why the new section?

How come there is a new section? Muscle cars & Hot Rods are just street cars, no need for a separate area IMO,
We have a street car area already:screwy:
If you are going make that then you should also make Tuner, Exotics, Motorcycles, Trucks etc.. sections then it becomes a pain to navigate everything

We had enough requests for the section that we felt it was justified.

Why do we have subforums at all?

Having the street cars separated from the race cars was rediculous. Separating the domestics from the imports is even more rediculous.

Since the Motorsports section has been formed I rarely go there, as I haven't built a race car in years. I've missed out on some spectacular works in progress, and the views per thread in that section reflect that it's not only me that is ignoring those builds. Lets get all genres of cars back into one section.

I'm not sure Matt is wrong: in some other boards we haven't separations and we haven't needs. For the same reason he said I lost something in the street section.

But I like to bump a thing: does the subforums kinds to be the character of the forum? its soul? I found out other boards full of hot-rods and other american amenities and also I like much more this place becouse is more "globally" oriented. Well at least I think you have your reason to do.

It will be interesting to see how it works out. I was disappointed when the Motorsport section was split off of the Street/Show section- the only advantage I can think of that the split provides is that there's less traffic on on them individually than combined, so threads persist on the front page slightly longer (especially in motorsport). Other than that, nothing. Stripping off Detroit iron may slow Street/Show again (which may be a good thing, as it's has always had more traffic than Motorsport), but this seems to me like a very artificial and contrived kind of split.

I'm of two minds about it-
First, I honestly won't spend much time in the new section, as it's a genre of cars I don't have much interest in. Having them split off means I will see even fewer of them (there won't be any in Street/Show anymore that I might occasionally click on out of curiosity). But overall, I probably won't miss them. (Which is unfortunate, as it means there will be some excellent builds that I just won't see.)

On the other hand, I think this is an unfortunate and counterproductive rift in our hobby. It echoes the ricer vs mullet split that's so obnoxious in US automotive culture. Sure, car enthusiasts almost always have genres of cars that they prefer over others- but overall I think it's better to be brought together because we're car enthusiasts and modelers than divided by genres. Aircraft, armor, and ship model builders don't divide themselves with this kind of nonsense. I think it's sad that we do. :disappoin

So, I guess we'll see what comes of it. I admit, I'm curious to see how much traffic it will get. Will it bring a new group of muscle car builders out of the woodwork? Or will it fissle because muscle car builders already prefer other forums to AF? Time will tell....

Incidentally, I'm also curious why this wasn't brought up as a post for discussion? Moderators are of course free to make whatever decisions and actions are best for the smooth running of the forum, but it might have been interesting and useful to have a conversation and see some different ideas and opinions first.

Since the Motorsports section has been formed I rarely go there, as I haven't built a race car in years. I've missed out on some spectacular works in progress, and the views per thread in that section reflect that it's not only me that is ignoring those builds.

I TOTALLY agree with you! I know I have missed some incredible race/motorsport builds.

So, now I have to browse through 3 forums just to get an update on GTmike400's scratchbuilt hot rod???:grinyes:

The split came about because there was enough call for it from members to have it considered worthwhile.

I like the arguments I am hearing here because I can actually agree with some.

Hopefully, we'll hear from those that requested the split too so we can hear what they have to say.

Hopefully, we'll hear from those that requested the split too so we can hear what they have to say.

Yeah, hopefully we will.

So it was split off just because a certain number of members requested it? Does that mean if we got enough people together to PM mods and suggest it, Ferraris or Porsches could be split off, too?

Doesn't it make sense to discuss these thing first? I'm not saying AF is a democracy (or should be), but isn't the community best served by community inclusive discussions when changes are considered?

I'm pretty certain it was discussed.

Since I wasn't the person that brought it to the admin, I can't make educated comments on this, only what I know.

Sorry to be so blunt but I don't see any benefit in this - only loss.

A more refined search function that doesn't eliminate GT as a search request parameter would be a much more useful change !!

Does that mean if we got enough people together to PM mods and suggest it, Ferraris or Porsches could be split off, too?


While we're at it, we should have a section for "Classic/Vintage" autos, instead of an "old school" thread buried in the "street" section.
We can then split this "Classic/Vintage" section into "Import/Domestic"

Also, there could be a Skyline section, for all years of the model.

A Honda section would be nice as well.

I've got more ideas, just holler if you want to hear them:rofl:

I'm fine with the seperate sections... the Street car section was really cluttered, hard to follow a lot of the builds because when I came back the next day, they were 3 pages back. I don't build racecars that often either, but that doesn't make me any less likely to click on the section. You guys not checking out the models in that section "because they're not your thing" is your loss. And I suppose the builder's loss for not having more responsed on the build. I clicked on both before, and I'll click on all three now. It's really not gonna kill me...

While we're at it, we should have a section for "Classic/Vintage" autos, instead of an "old school" thread buried in the "street" section.
We can then split this "Classic/Vintage" section into "Import/Domestic"

Also, there could be a Skyline section, for all years of the model.

A Honda section would be nice as well.

I've got more ideas, just holler if you want to hear them:rofl:

:cwm27::cwm27:
One could be ITA stuff? and it could be splitted into "Street/Racing/Muscle Hotrods" ? :grinyes::grinyes::evillol::evillol::smokin:

I'm pretty much in agreement with Tigeraid. Its hard to keep track of some of the wip's I'm following along with when they go off the page so fast. some of the topic's I follow I get notified about in my email, but alot slip thru. most of the models in the street section are "not my thing" but that is where I spend most of my time because there are truly great models there. I dont care about the subject too much, I just appreciate someone's efforts and skill more the anything. some forums I belong to have over 20 sections, most have about 10 to 15. so this is really no big deal for me at all, now I have 3 to click on also.

I have no problem with the split.

But today I was suprised to find out that my thread was moved from Street and Show to Muscle car...

The thing that I am not too comfortable with is that my thread is now in a lower traffic area than before where less people will see it...But anyhow, not too big of a deal...

Winston

The thing that I am not too comfortable with is that my thread is now in a lower traffic area than before where less people will see it...But anyhow, not too big of a deal...

Winston

Premature judgement I think.

There's pros and cons to both sides here. The rift between people who are into Japanese/Euro and people who are into American cars is quite anoying. I've been on Scale Auto's Forum for quite some time now, and the Muscle guys are always doing everything they can to make the Japanese/Euro guys feel unwelcome. I'm into almost everything. I love Hot Rods, I like muscle, and I love Japanese/Euro. So in a way, I don't like the split. But at the same time, things do get burried pretty quick in the street/show section. Maybe it will be good to clear out the street/show section a little. I guess time will tell.

I'm against this kind of sub-division, too. (I don't like motorsports sub-forum, either.)

Having a general discussion (the main page) and a comp/progress is one thing because the contents are completely different, but there's no such differences between different subject groups.

I understand the point in regard to the swollen comp/progress sub-forum, but if that's the case, wouldn't it be more logical to detach the most popular subject (like tuners or JPN makes) from everything else? That way two separated sub-forums will balance in terms of volume, right? If you separate a minor subject from the main progress page, then what's next? British, German, Modern and Classic? Or even by decades?

That kind of subdivision only benefits a small number of people, and that's not gonna solve the cluttering problem in the main street comp/progress sub-forum, does it?

Besides, we already have a sticky at the top of the street comp/progress sub-forum, saying, "online meet directory," and there's a reason why it says "Important" in red.

Personally, Im not a huge fan of it. I'm a hot rod guy, and even I dont feel the need for it.

I'll go with the flow whatever the decision is.

I was kind of out of the loop with the introduction of the Muscle car section. I can remember PMan suggesting it a long time ago but not much else since. :dunno:

However, regards the Motorsport section, I requested that back before I was a Mod and believe it has been successful. Okay some may say there is less traffic in there compared to the combined section but that’s the idea. Those who can remember the old single forum will know that the Motorsport models were not being seen because they disappeared off the first few pages so quickly. Now, those with an interest in Motorsport can check in every day or two and not miss anything. It also helped slow the turnover in what became the Street section.

I can see a Muscle cars section will have exactly the same benefits for the lower numbers of American Iron builders. In many quarters AF is currently viewed as a “Ricer and Tuner” forum, we of course know that is not true, but it's a real perception many people out there hold. So this will hopefully work to show the world how diverse AF builders are. :)

I agree too many sub forums is to be avoided, however AF is constantly growing and the corresponding volume of posts needs to be channelled in the most efficient way possible. Look at the Motorsport forum; it regularly has a dozen threads active every day, sometimes more than the street section. It was created as a trial and if it had failed would have been removed. It still can change if there is a better idea, although I'm not going to be the one to move the thousands of threads around again. :) Same deal with the Muscle Car section, let's suck it and see. With our new, more active Administrator we can tweak it down the track if deemed necessary. A few extra clicks is worth keeping our AF house neat and tidy! :D

Having the street cars separated from the race cars was rediculous. Separating the domestics from the imports is even more rediculous.

Since the Motorsports section has been formed I rarely go there, as I haven't built a race car in years. I've missed out on some spectacular works in progress, and the views per thread in that section reflect that it's not only me that is ignoring those builds. Lets get all genres of cars back into one section.

Agreed. The more sub-dividing, the less I see because I don't want to keep opening more pages. Keep it simple.

Separating the domestics from the imports is even more rediculous.

What? There's an Australian Car section!?!? :p :lol:

A little idea just came to my mind...(please ignore if you don't like it)

I'd like to have:

- main page (as is)
- motorsports (WIP only)
- street and show (WIP only)
- completed (for all kinds of builds)

reasons: I like to look at the great skills of the builders in the motorsports section, but I seldom go there because motorsport is not my main interest.

The completed section would make it easy to browse all builds and if something is interesting I can go to the WIP thread of that individual car to see how it was build.

An added bonus would be a little icon in the thread title of the completed section, showing a thumbnail of the car (like ebay).

Just my :2cents:

I really like the forum as it is (the best modeling forum IMO), but if there is room for improvement, why not make use of it.

So we've been discussing it for more than a day now, and we still haven't seen anyone post a good reason for this split. It's been suggested that splitting something off the Street/Show section might have the benefit of slowing Street/Show down- but as hirofkd pointed out, this split is not going to be an effective way of doing it. Musclecars are not a popular enough subject here to draw any significant traffic away from Street/Show. I doubt there will be any noticable impact to Street/Show at all. If we're going to have another split, why not make it one that will benefit the community as a whole, instead of just a particular niche group?


I'd like to have:

- main page (as is)
- motorsports (WIP only)
- street and show (WIP only)
- completed (for all kinds of builds)


This may actually be a great idea! We do seem to have two general categories of posters- those who do progress threads, and those that post just when their builds are completed. It might very well have the effect of turning the Progress section into a clinic for building techniques, and the Completed section into a gallery- seems like a terrific way to organize a modeling forum! Furthermore, it means no one is segregated by style, nationality, or any other such BS. We would have to consider if it still makes sense to keep Motorsports Progress split off, but that decision may be best make after we see how much traffic the new sections get.


What? There's an Australian Car section!?!? :tongue: :lol:

And thanks to RallyRaider for demostraiting just how asinine it is to use distinctions like 'domestic' and 'import' in an international forum. Everything is an import.

I second that. It's simple, and logical. I can foresee greater benefit than just pleasing a few.

Or better yet, just three
main
progress
completed

I remember when Motorsports sub-division was created, there was a substantial number of opposition, but the mood was wait and see. Now that the sub-division turned out to be a failure, I think it should be put back to one progress sub-forum, and spin off the finished works to a completed sub-forum.

Now hang on a cotton pickin’ minute here Gentlemen. On what basis is the Motorsport forum considered a failure? To me it sounds like the major problem is people can’t take the effort to look at it? Is that right? Now how much effort are we talking about? All that is needed is the single click of a mouse button! If a person cannot be bothered to perform the marathon exertion of strength and endurance of depressing their chosen finger 2mm then I reckon we are doing them a favour by hiding all those nasty racing car models away from their view. :lol:

As I said before, the Motorsport folder was kinda my idea, but I assure you I’m not taking this personally (despite what this post may sound like - the written word is so one-dimensional). But please come up with valid reasons if you are going to make blanket statements like calling the folder a failure. I remember when it was introduced slightly differently. It was taken as a very small, compromise step compared to a lot of bigger ideas that were doing the rounds. To me it looks like the people who actually use the folder are happy with it, but I'm happy to be corrected. The "to-busy-to-be-bothered-to-click-my-mouse" brigade haven't got me convinced of anything (constructive) yet.

The idea suggested by voyageur does sound pretty cool. Simple and elegant. :)

I like the common finished subforum: very nice idea!
Also you're right Phil, you show out logical reasons: we need to keep the race sub.

To back Phil up, I am more than happy with the motorsport section - I frequent it more than the stock and show section.

Now, by that same measure of judgement, I don't visit the stock and show much, so I guess that's a failure too :lol:

Guys,

Had to throw my :2cents: into the arguement.

Personally the for/against arguement is contrived, silly and in my mind pointless. So now someone has to click on a 3rd link too see some build ups! In the grand scheme of things does it really matter that much!

As for the arguement of whether a sub-category is a success or failure is actually quite immature. Its all relative really if there is more interest in street/mod/imports/rods then naturally the street car section is going to have more traffic.

Discussion is a good thing and everyone is entitled to their opinion but I really dont see how this arguement in anyway benefits the forum!

Ciaran

I don't think I would say that the Motorsports section has turned out to be a failure- however by itself it hasn't solved the heavy traffic problem in Street/Show, which I'm understanding is the reason it was split off?

It does seem to have created something of a set of divided subcommunities here. I expect everyone here can now be divided into one of three groups: those who hang out mainly in Street/Show, those who hang out mainly in Motorsports, and those of us who do our best to swing both ways. There are many people who post regularly in one and don't post often or at all in the other. Sure, it's not hard to look at both, but it's hard to deny that they recieve different attention and traffic.

I'm not at all convinced that this fragmentation of the forum has been a good thing. It obviously hasn't been catastrophic, but I would strongly urge against further dividing the forum into additional 'special interest groups'.

If the problem of too much traffic in Street/Show needs to be addressed (and there seem to be plenty of people who believe it does), than maybe how best to do that is what this discussion really should be about- and I think voyageur's idea is a terrific one.

A little idea just came to my mind...(please ignore if you don't like it)

I'd like to have:

- main page (as is)
- motorsports (WIP only)
- street and show (WIP only)
- completed (for all kinds of builds)

I also think this is an excellent idea. I don't frequent the forum as much as I used to, so have completed section would let me (and others) see all the great builds more conveniently than wrapped in the clutter of tons of WIP threads. And if I wanted to see the particulars of how the kits was put together, I'd know exactly which section to go.

Hi guys,

thanks for the kind words, I wasn't sure wether you would like my idea :uhoh:

Any comments on the thumbnail (ebay-style) idea?

Cheers

SEB

On the other hand, I think this is an unfortunate and counterproductive rift in our hobby. It echoes the ricer vs mullet split that's so obnoxious in US automotive culture. Sure, car enthusiasts almost always have genres of cars that they prefer over others- but overall I think it's better to be brought together because we're car enthusiasts and modelers than divided by genres. Aircraft, armor, and ship model builders don't divide themselves with this kind of nonsense. I think it's sad that we do. :disappoin

Before I get through reading this whole thread, I want to agree with this aspect whole heartedly. I'm disappointed this divide has developed in the automotive culture at all, and kind of find refuge in models and in that I can build a Honda today, a '32 Ford tomorrow, a Supra the next, and a rockabilly sled a week later. The reason it seems sensible to me that Motorsports are sperate from Street cars is that for the most part, Motorsport builders replicate a particular, real car; while Street builders build whatever comes to their heads. That seems like a natural modeling difference, whereas Tuners v Domestics seems like just a division in the cars, and like someone said, an unnatural divide.

Rallyraider makes some very good points.

Voyageur's idea of the two WIP sections, and the grand completed section is amazing, except it would remind me how few of my kits go from start to finish. :(

I don't care much for the thumbnails, though, that would just look awfully busy I think. A much better use of new (and simple?) code at AF would be to prevent giant pictures from making the entire thread wider, limiting the wideness to only the post with the giant picture in it.

Okay the culprit behind the Muscle Car/Hotrod section has been found - turns out it's me! :uhoh: twospirits (our new admin) ran with an idea I postulated ages ago. Nice to have somebody around who can make things happen. :)

I think the Completed forum is garnering much support and looks like a great way to go. It will bring all the completed projects in together so those of you who don't like segregation can see everything on one page. If the WIP forums remain seperate then the builder can finish his WIP thread off with a link to the completed thread in the new section.

Willimo - yes that was one of the arguments for the Motorsport folder. Motorsports people tend a bit more to the rivet counter end of the scale.

How about another idea. Motorcycle WIP forum. <runs and hides>

Phil, you'd make George Washington proud. How did it go with that tree? "I cannot tell a lie, Sir. It was me"? ;)

Seriously though, I still cannot find a rationle for sub-dividing by type (further than the existing MS sub-forum which is kind of logical almost in the way that planes are different from cars).

There is a strong argument for seperating WIPs from Completed threads. This in itself would reduce traffic in the WIP section and is an approach usead on other forums with success.

In my case I enjoy folkowing WIP threads (of ALL types ) because these are where I gain new knowledge. Completed threads are nice to look at but don't teach me anything. This is just my personal preference but I suspect that many might have the same approach.

A bike sub-forum? This would be as neccessary as F1 and WRC sub-forums in the Motor Sport sub-forum IMO ;)

All we really need are 3 sections: general, WIP (with maybe the MS split off since it allready is) and completed.

My opinions on the line (or lack thereof) between street/show cars and musclecars have already been said, so..

- main page (as is)
- motorsports (WIP only)
- street and show (WIP only)
- completed (for all kinds of builds) --has my vote. Post your WIP link in your completed thread.

I don't even visit the forums at (cough cough) anymore. Street, musclecar, stock, import, motorcycles, trucks, soft tacos, crispy tacos, what the heck? That's just too much to keep track of. IMO there's no point splitting beyond street and non-street race vehicles.

Interesting discussion, was a bit surprised to see the new subdivision.
Doesn't bother me personally, I will use whatever the moderators layout.

One question though, excuse my ignorance but what is a "Ricer"?

One question though, excuse my ignorance but what is a "Ricer"?

Paul,

I think a ricer, is the little brother of crispier….

Sorry. Those who eat Kellogg’s breakfast cereal will find the funny side of that. The sub devision of the fourm is only going to work if those who virew the forums take the time to trawl through them.

Comments such as “I don’t visit the other sections, so I miss out” are like saying “I missed out on winning the lottery, as I didn’t buy a ticket”. If you don’t look, you don’t see, and if you don’t read, you don’t learn etc…

Its not that hard to actually take a quick look… With the newly released browsers with tab browsing, you can open all three on different tabs and flick between them,

But I do like the idea of WIP and completed forusm, were ALL builds are lumped together.. This way, we all get to see completed models, without a deluge of started WIP, never to be completed..

Just how many WIP threads is there, that will never be completed or from someone who left eons ago..?? There must be hundreds of them…. At least lumping all the completed models into on sub forum means the viewer can get to see completed models without having to hunt them out, bikes, motorsport, road cars etc…. And the completed threads should contain pictures of a completed model, 4 min and b 800 x 600 or 1024 – 768 max… So we can at least see them correctly…

Lurchio - ricer is a term for hotted up Asian cars. It began as a kind of derogatory remark but I think is worn proudly these days.

Mark - I do the same with Firefox's browser tabs. I bookmark my User CP page with all my subscribed forums, then a few clicks later have all my favouite haunts layed out for easy viewing. :)

I left AF a long time ago, I believe it was even before the creation of the Motorsport subforum, as I was fed up and tired of having to go through all the street and hot rod stuff. That is not of my interest and therefor I don't really read it. I did check back every now and then and it is only recently that my interest was pinged again by the quality of the builds here. My time is also too valuable to spend too much time on different modeling forums on the net, so I tend to pick and choose. The creation of the Motorsports forum should be considered a BIG success and specialisation brings automatically more quality and that has certainly be the case here.

Arguments as the forum would not be a success because of less traffic etc. does probably come from people who find a kick in reading numbers of their threads and ctr's and what not, but I don't believe it is a valuable argument. I post my stuff because I want to share and not because of traffic and viewing rates, hence the fact that I have been a lot more active on SRC then on AF.

To the mods: you will always, I repeat always, get resistance when implemening a change. That is just part of the human nature. You have people who have the ability to look ahead and forsee what possibly may happen (the changers and believers) and you have those who prefer to keep on going the way they've always done something (I think these are called conservative minded). If you believe that creating another subforum is necessary, then talk it through and do it. The future will show if it was the right thing. And certainly don't listen to those who whine about all the stuff that they so called miss out on. I think they miss it because they are too lazy to go a couple of extra clicks. If you really want to see it, if it really is your cup of tea, then that should not bother one, does it?

I'm not in favour of throwing all completed models in 1 section as it'll be the same as it was before, but then only without WIPs.

My :2cents:

ps. I've copied this message in the other thread as well, as there is valuable information for both in it.

I will be interested to see if this brings in more builders of this type of car. I'm of the mind that that happened with motorsports, as huudo alluded, and wonder if it will happen again. That would add an interesting dynamic to this place, and hopefully help those of us who are ignorant of but interested in those cars.

When I signed up, motorsports was already a sub-forum. I'm more into the motorsports section but I do check street regularly also. I just happen to check motorsports first. So having another sub-forum doesn't kill me. But someone who has been here longer might have a different opinion.

But what ever the layout is, this site still rocks.

I'd like to have:

- main page (as is)
- motorsports (WIP only)
- street and show (WIP only)
- completed (for all kinds of builds)


This would sound the main line to go. Because it is hard to keep track with all those WIP:s and Completed ones.

I personally like it, I won't have to wade through 35 posts on integras to get to somethingmore to my tastes

I'll put it as straight forward as I can.. I dont care, I havent been on here for at least 2 months and to see a muscle car section really got me interested. I don't feel like searching through about 20 pages of old posts with imports and other models to find a nice old muscle car modle. Sure I'm building an old AMG merc and a 1970 Skyline right now but I've got about 3 other musclecars going and I've just bought another 7... It frustrates the hell out of me to come on every now and then and search back through pages and pages and pages, sure it wouldn't be so if I was on here every day like i used to be but i don't have the time now and a section with the models I come on to see for inspiration in one section really helps.

My say, feel free to correct it however you want but we all have a certain type of car that we love and now mine is in a well deserved and needed section of its own.