Your input is wanted

Ok everyone, heres whats up. After plenty of arm twisting, my girlfriend has finally convinced me to write for the school's political newspaper, which she is part of the managing team. So after thinking a bit about it, I decided to write on what I know and understand: Irish Politics and Cars. Seeing as that no one at my school could give a rat's ass about Irish Politics and it is very possible that Tony Blair is gonna be showing up before the year is over, I don't think I wanna put my name on any article that supports Sien Fein or any of their ilk.

So I decided on cars.

My article is basically going to be how the American mindset has prevented us from reaching a point of mass amounts of hybrid and uber fuel effiecient (i.e. 50mpg+) vehicles being produced. So I want your guys opinions. What do you think? We have a President who, in his last State of the Union Address, claimed we are addicted to oil, yet GM and Dodge are both bringing back iconic sports cars that will have big ol' V8s in them. Will a gas tax help? How would this affect you and your car? Would you support it, or any other actions that would get us down from 20.3mbd to 14 or less mbd? Any input is welcomed, and hey, you might just get your name in the paper!

Just a heads up to the mods, I posted this in here as opposed to the political debate section becuase:

A) I want to avoid posts like "GEORGE BUSH IS TEH SUCXUORZ AND HAXXORZ EVIL DEVIL!!!

and

B) Most people in this section drive their cars pretty hard, and I want the input of people who would most likely need to change driving habbits if they were forced to pay five bucks a gallon or forced into a hybrid.

First off I like am a supporter fo the president, second off, I like fast cars and I haven't seen any fast cars that make 50 MPG. A gas tax would only piss me off. I really don't see that happening. I think changes should be gradual. If cars are getting more efficient...awesome but don't punish people for having used cars. If the auto manufacturers change their acts now than in 10 years there will be 90 percent fuel efficient cars on the road anyway.

I was thinking about making a post like this. Yesterday I was at the Chicago Auto Show, and noticed that almost all the Japanese car manufacturers are almost silently introducing sub-compact cars. Honda Fit, Toyota Yaris, Nissan had something, Suzuki had something, etc. What are the domestic car companies doing? Putting V8s into everything with 4 wheels. Seriously, the average Joe doesn't need 300+ hp to drive his fat ass to work. He needs something that gets 40-50 mpg. If the price of gas keeps going up, the domestic car companies will go bankrupt. And yes, they will deserve to, because they're not giving the consumer what they want, and the consumer will go off and look elsewhere for a car.

I wasn't around for the 70s, but from what I read, this is the 70s all over again. The Japanese are introducing fuel efficient cars, and the domestics are introducing cars with more and more horsepower. I think back in the 70s, GM had like a 40% market share, today they're down to 20%. Unless they improve their cars, and stop blaming their problems on their unionized workers, they will go bankrupt. If I was in the market today for a new car, I would not even want to visit a GM lot, simply because I wouldn't know if they would be around to honor thier warranty.

I beleive that Ford is actually on the right path. They're not in the horsepower war, I mean the Fusion isn't making 300+ horsepower, instead they're focusing on reliability/quality and efficiency. But I don't see any positive product coming from GM for the average Joe in the near future.

Musashi and i were speaking about this earlier last week, there are alternatives to using petrolium as our fuel source, the problem is that the US as a whole does not want to change, when i say whole i mean the companies not the people. the only way for us to change what we have is if the petrolium companies would say "okay lets do it".

We have engines out there that use other means of fuel such as ethinol and hydrogen, that even raise the combustion rate and allow for more horsepower out of the factory engine. I saw a show on the discovery channel where they too the engine that used hydrogen and it produced close to 300 HP and still got good milage, somewhere around 400 miles to the tank out of a 12 gallon tank. On top of the milage the engine was good for emmisions as well, instead of smoke coming out it was water vapor.

BMW Began working a 700 series called the 750HL that used Hydrogen fuel and sunlight to power the 12 cylinder combustion engine 5.4liter car. The car is now production ready but they need the okay from pretty much every petrolium company out there. Now i know what youre thinking, hydrogen is extremely explosive, they have made a gas tank that is insulated enough to keep the hydrogen -253 degrees celsius where it would not explode. BMW even produced a hydrogen powered mini cooper that made more horsepower off the factory engine with better gas milage and no emmisions.

I suggest looking into stuff like this for your article and incorporate it as an example on alternatives that the US petrolium companies are preventing us from accomplishing. I am not fond of bush, but he has nothing to do with the actions that the companies take, he cannot force them to give in because they are independantly owned.

ok i like this stuff... i did a report on the physics of hydrogen power. dont know if you know this, but gasolines efficiency in combustion, towards generating power to move the car is about 23%, hydrogen fuel cells are about 60% effiecient. and hydrogen in an internal combustion engine are 25% more efficient than gas. just some stuff on hydrogen...

as far as a gas tax goes, i think that would just piss people off, gas prices have gone way up and that hasnt stopped people. so i dont think it would matter that much.

clawhammer hit on this, domestic companies (only gm and dodge) are going backwards in efficiency and technology. they stick a frickin hemi or ls1,2,6,7 in everything now. however ford is different, theres and article in time magazine you might want to look at, bill ford is on the cover of it. not many people know this but bill ford is actually an environmentalist. ford has the largest commitment out of any company, not just domestics, to build hybrid cars. not to mention they arent going back to the 60s with 427cid pushrod engines. but since this is on the domestic companies i HIGHLY suggest you read the article in time magazine. something else that was in the article that is somewhat interesting was the concept F-150 they had that had an engine that could run on gas, ethynol, and hydrogen interchangably.

another thing id like to add is that over time i think oil companies will be forced to lower their prices because the demand wont be as high due to hybrid and hydrogen vehicles. im a believer that they are just price guaging because they can, gasoline in america right now is an inelastic product. basically, i think the industry will fix itself, special regulations or taxes wont be needed.

That was in an issue of time? Which one so I can look it up. Also, I believe I read somewhere that the SAE did a test and found that smaller turbocharged engines are more effiecient than big displacement? Any idea on that? And keep the opinions comming, they are really helping me shape out the article. Just a heads up, after I write it, if you guys want I'll post it up here.

I read about the price gauging report, they researched how long it would be before we actually run out of petrolium since the companies keep saying there is a shortage, they found out that we and our children would be long dead of old age before we actually do run out of oil.

As for smaller turbocharged engines being more efficient then big displacement ones, look at the srt-4's as an example, they get 22 mpg when compared to say a mustang gt which gets 17. the SRT is quick, fast, and light and still gets a good ammount of fuel efficiency, while the mustang is fast but heavy inturn needing more fuel to haul it self around due to its big engine.

Another example is my car which is 1.8turbocharged and i have a 14 gallon tank and i get about 300 mile per tank when compared to musashis who has a 17 gallon tank with a 3.0 engine and gets only about 250-280 to his tank, this is an example to show that the bigger tank is to make up for the lack of fuel efficiency. And to top off this comparison we get the same amount of whp but my car is faster.

This was an interesting read about hybrid cars from C&D. Keep in mind that Yates is a bit of a raving uber-conservative that owns an H2. Still, his facts are pretty accurate.

http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=27&article_id=9844

He makes a very good point when he says that the only Hybrid selling really well is the Prius, while the Accord and Civic hybrids arn't faring as well. He attributes this to the fact that the Prius looks different from a regular car. It has become an icon of the hybrid market. When people see you driving a Prius, they know that its a hybrid, while you can't tell the difference between a Civic and a Civic hybrid. He is afraid that people are only in for the hybrids for the statement they are saying about themselves, not to help remove us from our "Addiction to Oil."

C&D also had a couple of articles on actual working H20 cars.

Honda FCX
http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=3&article_id=9640

BMW H2R
http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=30&article_id=8655

Im not totally convinced that a gas tax is what we need. What I think we need is a two staged attack on gas consumption. While hydrogen is great, it is a little too far off. Right now, the answer is hybrid cars. We need to make it easy as possible to buy hybrid cars over regular ones. Last year some Californian congressman tried to pass a bill making hybrid owners pay extra taxes because they were paying less at the pump. This is unacceptable. If we can make hybrid cars as inexpensive as a gas alternative, they will sell better. We need to encourage hybrids, not disencourage gas. Right now, people are paying a few thousand more for hybrid cars. Hybrid cars will cut our need for gasoline more and more until we are able to produce hydrogen cars effectively. For some really good reading on the subject, look up a guy named Thomas Friedman.

As for smaller turbocharged engines being more efficient then big displacement ones, look at the srt-4's as an example, they get 22 mpg when compared to say a mustang gt which gets 17. the SRT is quick, fast, and light and still gets a good ammount of fuel efficiency, while the mustang is fast but heavy inturn needing more fuel to haul it self around due to its big engine.


your on to something there... but the gt isnt just heavier cause of the engine, its a bigger car.

one problem with hybrids right now is that they are a little over priced. i forget the model, but i remember reading about a car and the hybrid version cost $10k more... over the next tens years or so the price you save on gas still doesnt make up for the extra cost difference.

heres a link to the time article, but you cant read it unless you buy 6 issues for 2 bucks... maybe you could just go find it at a library or something http://www.time.com/time/archive/preview/0,10987,1151755,00.html

Dinan, I actually read a lot of Friedman's stuff, lol. I think he's pretty good and on track. But keep the opinions comming!

I've got two words.

Turbocharged Diesels... or is that three words?.. whatever.

They're highly efficient, and can make damn good power when needed... plus they sound cool.

For example... Dodge Ram Heavy duty trucks with the Cummins Inline 6 Turbo Diesel. They make 325hp, 615ft-lbs. The trucks weigh in roughly at 6100lbs for the 4x4 Quadcabs with a shortbed.

My buddies Dad has a 2004 Dodge Ram 2500 4x2 Quadcab. He averages 18mpg city, and gets 22mpg highway. That's not bad for a full size truck. Especially considering the same truck with the with a Hemi is hard pressed to get 14mpg in the highway.

Also, my buddy, same guy... just bought himself a 2006 Dodge Ram 2500 4x4 Quadcab, also with the Cummins Turbo Diesel. It's new, and needs to be broken in. But currently it gets roughly 15-16mpg highway, they take about 10,000 miles to break in.

That's damn cool, if I do say so myself.

With a Banks Kit, you can up the power 125hp, 260ft-lbs. with a turn of a knob. Then, you can turn it back, and be back to stock power and milege...

mmmmm perfection...

ok... sorry... it's just my infatuation with Dodge Rams with the Cummins... I'll go hide in my moderator corner now.:)

I've got two words.

Turbocharged Diesels... or is that three words?.. whatever.

They're highly efficient, and can make damn good power when needed... plus they sound cool.



turbo diesels are effective when it comes to gas milage but the problem with those lies in emmisions, and the fact that most people are not going to spend the money to buy trucks. Dont get me wrong, i know they have alot of potential whenit comes to modding but that isnt the subject here. The subject we are speaking is fuel efficiency and a little bit of emmisions as that comes into play when speaking of other means of fuel.

^ yes diesel is nice, im anxious to see how the new audi diesel race car will do in lemans. they have already discovered diesel in europe... isnt that the majority of what sells over there? i know they offer the focus over there with a 1.4l turbodiesel.

I'd actually like to agree with Redneck and expand on his ideas. We are underutilizing diesel engines in the US. When you compare BMW's European 320i ES with the 320d ES, it makes almost no sense not to get the diesel. The 320i gets 38mpg and does 0-60 in 9.0. The 320d gets 48mpg and does 0-60 in 8.3. There is a 2,000 pound (in the UK) difference between the two favoring the 320i, but I'd be willing to bet you would make up the difference quickly when it comes to prices at the pump. You also pay a higher C02 tax on the 320i then the 320d. In fact, the only gas version of the 3-series that beats the diesel version is the 330i over the 330d.

Diesel could be just as effective as hybrids at reducing our reliance on middle east oil, while keeping much of the performance. If you still doubt diesel's potential for performance, watch Audi's R10 prototype at LeMans this year. Thats right, its a diesel.

Audi already has a badass diesel....

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6784354703472305949&q=Top+Gear

800 miles on a single tank. Damn impressive...


turbo diesels are effective when it comes to gas milage but the problem with those lies in emmisions, and the fact that most people are not going to spend the money to buy trucks. Dont get me wrong, i know they have alot of potential whenit comes to modding but that isnt the subject here. The subject we are speaking is fuel efficiency and a little bit of emmisions as that comes into play when speaking of other means of fuel.

Then, for you, I've got two words again. Bio-Diesel.

Bio-Diesel runs off of a mixture of regular fossil fuel diesel and organic fuels made from corn oil. Burns super clean, and the exhaust smells like french fries. No shit.

Imagine that, sitting in traffic with cars running on bio-diesel... everybody would be hungry for McDonalds fries. :lol: They'd double their profits in a year.

nice thread. I'd add, but most of what I'd want to say has actually already been said. Definantly subscribed though. cassiesman, I think we'd also be interested in seeing your article when you are done...so definantly post/link it.

The single thing I don't agree with on this thread is Gotian's final thought in his first post, "I am not fond of bush, but he has nothing to do with the actions that the companies take, he cannot force them to give in because they are independantly owned."

My personal opinion is he is as involved as he can be without being the majority shareholder. Since he was 20, he has been in a never-ending circlejerk with the same group of oil tycoons. Whether it be through hard currency, donations, or favors...they both scratch one-anothers' backs far too often. I 100% believe that influences his policies alot more than his care, or lack-there-of, for the environment. So while I think he could bring about change, he wont, he makes more money from them then he does as president. Just my .02
If you really want examples, I'll be happy cite some, as I've read a decent amount of literature on the subject. But I don't know how political you want to get with this...

And just one final thing. Please people, don't get upset if somebody presents views different to those of your own. Politics can quickly turn into an ugly argument, so let's all try and keep it civil from the beginning. thanks.

Wow this is a real good topic, and something I wish I could talk about more in school

The first thing I want to say is that nobody can accurately estimate when we are going to run out of oil. People can estimate but their estimates are bordering on guesses. This is because the middle east oil producers won't tell anybody how much oil is left, and because nobody really knows when the next major oil reserve will be found, or if it will be found. So you really can't say when were going to run out of oil

The next thing is the gas tax. I am not too sure about the details of it, but I don't think a tax that brings gas up tp $5 will ever make it into practice. The US economy is much too dependent on gas to shoot up prices that high. Gas is relatively inelastic, but only to a certain point

Last is gas vs diesel vs hybrid vs hydrogen.

Hydrogen - Personally I think its out of the question for a good long time. The initial capital required to set these facilities is absolutely huge, and theres no company on this planet thats stupid enough to actually invest in this. The only organization that would is the US Government and their a tad too busy fighting wars and running huge deficits to even consider it

I think hybrids and diesels are definately the future as companys work with the technology to make it more fuel effecient, more powerful with no increase in size, and more reliable...in the same fashion as the gas engine

but what about this? Hybrid-diesel? think of the economy on that

but what about this? Hybrid-diesel? think of the economy on that

I actually think Mercedes-Benz has already started working on that. I think they called it Bluetech, and they equipped it on the new S-Class. I don't think its available on the market yet, but it is an interesting concept. I'd love to see the MPG on a small car using that technology.

I actually think Mercedes-Benz has already started working on that. I think they called it Bluetech, and they equipped it on the new S-Class. I don't think its available on the market yet, but it is an interesting concept. I'd love to see the MPG on a small car using that technology.

that would be really interesting. ^

going on igovert500's post. i dont think the government needs to get involved at all, i believe that the industry will work itself out. more people are going to start buying more fuel efficient vehicles and alternative fuel vehicles, the oil companies will be forced to lower gas prices. gasoline will eventually become more elastic.

next point, i am fairly convinced that hybrids and diesel are only short term. the real future here is in hydrogen. the capital is huge yes, but do you know why? its because they havent found a cheap way to make fuel cells, and they havent developed a good way to store it on a car for a internal combustion engine. the problem with storage is that hydrogen has a very low energy density. i can post graphs on the subject. fuel cells cost to much. people are researching these problems though, and eventually someone is bound to make a breakthrough. eventually it will become practicle. we already know the technology works and for that matter works better than gasoline.

What Red was talking about with the mixing of the Bio-Diesel Trucks, well I acually saw that on the show Trucks where Stacy David showed you exactly how to make it, and even gave you the number to call in and get the mixing machine and everything. It was incredible. And he even showed you how well it ran. It was actually much more efficient than being run on gasoline. I can't remember how much more mpg he had, but I know it made a huge difference. And basically, you are using old grease and a few other products to mix it. Which all of this, can be bought at the grocery store. I'll try and find it somewhere. I think it turned out to be like 80 somewad cents to make your own gallon.

So in truth, those Turbo Diesels are something to look for. And I would also like to agree with Red on this matter. They are very, very efficient. :)

dang, and we were just talkin about this in school with my uber-earth friendly geography teacher. did u guys know that chicago is getting hydrogen busses? thats one step towards stepping away from the oil. i agree about the hybrids, but regualar gasoline will be around for about 100 more years at least in american cars. i can see hydrogen taking over, but it is a matter of time untill they are mass produced because of the high demand of them isn't here yet, the gas stations are going to have to add hydrogen pumps, and that hydrogen is cleaner. Just wait to see all those enviromentalists all over the TV and news saying we told ya so. I wonder if there will be a device that will take water and seperate the oxygen from the hydrogen that you can just fill up your car with...no more 'gas prices' even though i though some companies have those in their semi's already i think, ive heard that somewhere before...

but there is one question from me reguarding hydrogen.....
what is going to happen to turbochargers since they run off the cars exhaust to run it back through the engine to create power? i thought water was bad for turbos...and seeing that hyrdrogen produced water vapor after being in the combusion cycle....

What Red was talking about with the mixing of the Bio-Diesel Trucks, well I acually saw that on the show Trucks where Stacy David showed you exactly how to make it, and even gave you the number to call in and get the mixing machine and everything. It was incredible. And he even showed you how well it ran. It was actually much more efficient than being run on gasoline. I can't remember how much more mpg he had, but I know it made a huge difference. And basically, you are using old grease and a few other products to mix it. Which all of this, can be bought at the grocery store. I'll try and find it somewhere. I think it turned out to be like 80 somewad cents to make your own gallon.

So in truth, those Turbo Diesels are something to look for. And I would also like to agree with Red on this matter. They are very, very efficient. :)

okay i had said this before, the problem with turbo diesels are the emmissions, those trucks produce more fumes then 10 chain smokers put into one room. even if you put them through emmisions check it still wouldnt help.

and to answer chiquae's question, if we run hydrogen we wouldnt need turbochargers for a while, but im sure someone would make one that recycles the water to help spin the turbo and then shoot the water out the exhaust, or you could just use superchargers, but in either case im sure the engine would be able to stay cooler and we might not need an intercooler if they do make turbos for them.

and stang, read my post earlier, i mentioned that they did make it possible to store hydrogen cells to be used in an internal combustion engine.

okay i had said this before, the problem with turbo diesels are the emmissions, those trucks produce more fumes then 10 chain smokers put into one room. even if you put them through emmisions check it still wouldnt help.

How about you do some research on the subject before you go spouting off that it's still a heavily polluting source?

http://www.agriculture.state.ia.us/biodiesel.html


Environment

Biodiesel is a renewable, biodegradable, cleaner-burning fuel. Unlike other fuel additives, biodiesel poses minimal risk to water quality.
A 100% biodiesel blend lowers carbon monoxide (CO) emissions by 44 percent, particulate matter emissions by 40 percent and sulfate emissions by 100 percent.
B20 lowers carbon monoxide (CO) emissions by 9 percent, particulate matter emissions by 8 percent and sulfate emissions by 20 percent. When B20 is used along with an oxidation catalyst, it reduces particulate matter by 45 percent, carbon monoxide by 41 percent and total hydrocarbons by 65 percent.
The ozone forming potential of the speciated hydrocarbon emissions for biodiesel was nearly 50 percent less than that measured for diesel fuel.
Biodiesel reduces air toxins by up to 90 percent.
Biodiesel has the highest energy balance of any fuel. For every one unit of fossil energy needed to produce biodiesel, 3.2 units of energy are gained.
Does not contribute to sulfur dioxide emissions


;)

here is a comparisson for biodiesel, ethynol, hydrogen, and natural gas. it has the pros and cons of each

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/biztech/articles/030217/17oil.biodiesel.htm

True, it is still a polluting source of fuel. But, it's far cleaner than pure #1 and #2 Diesel on their own.

I'm not saying it's a perfect fix, but it's a definate move in the right direction.

True, it is still a polluting source of fuel. But, it's far cleaner than pure #1 and #2 Diesel on their own.

I'm not saying it's a perfect fix, but it's a definate move in the right direction.

i agree with you there, it is a better alternative if used properly, the more biodiesel you have in your tank the less emmissions you will produce, and you will get better milage but the problem is the cost is almost double the price of diesel 1 & 2

here is another site with information, this one is more specific about how each one works and it also has electricity and propane.

http://eerc.ra.utk.edu/etcfc/fuel.html

okay i had said this before, the problem with turbo diesels are the emmissions, those trucks produce more fumes then 10 chain smokers put into one room. even if you put them through emmisions check it still wouldnt help.

and to answer chiquae's question, if we run hydrogen we wouldnt need turbochargers for a while, but im sure someone would make one that recycles the water to help spin the turbo and then shoot the water out the exhaust, or you could just use superchargers, but in either case im sure the engine would be able to stay cooler and we might not need an intercooler if they do make turbos for them.

and stang, read my post earlier, i mentioned that they did make it possible to store hydrogen cells to be used in an internal combustion engine.

1st off i dont see how itd make the engine any cooler, its not like liquid water is going to be running out like a river, its all going to be vapor.

and no gotian, they havent found a PRACTICAL way to store the hydrogen. the problem that it has such a low energy density. look at these graphs

look how much more energy gasoline stores in the same volume
http://www.physicstoday.org/pt/vol-57/iss-12/images/p39fig3.jpg

with this pic, note how liquid and gas H2 arent even able to be on the graph. this is displaying how it takes much liquid or gas H2 can be stored in a cartain volume. note how much more hydrogen can be stored in a volume when combined with other elements. scientists are now working on finding a compound to store hydrogen with that it can be split from easily to form fuel cells, or to be used in internal combustion.

http://www.physicstoday.org/pt/vol-57/iss-12/images/p39fig4.jpg

The problem with hybrids are that they are only a feel good thing. They don't save any money. First off its crazy to make any mention of a dodge hemi car and a prius in the same sentence, nobody looking at either one of those cars will even consider the other. Secondly, say a hybrid costs 4-5000 more than a comparable car, Prius vs Echo now 4000 dollars of gas would go a long way in an echo. Not only that but you are still going to have to buy gas for the prius, so the problem of gas really isn't solved...the problem is still there. Also if the prius were to break I would have to take it to the dealer to work on it because there are few places that would know how to repair such a machine. On the other hand anyone can fix an echo. Unless hybrids get cheaper than the gas powered counterparts they will always be second place.

you want to talk chemistry then lets talk chemistry here, when you cool hydrogen what happens to it? It shrinks, if cooled enough it can be shrunk enough to store into lets say...um...aluminum and fiberglass where it will be kept at a constant -253 degrees below celcius where it will be able to be stored and unaffected by heat so it can avoid combustion in the tank.

It is also known that when Hydrogen is converted from a gas to liquid through condensation it becomes about 840 times larger then its original state allowing for a better supply of hydrogen.

Now as for mixing the hydrogen with another chemical, you cannot. Hydrogen is not a type of chemical that likes to be mixed with others to create a means of fuel, unless you want to run on hydrogen peroxide. The reason why it cannot be mixed is because you dilute its ability to combust properly. When the hydrogen travels to the engine it turns back into the gas state where it ignites and then is controlled by the air mixture. This is the way that it works in the internal cumbustion engines, by mixing with air by the intake system, which in this case the Intake system cools the engine quicker to prevent any unwanted igniting of the gas, once the air mixes with the hydrogen and heat it forms the water vapor that drains out of the exhaust. Also since the hydrogen has a high range of flammability it take little effort to start the ignition proccess and the car starts almost instantly.

Since hydrogen does not have the lubricating properties of gasoline when it mixes with the air, special valve seat rings are used to help this process, this was the same process when we switched to unleaded fuel.


There is so much more that i could say,but i have a report about this that was made in 2001 that if you all are interested you should read.

http://www.eere.energy.gov/hydrogenandfuelcells/tech_validation/pdfs/fcm03r0.pdf


Here is a Race car that BMW Produced that runs on Hydrogen
http://www.bmwworld.com/hydrogen/h2r_racer.htm

And here is the BMW 750hl that runs on hydrogen, gasoline, and sunlight
http://www.bmwworld.com/models/750hl.htm

Where's Andy our resident diesel expert when you need him? :frown:

you want to talk chemistry then lets talk chemistry here, when you cool hydrogen what happens to it? It shrinks, if cooled enough it can be shrunk enough to store into lets say...um...aluminum and fiberglass where it will be kept at a constant -253 degrees below celcius where it will be able to be stored and unaffected by heat so it can avoid combustion in the tank.

It is also known that when Hydrogen is converted from a gas to liquid through condensation it becomes about 840 times larger then its original state allowing for a better supply of hydrogen.

Now as for mixing the hydrogen with another chemical, you cannot. Hydrogen is not a type of chemical that likes to be mixed with others to create a means of fuel, unless you want to run on hydrogen peroxide. The reason why it cannot be mixed is because you dilute its ability to combust properly. When the hydrogen travels to the engine it turns back into the gas state where it ignites and then is controlled by the air mixture. This is the way that it works in the internal cumbustion engines, by mixing with air by the intake system, which in this case the Intake system cools the engine quicker to prevent any unwanted igniting of the gas, once the air mixes with the hydrogen and heat it forms the water vapor that drains out of the exhaust. Also since the hydrogen has a high range of flammability it take little effort to start the ignition proccess and the car starts almost instantly.

Since hydrogen does not have the lubricating properties of gasoline when it mixes with the air, special valve seat rings are used to help this process, this was the same process when we switched to unleaded fuel.


There is so much more that i could say,but i have a report about this that was made in 2001 that if you all are interested you should read.

http://www.eere.energy.gov/hydrogenandfuelcells/tech_validation/pdfs/fcm03r0.pdf


Here is a Race car that BMW Produced that runs on Hydrogen
http://www.bmwworld.com/hydrogen/h2r_racer.htm

And here is the BMW 750hl that runs on hydrogen, gasoline, and sunlight
http://www.bmwworld.com/models/750hl.htm

you are soooo totally missing the point, and not reading what i said properly.

no shit it gets more dense when it cools, but you still cant store enough of it to be practicle, you would need to refill every 100 miles even with a small engine. that is exactly what the graphs display, look at how much higher the energy density of gasoline is. that is why it is so convenient.

secondly, you dont mix it with other chemicals, you bond it. i think you know that though, just saying... if you read what i wrote you will notice that i said they are looking for a compound with hydrogen that is practicle for storage and can be split easily to then form fuel. notice how i said it needs to be split first. if you didnt look at the graph, you can store a great deal more hydrogen when it is combined in a compound.

if you dont get what im saying, then i really dont know what i can do. just look at the graphs carefully, that should tell you enough. oh yeah, i know all about the bmw race car and what not, it was the opening slide on my power point presentation on the physics of HYDROGEN power.

you are soooo totally missing the point, and not reading what i said properly.

no shit it gets more dense when it cools, but you still cant store enough of it to be practicle, you would need to refill every 100 miles even with a small engine. that is exactly what the graphs display, look at how much higher the energy density of gasoline is. that is why it is so convenient.

secondly, you dont mix it with other chemicals, you bond it. i think you know that though, just saying... if you read what i wrote you will notice that i said they are looking for a compound with hydrogen that is practicle for storage and can be split easily to then form fuel. notice how i said it needs to be split first. if you didnt look at the graph, you can store a great deal more hydrogen when it is combined in a compound.

if you dont get what im saying, then i really dont know what i can do. just look at the graphs carefully, that should tell you enough. oh yeah, i know all about the bmw race car and what not, it was the opening slide on my power point presentation on the physics of HYDROGEN power.

how about this, lets just combine our knowledge and efforts and build the engine that can do this and put it in our cars and build it for performance. Then lets mass produce them and solve the problem we have today! Deal? Im sure together we all know enough about it and can find the solution that makes the hydrogen work perfectly.

And so you know i did understand that we would be refilling every 100, to counter that the engines were designed to eventually use less fuel because you can mess with air/fuel ratio a bit more when it comes to hydrogen since it takes little ignition effort (meaning a very little spark) to make the car run effectively. When you were talking about bonding, the BMW750hl does something a bit similar where it uses the sunlight to help power the machine to heat and burn the hydrogen cells effectivly enough to get the most mpg out of each tank. But i think they were also going for performance when they built it because they used a v12 engine in there.

ok so you understand what im getting at. so basically what i was saying is that, right now the capital in producing fuel cells is huge, i didnt touch on that much though. and you cant store enough hydrogen on board a normal sized car for it to be practicle for every day use. scientists are trying to figure those two problems out though, and trying to find a suitable compound that can be split easily is one of the more promising ideas.

the issue has nothing to do with the engines themselves because those work. thats not a problem at all. problems are cost and storage.

here is a nice picture of a hydrogen fuel cell and how it works. hydrogen fuel cells are supposed to be about 60% efficient at generating electricity from the reaction, which then drives an electric motor, which are typically about 90% efficient in producing power.
http://www.physicstoday.org/pt/vol-57/iss-12/images/p39fig5.jpg

a big problem with fuel cells is that they cost $3000 per kilowatt of power, compaired to about $30 for gasoline. mass production is estimated to bring the cost down to $300, but still 10 times that of gasoline.

read the report i put up, it shows that it is possible to use the hydrogen fuel cells in an internal combustion engine and doesnt have to be an electric motor. It even shows a 1965 cobra using hydrogen as its fuel source, also make a note of how many air filters it uses, which is what i spoke about earlier.

I'm not disagreeing with anything you said, what i'm saying is that it is possible to use hydrogen by itself efficiently. Although using another compound might be a bit more efficient it will instead raise the cost of the fuel itself and raise the cost of the vehicles because there will need to be more mechanics in the vehicle, where as just making the engine ready to use the hydrogen fuel and adjusting the air to fuel ratio would be easier and cheaper .

Here's a thought, why not make what we have now better? are we really at the limit of fuel efficiency and cleanlyness with fossil fuels? Look at what ford is doing with thier Pzev motors.

Honestly i really don't think hydrogen is goin to catch on for a while. Something about keeping a highly combustible gass at a constant -253 celcius (f*cken cold as hell) doesn't sound all that easy. But i do think that hydrogen is going to be our next fuel. Its much better in every aspect for what we will be using it for. I just don't think we are ready, give it some time, let the economy change a lil and then we might be rdy.

As far as running out of gas. Whats up with alaska I know there is a bunch of oil over there. Or the massive amounts of oil off the coast of california? Or all the oil the ruskies got. I can't remeber exactly who, (i think Norway) but one of the NE european contries also have a ton of oil. I really think we will have quite a bit of oil for a while, i just don't think the middle east will have it that much longer. Who really knows though, for all we know they have so much oil left they don't know what to do with it, and are just saying there is a shortage so they can make more money on it.

Just my $.02

read the report i put up, it shows that it is possible to use the hydrogen fuel cells in an internal combustion engine and doesnt have to be an electric motor. It even shows a 1965 cobra using hydrogen as its fuel source, also make a note of how many air filters it uses, which is what i spoke about earlier.

I'm not disagreeing with anything you said, what i'm saying is that it is possible to use hydrogen by itself efficiently. Although using another compound might be a bit more efficient it will instead raise the cost of the fuel itself and raise the cost of the vehicles because there will need to be more mechanics in the vehicle, where as just making the engine ready to use the hydrogen fuel and adjusting the air to fuel ratio would be easier and cheaper .

i never said you couldnt use hydrogen in an internal combustion engine, infact i said you could. fuel cells cannot be used in internal combustion energy though because they generate electricity.... actually most of what ive been talking about is about using it in internal combustion engines. hydrogen is actually about 25% more efficient in internal combustion, which would make for more powerful cars also.

the problem now is that hydrogen by itself doesnt last long enough compaired to a gas powered car, you cant travel nearly the same distances. that is why they are looking into another way to store it. you say it might raise the cost of the fuel itself... but it might actually be cheaper, did you know that it is really quite expensive to make pure H2 with the processes that are needed to seperate it? the most cost effective way of making H2 is also self defeating, because they burn fossil fuels to create heat to boil water before they seperate it. there needs to be advancements in making pure H2. if a compound is easy to make, or natural occuring, then it could end up being cheaper. given that they figure a way out to seperate it somehow right before it is injected into the engine... so right now hydrogen is really expensive and not nearly as convenient as gas and that is really what is holding it back. eventually i think that will change though.