Hi y-all
I recentley had a no spark prob on a 3.1 lumina 1992
after reading a thread by luminatic
wich was ansewred by richtazz and tblake I began my quest.
I removed the crank sensoor and noticed it had been replaced,
so I decided to check the twisted yellow and purple wire harness that
conects the sensor to the ICM, it had 2 bare areas on it after fixing the wire
and reassembling the removed parts I found the problem was solved.
Thank you guys, your ansewrs really helped.
I also found that if your hands are large (like mine) you can
easily access the crank sensor by removing the belt from the alt
and taking the rear suport bolt and the 3 fasteners from the alt plate
off and removing the alt.
One more thing,
the wire is twisted for a reason(it prevents the signal from canceling out)
so be sure the wire is twisted back to it's original way befor reinstalling.
once again THANKS!:licka:

yeah, exactly, abs sensors are also twisted. glad we could be of help.

It was our pleasure to help you out. Glad it was a relaitively simple and inexpensive fix. THanks for the feedback too, we like happy endings.

Hey Lt.!
Where abouts did you find those bare spots in the wires? Closer to the ICM or the CPS? Any details would be a great help. You really got my hopes up because all along this problem has acted like a short. I'm gonna check it out the minute I get hope tonight.
Thank you!

They were where the wire was against the oil pan.
But!, bad news, I parked the car in the drive at the front of the house and the next morning, BLAM!!, no spark again, I'm currently looking in the junk yard for a replacement wire loom for the CPS to ICM. I tried to locate the
part though a dealer, I'll give the ol'boy credit, he spent about an hour trying
to find one with no luck, all parts still check out.
I'll keep ya posted, OH!, do not try to make this harrness, if you seperate the ends from the loom and reconect them to similar wire then you create
resistance in the loom and the signal is lost.
Talk to ya soon.:banghead:

Well thank you anyway but I took that wire off of mine and could find no problems. The cover was worn/melted thru in one spot but the wires weren't. It checked out fine on the continuity tester. Put everything back together and still no spark at all. I'm at my wit's end. Anyone have any ideas as to what else it could be?

My day started with the sun shinning and birds singing and went to crap shortly after.
I went to the junkyard and was lucky enought to find a 3.1 out of the car with the much sought after loom in perfect condition, it cost me a whole 5 dollars. I put it on and nothing, same @#!!&% problem as befor.
WELL, Iwas contempating just setting it on fire when I spoke to my father
who was an aricraft electrician in the Navy, He spoke of GREMLINS in the wires on some aircraft and suggested I check the ICM on the car, don't take it in to be checked, just check it on the car, soooooo, I did.
I finagled my autozone guy to come to me with the tester( I do ALOT of bussiness with autozone) so he showed up and low and behold, the ICM
FAILED over and over again, so I hauled my but to autozone and bought the
80 dollar part, while there I went ahead and got a new crank sensor and
plugwires as well as 2 coil packs(they only had 2 on the shelf)
I put the new stuff on and noticed the wire loom from the junkyard had a 2
pin connector on one end and a 3 pin on the other, HMMMM, I found out that the middle pin on the ICM side of the loom is a type of ground, you don't have to have it, but it makes the signal from the crank sensor
cleaner (less interferance from outside stuff).
I also noticed that the new crank sensor tip, the metal tip at the end,
was sticking out farther than the old one wich would decrease the air gap
between the crank and crank sensor.
I put all the stuff on and hit the key. YEE HAW!! she runs great! total cost was about 180.00 when done, but, IT'S DONE!!!!!:iceslolan
Now I'm grabbing a beer and heading out to the back yard and getting in the pool:smokin:

PS
The Haynes manual cost me 17.00
and if you remove the coilpacks first, the coilpack plate is much easier to get at, no feeling for that bottom bolt:wink:
Later guys, surfs up:smokin:

Well Lt. I am glad your problem is solved. I really appreciate your input. And thank you tblake and richtazz too. I just don't think I'm gonna make the investment in the new parts tho. I have no way of being sure they will fix the problem and if they don't, I'm out $200. This old girl has 237,000 miles and I think it just might be her time. Too bad tho. The engine (when it used to start) was still strong and it burned no oil. I wonder what I can get for it.

richtaz, do these early 3.1;s have a cam sensor as well as a crank sensor, or is it just the 3.8's? a cam sensor may also cause your condition. I wouldn't be ready to part with it yet. I'll see if i can get you a wiring diagram of what wires should be hot in what circumstances at the ignition module. It should help you narrow it down. Dont give up hope yet...... I'll try to have that for you later on this evening.

Thank you tblake! I was also wondering something else: Do you think the problem could be in the wiring up in the steering column? A friend of mine says i should hotwire in to eliminate that as a possible cause. I have no idea how to do that. Do you think it would be worth the time to tear the column apart?

94 and later have cam sensors, some 93's do, none of the 92-backs have a cam sensor. The 94-ups also have two crank sensors. One is behind the harmonic balancer, the other is in the back of the block like the earlier models.

Thank you tblake! I was also wondering something else: Do you think the problem could be in the wiring up in the steering column? A friend of mine says i should hotwire in to eliminate that as a possible cause. I have no idea how to do that. Do you think it would be worth the time to tear the column apart?

well, i'll try and find the wiring diagram, you can do some tests with your multimeter, (see if "hot in run" is actually "hot in run") and we'll go from there.

Thanks for clarifying richtazz, I just didnt know if the early 3.1 had them. :smokin:

Thank you tblake. It sounds like that is just what i need. And I got a long weekend coming to work on it!

You're welcome tblake, we make a good team. And good luck to you Luminati, let us know how it works out.

I promise I will. I hate to see it when someone gets all sorts of help on here and then never even reports the ultimate outcome. No matter what happens, I really appreciate you guys' suggestions.

hey luminati, did you get my private message yesterday?

Tblake, Richtazz, Ltcarguy:
Thank you all for your help on this problem. Tblake I did try that resource you provided and I appreciate it. Unfortunately, the solution still eludes me. The only thing I can think of is there is a short in the wiring somewhere. I have no idea where to begin with that! As it is, my trusty old lumina is going on ebay under parts vehicles. Sometimes you just have to let go.

OH MAN, I hate to hear that, this could be a simple thing, we could be missing the forrest by looking for trees.
Let's try 1 more time, give us the particulars again and let's see if we can get it.
Put it all in one post and give it one more chance.

second that

Thank you guys! Your help is above and beyond the call of duty! Here goes as best as i can recall: I first noticed the problem in march of last year. I'm in Milwaukee, by the way so it was still cold and snowy. I had also had that distributor hole leak which I had just fixed so there was a lot of oil on the engine. The car would fire up fine but after 1-2 minutes would start cutting out. Sounded like it wasn't getting spark intermittantly. It would miss like crazy and usually die completely. This would happen whether you were sitting there or if you were actually moving. It would normally fire right back up and run another 20-30 seconds and start missing again. Giving it gas did not help. Normally after the 3rd start it would idle and drive just fine. It seemed to be related to engine temp but who knows? but sometimes it would crank and not start. I tested it for spark on those occasions and NOTHING. But after waiting a few minutes to 1/2 hr. the spark would return full force. That only happened a few times tho. Usually it would fire right back up. Anyway, I didn't know what to think. At that time I thought it could be a fuel issue so I tested/cleaned or replaced every sensor, valve and sending unit I thought could be effecting it. NOTHING changed. It kept doing it. But the car was still drivable. In late spring I took it 75 miles to my good friend's house. He's a mechanic and put it on his OBD tester. It came back with a vague ignition code. I could not get the car to duplicate the problem in front of him, by the way. He guessed ECM and I ordered a remanufactured one. So after I get back to Milw, guess what? The problem stops! OK it happened a couple times but overall it was pretty much gone. Then about a month ago I go out one morning, sart it up. It runs for about 2 seconds and just shuts off. No missing or nothing. It was just like turning off the key. So I figure the ECM is now fried. I put in the new one and still no spark. Checked all the fuses and they are fine. Put in a new CPS and still no spark. Tested the ignition module and its fine. Pulled the wire that gave Ltcarguy trouble and mine is ok. I pulled my starter to get the IM off and after i put it back on i had my friend bump the starter to make sure it was hooked up ok and i got a loud pop and a bunch of white smoke by the power steering pump. It has not done that again but I feel like it might be important somehow. Anyway, I got it all back togther and still no spark. I removed and resistance tested each coil and they are ok. RE-tested the IM and re-inspected all fuses and everything is fine.
I'm like you guys: I hate giving up but I can't think of anything else. I'll try anything (as long as it doesn't cost anything cuz I don't wanna put any more significant cash into this car) Thank you again for any suggestions!!

ok, ok, ok, ummmmm, are you familiar with hotwiring cars?????, just kidding. GM's seem to have a lot of problems with ignition switches for some reason. There may be a spark of hope that this switch in yours is bad. My friend once had an issue with her blazer where it would crank and crank and crank, and no power was getting to the secondary ignition wire from the ignition switch, so there was no spark. Jees, i cant believe i havn't thought of this before. If you would like to conduct some tests to see if this is your problem, let me know, and i'll type up some procedure (little too late tonight 12am), also if i could get a year and motor again? thanks. Please dont give up hope yet, we'll get her.

ok, what the heck. remove the kick panel on the driver side. Not sure how to. Look for the big thick wire harness with 7 thick wires in it, red, red with white stripe, pink, blue with white stripe, orange, yellow, and purple with white stripe. Acquire your self some jumper wires sufficient to handle 30 amps for a few seconds. follow the wire haress to a big sort of plug thats bolted to its mate. It will have a lot of other wires going to it also. from there you will want to back probe jumper the red wire to the pink wire, and alos to the blue wire with a white stripe. Dont get alarmed if you hear the fule pump prime. :) then jumper the red wire with the white stripe to the yellow wire. your car should now start to crank, and it it starts, You have a faulty ignition module. The purple wire with a white stipe and the orange wires are accessory wires and power things like your radio when not cranking. these could be jumped to the red wire with the white stripe instead of the starter after the car starts.

NOTE: I the writer of this post CANNOT be held responsable for illegal misuse of any information thereof.

oh, yeah, and i forgot to mention, that if it doesnt start, you may want to grab a test light and see whats happening. make sure both your red wires are hot with a constant b+. If not check ignition fuses. The big 30 amp ones.

Excellent idea tblake. I actually already had that kick panel off cuz i was going to check around in there and see if anything looked out of the ordinary. Then I thought I was just getting desperate and talked myself out of it. Now I have a procedure to follow thanks to you. I'll report back ASAP. Going to be gone this weekend so look for me on here early next week. Thanks again!

One thing we haven't suggested yet, does the car have any kind of aftermarket alarm/keyless entry/remote start on it? When those things go haywire, they can make you chase your tail forever!

Tblake, just a suggestion. If you want to make a post instructing someone how to hotwire, do it in a PM. I'd hate to see you get in any trouble.

Rich:
Negative on the alarm or remote starter but thank you for the suggestion.

yeah, that would probably be a good idea huh rich?????? But yeah, some people say i know too much for my own good. People wonder how i know all this, 5 remote starters installed later, one just knows. BTW this is the how to hotwire his car, the wires will be totally different from car to car, and if anyone actually uses this info maliciuosly, i hope he gets prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. Just keep your car locked, and the dash all together, you'll be safe, i doubt anyone who would ever steal a car actually checks AF before they do. LOL

The reman ECM you bought/installed, is it an A-1 cardone unit? They are highly problematic, and it could still be your issue. If it's a Delco or Standard Ignition part, then it's less likely. How does the wiring harness at the ECM look, any corrosion, melted terminals, etc...? Also check all your grounds, including the engine to frame ground and the ground for the ECM.

Tblake,Just looking out for you buddy, you're one of the good guys on here, always doing your best to help others out. I get a lot of that too, as i can break into a car in less than a minute. I would NEVER steal a car (or any thing for that matter) though, as that Karma thing will whup your ass if you test it.

understood rich, next time i will PM the person, thanks for looking out for me. I sometime do things without using my head. Anyhoo, anyone hear from luminati, how did it turn out?

Hi guys. I haven't been able to work on it yet as work had me out-of-town. I'm gonna do it this weekend even tho it will be a hot one! I'll examine the ecm leads too. Where exactly is the engine-to-frame ground anyway?

there are tons of grounds actually. Check that database under ground distrobution.

I know this isn't the exact same car as on the thread title, but it's the closest thread to my problem.
I have a 98 lumina ltz with almost 150k mi, and a history of a delay in initiation of the starting cycle; when you turn the key, there is sometimes a brief hesitiation before the engine cranks. At various times, I have replaced the plugs, wires, the starter, alternator, and a few batteries. It also has this oddity that i think is unrelated, of not lighting up any brake lights except the highmount unless you pull back slightly on the turn signal.
A few days ago, when starting it up in the am, it hesitated briefly before cranking, then had an unusual rough idle that persisited until I shut it off. The next time i started it up, the hesitation was slightly longer, and the rough idle was present again. Also that time, the security light stayed on. After filling it up at the gas station with it running because i was afraid it wouldn't start back up if i turned it off, i proceeded down the highway. While on the highway, at approx 50mph on a slightly downhill slope, the engine misfired, and a second later stalled out entirely. While coasting in neutral, I tried to start it again, and at first there was no response, but after a few tries it would crank but not start. After getting it towed home, I discovered a blown serpentine belt. After replacing that, there was no change. The car still would crank but not start. First I checked all relevant fuses and relays. The fuel pump relay is heard to engage, as well as the fuel pump itself. Fuel is getting to the fuel rail. An ignition tester at the plug revealed no spark is being produced. It also appears there is also no current getting to the fuel injectors, as there was no reading on a voltmeter in the electrical connector off the fuel rail. My guess right now is the PCM. Anyone know where it's at, or have any other suggestions?

yes, try a different key. if the security light is on, the VATS system will disable current to the fuel inectors and to the starter relay. Instead of looking into an ecm related issue, first check out the condition of the resistor pellet chip in the key, and the contacts for it in the lock cylinder. Also may want to open up your own thread, you may get more responses that way, i just happened by this one bacause i have been following this problem, and many others on the lumina forums. good luck

Hi guys. Sorry it took so long to get back to you. Well I tried the hotwire procedure and suffice to say no one is going to stel the car that way! Still no spark. Soon as it cools off a little here I'll check those grounds but I'm thinking I'm just outta luck. Thank you for your help tho.

no, your never out of luck. Theres a reason why yours wont fire the plugs. got a donar ignition module laying around? swap them and try it, and even though the ecm might be new, doesnt completly rule it out. Look for loose wires and loose grounds. Wish i could get ya a wire diagram of the IM. Check out the ecm plugs for corrosion. Is this the origional motor. I would take the IM, ECM, and could packs all in for testing to a diffeernt place again.

Tblake I gotta admire your never-say-die attitude! OK here's something I found but I don't know how important or helpful it is: I was checking out the fuses (again) in the fuse center near the right front shock tower. 2 of those fuses are marked "IGN". I tested the circuits with a light. The fuse on the left is hot when the key is on. But the one on the right had no juice going to it with the key on OR even while cranking the starter. Does this narrow anything down?

yeah, you may have found something. Look for maybe a zorched a fuse link. maybe for just circumstances, pull the fuse that has no b+ in hot and crank, and jumper from the battery to each spot and make an attempt to start. I dont like doing things like this, but if it starts you can nattor down everythign there after. And will know its a wiring problem before that fuse.

my sources show that under the hood on the right hand side, numbers 10 and 11 are both for the ignition system, as well as number 21 which is a 30A. I could be wrong, but check out all these fuses, in run and maybe even while cranking.(get a partner)

Hi guys:
I got the car to start. It was the ignition module the whole time. It tested fine at 2 separate Auto Zones. I got ahold of a different IM, switched them out and it fired right up. Live and learn! Thank you t-blake, richtazz, lt. carguy dave and travis. Here's to another 240k miles!

Glad to hear you got her going Luminati.

Luminachick, your post got lost in this long and drawn out thread, you may want to re-post in your own thread, that way it will get addressed in an open forum. I will PM you with what I think are your issues.

YEEEESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WHOOO HOOOOO So glad to hear it. We havn't heard from you for so long i thought maybe you had junked it and forgot about us. Thanks for the great feedback. Hope you stick around the forum with any valuable information you may be able to contribute.