Signed Paperwork, Can dealer do anything ?


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mystikhalo
12-12-2005, 01:40 PM
I bought a new car recently.

I had done the negotiating phase verbally over the phone. I went down to buy the car soon after.

I walked out the door with copies of all paperwork in my hand, and the dealer received a check in the full amount from my loan officer (didn't finance through the dealer). A few days later I received a phone call from F&I, saying that they made a mistake and wrote in the starting price (sell price) in wrong.... a couple thousand in my favor...

I went home and noticed all paperwork had this (no accounting mistakes).

Can the dealer do anything? Legally and/or try illegally? :confused:

JLad10687
12-12-2005, 02:19 PM
If you have a binding, signed contract with no reference on it to any typos/mistakes, they cant do anything. They may try to bring suit against you but they wont have a case.

Just out of curiousity, what car did you get and how much?

mystikhalo
12-12-2005, 02:55 PM
F&I basically said the paperwork was done wrong, and that I owed him another $3K + tax. I said I wasn't sure what he was talking about, and didn't have the paperwork in front of me, and that I'd have to go home and look since I'm at work. I asked him again what went wrong and he just said "well, you agreed on a purchase price of $X, and a mistake was made in the sell price that was written on the contract". So I asked him if it was an accounting mistake and he said yes.

It's not an accounting mistake. He says its a mistake in the event that he put in the wrong selling (start price) of the car, there is no accouting mistake proof.

I don't know what to tell him, how to proceed?

alphalanos
12-12-2005, 02:58 PM
wow. Well knowing how dealers are they might have some kind of backdoor out of that situation....

JLad10687
12-12-2005, 03:11 PM
Call your lawyer. If you dont have a lawyer, look one up in the phone book and give them a call to see if theres anything you can do. Read all the fine print and see if there is any clause in the paperwork that mentions anything about dealer mistakes.

You have to do this one for all the people that dealerships have ripped off in the past.

P.S. Is it the coupe or sedan, and did you win the lottery or something? lol, going from driving a $3,000 car to a $30,000 is a big leap. What were you driving, anyway? And nice choice with the G35

mystikhalo
12-12-2005, 04:22 PM
Yeah, I think I'm gonna have to get legal advice... :( not looking forward to this and calling the manager back... stressing me out, but I'm gonna fight to keep the money from his alleged "mistake". I'm trying to scheme up what Im gonna say to him. I'm not sure I'm legally responsible to just "cough up" another 3K that they saw I owe them, when there's no proof. My loan officer from my credit union said they can't do anything, but how would he know 100%?

I've been looking at a new car for over a year now... I was just patiently waiting and saving. I traded in my 98 that I was having major problems with over the last couple years (122K miles on it).

I got the Sedan.

zirb
12-12-2005, 04:50 PM
I would say you are in the right. A contract is a contract. Call a lawyer and ask for advice. Most of the time they won't charge for the first visit. Good luck.

JLad10687
12-12-2005, 05:03 PM
Your credit unioun officer should know. I'm sure when you made the verbal agreement, they didnt give you an exact number so it's not you're responsibility to check their paper work. I guarentee if they wrote it for more then the verbal agreement and you didnt realize and you said that they owe you 3G they would laugh in your face. I def. dont think they have a case. They signed a legal and binding contract.

Chad82
12-12-2005, 06:52 PM
In court, written and signed and enacted contract will carry more weight than verbal agreements. When you talk to him on the phone, admit no wrong as they may underhandedly be recording the call for "training purposes".

I say bend em over. Contact an attorney and give no ground.

mystikhalo
12-12-2005, 08:06 PM
I have actually left a voicemail for a civil attorney for a 30 minute free appt. I have yet to hear back from her. I will bring in my paperwork, and in the meantime hope to try and avoid the dealer's calls if they try to...

Everyone I talk to, including the loan officer, thinks there is nothing they can do. Since the Finance manager just now calls me today (3 days later), I'm paranoid that he/dealer either a) can do something about or b) thinks I'm dumb enough to just walk down there and fork over 3K because they say so.... !

JLad10687
12-13-2005, 11:27 AM
Good luck bud...let me know how everything turns out.

turtlecrxsi
12-13-2005, 12:42 PM
They already got their money. You're paying your credit union. Legally, there is nothing they can do. Enjoy your new car.

JLad10687
12-13-2005, 01:34 PM
Im just thinking you need to look over all the paperwork and see if there is any mention of a errors. And I read in the Edmunds post that you said you fell bad, absolutley do not. As I said, I guarantee if they overcharged you 3G and you noticed 3 days later, they would say "sorry, nothing I can do". When they call you, either dont answer or answer and tell them that you have a legally binding contract and you are not going to pay any more money and you would appreciate it if they would not bother you with this anymore. If they threaten to take you to court, tell them you'll meet them there.

mystikhalo
12-13-2005, 01:45 PM
My loan officer, once again, said everything was fine. I have a receipt for the full amount check I dropped off... as well I talked with my half-sister that is a finance manager at a dealer and she just basically said I have the upper hand and that if anything, the finance manager will be fired or it will come out of his own pocket. She guaranteed me that she never makes mistakes that bad because she double double double checks and double checks again.

We think it hit the accounting dept. before it was noticed. I'm still trying to decide what to do. He's already tried calling me again just now. Harrassment maybe?

JLad10687
12-13-2005, 01:56 PM
Just think, they gave you 3G for your car, theyll most likely sell it for atleast 5G. Theres $2000. The invoice is probably about 2-3G less then what you paid aswell. So right there, they make up 1-2G profit still off of this car. Most places will not fire the finance manager over one mistake, especially when they will still be making money off the sale. If they do fire him, Im sure this wouldnt have been his first mistake and therefor deserves it for his incompetencey.

mystikhalo
12-15-2005, 07:35 PM
Update:

I've spoken to the dealer, rather argueing... The guy who made the mistake said honestly if I wanted to tell him to "screw himself" I could. He's pushing "ethics" on me.

He still wants the 3K. and if I pay he's willing to give me a free oil change and a clear bra worth $695. Clear car bra worth $695 really?

I told him I had called the other dealer and got a quote for $399. He says "well they don't offer lifetime warranty and only go up 12 inches on the car". I told him BS because I just got off the phone and they said they did!

Not only that, I called the service dept. up this morning at the exact same dealer and asked him for a quote. He tells me $175 and gives me the cell phone # of the guy who does it. I asked him why someone else at the dealer would quote me $695 and he right away says "I need to say this fast people I dont want to loose my job but, the finance guys rip people off and that that's how they make their money." He then asked me if my name was "MystikHalo" and I asked how he knew. He said he just got something this AM to type something up for a car bra for someone named "Mystikhalo". He gave me the guy who does the car bra's cell phone number to call too.

I also told him I was a little hesitant to come to the dealer for service because of how my purchase went and this whole problem. He said I shouldn't worry and that he wants my business and I shouldn't feel uncomfortable coming in *(trying to make me believe that sales, finance, and service dept's weren't that close)*. Who knows.

JLad10687
12-16-2005, 10:37 AM
Are you actually going to do anything with it now or what? The fact that the guy still is trying to milk you for more money says alot considering the position hes in.

mystikhalo
12-16-2005, 12:18 PM
Are you actually going to do anything with it now or what? The fact that the guy still is trying to milk you for more money says alot considering the position hes in.


Yup! Screw em.... The guy tries to preach ethics to me and then turns around and pulls that crap

JLad10687
12-16-2005, 02:10 PM
Thats comical if a dealer is preaching ethics. How is someone that makes it that far in their career that incompetent? It just doesnt make sense to me. Im about to go there and try to buy your Accord for $5000 and then give them .50 cents and hope they mess up lol.

JLad10687
12-20-2005, 01:54 PM
So, do you have an update?

fredjacksonsan
12-21-2005, 11:32 AM
Next time the finance guy calls, tell him you have a signed contract and the deal is done. When he starts to complain or try to persuade you, let him know that you know he was trying to cheat you on the clear bra, and that before he tried to pull that you were thinking about what he said (don't ever admit you were considering doing it) but that now that he's shown his true colors, you aren't interested in talking with him any further. Give him the same thing you wrote above, he's got a lot of nerve preaching ethics. Let him know if he calls you again you will consider it harassment.

As far as service, either do it yourself or find another dealer. I wouldn't go within a mile of that place, or let them lay a hand on my car after that.

alphalanos
12-21-2005, 03:10 PM
I agree. I'm actually beginning to fear buying a new car in the future due to these scum-like dealerships.

mystikhalo
12-21-2005, 03:47 PM
Do all the bargaining online via email. That's how I did this one, and I'd recommend it 100%. The other dealer (there is only 2 anywhere near me) gave me an outstanding quote, and I asked the other dealer to meet or match it and it all worked out very well price-wise.

As far as what the last few days have been like:

They called me last Thursday and Saturday once, Monday like 5X and again yesterday 3X. Geez!! I talked to them Monday, and told him I was done and wasn't gonna do anything about it and it's like they wouldn't accept that answer. They kept telling me that "well if it were the other way around, we'd give your money back, our dealer isn't like that" and about the $695 clear bra... they kept saying stuff like "well that's the price we charge everyone, you must have gotten a quote from a non-dealer and/or gotten the "cost" price"... which is a bunch of bull. Eventually they were wanting to call me back again in an hour and I said do whatever I'm not guaranteeing that I'll answer the phone.

I'm ignoring their phone calls now. No calls yet today, but if they keep it up I'm considering it harrassment and perhaps having a lawyer write them a nice letter (I know one whom would do it for "fun").

Chad82
12-21-2005, 10:35 PM
Good for you. If your conscience starts to rag on you or whatever, just give the $3000 to a charity.

JLad10687
12-22-2005, 10:12 AM
Well, it looks like he wasn't fired so you have no reason to feel bad.

mystikhalo
02-03-2006, 10:12 PM
Now, I just found out that the finance manager is withholding giving the paperwork to the title clerk at the dealership until he "talks to me". So now they aren't sending the title paperwork to Motor Vehicle!!

Unbelieveable!

My temp's expire early next week. I'm filing for an extension and then,... I'm not sure.

JLad10687
02-04-2006, 11:28 PM
And then court. They cant do that, you have a legally binding contract. If it proceeds down this lane, counter sue for defamation, loss of wages, everything that you can. This is harrassment and that is illegal.

P.S. Once if it does come to court, you may want to stop posting.

Chad82
02-05-2006, 01:52 PM
^^^^ Agreed.

tri-power
02-05-2006, 03:28 PM
I think you had better take the offensive now. If you have an auto loan with your bank, mean you have a lein on your title, you should inform them that their investment has been tampered with by the dealership. I don't know how it is in your state, but a car can't be registered or tagged without a certificate of title issued. So you might want to contact your DMV to see if your car is in violation then inform them of your dealership problems. If you find this to be the case, you should file a case in court against them for fraud or contract breech. Lastly I'd file a complaint with the BBB and the state attorneys office against them. Reguardless wether or not you owe them, they should not be able to hold a legal document against you.

The only other thing I'd say to do is agree to void the contract and have both your check and your original car returned. I"m willing to bet both the check and car are long gone by now. I know mostnew car dealers in this state usually only keep used cars on premises if they are 5 model years or less old. The rest usually go to auction houses.

I'm willing to bet this guy is all over you because it's coming out of his pocket, so he'll hound you till he gets it back. Because of this, I'm sure going to the manager of the dealership will 'Not' help. Id suggest he make all of his correspondence to you in writing by mail only. Including the withholding of your title. That way if what he's doing is illegal, you have mail fraud to fall back on.

I'm sure if they had any legal recourse, they would have played it by now. I"m sure they realize that they can't hold the title, or else they could get you for GTA. Hold steadfast and don't give in.

GTP Dad
02-05-2006, 06:54 PM
It appears that the dealership is the one on the losing end of this deal. Refuse to speak with anyone from the dealership from this point on as you may compromise your position. You have a binding contract signed by both yourself and an officer of the dealership. If they can't do the paperwork right and they have gotten paid for the car it is legally yours and they have no right to withhold the title of your car as this equates to extortion.

I would contact a lawyer as well as the consumer protection branch of your department of motor vehicles to report the dealership for harassment. I would also attempt to involve the legal representatives of the credit union because they are also a party in this situation since they hold a lean on the title. If it has not been filed then they are at risk of losing the money that you borrowed to purchase the car.

Finally, you have a signed contract the has been properly executed. Once this gets to court, if it goes that far, the dealership will lose because the error was theirs not yours. Good Luck and keep us posted.

fredjacksonsan
02-05-2006, 08:30 PM
Sounds like you should also report it to DMV; when you go in to get your extension, tell them the story - that the dealer wants to change the deal after the sale - and that you are not inclined to pay more, and that they are holding up the paperwork intentionally. Talk to a supervisor at DMV. I'm sure they may be able to help.

Good luck with it, looking forward to hearing all about it once the case is closed!

mystikhalo
02-05-2006, 08:37 PM
Yes, I agree with everything too. Just trying to figure out my options at this point because I really didn't think it would come to this, I didn't think they'd be this dumb. Although, maybe they think I am dumb.

I'm going to DMV tomorrow to get my temp's extended, and tell them what's happening. Then I'm calling the Credit Union who I financed through and tell them as well... maybe they can put some weight behind it??

My last step, should the two above me provide no help, is to contact a lawyer. I can file a complaint with my state's dept. of revenue for 1) Failing to deliver title within 30 days of the sale and 2) Failing to meet all terms and conditions contained in the written contract. Before I file that complaint though, I need to try and resolve it with the owner apparently. That's why the lawyer should be able to tell me what steps to take next.

HOW FRUSTRATING!!! :banghead:

:rofl:

fredjacksonsan
02-06-2006, 08:03 AM
I'd think a letter to the dealer that points out the details of the contract, date of sale, etc (with no mention of the price 'problem') which also points out that you have called them numerous times to try to get them to send the information to DMV and requesting that they follow through immediately would be enough to prove you had made the effort. But talking to an attorney is a good idea, there may be state- or legal-specific things you should do.

mystikhalo
02-07-2006, 11:26 AM
My bank tried calling them... of which there seems to be no cooperation. They told me they were hung up on more than once.

On to a lawyer. I'm working on contacting one right now. :shakehead

fredjacksonsan
02-07-2006, 11:28 AM
Hung up on...nice professional touch by the stealership!

Chad82
02-07-2006, 12:08 PM
You have no idea how giddy it makes me when I think of a dealership getting bent over on $3k. It just makes me so happy!

fredjacksonsan
02-10-2006, 04:15 PM
Hmmm no update in 3 days.....wonder if Mystik is talking to an atty?

mystikhalo
02-13-2006, 12:19 AM
:) I'm working on it. No lawyer involved yet.

I did in fact call higher up management late last week as a last result. That was a fun conversation! :shakehead He basically talked down to me, threatened me with lawyers and said he "can" and "will" hold the title. My bank is trying to get a copy of the check they cashed, as it has some restrictive endorsement on there that may deadend them too.

DMV and Attorney General's office said I need to contact a dealer's association here in this state. State's Dept. of Revenue has an investigation board that licenses the dealers here... and they take formal written complains. It will take about another week to see what they say. Even then, I think they just try to be the "liason" between the two parties, helping seek out a resolution. Either that - or if they find the dealer is not complying to law, they fine them or threaten the license or something, who knows.

That I did, typed a letter outlining the problems and dates, times, etc. of when everything happened. Hand delivered it and the gal there said if I contacted a lawyer, they'd just send me to the dealer board anyways. We'll see about that...

directory
02-13-2006, 01:11 PM
it's in their interest to check all of the figures before they sign. i'd say you are in the clear. they can try to sue you over the amont, but that would cost them just as much.

i wouldn't worry about it. play dumb when they call. pull the paper work and say "well, i don't see any mistakes"

they really can't do anything...

fredjacksonsan
02-13-2006, 01:13 PM
I still think you're in the clear....you have a signed contract, paid in full with other financing, and they are trying to back out of the deal.

If the situation was reversed - that they'd charged you a couple thou more than you agreed to, and you signed and walked out, do you actually think they'd agree to change it? Hell, no.

mystikhalo
02-13-2006, 09:58 PM
I wish it were as easy to think and say that they are at loss because the contract is signed, etc. Both F&I and Sales Managers are telling me they are not giving me the title. You'd think it'd be obvious to say "well they can't do that, they are legally bound to send the title to DMV..." BUT --- They're aren't!! I'll update with what the "Dealer Board" investigation says... in about another week.

tri-power
02-14-2006, 11:03 AM
Don't give in to their demands. They are still making money one the car. The vampires are just looking to pad their comission.

Just when you feel bad about the situation. Read this.

http://netscape.edmunds.com/advice/buying/articles/42962/article.html

tri-power
02-14-2006, 11:10 AM
The next time you talk to them, threaten to contact the local media about this. The bad image might in itself back them off. I'm suprised the bank didn't lean on them seeing as how it's their investment.

fredjacksonsan
02-14-2006, 11:13 AM
Excellent point, Tri-power....I'm sure the dealer wouldn't want this aired publicly.

Andydg
02-14-2006, 12:34 PM
The next time you talk to them, threaten to contact the local media about this.

Hell yeah! No business would want something like this getting out it should get them to back off for sure. You could also post the name and location of the stealership here so other AFers don't end up with the same problem. :wink:

mystikhalo
02-14-2006, 12:57 PM
Yes, as far as the media, I have actually called Tom Martino once and left a message, as well as sent an email. No word from them or his people yet.

I will make this as public as I can once it's all done - as I dont want to jeapordize myself if I have to eventually contact a lawyer.

Andydg
02-14-2006, 11:15 PM
Good deal man...keep us updated as much as your lawyer/you are comfortable with.

mystikhalo
02-24-2006, 06:43 PM
Well... I have an update for those interested...

I have still not heard from the Dealer Board (where I sent a formal complaint to).

Earlier this week I had a notice from the post office that I had a certified letter to pick up. I never really read who it was from until this morning when I was on the way to pick it up. It was from the car dealer and all I could think of was "Great... here's a stupid letter or bill indicating the amount that was owed to them".

INSTEAD..... I have the Certificate of Orgin from the manufacturer, with my name and address filled out on the back as the purchaser, An Application for Registration and/or Title, and other paperwork I believe is needed to get my car registered and the plates.

SOO... I think they caved in!! I was hoping they'd be fined from the Dealer Board or something (maybe they will be anyways?). I still don't know if they were forced to by the Dealer Board or whether they just gave in on their own (which I doubt). Like I said, I never heard from this Dealer Board, so I'm not sure what happened.

I called my bank up and they sounded happy because they told me they had already contacted a lawyer and that the lawyer was ready to be unleashed... HAHA.

I'm still holding my breath until I get to the DMV and make sure I actually have everything that I need. Since it's gotten to this point, I'm still paranoid. :grinyes:

Chad82
02-24-2006, 06:55 PM
That sounds like great news! When you going to the DMV (they are open on Saturdays, aren't they? Closed on Sundays and Mondays?)

mystikhalo
02-24-2006, 08:16 PM
This county they are only open M-F 7-4:30.

Ill be there first thing on Monday morning.

fredjacksonsan
02-27-2006, 07:58 AM
Sweet....sounds like they decided to cut their losses. Let us know about the DMV today!

mystikhalo
02-28-2006, 07:04 PM
I got turned away from the DMV after the clerk tried calling the dealer several to get a breakdown of the taxes. I paid the right amount, but they wanted it itemized. Since they weren't getting any help from the dealer, she told me to try and deal with them and come back. :banghead: After she was informed that the title clerk called in sick, she got transferred to the finance dept. who should have been able to help. I don't know who she talked to, but she said she's never had a dealer be so rude and uncooperative. I assumed then she had talked to the finance manager I've had the problems with. :iceslolan

Anyway, I got a hold of the title clerk myself, and she gave me the go-ahead to white stuff out on the tax receipt and write stuff in myself. So - that's what I'm going to do, as there is already white-out on it originally.

Back to the DMV tomorrow, and then I shall release the wrath of this whole mess and tell all of you reading this to stay away and spread the word about staying AWAY from this particular dealer.

fredjacksonsan
03-01-2006, 09:08 AM
I got turned away from the DMV after the clerk tried calling the dealer several to get a breakdown of the taxes. I paid the right amount, but they wanted it itemized. Since they weren't getting any help from the dealer, she told me to try and deal with them and come back. :banghead: After she was informed that the title clerk called in sick, she got transferred to the finance dept. who should have been able to help. I don't know who she talked to, but she said she's never had a dealer be so rude and uncooperative. I assumed then she had talked to the finance manager I've had the problems with. :iceslolan

Anyway, I got a hold of the title clerk myself, and she gave me the go-ahead to white stuff out on the tax receipt and write stuff in myself. So - that's what I'm going to do, as there is already white-out on it originally.

Back to the DMV tomorrow, and then I shall release the wrath of this whole mess and tell all of you reading this to stay away and spread the word about staying AWAY from this particular dealer.

I'd be sure to get the permission of the title clerk in writing to modify that document, and check with the DMV. Some official documents are invalidated if altered!

Chad82
03-03-2006, 06:07 PM
Any update yet?

mystikhalo
03-04-2006, 01:04 AM
Everything worked out!!

I got my plates!!!!!!!!!!! Yaaaayyyyyyy..... :rofl:

Chad82
03-04-2006, 02:10 AM
gotta be more of a story than that!

mystikhalo
03-04-2006, 01:35 PM
Well, I did go ahead and white-out the tax breakdown myself and re-write it in accurately so it all added up to 7.85%.

Went back to the DMV on Wednesday, and was in and out of there in 15 minutes. Got the plates, paid the DMV, have my registration just fine also.

I still do not know why they caved in. Either they were waiting until the absolute latest they could to see if they could get me worried enough to pay them the extra $3k or the Dealer Board that I sent the formal complaint to threatened them. I think I will call the Dealer Board next week and follow up and see if that was it. I am still very curious. I hope they got fined, but being the big dealer they are, I'm not sure.

ANYWAY --- for all you Colorado people, STAY AWAY from INFINITI OF DENVER!!!! Go buy your car at Peak Infiniti instead. I have been over at the other dealer myself and they dont seem to be as greedy. Perhaps because they are new and want to do right to win over customer base. These are the only 2 Infiniti Dealers in the entire Denver Metro area. Luckily, they both are about the same distance from me, so nothing outta my way.

I've never been so happy to pay almost 1K in titles in registration fees.... no more worrying...

tri-power
03-04-2006, 01:41 PM
Glad to see you have this resolved, or at least for the time being. Let's hope this doesn't pop back up again. Because you never knw, they might try looking for a way to get you back.

fredjacksonsan
03-08-2006, 09:17 AM
Well, I did go ahead and white-out the tax breakdown myself and re-write it in accurately so it all added up to 7.85%.

Went back to the DMV on Wednesday, and was in and out of there in 15 minutes. Got the plates, paid the DMV, have my registration just fine also.

I still do not know why they caved in. Either they were waiting until the absolute latest they could to see if they could get me worried enough to pay them the extra $3k or the Dealer Board that I sent the formal complaint to threatened them. I think I will call the Dealer Board next week and follow up and see if that was it. I am still very curious. I hope they got fined, but being the big dealer they are, I'm not sure.

ANYWAY --- for all you Colorado people, STAY AWAY from INFINITI OF DENVER!!!! Go buy your car at Peak Infiniti instead. I have been over at the other dealer myself and they dont seem to be as greedy. Perhaps because they are new and want to do right to win over customer base. These are the only 2 Infiniti Dealers in the entire Denver Metro area. Luckily, they both are about the same distance from me, so nothing outta my way.

I've never been so happy to pay almost 1K in titles in registration fees.... no more worrying...

Glad it worked out! Here's to having a signed contract in the buyer's favor for once.

excarsalesman
08-16-2006, 09:40 PM
can't stand to hear endless stories of dealer tricks...

quit the business and made this blog, hoping to reveal "everything."

enjoy,

excarsalesman.blogspot.com

:screwy:

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