my first thread here and one that i hope will open up some good discussion.
occasionally, certain things come up in thread about the design of cars or even the designers themselves (Bangle anyone?).
the simple question is, who/what design or designers are your favourites.

Do you prefer the technology based methods of Pininfarina of the past (wind tunnel lead design) or the "guess-work" of Giugiaro of the same period.
Does the Zagato DB4GT make up for the Zagato V8?
Can anything make up for Bertone's Rainbow concept and the not too popular 308 Dino?

Or do you prefer the work done by in-house groups/individuals? Bangle? De'Silva? Lagaay? Er.... does anyone know what Frank Stephenson actually does? Anyone else?

Do you think there is still a place for the design houses of old in an age where a car can be made technically perfect using various cad programs?

What cars do you like/dislike purely because of design reasons?



DM.

Personally, I think the early-mid 90s were a golden age of automotive design. Especially from the Japanese. Z32 300ZXs, R32 and R33 Skylines, S13 and S14 240SX/180SX/Silvias, FD RX-7s, NA Miatas, SW20 MR-2s, JZ80 Supras, ST185 and ST205 Alltrac Celicas, Z16 3000GTs, BB1 Preludes, DC2 Integras...

Other than Bob Hall (lead designer of the NA Miata) I don't know much about the actual men and women behind these designs though.

I love Gandini's cars like the Countach, Diablo, and Miura. I also like several of Pininfarina's designs like the F40, and Testarossa. I don't like Bangle's designs at all. Only the new 5 series looks okay and thats a abit of a stretch for me. BMW's have always looked strong with edgy lines, not soft curves with fins. Like the old 7 series from 1999 or 2000, or the 2000 M5 which is still my favorite BMW of all time. I really do hope there's still a place for the classic design houses, because in my opinion they're the ones who designed the greatest cars of all time. Cars like the F40, the Countach, and even the 959 still look better than some of today's cars. Basically, today's cars, especially supercars, are getting way to gadgety. For example, in a Gallardo, when you press the gas, a computer tells the engine how much throttle to give. In an Enzo when you push the paddle, a computer tells the transmission how to shift. I'd rather be the one doing all these things. personally, I think that supercars or even other cars like the Carrera's from the 80's and 90's are so much better. Even in race cars, I doubt we'll ever see a car tear across the mulsanne straight at over 230 mph again. During the days of Group C racing, 240 mph was an average top speed, and the cars actually looked attractive. Then there was the actual racing itself, the competition was sick. Like in '89 when the leading XJR-9 had to pit at the last minute, letting the Sauber C9' s take 1st and 2nd. Yea, the 80's and 90's were the Golden Age of automotive design. As for the top 3 cars I hate because of thier design...the BMW M6 (looks like a Z4 on roids), Ariel Atom (good idea, but the car's ugly), the new Subaru Impreza WRX STI (its hideous, the grill, the headlamps, they simply ruined the STI)

I think Roger Becker was cool. Mike Quaife is a genius. Jim Hall is my hero.

Roger Becker: suspension engineer at Lotus largely responsible for the Toyota MR2
Mike Quaife: transmissions and differentials
Jim Hall: Racecar engineer who made the famous CanAm Chaparral 2J

Personally, I think the early-mid 90s were a golden age of automotive design. Especially from the Japanese. Z32 300ZXs, R32 and R33 Skylines, S13 and S14 240SX/180SX/Silvias, FD RX-7s, NA Miatas, SW20 MR-2s, JZ80 Supras, ST185 and ST205 Alltrac Celicas, Z16 3000GTs, BB1 Preludes, DC2 Integras...

Other than Bob Hall (lead designer of the NA Miata) I don't know much about the actual men and women behind these designs though.

I agree 100%! I love the old school supercars as well. 90's supercars really an some high 80's like the XJ220 an it's borther the Twr. The F50 and the vector and even the fioravanti. The Pagani Zonda was definetly a blindside though didn't see that in modern design. The Mclaren really shows how good of an era it really was for supercar competition.

...but then the McLaren F1 really was/is an absolute one-off.
I can't think of any other car off the top of my head that had ONE man having absolute say over everything. GM sat on a drawing board himself to draw up the layout/s packaging details for the entire car and that doesn't really happen much anymore.

In terms of body design, Ian Callum and the clay model sculpter (whose name escapes me) were again, 100% free to mock up what ever they liked (following GM's design/specs of course).

Here again lies part of the debate.
Some people will cite the F1 as being the best car of all time because of the sheer speed of the thing and how long it took for people to produce a car that could beat it
Some people will say it is the best because it is one of the best looking cars ever designed.
Some people will say it is the best because it was designed without limitations.
Some people will say it is because of the genius in the eventual simplicity of GM's layout-design for optimium performance.

Which of these is more important?
Would it still be the best if any one of these was omitted?
If it looked the same but wasn't as fast would it still be considered the best?
If it had all of the performance but looked like a Corolla?
How about if they used stock off the shelf parts but ended up with the the same performance specs?

What do you think makes a car a good design?

For the record, I don't think much of the XJ220.
Looks wise, the proportions are off, especially with the mess that was created when they opted for the V6. Seeing as I always thought the original design was too long anyway, this doesn't help my opinion of the car. After this, it turned into a game of compromise between shortening the chassis which had a knock on effect on the body (proportions). Sure the car had sufficient performance but it is still at the end of the day, not what it was supposed to be. When you compare it to other mid engined V12's you have to wonder why on earth did the XJ220 need so much space at the rear?

...but then the McLaren F1 really was/is an absolute one-off.
I can't think of any other car off the top of my head that had ONE man having absolute say over everything. GM sat on a drawing board himself to draw up the layout/s packaging details for the entire car and that doesn't really happen much anymore.

In terms of body design, Ian Callum and the clay model sculpter (whose name escapes me) were again, 100% free to mock up what ever they liked (following GM's design/specs of course).

Here again lies part of the debate.
Some people will cite the F1 as being the best car of all time because of the sheer speed of the thing and how long it took for people to produce a car that could beat it
Some people will say it is the best because it is one of the best looking cars ever designed.
Some people will say it is the best because it was designed without limitations.
Some people will say it is because of the genius in the eventual simplicity of GM's layout-design for optimium performance.

Which of these is more important?
Would it still be the best if any one of these was omitted?
If it looked the same but wasn't as fast would it still be considered the best?
If it had all of the performance but looked like a Corolla?
How about if they used stock off the shelf parts but ended up with the the same performance specs?

What do you think makes a car a good design?

For the record, I don't think much of the XJ220.
Looks wise, the proportions are off, especially with the mess that was created when they opted for the V6. Seeing as I always thought the original design was too long anyway, this doesn't help my opinion of the car. After this, it turned into a game of compromise between shortening the chassis which had a knock on effect on the body (proportions). Sure the car had sufficient performance but it is still at the end of the day, not what it was supposed to be. When you compare it to other mid engined V12's you have to wonder why on earth did the XJ220 need so much space at the rear?

The motor is from BMW, but the car itself was designed by Gordon Murray. He wanted to join Lotus, but they made a big mistake by not hiring him. He instead found a job with Hawker Siddely. (I myself might have to get a job working at Lockheed Martin, also designing missles, if I can't find the job I want.) He finally got into motorsport with Brabham and became famous for his BT46B "Fan Car" in the 1978 Swedish Gran Prix. He joined Mclaren in 1986 before working in Mclaren Cars from 1991 to 2004. He later started a company called the "Light Car Company" and designed the Rocket. (I'm assuming it was to compete with the Caterhams to spite Lotus who wouldn't hire him earlier.) He now works for Evo Magazine and Road and Track.

He's one of my heroes. I, too, want to sit down and design a whole car. I'll hopefully have plans ready before I get by bachelor's in mechanical engineering.

Two words. Ian Callum ...

Aston Martin DB7
Aston Martin Vanquish
Ford Puma
Jaguar R Coupe
Jaguar R-D6
New Jaguar XK
New Jaguar XJ
Nissan R390
Range Rover
Volvo C70

All his :wink:

you left out the ford rs200.....

OK here is one for you, the 1986 Porsche 959 had one of the most advanced AWD systems EVER (all computer controled), great aerodynamics, advanced turbocharging system, ridgid chassies, under 3000lbs curb weight (without the use of carbon fiber) Yea it was expensive but that was the biggest step forward in modern automotive history. Modern cars are still trying to catch up with what that car did 20 years ago! 0-60 in 3.5 seconds, 1/4 mile in 11.8 seconds, 200mph speeds, all from an air cooled 2.8L flat six! That is why these cars sell for over a million dollers to collectors, over four times their new sticker price!

last time I checked, 959s were selling around the £150,000 mark; that's nowhere near $1000,000. In fact, it's pretty much the original sticker price.

the thing about the Porsche cars is that they are (or at least they were) engineer driven designs above all else. Best example of this is in the old air cooled engine. From the word go, it was designed to be increased (in volume) which resulted in it being over-specced, as it were, in terms of bearings and bolts and other internals and even the size of the casing. If you look at the flat 6 engines in a 911 up to the 993, you will see that it is essentially the same size with the only changing bit being the size of the clutch and gearbox.

Impressive car, that is for sure.
perfect example of engineered design over artistic design?

last time I checked, 959s were selling around the £150,000 mark; that's nowhere near $1000,000. In fact, it's pretty much the original sticker price.

the thing about the Porsche cars is that they are (or at least they were) engineer driven designs above all else. Best example of this is in the old air cooled engine. From the word go, it was designed to be increased (in volume) which resulted in it being over-specced, as it were, in terms of bearings and bolts and other internals and even the size of the casing. If you look at the flat 6 engines in a 911 up to the 993, you will see that it is essentially the same size with the only changing bit being the size of the clutch and gearbox.

Impressive car, that is for sure.
perfect example of engineered design over artistic design?

We do not have as many of the 200 959s in the US as you do in Europe that is why they go for upwards of 1 mil in mint condition. The sticker price in the US was 240k back in 1986.

Though I think that the 959 is the largest step made in a long time, as far as production cars go I think that 1993-1995 was the primo, mostly due to the insane creations coming out of Japan, mkIV Supra :ylsuper: the awsome Lance Evo, the Gen III Rx7 which to this day is amongst the best handeling cars ever, the Skyline :grinyes: These cars were aroud before 93-95 but all got major improvments. Had it not been for the Gentelmans law I think we would have a bunch of production 500hp suprecars for a fraction of the cost of an S7 or a 959..