i just think it's a little too angry for me...it is growing on me the more i see it, but i just don't know about owning a car that's pissed off all the time. i mean...buck up!

The new Charger is Emo.

This is BS people bitched because the GTO didn't look like the GTO but people also bitch because the Mustangs and whatnot look to much like the older ones and have "no room for improvement". There's no way to fuckin win in this industry.

This is BS people bitched because the GTO didn't look like the GTO but people also bitch because the Mustangs and whatnot look to much like the older ones and have "no room for improvement". There's no way to fuckin win in this industry.

:iagree:

Always found that interesting.

http://www.forbes.com/2002/07/01/0701vow_print.html

Cadillac Catera
http://images.autobytel.com/cyber/189556/i2523011_1.jpg

Pontiac GTO
http://forums.autoweek.com/servlet/JiveServlet/download/9-21784-486344-20309/2005%20Pontiac%20GTO%20Front.jpg

tweaking of 10 year old chassis and not so 'modern muscle car' styling.


Not exactly...

In 1994 Opel brought out the brand new Omega B that replaced both the Record and Senator models and ended the inline 6 engines for Opel, using a new V6 and I4 engines (It was also sold in the US as the Cadillac Catera). Again Holden decided to save money by using the wind tunnel tested and developed ‘shape’ of the new Opel. But it again had to widen it. This resulted in the new 1997 VT Commodore using a stylized copy of the now 3 year old Opel Omega. But again locally designed suspension and other locally sourced parts had to carry over into the new design. Again, only the doors were to be shared with the Opel, as well as a strengthened and modified copy of it’s independent rear suspension (which had been reengineered into a unique Holden version during the previous body) was used. However, as the body team worked on the style of the new VT Commodore (from which the Monaro/GTO was later engineered), even the rear door skins and glass were reshaped and so only the front doors were common with the Opel Omega B/Cadillac Catera. And of course the Holden Commodore now used the Buick 3.8 pushrod motor (with and without supercharger) and the Chevy Corvette LS1 engines matched to locally designed and sourced drivetrains and brakes etc. This also required a totally unique floorpan and framework than the narrower and lighter Opel/Catera.

To reaffirm that the Commodore / GTO and Omega are two different engineering products, you can visually see that the Commodore is a much wider and bigger vehicle than the Omega. And look at things like the roof of each car. Note that the Omega’s roof is a single pressing while the Commodore has a three-piece pressing. Given that the passenger cell is a major frame component in a monocoque design - this is a significant difference on it’s own. But also follow the carriage line under the side windows forward to where they intersect the front. Note how this virtually straight line sweeps over the top of the Omega headlights yet intersects the side blinkers on the Commodore. And the bonnet shut lines on the Commodore are more inboard than the Omega’s. This is because the entire shape of the front and even the substructure in the Commodore are different And underneath is even more different. A car needing to carry a heavy cast iron 5.0 and 5.7 Holden V8 (and then the 5.7 LS1) has to have a different frame from a vehicle that uses 4 cylinder engines and whose heaviest engine is an alloy 3.0 V6.

Here's what GM needs to do. Make a killer car in the family sedan market. Like a Malibu or Impala that will kill Accord/Camry sales. Not just a newly redesigned car that is still getting beat by a 4 year old Accord. They need something that nobody will have questions about that is better. Once they have that, they can focus once again on the sports car market.

A new rwd Impala could share a chassis with a new Camaro.

A new rwd Impala could share a chassis with a new Camaro.


IMO it should be RWD, but probably a little bit shorter. A V6 engine should get about 40 mpg while offering a 4-cyl version that got 45 mpg. 4 cyl should come with 5 spd auto or 5spd manual, while 6 cyl version should come with 6 spd auto and 6 spd manual. Horsepower figures should be 180 hp for 4cyl, and 250 for 6 cyl while keeping weight down to 3300-3400 pounds. A lot of money should spent on the interior so it doesn't look plasticy and offer luxury items such as XM, heated leather seats, navigation, etc. Now place each of these $1-2000 under what a comparable Camry/Accord costs and spend their advertising dollars advertising comfort and reliability instead of horsepower. That would save them no doubt.

V6 engine should get about 40 mpg and 250hp for 6 cyl

thats asking an awful lot... especially from gm

thats asking an awful lot... especially from gm


even Honda and Toyota would be hard pressed to make a Non-Hybrid V6 to make 250hp... and get 40mpg.

I'm getting really tired of the 300/300c/Charger/Magnum platform.

Yeah, they should go back to fwd. :screwy:

New GTO coming

"Lutz confirmed that the GTO was “only ever off for two months, but that break has enabled us to get a more feasible program up.” The program he points to is General Motors’ Zeta rear-wheel-drive platform, which is being developed by Holden in Australia and set to underpin the new-generation Commodore due to be launched in August.

Besides Camaro and GTO, other models set to be based on the Zeta platform are upcoming replacements for the Chevrolet Impala and Monte Carlo, and a new car called the Buick Statesman, according to Lutz."

- http://autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060302/FREE/60302001/1039

I don't think Zeta will ever happen. GM will not be able to afford it.

I don't think Zeta will ever happen. GM will not be able to afford it.

they had better make it happen if they want to keep their heads above the water. it's no secret that america wants to go back to rear drive cars. just look at the success of the LX platform (300c/magnum/charger).
i was reading a column in motortrend not too long ago and the writer argued that the enormous popularity of trucks over the past 15 or 20 years shows that america never really lost it's love for rear drive, V8, automobiles.

it sounds like GM is pretty serious about the Zeta platform

I don't think that the average Joe cares as to whether he's driving fwd or rwd. I don't think that the 300C/Magnum/etc had success because of the simply fact that it's rwd. It probably had to do more with the styling than anything else.

I don't think that people really care that much about V8s anymore. Look at Honda and Toyota. Honda has never made a V8 that they put in a production car, and even though Toyota has V8s, they don't stick it in everything and anything, and yet they're selling cars like hot cakes.

I don't think that the average Joe cares as to whether he's driving fwd or rwd. I don't think that the 300C/Magnum/etc had success because of the simply fact that it's rwd. It probably had to do more with the styling than anything else.

I don't think that people really care that much about V8s anymore. Look at Honda and Toyota. Honda has never made a V8 that they put in a production car, and even though Toyota has V8s, they don't stick it in everything and anything, and yet they're selling cars like hot cakes.

I completely agree with this. One of the biggest mistakes that car guys make (myself included) when talking about the auto market is to think that everyone thinks like we do and has the same priorities that we do. If everyone thought like we do, we would see a lot more Evos, STIs, Camaros, Mustangs, S2000s, etc around, but as it is, the mainstay of the car market (in America) is the family sedan and pickup trucks.

The 300/300C is selling well, but it is far from being a front runner in its class. In February, DCX sold almost 13,700 300s, while Honda sold over 25,000 Accords, Nissan sold about 20,000 Altimas, Hyundai sold over 13,700 Sonatas, and Toyota sold 27,000 Camrys. As much as we love RWD platforms, they are hardly the future of the mainstream sedan.

they had better make it happen if they want to keep their heads above the water. it's no secret that america wants to go back to rear drive cars. just look at the success of the LX platform (300c/magnum/charger).
i was reading a column in motortrend not too long ago and the writer argued that the enormous popularity of trucks over the past 15 or 20 years shows that america never really lost it's love for rear drive, V8, automobiles.

it sounds like GM is pretty serious about the Zeta platform

man, this guy just got :owned:.....oh wait :uhoh:





that's my story and i'm sticking to it!

man, this guy just got :owned:.....oh wait :uhoh:





that's my story and i'm sticking to it!

honestly, i think theres some middle ground here, i think you make some good points, and clawhammer and dinan make goods points. i dont think a lot of people care if its rwd though, some people in the snowbelt region would probably rather have fwd. but at the same time i think a lot of people would prefer rwd...

The 300/300C is selling well, but it is far from being a front runner in its class. In February, DCX sold almost 13,700 300s, while Honda sold over 25,000 Accords, Nissan sold about 20,000 Altimas, Hyundai sold over 13,700 Sonatas, and Toyota sold 27,000 Camrys. As much as we love RWD platforms, they are hardly the future of the mainstream sedan.

The Accord and Sonata don't compete with sedans priced above $30,000 like the 300C and 300C SRT8.

The Accord and Sonata don't compete with sedans priced above $30,000 like the 300C and 300C SRT8.

That wasn't the point. That being said, what he was saying is that nowadays most people are looking for a good family sedan, or commuter car. Performance sedans aren't exactly going to be the at the top of the market in the years to come. Granted, no the Accord nor Sonata will never compete performance for performance witht the 300C, Charger, SRT8's or anything in that class. But, the performance sedans will never sell like the Commuter/Family sedans do.

The 300/300C is selling well, but it is far from being a front runner in its class. In February, DCX sold almost 13,700 300s, while Honda sold over 25,000 Accords, Nissan sold about 20,000 Altimas, Hyundai sold over 13,700 Sonatas, and Toyota sold 27,000 Camrys. As much as we love RWD platforms, they are hardly the future of the mainstream sedan.

but how well has the impala and monte carlo sold? i haven't researched it myself, but i'm guessing not as many as GM would like.
those cars can't compete with Accords and Altimas as is. there needs to be some major changes to jumpstart excitement in domestic family sedans. the LX platform cars started it and i think the zeta platform can continue it.

something interesting i read in R&T. the new corolla only gets 34 mpg, didnt they used to get like 42 or something? apparently they are going after hondas customers.

on the subject of domestics having problems. i think dodges current platform is getting old, they need something new. i personally have never seen why they are so appealing. all gm and dodge are doing is sticking a R/T or SS sticker on everything. ford on the other hand i think is heading in a different direction, in the future i think it will show.

Yeah, they should go back to fwd.
As much as I hate to say it I really think they should for the lower displacement engine versions. Honda, Toyota, and Nissan all control the family sedan market using less expensive FWD cars. Trust me, I like RWD, my M3 is RWD, but I really don't see the need for a 200hp or a 250hp family sedan to be RWD. Most of the buyers won't care for this market. As for the 300C and the SRT8, yes, they need to be RWD, its really tough to make a FWD car with 300+ hp drive properly.

The Accord and Sonata don't compete with sedans priced above $30,000 like the 300C and 300C SRT8.

By far the vast majority of 300s sold are the 2.7l and 3.5l models, not the 300C and the SRT8. The 2.7l and the 3.5l V6 300 models correspond directly to the Accord EX and the Accord EX V6 as well as a fully loaded Sonata LX V6. You know what? If you take out sales of the SRT8 and the 300C, then my arguement looks even better because 300 sales will drop even further. My point was simply to show that the RWD chassis isn't quite as big a deal as many of the auto magazines and DCX make it out to be. The 300/Magnum/Charger are interesting cars, but the market is dominated by FWD cars and probably will be for a while.

how well has the impala and monte carlo sold?

Chevy sold about 18,700 Impalas, 14,600 Malibus, and about 2,600 Monte Carlos last month. Not bad at all, not great, but not bad. The only problem I have with this specific set of numbers is that alot of Impalas and Malibus are sold as fleet cars to police departments, other government agencies, and rental car companies.

Sales of the 300 were 50/50 for V8/V6 models when it first came out. I'm not sure about now though.

Chrysler needs a smaller sedan than the 300.

Kind of off-topic. Where do you find out how many vehicles each manufacturer sold?

Kind of off-topic. Where do you find out how many vehicles each manufacturer sold?

http://www.theautochannel.com/

You have to do a little searching around, but early every month each manufacturer announces sales figures.