by "natural" forces.

Back on topic, the IDEA of god is the only way in which a god will ever exist in our reality, at least until the supposed judgement day. Therefore, we DO have more power than god since we can exert our own influences on the world. The Christian god at least is forbidden from intervening with human choice and cannot directly alter our lives in any way, shape, or form. When people make choices based on their religious beliefs, they are still exerting their own influence, not that of "god". Therefore, we have all the power.

You're right, I should have used the word evil instead of the word bad. Since we're on the subject of fatal flaws...

If there is a god, that god is either not all powerful or not good. If it were good and all powerful, it would not have created a physical universe where completely innocent people are killed by "natural" forces.

Saying that God isn't good because you don't understand things OR because you view certain things as bad or evil doesn't disprove His existence. For you to make judgements on what kind of universe an all powerful God should create is quite a stretch of your logical abilitiy. And are all people who are killed by "natural" forces completely innocent? And if those forces are "natural" why blame it on the "supernatural"?

As I read that I find that to be quite contradictory. Gives us the free will to choose, but if you don't choose correctly, I will deal with you later. Oh please. Give me a break. I love playing devils advocate in these things. Besides to me there is only one God and he issues my paychecks.:lol: Hes the one that ownes me.
You misunderstand the intent of the gift of freewill. We were given it to govern the earth and see to its fruitfullness as we best see fit not as God best see fits. Anything that creates well being, growth or prosperity by the hands of man is pleasing to God. He created us for that purposes, to grow as we see fit not as He does. Unfortunately, man has chosen to do those things which destroy and it's those deeds, the ones we were never intended for that man is punished for.

Sorry if I'm fading off topic.

Let's say God is real and the option of "free-will" is removed from the table. At this cenario, God would be real depending on your defination of "god." Is God an all knowing and powerful being, a being who is powerful and evolved like Zeus, or just an influential being in the cosmos? All three options would make the OP the weaker but the latter two would give the OP the opportunity to become more powerful than "god."

You're right, I should have used the word evil instead of the word bad. Since we're on the subject of fatal flaws...



Saying that God isn't good because you don't understand things OR because you view certain things as bad or evil doesn't disprove His existence. For you to make judgements on what kind of universe an all powerful God should create is quite a stretch of your logical abilitiy.

Stretch of my logical ability? What are you talking about? A being who would create an universe is responsible for all of the possible physical outcomes of that universe. Therefore, the god who potentially created our universe is responsible for the tsunami, for example. If that god knew that his universe would cause the destruction of innocent life and he proceeded with that knowledge, then he is not good. If he was incapable of creating an universe where natural forces would not destory innocent life, then he is not all powerful. It's simple logic. If p then q.

And are all people who are killed by "natural" forces completely innocent? And if those forces are "natural" why blame it on the "supernatural"?

So what you're saying is that all of the 250,000+ that died in the tsunami deserved to die? Because they were "evil" as you would say? That's just plain ridiculous. As I already stated, the "supernatural" force that created the universe is responsible for the natural forces, thus the blame for those deaths would fall upon that being, leading back to the impossibility of "god" being simultaneously good and all powerful.

What if God as Creator is good. What if He handed responsibility and power over the earth to man who had the ability at the first meeting to keep evil out or let it into earth. What if that man gave the right for evil/sin to enter into earth and as a result, the earth's been slowly decaying from that actions of sin in the world. This would be because man's physical sin has supernatural repercussions than in turn acts upon the natural in a negative way. If this were the case, fault would lie with man's acceptance of evil from the beggining and not God.

What if God as Creator is good. What if He handed responsibility and power over the earth to man who had the ability at the first meeting to keep evil out or let it into earth. What if that man gave the right for evil/sin to enter into earth and as a result, the earth's been slowly decaying from that actions of sin in the world. This would be because man's physical sin has supernatural repercussions than in turn acts upon the natural in a negative way. If this were the case, fault would lie with man's acceptance of evil from the beggining and not God.If that is the case then what of the statement God created Man in his own image. If man can carry out good and evil deeds and we are in his own image, thus God himself is not only good but also evil, which might explain all the crap that happens in the world. Also, if we are in his own image, then by default we are also gods in our own right and thus are our own makers of our destiny. But thats for another topic. I believe due to our own insecurity, we have to believe in something greater than ourselves and thus the concept of God was created. We therefore created him not the other way around. Since we created the concept of God we can control that concepts destiny. If we don't believe in that concept then it does not exist. therefore we are more powerful.

TS out

If that is the case then what of the statement God created Man in his own image. If man can carry out good and evil deeds and we are in his own image, thus God himself is not only good but also evil, which might explain all the crap that happens in the world. Also, if we are in his own image, then by default we are also gods in our own right and thus are our own makers of our destiny. But thats for another topic. I believe due to our own insecurity, we have to believe in something greater than ourselves and thus the concept of God was created. We therefore created him not the other way around. Since we created the concept of God we can control that concepts destiny. If we don't believe in that concept then it does not exist. therefore we are more powerful.

TS outBut there's is a problem with your arguments, my aruments and everyone's argument in this thread. Every singler person missed it. We are just thinking. Thoughts are not tangible proofs for or against the existance of God. So what are we left with? Choice. The choice to exercise our faith in a Creator or something else. Therefore, it is impossible to determine if the OP is more or less possible than God since we cannot prove/disprove through philosophy that there is a God. I'd add some other things but it would be off-topic.

But there's is a problem with your arguments, my aruments and everyone's argument in this thread. Every singler person missed it. We are just thinking. Thoughts are not tangible proofs for or against the existance of God. So what are we left with? Choice. The choice to exercise our faith in a Creator or something else. Therefore, it is impossible to determine if the OP is more or less possible than God since we cannot prove/disprove through philosophy that there is a God

Well, I would argue that we should operate under the assumption that god does not exist until we have any sort of evidence otherwise. If we do so, god only exists as a mental construct, in the abstract world. Since we, as a race, ultimately have power over our minds and thoughts, one could conclude that we as humans really do have more power than god. I guess that's pretty much the same conclusion as Twospirits just came to looking back at his argument.

I was drawing no conclusions, only asking questions. I didn't call the tsunami victims evil, I only asked if they were innocent. Take into account what qualifies as innocent in your eyes may not qualify in the eyes of an omnipotent God. Like I said before, my thoughts in this thread do not always represent my personal beliefs, I just like for people to think. Anyhow, moving on...

You are saying that if God allows bad things to happen he is either A) Evil or B) NOT all powerful. But if God created good and evil, then wouldn't it stand to reason (as much reason as can be had in a topic such as this) that God is neither good nor evil? It's the same as time. If God created time, He is not contained within it. He has no beginning and no end, because he exists outside the confines of time, space, matter, even good and evil. You say God isn't good, I say perhaps He doesn't need to be.

Well, I would argue that we should operate under the assumption that god does not exist until we have any sort of evidence otherwise. ...

That looks like a lose-lose position. Some philosopher dude a long time ago argued a point something like this;

God exists, You believe, , you win.
you do not believe, you lose.


God does not exist, You believe, , nothing happens.
you do not believe, nothing happens.

Logically, That assumption is the losing one.

Another point to ponder, as far as who has more power, if it were constantly demonstrated to you that you are but a piece of dust in the wind, and you knew God was more powerful, you wouldn't be able to be evaluated, because you would no longer have to make a choice. It is your beliefs and actions that warrant salvation, not words or random thoughts.

You know what could be funny is that in a few thousand yr (give or take) people could be having this discusion about a whole diffrent type of god with diffrent religions than what we have now. Just like thousands of yrs back when our god wasnt around and it was Zeus.

That looks like a lose-lose position. Some philosopher dude a long time ago argued a point something like this;

God exists, You believe, , you win.
you do not believe, you lose.


God does not exist, You believe, , nothing happens.
you do not believe, nothing happens.

Logically, That assumption is the losing one.


So what you're saying is that we should believe in god out of fear? Despite the fact that no evidence for that god exists. There wouldn't be a bit of logic in an argument like that.

You know what could be funny is that in a few thousand yr (give or take) people could be having this discusion about a whole diffrent type of god with diffrent religions than what we have now. Just like thousands of yrs back when our god wasnt around and it was Zeus.

True that. Just highlights the triviality of religion...

Well, I would argue that we should operate under the assumption that god does not exist until we have any sort of evidence otherwise. If we do so, god only exists as a mental construct, in the abstract world. Since we, as a race, ultimately have power over our minds and thoughts, one could conclude that we as humans really do have more power than god. I guess that's pretty much the same conclusion as Twospirits just came to looking back at his argument.
True...but how can a finite being truly grasp or prove to themselves the existance of an infinite being?

I hate to say this coming from a very italian religious family but i dont know about god and these things that happened on the past, sure he was a real figure in the past and then died,why was it this guy who just became special all of a sudden and was called "god"?..But then again I wonder how the universe was created and jeesh its the most confusing and controversial talk somebody can have...

All i know is that science can only take you back so far, and that there has to be some kind of higher power.

( i am a confirmed ELCA Lutheran)

All i know is that science can only take you back so far, and that there has to be some kind of higher power.

( i am a confirmed ELCA Lutheran)

That's a bold assertion to make. On what grounds do you make such an assertion?

How can anything exist with out a higher power? You can't make something from nothing. But not only exist but thrive. The science behind there being a God is greater than almost anything. The numerical stand point of this is outrageous. If any one thing (the earth being a fraction off would throw earth so far off course, If earth was closer to the sun or farther from the sun by just a few miles it would be to hot or to cold to live on,the magnetic fields,the atmosphere,what about how sophisticated the human body is. It has it's own way of healing it self or shutting it's self down to survive, What about an insect like a fly or ant? as small as it is, it has a brain it can still think for it's self, it has a heart it has a mouth legs and muscles. And your telling me this all happened out of chance. So for instance say we had all the parts to make up everything on the earth and the solar system. How likely is it that it all just so happens to come together so perfectly. It's like having all the parts to a wrist watch throwing it in the air and when it hits the ground comes together. All the grears and hands in the right place. The links on the band together and have the correct time. You and I both know this would never happen. No matter how many time you through this in the air. What the difference with the whole universe. It's more sophisticated than any old wrist watch.

Also it's been said many time that "if" there is a god why do bad things happen to good and innocent people?
Hello this is earth. Bad things are going to happen. If nothing bad happened then why would you want to go to heven cause everything is perfect here. Nothing bad happens here on earth. The Devil is actively in this world giving you the choice to follow your own ways Gods ways or the Devils ways. It's your pick.
The whole free will thing......
Yes God could of made us love him worship him and all that but it would be real. It's like a pet you could have a pet rock or robot. You can program that robot to say it loves you and worship you. You could have it meet you at the door when you come home. Now compare that to something that has FREEWILL like a puppy (or if your a cat person a cat) it loves you on it's own because it wants to not because you told it to or because it was preprogrammed to love you.

Also it's been said many time that "if" there is a god why do bad things happen to good and innocent people?



I know exactly what you mean. This life is not real. Only a test. The reality is the afterlife. PPl should not question God at all. Its one of our major sin. We are taught to live this life at most obedient to God and second most...PATIENCE! IF you're not rewarded in this life but still pray to God...you will definitely be rewarded in the afterlife because having patience. And when you see the tragedy in the muslim world and see the ppl carrying off dead bodies chanting Allah Akbar (God is Greatest) and for the ppl who make fun of it doesn't understand why they chant. Reason being is that we keep our Dhikr (Rememberance of God) because when you lose a love one , ppl usually tends to lose faith. I've met numerous of ppl who lost faith because they lost there loved ones. This is part of being patience and still be obedient to God and trust in Him. Same goes with your life isn't goin the way you expected to be. I always say, if you're not rewarded in this life , then you'll be rewarded in the afterlife...of course if you dont stray away from the right path.


The Devil is actively in this world giving you the choice to follow your own ways Gods ways or the Devils ways. It's your pick.


More like God is giving you an option and brain for you to use. Devil wouldn't give you choice. The devil is more of an outlaw and do whatever it wants. Possesses your body against your will, whisper in your ears against your will, make you do things against your will and so on.To fight against it is rememberance of God and Fearing Him will lead you the right path and the devil hates that.


This is all based on my beliefs. Im sure some can relate to it and some can't but to each of there own ;)

You are absolutely right on the second part. My mistake. That really what I ment. I did alot of deleting trying to get straight to the point. Thanks for catching me.

You are absolutely right on the second part. My mistake. That really what I ment. I did alot of deleting trying to get straight to the point. Thanks for catching me.


No problem!

Alright, God does exist, their is something out there...

However, who is it?

Christ (well, son of God)?
Brahman?
Allah?
Jehovah?
etc...


To bring this back on topic, these "separate Gods" only exist because we choose to believe in them. Therefore, man is more powerful.
This, specific God, Allah exists because of millions of Muslims. Like-wise, Brahman solely exists because of millions of Hindus, and etc. *

I will agree with you guys that there has to be some higher power. But who is he/she/...it?

Seeing how there are billions following a specific religion (and a specific God), wouldn't you say it is important and relevant to talk about a specific God instead of some completely general and "standard" God?

I am not saying you were being too general, but thats what I think whenever someone says something such as, "the universe is way too complex, and there was only a 1/10000000000000000000000000000000000... chance of us being created."

Yes, I think everybody agrees that something had to design and start it all. But what I am asking is; who specifically? And to bring it to a full circle, who is more powerful? Man, or Jehovah/Allah/Brahma/specific Gods/etc. etc..




* Not exact figures, I know some of you like to scrutinize down to the last mundane and unimportant detail.

So the universe is so spectacular that it must have had a creator? How did this creator, who by definition is even more spectacular than the universe, come from nowhere?

If the universe, man, or a wrist watch can't come from nothing, certainly either can a god.

Before you say "he always was" remember that maybe the universe (in some form) "always was".

So the universe is so spectacular that it must have had a creator? How did this creator, who by definition is even more spectacular than the universe, come from nowhere?

If the universe, man, or a wrist watch can't come from nothing, certainly either can a god.

Before you say "he always was" remember that maybe the universe (in some form) "always was".

Which is a good point. If I understand right the more sophisticated something is the more probable it had to be created by something or someone.
So since god is the most sophisticated of em all then what or who created god?
That is a good question seeing as how things seeing just cant come out of thin air.................i know...............evolution is a good answer

Alright, God does exist, their is something out there...

However, who is it?

Christ (well, son of God)?
Brahman?
Allah?
Jehovah?
etc...


To bring this back on topic, these "separate Gods" only exist because we choose to believe in them. Therefore, man is more powerful.
This, specific God, Allah exists because of millions of Muslims. Like-wise, Brahman solely exists because of millions of Hindus, and etc. *

I will agree with you guys that there has to be some higher power. But who is he/she/...it?

Seeing how there are billions following a specific religion (and a specific God), wouldn't you say it is important and relevant to talk about a specific God instead of some completely general and "standard" God?

I am not saying you were being too general, but thats what I think whenever someone says something such as, "the universe is way too complex, and there was only a 1/10000000000000000000000000000000000... chance of us being created."

Yes, I think everybody agrees that something had to design and start it all. But what I am asking is; who specifically? And to bring it to a full circle, who is more powerful? Man, or Jehovah/Allah/Brahma/specific Gods/etc. etc..




* Not exact figures, I know some of you like to scrutinize down to the last mundane and unimportant detail.


Well it kinda like the old saying "If a tree falls in the forest does it make a noise?"
You chooses to believe or not that doesn't change the fact that he does exist. (in my opinion) You can believe 1+1=4 if you all want but it doesn't change the fact that 1+1=2.
Whom is more powerful? In my opinion God I can't create the universe. Not only that once I die I will not raise from the dead in three days unlike all the other gods. As far as Jesus,the Holy Spirit and God they are all the same just in different forms. Just like water theres a solid (ice) there is gas (steam)and there is liquid (water). Jesus=water,God=ice/solid,and Holy Sprit=steam/gas.

Now if you can't creat something from nothing how is God here? Well I could say he just is or he's always been so on so forth. But all I can say is not to question it. If you don't believe that something bigger stronger and more powerfull exist then why try to argue how God got here. This is where your faith comes in. I would say all Christians would/will struggle with this. But the more you practice in your believe the better your faith gets.
Now let me challenge you to this. ( When I say you I mean anyone that doesn't believe in God) If you don't believe in God prove he doesn't exist. You and I both know you can't do that. But at least reasearch into the existance of God in a non-bias way. Give it an all out test. Find a pastor or priest (preferably one from a larger church)and ask him questions that you can't find the anwsers to. If you have fully reasearched it all out and tried to talk to him and you tried to "find" him and you still feel the same way. At least you know you tried and you proved yourself right. What do you have to loose you all ready have your faith in________,Right? BUT ON THE OTHER HAND!!!!( You have to be honest with youself now.)If you feel that "Well maybe there is something more out there." You should go and find that "something". Believe it or not God want's every one to be with him in heaven. That's why he makes it so easy to get there. He made it to where a quadriplegic or a developmental person can accept him and go to heaven.

How can anything exist with out a higher power? You can't make something from nothing. But not only exist but thrive. The science behind there being a God is greater than almost anything. The numerical stand point of this is outrageous. If any one thing (the earth being a fraction off would throw earth so far off course, If earth was closer to the sun or farther from the sun by just a few miles it would be to hot or to cold to live on,the magnetic fields,the atmosphere,what about how sophisticated the human body is. It has it's own way of healing it self or shutting it's self down to survive, What about an insect like a fly or ant? as small as it is, it has a brain it can still think for it's self, it has a heart it has a mouth legs and muscles. And your telling me this all happened out of chance. So for instance say we had all the parts to make up everything on the earth and the solar system. How likely is it that it all just so happens to come together so perfectly. It's like having all the parts to a wrist watch throwing it in the air and when it hits the ground comes together. All the grears and hands in the right place. The links on the band together and have the correct time. You and I both know this would never happen. No matter how many time you through this in the air. What the difference with the whole universe. It's more sophisticated than any old wrist watch.

I wrote this stuff for part of a book I never finished. I think it completely addresses all of your arguments. If you disagree, tell me why.

The next argument to examine is the idea that the universe and its contents are so complex that they must have been designed by an intelligent being, a.k.a. God. This is the argument of the “Intelligent Design” theory attempting to knock evolution out of classrooms. In 1802, a book called Natural Theology by William Paley came out, which contained a classic version of this argument. Paley states that something as complex as a human appearing through purely natural courses is just as unlikely as putting all the parts of a wristwatch in a box, shaking the box, and having a perfect watch come out. What he failed to recognize is that while you may not produce a watch on the first shake, if you try it enough times, eventually you’ll get a watch. It’s pure probability. No matter how unlikely an event is, if it’s possible, sooner or later it will happen. This is illustrated by the Infinite Monkey Theorem, which states in its most famous form, that if you put an infinite amount of monkeys and an infinite amount of typewriters in a room, they’ll eventually produce the complete works of Shakespeare.
The odds of such a thing happening are admittedly small, but another thing Paley and other proponents of the design argument fail to recognize is the extremely slow process by which evolution works. The argument seems to suggest that the Theory Of Evolution claims that a bunch of microorganisms got together, “shook up the box,” and out popped a fully formed human. Nothing could be further from the truth. Evolution takes place over millions of years, and the changes are so minor that they are completely unrecognizable to the organisms themselves. Only after it’s all over can one look back and actually see the changes. Using the watch analogy, it would be more appropriate to say it’s as if you took a complete watch that was missing one screw in a box, threw the missing screw in with it, and shook the box to see if the screw would fall in the hole. Then you shook it again to see if the screw tightened, just a little. Then shook it again to see if it tightened a little more. Doesn’t seem so unlikely now, does it?
Also, a great many organisms exhibit imperfect designs. If God designed them, and God is perfect, why didn’t he design them perfectly? Their imperfect designs can be easily explained through the process of evolution.

Next on the list are the cosmological arguments, or the “Prime Mover” as postulated by Aristotle. The basis argument, in modern standards, comes from a series of causality. It goes as such: 1. Everything that exists was created or caused by something else. 2. Everything had to come from some original source. 3. The original source had no cause, or caused itself, and is therefore acausal. 4. The acausal source is God. This provides a more serious argument than any of the previous, but I suspect the problem lies in the inadequacy of the human mind to truly comprehend the idea of eternity. People like to think that everything has a beginning and an end, because this is the case in their common experience, and it gives them a neat little package to wrap their minds around. I have to confess to falling for this argument myself the first time I heard it. But as much as people want to believe that everything has a beginning, there is at least one thing that doesn’t: time. Time stretches infinitely behind us and ahead of us, and that alone is proof that not everything has to have a beginning or cause. Just because we are currently incapable of understanding what happened before the Big Bang doesn’t mean that nothing happened before the Big Bang. It simply means that we will have to be content, at least for now, with not knowing. Finally, if you suppose that everything must have a cause, then God must have had a cause too. It’s a paradox on the order of the chicken and the egg, which came first?
There is a theory called Superstring Theory that claims to predict what happened before the Big Bang. According to Superstring Theory, before the Big Bang there was a ten dimensional universe instead of the four-dimensional one (three spatial dimensions and the fourth of time) we observe today. This ten dimensional universe was unstable and split into two pieces, the four-dimensional universe we observe today and a six dimensional universe. This split was so violent it caused the Big Bang. The Big Bang, then, was just a by-product of a much more violent occurrence, the fracturing of the ten dimensional universe. In his book Beyond Einstein Michio Kaku offers this analogy: “Imagine a soap bubble that is vibrating slowly. If the vibrations become strong enough, the soap bubble becomes unstable and fissions into two or more smaller soap bubbles.”

The Anthropic Principle states that we live in a finely tuned universe precisely built for life to exist. If conditions such as distribution of material had been slightly different at the moment of the Big Bang, for example, matter would never have even clumped together to form stars. It’s extremely unlikely that this happened by chance, so God must have caused it. This one’s a bit more difficult to refute, but here’s the answer. The reason why the universe is the way it is, is because if it wasn’t, we wouldn’t be here to ask the question! The very fact that we are here to ask why things are the way they are presupposes that things are such a way that allows us to exist. Statistically speaking, the odds are pretty well stacked against this universe being the one to make it. But it must be understood that statistics only allow a person to understand things as a group and not on an individual basis. If one were to take a group of possible universes and pick one out at random, they would most likely not pick out this one. However, when viewed on an individual basis, the probability of this universe springing into existence isn’t any less than the probability of any other random universe coming to be.
Also, recent discoveries by physicists (Superstring Theory, for example) suggest that our universe is not alone, but among an infinite number of universes all existing at the same time. It’s quite possible that conditions are very different in those other universes and they’re completely inhospitable to life. The reason we inhabit this universe is because it’s the universe that we can inhabit. The processes that led to human life would have occurred in every universe they could possibly occur in, including this one. So although the inhabitable universe may be one-in-a-billion, it’s actually no surprise at all that we live in the inhabitable one.

Basically, you're belief that a natural science theory asserts it happened "by chance" or that it's anything similar to a wristwatch in a box shows your lack of understanding in the idea.

Yes God could of made us love him worship him and all that but it would be real. It's like a pet you could have a pet rock or robot. You can program that robot to say it loves you and worship you. You could have it meet you at the door when you come home. Now compare that to something that has FREEWILL like a puppy (or if your a cat person a cat) it loves you on it's own because it wants to not because you told it to or because it was preprogrammed to love you.

"I cannot believe in a god that wants to be worshipped all the time"

He sounds like an awfully self centered and egotistical guy, doens't he?
And you worship him?
I'm pretty certain that if I proclaimed with complete seriousness that I wanted everyone to worship me under their own free will, you'd not only think me insane, you'd want nothing to do with me.

"I cannot believe in a god that wants to be worshipped all the time"

He sounds like an awfully self centered and egotistical guy, doens't he?
And you worship him?
I'm pretty certain that if I proclaimed with complete seriousness that I wanted everyone to worship me under their own free will, you'd not only think me insane, you'd want nothing to do with me.

I can see your point. But since you can't creat anything to have the ability to love you. You may not understand. If I were to creat something that had the ability. I would want it to love me or at least know the only reason why "they" are here is because I created them. Thats not to much to ask I don't think.
p.s. I'll read your first post here in a second and get back with you.

I wrote this stuff for part of a book I never finished. I think it completely addresses all of your arguments. If you disagree, tell me why.







Basically, you're belief that a natural science theory asserts it happened "by chance" or that it's anything similar to a wristwatch in a box shows your lack of understanding in the idea.


I really don't know where to start. If all these "impossible" things happened just by chance and over an infinity amount of times and time. While one thing was being formed such as the solar system. Now once that was "formed" you have to wait billions and billions of years (because it just happened to form out of chance thats near imposable so that intern would take all those years for trial and error to get it just right)....Now we have earth. Next billions and billions of years we have algae billions and billions of years later we have a fish. All the way up till now. We have humans okay. Don't you think during that whole process of trillions of years of probability one of those thing would have failed or died off. Once that happened the whole system was built on that one system so it couldn't have survived anymore. The reason I say billions and billions and even trillions of years is cause It's all by chance and probability. Like rolling dice eventually you will roll a double 6. But while everyone else is waiting on you to roll your double six. Time doesn't stop and and wait. It's not like the other people your playing with all of a sudden don't exist. Also meaning while the fish are eating the algae. The algae can't wait for the fish to turn into frogs cause the fish would have eaten all the algae. The universe can't thrive or survive on a half developed universe. Also if you believe in the big bang why is it that there are no half man half monkeys around and yet we still have monkeys and man. Why has there not been any proof that a half man and half monkey ever exsited. All I have seen have been the spoofs of a man getting a human skull and an ape skull and using them together to make a half man and half ape. If this really happened there would have been millions of years between half man and half ape so there should be plenty of skeletal remains around to prove this.

There's also I think like one element that can't be duplicated and I think that is carbon. There is something in there that had to of happened by God because it had to of happened in a split second in order for it to come together. Not just happened to of had these elements floating around and accidentally run together and formed.
I saw it in a video of Creation Vs Evolution. I'll see if I can find it and tell you what it said about this fusion thing with the carbon. Pretty intresting anyway.

I hope you can uderstand what I'm saying. Some times I jibber jabber and can't get what I'm really trying to say down.

I really don't know where to start. If all these "impossible" things happened just by chance and over an infinity amount of times and time. While one thing was being formed such as the solar system. Now once that was "formed" you have to wait billions and billions of years (because it just happened to form out of chance thats near imposable so that intern would take all those years for trial and error to get it just right)....Now we have earth. Next billions and billions of years we have algae billions and billions of years later we have a fish. All the way up till now. We have humans okay. Don't you think during that whole process of trillions of years of probability one of those thing would have failed or died off.
If I shoot a basketball from the opposite end of the basketball court and make it to win the game by one point; there are at least a hundred different factors that could have been slightly altered to change the outcome of the shot. What are the odds that it was even going to be the game winning shot? I mean, if anybody on my team had missed 1 more shot during the whole game, my shot would not have won the game even if I made it. If the other team had made one more shot, I would not have won the game. Hell, if that was the case I may not have even taken the shot. If the star player on my team was never born 20 years ago we may have missed several more shots and lost the game. If I was in a car accident before the game then I would have never even had the chance to shoot the ball. If a different sperm than me made it to the egg first..... But all those IFS don't prove that God made the shot for me. All they prove is that the IFS did not happen and I made the shot. The only reason I strayed off topic is because you are severely missing the point with the 1 in a gazillion chance that earth was in the right spot. If it was not in the right spot, you wouldn't be here. But Earth still would.



Meanwhile back on the ranch.... Am I more powerful than God because I have the choice to believe in him? An utterly useless and endless question, but none the less philosophical if you ask me. So for the sake of philosophy, I will interject with my thoughts.

If you have the power to create a god by belief, then I believe said god is more powerful than you. I feel this way because if you truly believe the god is real, your mind is now under the influence of the god you have created. Let's say Mankind did in fact invent christianity. Our belief in God is what controls us. (this is assuming WE/US are believers) In this light, it seems as if it is our belief, which is more powerful than me/you or the god we have created. But that isn't the question you pose. The controlling factor of the question is that the god WILL in fact exist upon belief. I don't imagine you would believe in a god less powerful than you. If you DID, then the question would be stupid.

But now let's say you DON'T believe. By not believeing, in accordance to the original question there would cease to be a God. I'm assuming that is where your question digs deepest. You think that if you have the power to destroy the god, then he is less powerful. But to me, if you destroy the god you destroy yourself. If there is nothing to believe in, what is there? Life and death? Is it amazing to live and die? No it is not. It merely means that you are fortunate. By using your ONLY power (to believe or not to believe) you have destroyed your god and you have destroyed anything which may have been spectacular about your life or pastlife.

This is why I think that the power to eliminate him/her is not an impressive one. When you believe and he is real, your god will possess infinitely greater power than you. When you destroy him, all your power is lost. Therefore it's a team effort, of which you are only the supporting role.

When you believe and he is real, your god will possess infinitely greater power than you. When you destroy him, all your power is lost. Therefore it's a team effort, of which you are only the supporting role.

That is an excellent point, one that factors in the very existence of God.

If you believe, then He is exists and is more powerful than you. If you chose not to believe, then His power in your life and mind are annulled. But that raises a sub-question to the main topic: what if He exists and you chose not to believe, thereby catapulating the concept of God onto the real playing field, and not just within your brain. E.g., I can sit butt naked in the snow outside, and tell myself that it isn't cold. But the snow is cold, and it will kill me by my refusal to recognize the existence of it's character.:2cents:

First of all I'd like to say everyone has some great arguements, and I especially like reading LjasonL's posts.

It would seem to me this topic question is never-ending as it has many perspectives on which to view the question.

If you believe in God he is more powerful then you because you live your life with the thought of him in your mind.

However if you don't believe in god then there is no one to be more powerful then, and you don't have a question to ask.

The concept of being more powerful then god is true because ultimatley we the human being choose to believe or not believe in gods.

The proof of God is the form of the proof.

This could go on forever, I think.

The whole concept behind faith is indeed to trust in something that you cnnot wholly prove, but that's only part of the relationship to between God and human. As stated, he doesn't need us to worship him, but would like us to...and actually, if you have ever been a true christian,(not just going to church simply to say you go), then you will know that christians are more than willing to do this. It's hard to explain the reasoning...kind of like a show of faith...sort of...I'm not so good with the putting the words together and them coming out a good thing o.O Also note that, according to common belief(and the bible...), we are not the only creatures in contact with God. There are angels as well...and actually, i one observes their behavior in the O.T., they will find it a mirror of how the ideal christian should act, and they do it willingly. That's the whole point...

This is, of course, assuming that the god in question is the Christian God...going on context clues, that's what it looks like.


And Moppie, food for thought: "I think, therefore I am."