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Blow Head Gasket or bad Intake Valve?


dbudworth
12-09-2005, 09:18 PM
I've been reading that a lot of people are having all kinds of problems with their coolant system on the 3.4L engine. Why the hell hasn't GM done something about this. I can't imagine what they pay out each year on just warranty work for this. Is there any way we can get GM to pay for the repairs if your vehicle is out of warranty. Our van only has 56K miles on it, that is ridiculous to have this serious of a problem already. Can I expect to have the transmission problems as well on a 2002 montana?

Our van has one of these problems though, but I don't know enough about the engine to determine which one it is. I finally got the lemon back in out garage tonight. It was parked about 10 miles from our house. Before I started it up, I checked the oil, it look fine, and no gunk in or around the oil cap. So I started it up, everything seem to look and run fine. No smoke or anything coming out the tailpipe. So I drove it as far as I could before the engine got too hot. When the temp gage got in the red zone, I pulled over and popped the hood. It was hissing pretty good and steam pouring out right below the power steering reservoir. Take a look at the pic to see exactly where the steam was coming out. Can someone give me a little insight as to what is wrong with our van. And when I get this fixed, should I expect more problems in the future and just dump the van for a different vehicle? Thanks in advance.
Dan
http://webpages.charter.net/dbudworth/pics/montana.jpg

dbudworth
12-09-2005, 09:37 PM
I just checked the oil cap this morning after driving it for like 5 miles before it got too hot, and now I'm seeing a very small amount of gray sludge on the bottom of the cap. More than likely to be a head gasket, huh?

GTP Dad
12-10-2005, 05:40 PM
Actually this seems more like a lower intake manifold gasket issue rather than a head gasket. The head gasket would not really show up as water in the oil. Lower intake manifold gasket issues have been an ongoing problem with these engines for some time. Good Luck and Welcome to AF!

dbudworth
12-11-2005, 10:53 AM
Thanks GTP Dad. So is this pretty difficult to fix for the average do-it-yourselfer? I really can't afford to shell out $1000+ to get this fixed.

cdru
12-11-2005, 01:29 PM
I think it actually could be either. As GTP Dad said, the location would lend itself to be a intake leak. However, I wouldn't necessarily rule out a head gasket leak. It's also possible that the steam is forming further back and just drifting upwards that way.

On a scale of 1-10, I'd rate this a 7 or so. It's not real difficult, but there is significant amount of labor to get down to the gasket. A Haynes manual at a minimum is required for the correct procedure and specs. There are numerous threads regarding the procedure with hints and tips in it.

Total cost for the gasket and all the other things you should get in the process is under $200. If you don't want to do it yourself, the going dealer price is around $800, or up to 1/2 that if you go to an independent shop.

dbudworth
12-11-2005, 02:16 PM
Thank you very much for the replies back. I've been doing some more reading on the internet and found out some people have been getting this fixed under the secret warranty or goodwill warranty (same thing). I think I'm going to see if it'll work for me first, if not, then I think I'll try to dig into it myself. Always up for a challenge, until I add more cost to myself in the long run. I'll keep you all posted. Thanks again.

GMMerlin
12-11-2005, 02:28 PM
Thank you very much for the replies back. I've been doing some more reading on the internet and found out some people have been getting this fixed under the secret warranty or goodwill warranty (same thing). I think I'm going to see if it'll work for me first, if not, then I think I'll try to dig into it myself. Always up for a challenge, until I add more cost to myself in the long run. I'll keep you all posted. Thanks again.
There is no secret warranty!
Some GM dealers can offer some relief by performing repairs under the "goodwill" policy set forth by GM.
The dealer must meet certain requirements.
Also another issue that comes into play with the offer of goodwill is your loyalty to GM and the dealer.
If you do not have a service history with GM or a rapport with the dealer don't expect much assistance.
The repair procedure is a fairly straight foreward one, but there are some areas that can get a DIY into some serious and expensive trouble

Chameleon-kat
12-12-2005, 07:18 AM
Hhmm water pump is right there also isn't it?

dbudworth
12-12-2005, 08:26 AM
No, I don't believe it is the water pump. I jacked the van up yesterday and started it up. There was a constant stream of coolant pouring down the back side of the block. I was looking up from the back of the engine, right behind the passenger side front wheel. It was coming down the block right next to the belt idler pulley. I had my neighbor take a look at it and he thinks it is the head gasket. Still hard to say because you really can't see where the source is coming from for sure. It still could be coming from the intake gasket and running down looking like it is the head gasket.

cdru
12-12-2005, 10:22 AM
Hhmm water pump is right there also isn't it?Yes, that is what the pully that a portion of the circle includes.

You can purchase a UV tracer dye at Napa for a few bucks. Toss it in your coolant and run for a few minutes. Your pretty sure it's either a head or the intake gasket. In order to get to the head you have to remove the intake, so start off with the assumption that it's the intake gasket. After you've removed the alt, upper manifold, rear valve cover and PS pump, that should give you a much clearer view as to where the problem may be at. Look for the areas with the dye. You can also buy/borrow a coolant pressure tester at Autozone. Pressurizing the system while you have a clearer view may also point to where the problem is at.

Good luck.

dbudworth
12-12-2005, 10:43 AM
Is there any special tools that are required to replace either one (head or intake gasket). I'll have to go out and purchase a torque wrench and some torx sockets, but other than that, can anyone think of any other special tools?

GTP Dad
12-12-2005, 01:40 PM
You shouldn't need anything other than what you have stated. This is a time consuming job but not difficult. One tip however, make sure you label everything when you remove it so that you can put everything back where it belongs.

cdru
12-13-2005, 12:30 AM
You shouldn't need any torx sockets. Everything is standard hex, so regular sockets will work. I would highly suggest getting a 10mm crows-foot for the 4 outside intake manifold bolts. Due to the way it's cast, they are hard to properly tighten down to spec.

In addition to labeling everything, I always have a box of ziplock baggies handy. As I remove a component, I label the bag and put all the nuts/bolts/brackets/etc in the bag. Keeps everything nicely organized and I don't have to wonder which bolt goes where.

dbudworth
12-13-2005, 08:23 AM
Here is an update for you all. We called GM directly about this, telling them that this is a very well know problem and that GM is aware of this because they redesigned the intake gasket in a later model. And told them that this does no good for us on our '02 model. They told us to take it to the dealership to get it checked out to find out for sure what the problem is, and depending on what it is, "maybe" we can cover it 50/50 with you. That is BS, I'm not going to settle with 50/50 for a very well know problem that they are aware of. They are already admitting to be 50% at fault. If GM doesn't stand behind their own products, what incentive is there for the general public to keep buying GM products? They wonder why they are hurting!!!

Depending on what the diagnosis is, if it is the head gasket, I don't think I'll attempt it, but if it is the intake gasket, I can tackle that one with help from a family member that is a mechanic if he has the time. It'll still be cheaper in the long run. We'll put up a fight with GM first. I'll keep you all posted on what happens.

cdru
12-13-2005, 10:04 AM
You will be beating a dead horse if you try to fight it. Feel free to, but GM doesn't budge usually.

dbudworth
12-20-2005, 12:35 PM
GM covered 50% of the bill, still $810 out of our pocket. Probably could have found an independant mechanic to have done it for 800-1000, but it HAD to be repaired through a GM dealer. Bunch of BS

GTP Dad
12-22-2005, 09:06 AM
Was it the intake manifold gasket or the head gasket?

cdru
12-22-2005, 10:09 AM
At that price, I'd presume head gasket. If it was just the intake, they over charged him by about double.

dbudworth
12-22-2005, 12:19 PM
Ah, yes, I failed to mention what the problem was. It was the head gasket, and I had the dealership save all the old parts that were replaced. Actually, both of them were failing. The lower intake gasket and the head gasket. I'm not wondering if it started with the intake gasket leaking, causing air to get into the coolant system, over heating the engine when my wife drove it, and then blew out the head gasket. Regardless, this is a known factory defect from GM and they should have footed the bill 100%. Does anyone know or have proof of how long the life expectancy is on head gaskets and/or intake gaskets. I may still be able to get reimbursed if I can find the right documentation.

GMCritic
12-27-2005, 04:36 PM
Consider yourself lucky. They told me the same thing, except my GM rep only said "we might be able to help you if you take it into the dealership to verify the problem" (nothing mentioned about covering 50%). Once the problem was verified I was told I was out of luck.... and I only had 40,000 miles on the engine.

dbudworth
12-27-2005, 05:01 PM
GMCritic, what was the problem, intake gasket or head gasket? And did you ever mention that you know this has been covered under a secret warranty or goodwill policy. Also, is the 40,000 just on the engine or is that for the whole vehicle as well. If that is the original miles on the vehicle, they should cover 100% of the bill then. Thats only 4k out of warranty. Our dealership told us they would cover 100% of the bill if the mileage would have been under 40k under the secret warranty. I'd call back your GM rep again.

GMCritic
12-28-2005, 02:12 PM
My van currently has 44,000 miles on it (the entire van (well, the transmission only has 7,000 miles on it now)) and has never been used to tow or haul anything (except the kids), and it well taken care of.

It was the intake gasket. I mentioned the problem to the GM rep, but she said just because they redesigned the gasket in 2003, it didn't mean that the original design was flawed. I have the story posted here:

My Intake Gasket (http://www.gmsucks.net/IntakeGasket.html)

Just a few months prior to this (at 37,000 miles), the transmission failed.. GM wouldn't help with that either.. and so I created the website above.

truc0011
12-28-2005, 02:38 PM
I've been wondering if since I have to take the intake off to do the intake gasket, why not just do the head gaskets for good measure? I guess this answers my question :)

GTP Dad
12-28-2005, 02:55 PM
Sometimes leaving well enough alone is the proper thing to do. However, it would be an ideal time to replace the head gaskets if you have the time. If you decide to go ahead and replace them you will need new head bolts since these are torque to yield and the heads will not seal properly without changing the bolts.

truc0011
12-28-2005, 03:04 PM
Sounds like you can never be to careful with the head and intake gaskets on this motor!

cdru
12-28-2005, 06:27 PM
Sometimes leaving well enough alone is the proper thing to do. However, it would be an ideal time to replace the head gaskets if you have the time. If you decide to go ahead and replace them you will need new head bolts since these are torque to yield and the heads will not seal properly without changing the bolts.I think the jury is officially out still regarding if the Montana uses true TTY bolts or TAT (torque angle tighten)

This page (http://www.pbase.com/stealthfti/hb) discusses the different tightening procedures and their differences. Basically the biggest difference between TAT and TTY is how much the bolt is stretched. TAT stretches almost to the point of yielding but still remains elastic and will return to original length if loosened. TTY bolts stretch just beyond the point of yield. It provides slightly less clamping force but is more reliable when you take into account thermal expansion of different engine materials.

My Haynes manual says not to reuse the bolts, but the wording is the same boilerplate wording that is in every Haynes manual I've ever read. I looked and never found any mention of reusing or not reusing bolts in my GM shop manual. A mechanic I talked to at a local dealership said that if the bolts were 12-pointed or allen, then they are tty while 6-sided are not. Whether any or all of this is true I can't say for sure.

1999montana
12-29-2005, 04:11 PM
I must say I found the write-up on the different methods of torquing head bolts very informative.

Being from the 'old school' of backyard mechanics I never gave the matter that much thought, until now.

Thanks Chris, for posting this.

I've saved it for future reference.

Much appreciated.

.

fscarpelli
12-29-2005, 07:19 PM
Listen Up! There is a very well known class action law suit against the makers of "Dex Cool" which is used in many GM engines since 1995.

It is well documented that the fluid becomes solidified, which affects all parts, especially the head gaskets. Common symptoms are loss of heat, overheating, blown gaskets, and at worst a cracked engine block, which is what I believe has happened to my Montana. I am pursuing recourse through the law firm that is championing this class action suit. GM has been of NO HELP...surprised? I think not.

Here is the link to the web site of the law firm. Everyone needs to get on this band wagon in order for us to win.

http://www.girardgibbs.com/

Here is the link for the form:
http://www.girardgibbs.com/dexcool.html

Good luck to us all.

chris_eitniear
01-01-2006, 11:10 PM
I have a 2000 Montana with 92,000 miles. I changed oil in it today and noticed the tan sludge on the oil fill cap and pcv valve. Yeah, I know what that means. My question is, how long can I expect to be able to run it before it goes blooey? It had about 5000 miles on the oil change and the sludge wasn't there at the last oil change in September, so it can't have been bad for that long (I haven't noticed any of the normal symptoms, except for discovering the sludge today). The reason I ask is that I'll probably be needing to take it on a 1500+ mile trip soon and I'm hoping it'll make it that long.

cdru
01-02-2006, 07:11 AM
The reason I ask is that I'll probably be needing to take it on a 1500+ mile trip soon and I'm hoping it'll make it that long.Fix it now and you should be ok, presuming it just started to be a problem. I personally wouldn't go on the trip with it still leaking.

1999montana
01-02-2006, 08:43 AM
...My question is, how long can I expect to be able to run it before it goes blooey? ....

Chris,

I think others will agree that if you even think that you have a coolant leak into the crankcase, at this stage, you are far better off to stop now and get it fixed. Engines need oil to lubricate, not antifreeze and to continue running the engine is to court disaster.

If it does go 'blooey' you can expect to replace the entire engine, not just some gaskets and antifreeze (simplified of course). Might be time for other related and unrelated maintenance anyway at 92K. May also depend on how long you want to keep the van, of course.

My suggestion; find a good non-dealer shop, (maybe someone who knows where you are can recommend one) or if you are handy with mechanical stuff, begin the repair yourself using much of the info on this forum.

.

chris_eitniear
01-02-2006, 09:23 AM
I hear you, guys. That was more or less the response I expected. The problem is I probably won't have time to fix it or get it fixed before I have to go on that trip.

Oh well, Avis to the rescue, I guess. :disappoin

GMCritic
01-04-2006, 06:56 PM
My question is, how long can I expect to be able to run it before it goes blooey?

I was fortunate that mine was leaking outside the motor and onto the ground.... oil was black as Texas tea. However, I stopped driving it as soon as I saw the leak. I made an appointment to get it into the shop and drove it there after taking it to the dealership to see if GM would offer any help (but that's another story).

The less you drive it, the less damage you'll do to your motor. The fix is anywhere between $600 - $1000.00 depending on who does it. You're going to spend a lot more than that if you loose the motor.... is it worth the risk? I'd say no. Take it in ASAP and have it repaired.

My 2 cents.

Good luck.

chris_eitniear
01-14-2006, 12:26 PM
I may have been a bit hasty. Thinking about it, the Monana is used frequently for short trips, plus it sits outside in this wacky Michigan weather. I've just checked the oil fill cap and PCV valve again, after making some trips that got it completely up to temp, and I see no sign of the tan sludge anywhere. What are the chances that what I saw was merely condensation?

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