Well a couple months ago I did the spark plug question and poll, which got active again lately, so now I thought I would do the oil and filter poll. Now, due to the NUMEROUS options behind oil viscousities and brands, I limited the poll to the most popular brands and weights, but any input is welcome obviously. Post your vote and share your experience!

(Please reply with text for any outstanding filter advice or questions... sorry, there were just too many filter/oil combinations to include the filter in the post)

*Mobil 1 Full Synthetic (Probably the best for everyday use and keeps your engine running smooth for a long time)
*AMS-Oil (Don't know much about it, but have heard very good things)
*Quaker State Synthetic (I have tried it and it worked)
*Castrol Syntec (Synthetic belnds are crap, don't waste your money)
*Pennzoil (The original is hard to beat)
*Royal Purple Synthetic (Best for racing applications)
*Other oil, conventional petroleum grade (If you change your oil every 3000 miles, then conventional works great)

I personally use regular Pennzoil in my car, for everyday use. If I were tougher on my car, I would use Mobil 1 and change the filter every 3000 miles and top of the oil. Maybe actually change the oil twice a year.

Here is some Oil for thought.
I have been doing some research and found that Shell has a product for Diesel engines called Rotella and Rotella Synthetic. The Synthetic is 5-40 grade and contains considerably more anti-wear and detergent additives than any gas only grade motor oils. According to some others that were researching, the Rotella is certified for most gas engines but is not certified for the latest revision because it contains too much anti-wear agents which could possibly result in Cat converter fouling in a oil consuming engine. So... is having too much anti-wear ingredients a good thing or bad? I thought it was a good think actually unless your engine is burning oil already. BTW Rotella synthetic is only $13 a gallon at the local department store.

Please reply with text for any outstanding filter advice or questions... sorry, there were just too many filter/oil combinations to include the filter in the postGood read on oil.
http://www.lincolnsonline.com/article105.html

Here is some Oil for thought.
I have been doing some research and found that Shell has a product for Diesel engines called Rotella and Rotella Synthetic. The Synthetic is 5-40 grade and contains considerably more anti-wear and detergent additives than any gas only grade motor oils. According to some others that were researching, the Rotella is certified for most gas engines but is not certified for the latest revision because it contains too much anti-wear agents which could possibly result in Cat converter fouling in a oil consuming engine. So... is having too much anti-wear ingredients a good thing or bad? I thought it was a good think actually unless your engine is burning oil already. BTW Rotella synthetic is only $13 a gallon at the local department store.

I just finished working in a factory for 7 years, and we used Rotella in our vacuum pumps. Imagine a 500-lb supercharger spinning at 3000 rpm for a year straight, never stopping, with no filtering... then draining the oil out to see that it is still relatively clean. I would have tried this oil in a motor if I had a chance. And as far as the catalytic converter thing... the auto companies hate that problem. Basically, a thicker oil or a conventional oil with more petroleum impurities in it will clog a catalytic converter faster than a lighter-weight, conventional oil... which is why Ford decided to go with 5W-20 synthetic in many of their vehicles... because they got tired of catalytic converter warranty work $$$

royal purple is ok, but redline and amsoil are better.

your not going to find an oil that surpasses amsoil in any market. we run them in all of our race cars and street cars! do some reading on it. its so good, that they recommed oil changed at 35,000 miles with their 0w-30 oil (filter change every 3000-5000 miles, and a drain and fill at 35,000). coming very soon (like in a week or 2) there filters are coming out that only require being changed every 15,000-20,000 miles. whats even better, is their guarentee. if your motor dies, due to wear, they will not only pay for a new motor, but also the labor to install it! they also offer a test option, where you can send them a bit of your oil. they will test it and give you a print out of the additives still left in it! that way you know exactly how your oil is doing.

they also offer a test option, where you can send them a bit of your oil. they will test it and give you a print out of the additives still left in it! that way you know exactly how your oil is doing.Kind of like asking the fox to watch the hen house. Free oil analysis isn't very good nor thorough. Just like anything in life, if you want quality, you gotta pay for it. I work in an oil analysis lab and have seen the "free" oil analysis campaign. Your basically paying for it through the cost of the oil.

no, its not free. you do pay for it. i apologise if ti read that way. no, they charge you for it. yes the oil is not the cheapest, but if you do the math, its actually cheaper to run than most other oils

This is a good read


http://www.nordicgroup.us/oil.htm

I do not own a vehicle that has less than 100,000 miles on it. I own 1 with over 200,000, 270,000 to be exact, and I use the cheapest oil. I just change it fairly regular, 5,000 miles, and i dog my vehicles.I drive 70+ and start and go with no warm up. On my last oil change I bought Fred's Brand oil for a dollar a quart. Fred's is close to Dallor general Store. I have not used synthetic oil cause its to pricey. My other vehicles have around 115,000 and does not use enough oil to add between oil changes. I own a chevy, A dodge and a Saturn. My ford blew up 2 moters before 100,000 so I junked it. So I don't believe oil has alot to do with engine wear. I think it depends on how well it was built.
BTW
I sold a Fiero with 179,000 and it didnt use any oil between oil changes either. Just blew the clutch out on it.

So I don't believe oil has alot to do with engine wear. I think it depends on how well it was built.Oil has everything to do with engine wear! Now whether a synthetic is better than mineral can be argued over and over again. nuwt, has a valid point, if you change your oil regularly then engine wear can be minimized greatly regardless of oil type. But make no mistake about it, synthetic oils DO MINIMIZE wear better than mineral oils.

I have never use any synthetic oils in my cars but i use Castrol GTX in all my cars with Fram filters and all my cars have had over 150,000 miles on them. My Trans Sport has 166,000 miles and my Neon has 180,000 miles...Last 2 cars 1990 Aerostar had 210,000 miles when sold and my 89 Reliant had 320,000 miles so i am sticking with my GTX and Fram Filters...

Just remember guys, not all synthetics are TRUE synthetics, some are just a;tered conventional oil.

The only true synthetics are:

Mobil1
Amsoil
Redline

The only true synthetics are:

Mobil1
Amsoil
Redline
Motul
Royal Purple
Neo Synthetics
Synergyn
Torco
Elf

Those are other true synthetics.

Those are not exactly easily available but Royal Purple.

Royal purple is not a true 100% synthetic. It is a Group 4 and 5 with a Group 3 basestock.

Not true PAO like the ones I have listed earlier.

Before we get into oil, let me say I have found K & N oil filters to work best under severe conditions. While Fram and Purolator trumpet claims of 96% and 98% efficiency, K & N states 90%. Sounds like the ring of truth to me!

In addition to the K & N HP3002 filters, my 400,000-mile Suburban runs on 5W-30 Castrol full Syntec. My cold oil pressure (55 lbs) and warm freeway pressure (45 lbs) is so high, I'm sure I'm wasting power turning that Melling NASCAR pump. I am interested in 0W-30 but have read too many Amsoil horror stories.

On the subject of horror stories, that's what other oil companies spread around about Syntec's base stock, until Castrol took them to court and won.
Syntec is the factory fill on my wife's 2004 BMW 325CI, I suspect they know what they're doing.

And dino oil guys, I use Castrol GTX High Mileage 20W-50 in my kids' 200,000
mile BMW 1980 and 1984 commuters, changing every 90 days with Purolator filters.

Castrol Syntec is a hydrocracked conventional oil so don't get too high on it being a superior oil.

Also, nothing wrong with Amsoil, what are these horror stories you are hearing?

Castrol didn't take anyone to court, they got taken to court and they won through a loophole in the wording of synthetic.

For the price of Syntec, you can get a REAL synthetic like Mobil1.

Hydrocracked conventional oils perform just as well as pure synthetics from what I have seen. The main difference between the two is true synthetics have a higher viscosity index, which is better.

Hydrocracked conventional oils perform just as well as pure synthetics from what I have seen. The main difference between the two is true synthetics have a higher viscosity index, which is better.

Not in the long run they don't.

Plus, you are paying top dollar, what would you rather have for the same price, a real synthetic or an altered conventional oil which through a loophole in the wording law is able to call synthetic.

It is all about comsumer marketing tactics. Castrol used to be full true synthetic, but now that they found this loophole, they didn't tell anyone and switched over to the hydrocracked version to save money but yet oddly kept the price the same....HMMM... food for thought.

What would you rather have an honest synthetic, or Castrol synthetic sneak which is the same as the other synthetic garbage posing as the PAO alternative.

For the same price, get the real deal and don't be suckered in by ignorance and corporate greed.

Not in the long run they don't.Based on what? I work in an oil analysis lab and see the data day after day. No big difference in wear metals, viscosity/thermal breakdown and/or degradation of the oil. Both are pretty consistent and similiar and this is after thousands of miles of use.

I hear what you are saying about the price, but just because it's not a true synthetic doesn't mean it doesn't perform like one.

The whole point of running synthetics is to have superior protection while undergoing long oil change intervals above and beyond the 6000-8000 miles mark.

On most hydrocracked conventioanl synthetics, you will see a TBN of around 8-9.5 range whereas with the PAO true synthetics you will see a TBN of 11-12.2 range.

TBN is the Total Base Number and is the amount of anti-wear additive added to the oil. The higher the number, the longer it can go before it drops to 1 which is when you change the oil.

Couple that with the fact that PAO based synthetics for the same money will flow better at startup and allow for flow at much colder temperatures and you have an oil that for the same price is just superior.

On most hydrocracked conventioanl synthetics, you will see a TBN of around 8-9.5 range whereas with the PAO true synthetics you will see a TBN of 11-12.2 range.
TBN is the Total Base Number and is the amount of anti-wear additive added to the oil. The higher the number, the longer it can go before it drops to 1 which is when you change the oil.I know what TBN stands for, I run them all day long :wink: ...A TBN of 1 would mean bad things for your car. The TBN is mostly used for Diesel engine oils rather than regular engine oil. How would the average person know what their TBN rating is anyway? I'm not debating which is better or which is a better bang for the buck. I am stating that after looking at and reviewing tons and tons of data they test similiar. I have also seen engines that had over 100,000 miles on them run with both the "pure" synthetic and hydrocrakced synthetic and I'd bet you couldn't tell me which engine had which oil in there!

*On another note BlazerLT, it's nice to see someone else with a knowledge of oils on a car forum.

The typical Amsoil horror story is "I changed oil in my Ford pickup, putting in Amsoil 0W-30. Immediately upon start-up I heard awful rattling, knocking sounds from the engine until it warmed up. This happened on the next couple of cold starts 'til my mechanic convinced me to drain it out and put Mobil 1 back in. The sounds went away." I notice them from time to time on various forums.

I would like to try Amsoil (have heard incredible fuel mileage increase claims) but cannot get testimonials from anyone online other than Amsoil executives or dealers.

Race shops that work on my Corvette and BMW's all endorse Redline, and I use their D4 ATF with excellent results, much better than Mobil 1 ATF. But these same guys kind of scratch their heads when I mention Amsoil and say they don't know anyone who uses it and don't know enough about it to recommend it.

I know what TBN stands for, I run them all day long :wink: ...A TBN of 1 would mean bad things for your car. The TBN is mostly used for Diesel engine oils rather than regular engine oil.

Just remember that I am not only writing a reply for you, but for anyone reading this thread which might like to see the information.

I am not questioning your knowledge at all, just laying my case and frame of mind out on the table.

On the TBN note, TBN of 1 doesn't mean there is anything wrong with an engine at all unless that TBN has gone from 12+ to 1 in 2000 miles which means the additive is being used to counteract something happening in the engine at an advanced rate.

TBN of 1 just means the oil is worn out and needs to be changed. And TBN is not only important for diesel engines, it is just as important on gasoline engines as well. Mind you I recognize that TBN might be a little more important seeing the fuel dilution that diesels introduce into the oil. TBN is the life of your oil, if you have 6000miles on your oil change and still have a TBN of 5, you still have lots of active additive left and realistically, there is still no need to change the oil. Just swap on another filter and keep on going.

TBN in my mind is one thing I always first turn to when looking over an oil analysis. I always want to see how my anti-wear, anti-foaming and overall base oil is performing and whether it is really taking a lot of the TBN out of the oil in an advanced rate.

How would the average person know what their TBN rating is anyway? I'm not debating which is better or which is a better bang for the buck. I am stating that after looking at and reviewing tons and tons of data they test similiar. I have also seen engines that had over 100,000 miles on them run with both the "pure" synthetic and hydrocrakced synthetic and I'd bet you couldn't tell me which engine had which oil in there!

This is the thing I am trying to put across, a lot of people don't know about this, but heck, they should learn seeing for the same price they are getting less potential longvity out of their oil for the dollar.

I have looked over several oil analysis results and although the wear numbers are good, the oil is worn out faster when compared to the superior PAO based base oils used in Mobil1, Redline, Amsoil and some other smaller focused companies.

*On another note BlazerLT, it's nice to see someone else with a knowledge of oils on a car forum.

Same goes for you, it is good to have a nice intelligent debate without any cheap shots and some good squabble going back and forth. We all learn and gain from this. :D

The typical Amsoil horror story is "I changed oil in my Ford pickup, putting in Amsoil 0W-30. Immediately upon start-up I heard awful rattling, knocking sounds from the engine until it warmed up. This happened on the next couple of cold starts 'til my mechanic convinced me to drain it out and put Mobil 1 back in. The sounds went away." I notice them from time to time on various forums.

I would like to try Amsoil (have heard incredible fuel mileage increase claims) but cannot get testimonials from anyone online other than Amsoil executives or dealers.

Race shops that work on my Corvette and BMW's all endorse Redline, and I use their D4 ATF with excellent results, much better than Mobil 1 ATF. But these same guys kind of scratch their heads when I mention Amsoil and say they don't know anyone who uses it and don't know enough about it to recommend it.

No offense, but there is no way that an oil change can all of a sudden cause the noises you are detailing. You might have had a defective oil filter or the oil had to be pumped up properly after being drained.

Amsoil oil although expensive is excellent superb oil that has been testing time and time again to be one of the best in the business and the thing is, the chemical composition is almost exactly the same as the Mobil1 so the difference in protection is negligible.

Castrol diehard again.

I was in Auto Zone yesterday and noticed quarts of a Castrol Syntec 0W-30.
The fine print said it was made in Germany and met the latest Porsche Turbo
specs.

I've heard oilheads raving about other German oils online, anyone know anything about this stuff? It's about 40 cents more than USA Syntec.

No, the 05 batch is not the same as the 04 and older batches. It is not the same oil and for the money, I would use Mobil1.

At least Mobil1 is a true synthetic.

No, the 05 batch is not the same as the 04 and older batches. It is not the same oil and for the money, I would use Mobil1.

At least Mobil1 is a true synthetic.

Was this a response to my inquiry about German Castrol Syntec 0W-30? If it is different than USA Castrol Syntec, are you saying it is better or worse?

I am interested in the TBN factor as it reflects life of additives. I change oil and filter at 7000 mile intervals. Can we get new and used (say zero, 5,000 and 10,000 miles) ballpark TBN ratings for Mobil 1, Amsoil and the two Syntecs? Maybe our lab tech poster can help with this.

Going a year (30,000 miles) changing only the oil filter a couple of times doesn't excite me unless it can be shown I'm throwing away oil way too soon. Why not put in totally fresh oil every 90 days? I do it myself and it's not that expensive, less than $40 a pop including K & N filter.

On a happier note for Blazer and company, I just got the latest issue of "Roundel", the BMW Car Club of America magazine. In the tech discussion section a member asked about Amsoil. The moderator said he and his service colleagues have put it in at the insistence of some customers with no negative results. They accept it as good oil but are sticking with Red Line if the choice is up to the shops.

BMW still recommends Syntec for all new models with a 15,000 mile drain cycle. It is also factory fill (wonder if they use the German stuff for this?) Could be they agreed to do this as part of Castol's sponsorship of the BMW Formula 1 team.

Was this a response to my inquiry about German Castrol Syntec 0W-30? If it is different than USA Castrol Syntec, are you saying it is better or worse?

Yes, it was different but it is nothing more than a standard Grp 3 hydrocrack anymore. Not worth the money when you have better TRUE synthetics on the market for the same price.

I am interested in the TBN factor as it reflects life of additives. I change oil and filter at 7000 mile intervals. Can we get new and used (say zero, 5,000 and 10,000 miles) ballpark TBN ratings for Mobil 1, Amsoil and the two Syntecs? Maybe our lab tech poster can help with this.

Mobil1 , Amsoil : TBN 12-12.2
Castrol Syntec: 9-10

You can't get relative TBN's for mileage ranges seeing it depends on so many factors that are different for every vehicle.

Going a year (30,000 miles) changing only the oil filter a couple of times doesn't excite me unless it can be shown I'm throwing away oil way too soon. Why not put in totally fresh oil every 90 days? I do it myself and it's not that expensive, less than $40 a pop including K & N filter.

Changing synthetic oil every 3 months is a down right waste of money, oil and resources. The 3 month myth is something that should have died in the 60s where it was put in place.

You will get no better oil performance changing the oil every 3 months, it is not a better piece of mind, it is just people still believing old myths that are no longer true, but are also used by quick change places to make more money.

Pray on the ignorant.

On a happier note for Blazer and company, I just got the latest issue of "Roundel", the BMW Car Club of America magazine. In the tech discussion section a member asked about Amsoil. The moderator said he and his service colleagues have put it in at the insistence of some customers with no negative results. They accept it as good oil but are sticking with Red Line if the choice is up to the shops.

Yes, it is good oil. In europe, they have the same oil as us yet they drive over 15,000 - 20,000 kms per oil change. Yet we are still stuck with the misinformation of changing it out prematurely.

They get just as much engine life than we do.

BMW still recommends Syntec for all new models with a 15,000 mile drain cycle. It is also factory fill (wonder if they use the German stuff for this?) Could be they agreed to do this as part of Castol's sponsorship of the BMW Formula 1 team.

Yip, you bet your ass it does. It is the factory fill and they are bed mates, for sure they would recommend each other.

Blazer LT,

If Castrol Syntec is NOT synthetic oil, then why do you say I shouldn't change it at 7500 miles? That's how far I drive in 90 days, and that is not much less than the 15,000 kms (which is 9500 miles) you mention. If I only covered 2500 miles in 90 days I would hold off on the drain.

Blazer LT,

If Castrol Syntec is NOT synthetic oil, then why do you say I shouldn't change it at 7500 miles? That's how far I drive in 90 days, and that is not much less than the 15,000 kms (which is 9500 miles) you mention. If I only covered 2500 miles in 90 days I would hold off on the drain.

Where did I say to not change it at 7500miles?

if you are running a full sythetic then how often should you change your oil. i've always just went with the 5000 km rule and i agree that it kind of defeats the purpose of using synthetic. if the life is a lot longer then maybe it will be a good idea to run synthetic other than when the temperature drops below 20 C

if you are running a full sythetic then how often should you change your oil.I know a guy who has been running Mobil 1 oil since the first oil change on his neon and he doesn't change his oil. He changes the filter every 5000 miles or so and just tops off with more Mobil 1 oil. He has put over 150,000 miles on his neon this way and has no major engine damage. I thought he was crazy, but it works from him. He also autocrosses his neon as well as taking to it the dragstrip from time to time.

if you are running a full sythetic then how often should you change your oil. i've always just went with the 5000 km rule and i agree that it kind of defeats the purpose of using synthetic. if the life is a lot longer then maybe it will be a good idea to run synthetic other than when the temperature drops below 20 C

You can easily go 10,000miles on synthetic with a filter change at 5000 miles.

If chaged properly, synthetic oil is actually a cheaper oil change.

I know a guy who has been running Mobil 1 oil since the first oil change on his neon and he doesn't change his oil. He changes the filter every 5000 miles or so and just tops off with more Mobil 1 oil. He has put over 150,000 miles on his neon this way and has no major engine damage. I thought he was crazy, but it works from him. He also autocrosses his neon as well as taking to it the dragstrip from time to time.

That would not be in the best interest of anyone using that oil seeing the addtives will not be sufficiently replenished by the 3/4 of a quart the oil filter displaces.

I highly doubt that he has done this throughout the life of the car though.

I highly doubt that he has done this throughout the life of the car though.Believe me he has!

I wouldn't deem it as being something to be proud of though.

Ok, whew lots of knowledge and I am about to ask another question, hopefully I am not starting another debate, well I guess it would be OK cause I just learned alot, ANYWAYS, I am running Mobil1 in my 89 Honda it has about 240,000 runs great, gets great gas milage, ran everyday on the Autobahn, but the other day I was a little low and put in some 15W Castrol something from a friend, I just read it was fully synthetic, because I forgot mine at the house and the German station did not carry Mobil1. Now my car smokes, just a little, but my friend noticed it, and I confirmed it. Could I have messed something up? I am going to change the oil on Saturday but I would like to know if an Engine is in my forecast. One last thing, what do the oil weights mean (ex:10W 30, 5W 30, etc.) and what conditions should they be used, it is very confusing thanks.

What color is the smoke?

One last thing, what do the oil weights mean (ex:10W 30, 5W 30, etc.) and what conditions should they be used, it is very confusing thanks.The weight is the viscosity (the thickness or resistance to flow of a liquid) rating of the oil. The W in 5W30 stands for winter, not weight which everyone seems to think. Multi-viscous oils have the capability to perform like a thin and thick oil. A 5W30 oil will perform like a 5 oil in the cold, say in the morning, and a 30 oil when the engine warms up. The thinner 5 oil will help get the engine cranked up in the cold.

I think in your Honda a 5W30 oil is good for the winter, maybe going to a 10W30 during the summer.

The weight is the viscosity (the thickness or resistance to flow of a liquid) rating of the oil. The W in 5W30 stands for winter, not weight which everyone seems to think. Multi-viscous oils have the capability to perform like a thin and thick oil. A 5W30 oil will perform like a 5 oil in the cold, say in the morning, and a 30 oil when the engine warms up. The thinner 5 oil will help get the engine cranked up in the cold.

I am sorry, but that is wrong, there is no way an oil is thinner when it is cold than when it is hot.

The 5 is a rating, not a weight. It is a relative comparitive coefficient when comparing oil that is the same brand. For instance, a 5w30 from Chevron can be thicker than a 5w30 from Castrol. You can only compare within brand and product lines.

A 5 will be thinner at a certain cold temperature than a 10. A 0 oil is thinner than the 5 at that temperature as well.

I think in your Honda a 5W30 oil is good for the winter, maybe going to a 10W30 during the summer.

5w30 is good for all year around seeing they both are 30 weights at operating temperature. A 5w30 will flow faster as startup as well, not much, but it will help.

I am sorry, but that is wrong, there is no way an oil is thinner when it is cold than when it is hot.With most oil yes that would be true. But with multi-vis oils, its not. Say my car, which has 10w30 oil in it, has been sitting outside all night in 30 degree weather...when I go to start my car up in the morning the oil will act like an SAE 10 , which has a viscosity rating of 4 and as the engine warms up the oil will act like the SAE 30 oil, which has a viscosity rating of about 12! The oil will get thicker as the car warms up!

In very cold climates, a thinner oil may be used in the wintertime and in very hot areas, a thicker oil may be used in summer. Oil chemistry has advanced from just refining oils to specific viscosities, to adding chemical agents, which control viscosity over a range of temperatures. Now motor oils have viscosity ratings such as 10w- 30w. This means that the oil acts like a thin oil at cold temperatures but at higher temperature gives the protection of a 30-wt. oil.

There are guidlines for the viscosity rating set by the SAE.
There is some tolerance for the rating so there will be some differences in one brand of 5-30 and another 5-30. The standards don't address all aspects of the oil, this is where you could find significant differences between brands.

In the case of 5-30 the oil would have the same thickness of straight 5 oil when it is cold and then it would not get thinner than a straight 30 when it is hot. So 5-30 gives you the flow of 5 and the thickness of 30 to better protect your engine. Most synthetic oils are designed around this principle, although most dino-oil uses a thin base (such as 5) and then adds polymers (plastic) into the oil. The plastic gets thicker as it heats up. These polymers tend to oxidize (burn) when the oil gets hot, so the oil gets thinner and thinner as the polymers burn out. That is part of the reason why you can go a lot longer between oil changes with synthetic, the additives that get "used" up in dino-oil are not present to begin with in the synthetic.

With most oil yes that would be true. But with multi-vis oils, its not. Say my car, which has 10w30 oil in it, has been sitting outside all night in 30 degree weather...when I go to start my car up in the morning the oil will act like an SAE 10 , which has a viscosity rating of 4 and as the engine warms up the oil will act like the SAE 30 oil, which has a viscosity rating of about 12! The oil will get thicker as the car warms up!

No but, the lower the number, the thinner the oil, seriously, you can't say that an oil is thinner when cold.

Viscisity rating means nothing, you go by the kinematic viscosity.

This is for any oil.

The 10 in 10w30 does not stand for the weight, AT ALL!

This is from Mobil1's website:

cSt @ 40º C 64.8
cSt @ 100º C 11.3

http://www.mobil1.com/USA-English/Lubes/PDS/GLXXENPVLMOMobil1_5W-30.asp

Oil is thicker when colder.

It is a coefficient, nothing more, nothing less. NOT A WEIGHT!

Anyone saying an oil is thinner when cold has GOT to be joking.

Put your 5w30 in the freezer for two hours and pour it onto a piece of paper and then do the same with oil that is 100c or 210f which is operating temperature.

The oil does not get thicker as it warms up.
It in the case of 10-30 it gets thinner but it thins as if it were 30 instead of 10.

5w30 is the weight of your oil. if you take a straight 5 oil and put it in the freezer along with some 5w30 they will be the same weight. if you took a straight 30 and put it in a stove and brought it to operating temperature with some 5w30 they would also be the same weight.

Substitute "viscosity" for "weight" and you got it.
We are now clear as Mobile1 fresh from the bottle. :)

cSt @ 40º C 64.8
cSt @ 100º C 11.3
Oil is thicker when colder. So what is the point of buying a 5W30 oil if it's thicker first thing in the morning? Why not just buy a straight 30 weight oil?

The oil does not get thicker as it warms up.
It in the case of 10-30 it gets thinner but it thins as if it were 30 instead of 10.

Actually it thins out to a 30 weight.

All oils thin out when warmer and they thin out only to a 30 weight when up to 210f which is everyone's engine operating temperature.

The 10 has NOTHING to do with weight.

5w30 is the weight of your oil. if you take a straight 5 oil and put it in the freezer along with some 5w30 they will be the same weight. if you took a straight 30 and put it in a stove and brought it to operating temperature with some 5w30 they would also be the same weight.

Sorry, but you are completely wrong.

The 5 in 5w30 has nothing to do with weight bacause if that was the case you are saying then it is thinner when cold which completely opposite of what happens.

Straight 30 weight thickens up incredibly fast as you drop the temperatures seeing it doesn't have any viscosity modifiers for colder temperatures.

15w30
10w30
5w30
0w30

The lower the number, the colder the oil can handle without crossing it pour point where it starts to gel.

That is all the difference it is. At say -15f the higher the number, the higher the viscosity (thicker) it will be at that temperature range.

AGAIN, THE 5 IN 5W30 HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE WEIGHT. ANYONE SAYING IT DOES NEEDS TO DO SOME RESEARCH AND UNDERSTAND HOW KINEMATIC VISCOSITIES WORK.

So what is the point of buying a 5W30 oil if it's thicker first thing in the morning? Why not just buy a straight 30 weight oil?

All oils are thicker when cold.

The only difference between 10w30 and 5w30 is that the 5w30 is thinner when cold, that is all. Nothing more and nothing less.

A straight 30 weight has very little viscosity modifiers to handle colder temperatures and has a lot higher pour point than a multigrade oil.

A 30 weight oil is NOT a 30 weight when it is cold, it is only a 30 weight when up to 210f.

At -10f a 30 weight will be one heck of a lot thicker than even a 10w30.

http://x10.putfile.com/3/8217410522.gif (http://www.putfile.com)

You will see what I am saying here now.

When cold a 5w30 is not a 5 weight.

Take the M1 5w30, You see at 100c which is 210f it is at 10.0cst which is almost a 20weight but is within the 9.9-12.1 cst range for a 30 weight oil.

You can see that the M1 5w30 and the M1 10w30 and even the M1 0w30 are 10.0cst at operating temperature, but look at the values when it is -20c out, the 10w30 is noticeably thicker and even llok at how much thinner the 0w30 is but when the engine is all warm and toasty, they are all being protected with the same lubrication and thickness of 10.0.

Thinner oil at startup is the best for cold start protection seeing 80% of engine wear is within 10-15 seconds of starting an engine.

And if anyone thinks a 10 weight oil has a cst of over 3000 they need to give there head a shake and shrug off common misconceptions.

Thinner oil at startup is the best for cold start protection seeing 80% of engine wear is within 10-15 seconds of starting an engine.Yes, but you are saying that its thicker when cold, so how does that benefit startup?

Yes, but you are saying that its thicker when cold, so how does that benefit startup?

I am saying thinner when compared to other oils. 0w30 is thinner when colder when compared to 5w30 which itself is thinner when cold than 10w30.

All oil is thicker when cold and if you can find a lubricational medium that doesn't do that I am all ears.

I am saying thinner when compared to other oils. 0w30 is thinner when colder when compared to 5w30 which itself is thinner when cold than 10w30.

All oil is thicker when cold and if you can find a lubricational medium that doesn't do that I am all ears.Would you agree that the "W" stands for winter?

Yes, I believe that is what it means.

I just checked this thread that I started months ago... wow you gys have been busy. Great information though! Too bad not every thread has as much tech information posted to it like this one...

A common "rule of thumb" that I think many of us learned from Dad when we were kids, was that 5w30 was about the standard to fill the crankcase with. Obviously we have all learned that depending on the engine, that can vary...

But reviewing the data in the "flow" chart above, wouldn't it be agreeable by everyone that a good all-around oil for us to use would be 0w30, period? Compareable to other oils, it is thinner at freezing temperatures, and at running temp (i.e., 100C), it is right in line with the other multi-grades. So if 0w30 offers more potential protection on a cold start but performs the same at 100C, shouldn't this grade (at least comparing Mobil1) be the all-out weapon of choice for anyone who's motor calls for a 30-wieght multigrade, period?

Unless you're living in Antarctica or Death Valley, I don't see why you wouldn't automatically grab the 0w30 the first time around...

I just checked this thread that I started months ago... wow you gys have been busy. Great information though! Too bad not every thread has as much tech information posted to it like this one...

A common "rule of thumb" that I think many of us learned from Dad when we were kids, was that 5w30 was about the standard to fill the crankcase with. Obviously we have all learned that depending on the engine, that can vary...

But reviewing the data in the "flow" chart above, wouldn't it be agreeable by everyone that a good all-around oil for us to use would be 0w30, period? Compareable to other oils, it is thinner at freezing temperatures, and at running temp (i.e., 100C), it is right in line with the other multi-grades. So if 0w30 offers more potential protection on a cold start but performs the same at 100C, shouldn't this grade (at least comparing Mobil1) be the all-out weapon of choice for anyone who's motor calls for a 30-wieght multigrade, period?

Unless you're living in Antarctica or Death Valley, I don't see why you wouldn't automatically grab the 0w30 the first time around...

You know what, you are EXACTLY right.

That is what I use.

I respect your thought process, 0w30 is the superior oil for all year round.

You know what, you are EXACTLY right.

That is what I use.

I respect your thought process, 0w30 is the superior oil for all year round.Would that depend on location though? I can't imagine needing a 0W30 oil down here in Texas!

That's the point though... whether in Texas or Michigan, by looking at the chart, the 0W-30 offers better protection on a cold start than the 5w-30 and higher multi-grades. And at 100C/212F, it looks to me like it offers almost identical characteristics as all of the other 30-wieght multigrades. So if it protects and flows the same at operating temperature, but offers better protection at startup, and performs at least as well as all the others in every other category, why shouldn't everyone used to 5w30 and 10w30 consider this as a more worthy replacement?

And something interesting on the chart above: Do you notice that the 0w30 rating is lower at freezing temperatures compared to the other 5w30's and 10w30's? (as it should be). BUT, look at temperatures in the overheat range... like 150C... the 0w30 shows a rating of 4.5, compared to 4.3, and 4.2 with the 5w and 10w's... like I said, better protection on a cold start, and better durability under extreme heat... looks like a simple choice to me!

Takes a shit-kickin and keeps on tickin.....

Okay I hate to keep this thread going much longer, but since this post was started, there was an addition to the Mobil1 group that has been gaining some popularity, and that is Mobil1 Extended Performance (15,000 mile). Mobil1 says that the only difference between this and regular Mobil1 synthetic is that the new 15k-mile stuff has 50% more "SuperSyn" in it, although they don't go into too many details on what specifically "SuperSyn" really is (like a polymer, detergent, maple syrup, etc). Also noticed they only offer three multi-grade viscosities for it. Anyone know any other differences or used this stuff against regular Mobil1?

Twas' wondering about the "SuperSyn" mystery funk because they say they only gaurantee it for 15k if you drive like a pansy. On the other hand, if you read their details for regular Mobil1 synthetic they pretty much tell you to beat the life out of it and it'll hold up great, and oh btw you can use it for normal driving too... if 50% SuperSyn is so much better, why act cautious about it compared to what's supposed to be a lesser oil (Mobil1 synthetic original)?

It is basically the same oil with a little more calcium, zinc and other additives.

Nothing hugely different.

Hell, standard Mobil1 can go for 15k highway miles.

Castrol Syntec fans,

Just noticed a new variant of this oil at Auto Zone, a 0W-30 made in Germany to meet German car manufacturers' new standards. It was over $6 a quart but the next time I was in they were blowing it out at $4.97.

Most of my Bimmers are old enough to require 20W-50, but this stuff might be the ticket for my Suburban 383 with a Melling HD oil pump that exceeds 50lb when cold.

Just changed my oil. Last time I changed it, I put Mobil1 synthetic 5W-30 in it, and used a Mobil1 filter too. That was last September, about 8000 miles ago...

Drained it out, and although it was brownish in color and definitely smelled used, it wasn't too dark, and was still thicker than water... it basically looked "well" considering it had 8000 miles of beating on it, including many days below freezing and a few at 0 degrees or worse.

This time, I replaced it with Mobil1 synthetic 5W-30 just the same, but I am using a K&N filter now (Mobil1 and K&N filter are both $11 each here, so I thought I'd give it a try). I guess I'll let you guys know how it holds up to summer abuse after 8000 more miles!

good for you, you took advantage of the oil's life.

good for you, you took advantage of the oil's life.

True, but that's the first time I ever pushed ANY oil that far (more my fault than the oil or the car)... I grew up in the country, listening to Dad as a kid and helping him change oil every < 2000 miles with $1-a-quart 10W-30 Valvoline or Pennzoil (because Arnold Palmer said so he he) and the cheapest Fram filter he could find...

I'm sure I'm not the only guy here that got older, with that similar "mental block" on oil changing. Years ago, our parents thought that 2k and conventional oil was the standard. Synthetics were labeled as "outrageous" or a "gimmick." If I ever would have borrowed my Dad's car years ago, and somehow put 3k+ miles on it without an oil change, he probably would have drove the car off a cliff with me in the trunk lol.

3000 miles on standard oil is now a myth as well.

Regular oil is so refined it can go to 8000 as well with no problems.

3000 miles on standard oil is now a myth as well... Regular oil is so refined it can go to 8000 as well with no problems.

Well, maybe... but you may be hard-pressed to find many people here that would be willing to push conventional oil that far in their cars; especially on a newer engine. I know Mobil1 makes a conventional that claims this, but I personally would have a hard time trusting it... I'd be checking the dipstick every time before my car left the driveway after 3k or 4k miles... which brings us to an updated poll...

Well, maybe... but you may be hard-pressed to find many people here that would be willing to push conventional oil that far in their cars; especially on a newer engine. I know Mobil1 makes a conventional that claims this, but I personally would have a hard time trusting it... I'd be checking the dipstick every time before my car left the driveway after 3k or 4k miles... which brings us to an updated poll...I have pushed my conventional oil to 6000-8000 miles and did the oil analysis afterwards and it still looked good. Once it was Quaker State and the other time was good ol' Pennzoil.

The recommended change interval on my Jeep is 7500 miles with conventional oil. I usually go 4000 miles (Mobil 1), change the filter, top it off and then change the oil and filter at the 8000 mile mark. Because of bad weather and not having any place to dispose of 6 quarts of oil, I have done the filter only change every 4K for 16K miles a couple of times. The oil did not appear or smell any different than an 8K change. Some people only change the filter, top off every 5K or so and do a change at about 20K the whole time they own a vehicle.

FYI, if you are going to be cheap on filters, do not use FRAM. They use a paper element and can degrade and pieces can come out filter and clog oil intake and cause low oil preasure. After i found that out, i switched to AC Delco. No probs.

Well, maybe... but you may be hard-pressed to find many people here that would be willing to push conventional oil that far in their cars; especially on a newer engine. I know Mobil1 makes a conventional that claims this, but I personally would have a hard time trusting it... I'd be checking the dipstick every time before my car left the driveway after 3k or 4k miles... which brings us to an updated poll...

It is all about knowledge.

Peopl without the knowledge and the research will be worried about it seeing they just don't know.

A little research and you will see that it will never harm a tuned up engine that is working properly.

Hell, my friend's Civic states right in the engine compartment that it can go 7000 miles on conventional and that was 14 years ago.

Engines today are even more cleaner and can easily go longer.

FYI, if you are going to be cheap on filters, do not use FRAM. They use a paper element and can degrade and pieces can come out filter and clog oil intake and cause low oil preasure. After i found that out, i switched to AC Delco. No probs.

Good point, Fram are absolute shit.

Engines today are even more cleaner and can easily go longer.

This is very true... between the technology of better engines, better oil, and more accessibility to better filters, there is no reason why oil can't be easily pushed multiple times beyond what our elders remember of their cars and PM's back in the 50's and 60's...

FYI, if you are going to be cheap on filters, do not use FRAM.

I never heard anything good about Fram except from a few ol'-timers... and no offense to them, they just assumed that it was normal for their oil to look like black water after 2500 miles... not realizing that the filter was plugged and baked, and the oil was just roasting everywhere else in their motor. I bought a Fram filter for my F-150 one time... I was spinning it FOREVER trying to get it to go on, when I finally pulled it back down and looked at it closer, and realized that it had NO THREADS in it (wtf, right?). As a matter of fact, I only tried Fram a few times ever, and had similar problems with REALLY dirty-ass oil... I would never use a Fram again unless they offered a filter such as Mobil1, ACDelco, or K&N... which they probably never will. Come to think of it, I'm not impressed with anything that Fram makes at all. Hell, a terrorist could probably be doing a filter change on his car right now, and planning to blow it up in an hour, and even HE probably wouldn't even use a Fram!

I usually use MotorCraft (Ford) filters. I use the one designated for the Ford V8, it is about twice the size of the filter designated for the Mopar 6 and 8 cyl. Sorry off topic, these filters alternatives don't work for the Neon. They apply to the 2.4l , most V6's and V8's.
The Ford filter is made by purolator and features synthetic medium.
I have used the AC/Delco filters before, again I use the one designated for the Ford V8. There are a couple of different filters you can use as an alternative to the one designated for Mopar use. If you don't have enough room to use the Ford V8 filter, you can try the Ford V6 filter which is also bigger than the Mopar one. Don't try to substitute a filter designated for GM use, the GM filters don't contain an anti-drainback valve.

i know the mobil 1 filter lasts almost 10,000 miles but how long does the K and N last? it doesn't say on the box for it.

Not that long.

The K&N is a good filter, but it is overpriced.

Wix or NapaGold would be just as good at 1/2 to 1/3 the price.

I use Pennzoil in my Neon and change it every 2500-3000 miles. My engine has ran great on it.

I use Pennzoil in my Neon and change it every 2500-3000 miles. My engine has ran great on it.

Well changed regularly and driven well, a motor should last pretty long on Pennzoil. As for me, I drive like a bat out of hell half the time, :iceslolan so I need all the extra help I can get (of course, not saying that you don't drive like that either).

Today you can go much more than 3000miles on conventioanl.

Everyone is brainwashed with the old 60s and lube shops telling them how to change it.

In Europe they go to 15,000miles on one oil change. Only North America has the 3000mile bullshit. Check out your owner's manual, it will say the same thing I am saying.

TBN is the Total Base Number and is the amount of anti-wear additive added to the oil. The higher the number, the longer it can go before it drops to 1 which is when you change the oil.


How to know the TBN number of the oils in my engine ?

Kimi

How to know the TBN number of the oils in my engine ?
KimiSome oil companies put it on the bottle, although it's more prominent in deisel engine oils. The only way to check what's currently in your car, would be to send it to a lab, like mine :grinyes: , that can analyze it.

Some oil companies put it on the bottle, although it's more prominent in deisel engine oils. The only way to check what's currently in your car, would be to send it to a lab, like mine :grinyes: , that can analyze it.

but how to know the current TBN status if the oils are still in my engine ? it's less likely to send the used oils to lab each time when I want to know the current TBN after miles of usage.

but how to know the current TBN status if the oils are still in my engine ? it's less likely to send the used oils to lab each time when I want to know the current TBN after miles of usage.It has to be measured...so how else would you do it? It has to be titrated. If you don't want to send it to a lab buy one of these...
http://www.kittiwake.com/Default.aspx/ProductSection/75/ProductSubSection/86/ProductSubSubSection/181/Product/414

but how to know the current TBN status if the oils are still in my engine ? it's less likely to send the used oils to lab each time when I want to know the current TBN after miles of usage.


You can take a sample with a sample extractor out the oil dipstick tube.

For info about TBNs and other esoteric oil topics, visit bobistheoilguy.com!

Blazer LT,

I ran my '90 Suburban 90 days or 4500 miles on conventional oil. With Syntec I'm going more like 7000 miles.

My '04 BMW dashboard computer asks for an oil change at about 15,000-mile intervals, but this is synthetic oil ONLY! I think you'd be asking for trouble stretching conventional oil this long.

'Course if you trade every couple of years or only want to get to the end of the warranty, the car would probably make it in the SHORT run!

Blazer LT,

I ran my '90 Suburban 90 days or 4500 miles on conventional oil. With Syntec I'm going more like 7000 miles.

My '04 BMW dashboard computer asks for an oil change at about 15,000-mile intervals, but this is synthetic oil ONLY! I think you'd be asking for trouble stretching conventional oil this long.

'Course if you trade every couple of years or only want to get to the end of the warranty, the car would probably make it in the SHORT run!

Blazer LT,

I ran my '90 Suburban 90 days or 4500 miles on conventional oil. With Syntec I'm going more like 7000 miles.

My '04 BMW dashboard computer asks for an oil change at about 15,000-mile intervals, but this is synthetic oil ONLY! I think you'd be asking for trouble stretching conventional oil this long.

'Course if you trade every couple of years or only want to get to the end of the warranty, the car would probably make it in the SHORT run!

If you are going to run Syntec, run the 0w30 that is made in germany, it is the only TRUE synthetic. Check the back of the bottle and look for "Made in Germany".

The rest of the grades are Group 3 conventional which is hydrocracked.

The only true synthetics are the 0w30 syntec I said above and the following:

Redline
Mobil 1
Amsoil
Pennzoil Platinum

The rest are NOT real synthetics yet they will charge you like they are.

The rest are NOT real synthetics yet they will charge you like they are.Although legally they can call themselves "true" synthetics, they aren't!

which grade of oils to choose if my engine is with 140000 kms of usage ? Here in Taiwan, they recommend to use thicker oil such as 5w50 to protect engine.

5w40 will be completely sufficient.

Although legally they can call themselves "true" synthetics, they aren't!

Lots of them call themselve "FULL" synthetic although they are just altered conventional oils.

Here we go again with the "100% true synthetic" vs. "hydrocracked part-synthetic" debate.

This is like the "natural" vs. "synthetic" vitamin argument. For decades I have run comparison tests with real athletes. Conclusion: the human body can't tell the difference.

I have purchased the German Syntec for $1.50 per quart more than the USA Syntec. In real world use, I have noted no difference. The range of weights and easier availability have pushed me toward the USA product.

BMW specifies USA Syntec for American market passenger car and SUV use. Their PTG racers use USA Syntec. I don't know about the Formula 1 team, but if the German product offered useful advantages, BMW would certainly use it in their biggest market in the world.

Here we go again with the "100% true synthetic" vs. "hydrocracked part-synthetic" debate.Biggest difference is Viscosity Index. True synthetics, which are Group IV oils, are required to have a VI of >120, while Group III oils, hydrocracked oils, are <120. So a 100% synthetic oil's viscosity will hold up against conditions better than a "fake" synthetic.

If you think true PAO synthetic is the same as hydrocracked conventional, you are wrong.

The PAO bas fluid is so much better than the grp 3 crap that they pawn off as synthetic to the unknowning consumer.

Also, german castrol is a synthetic ester base.

I did not mean to suggest that Group 3 and Group 4 oils are identical in composition or characteristics. Either one is "too good" for the average motorist to reap the value of their benefits.

My fleet of BMW cars and Chevy trucks get an average of 250,000 miles useful engine life without internal engine work. Using USA Syntec (Group 3) this is extended to 500,000 miles. Assuming I could get German Syntec in the correct viscosities, how much more might I expect?

I keep my vehicles a long time. The average motorist does not come close to the years and miles I put on my fleet.

I was driving one of my Chevy Suburbans on business in Las Vegas a couple of years ago. The temperature was 106 degrees. My a/c compressor froze and threw the serpentine belt. Having a couple of important meetings to make over the next couple of hours, I drove slowly with the temp gauge pegged for a few miles, taking care of the afternoon's business before summoning a flatbed at MY convenience to service the a/c. Without any engine work, this vehicle covered another two years and 60,000 miles of service.

Based on experiences like this, I'd say Group 3 Syntec is more than good enough for any non-racing application.

This thread is not about you, it is about the consumers getting ripped off and paying premium synthetic prices for a fake synthetic.

It is only labelled a synthetic because of a wording loophole, other than that it is just a premium normal motor oil.

Besides Castrol Syntec, what other major retail brands are "fake" synthetic?

I know GM recommends Mobil 1 for Corvettes. Which car manufacturers do not list Group 3 oils as recommended?

Are there any manufacturer Service Bulletins warning against use of Group 3 synthetics?

I doubt it, since all the Group 3 and Group 4 oils probably meet the same SAE "S_" classification minimum spec.

Besides Castrol Syntec, what other major retail brands are "fake" synthetic?

I know GM recommends Mobil 1 for Corvettes. Which car manufacturers do not list Group 3 oils as recommended?

Are there any manufacturer Service Bulletins warning against use of Group 3 synthetics?

I doubt it, since all the Group 3 and Group 4 oils probably meet the same SAE "S_" classification minimum spec.

Better to show you real TRUE synthetics than type out all the other fake ones:

True Synthetics are:

Redline
Schaeffer
Pennzoil Platinum
Castrol Syntec 0w30 (The one made in Germany ONLY)
Exxon XD3 0w30 Synthetic (Esso in Canada) <---This is the one I use.
Mobil1
Amsoil

All the rest are just highly purified hydrocracked conventional oil and do not have the higher quality PAO basestock as used with most of these. The syntec one above is synthetic ester based as I think is the Pennzoil Platinum.

Pay the premium price for the real deal, not a rip-off purified conventional oil.

http://www.1st-in-synthetics.com/newsletter_1000.htm

Most of the fake synthetics today used to be true synthetics until a court ruling. Then Castrol saw that it could still call its product synthetic while saving money and using only a Group 3 inferior basestock.

Consumer reports rated all top brand oils and Penzoil and Castrol outperformed all others.They put the oil into a machine and beat the living crap out of the oil.These two faired really well.

Consumer reports rated all top brand oils and Penzoil and Castrol outperformed all others.They put the oil into a machine and beat the living crap out of the oil.These two faired really well.

Link?

Link?Yes please!

I personally use mobil synthetic. Our climate in Winnipeg varies from six months of plus 30 cesius, to about 4 months of minus 40. You still must change it per owners manual in extreme conditions. I notice the difference more in the fridgid season for my vehicles turn over like it were summer. Just got rid of my old and sweet 1990 Dodge Caravan 3.3, showing it's age but still running at 450,000 klms.
I have always used a Fram, but recently bought a Fram synthetic one for $14.oo Canadian. Do't know how much better it is?
Just a Dad, Wayne
Must say I would not advise a synthetic on a new vehikle until the engine is broken in." Wait one full oil Change", or at least a few thousand miles with the factory installed oil.
Still miss. my Caravan, but sold it for three hundre bucks for it had many good parts.

Must say I would nnot advise a synthetic on a new vehikle until the engine is broken in.Even Mobil 1 suggests that! Royal Purple however says you can use their own right away, which I do not agree with at all.

When getting a new vehicle, drop the oil after 500 miles, then after 100miles and switch right to synthetic.

It will be broken in and you won't be subjecting your engine to wear from the casting sand and wearing metals.

^^^Might wanna say 500 miles of "easy" driving.

Nope, actually, if you want to get to the best way to break in any engine, you take it right off the dealer floor and do three full throttle accelerations from 20 up to 80-90mph.

Then take it home and drop the oil immediately. This seats the rings properly.

Nope, actually, if you want to get to the best way to break in any engine, you take it right off the dealer floor and do three full throttle accelerations from 20 up to 80-90mph.

Then take it home and drop the oil immediately. This seats the rings properly.I have never heard of that, nor would I recommend it to anyone. Where did this theory arrive from?

Just because you haven't heard about it it doesn't mean it is wrong.

It is often used to break in racing and high preformance engines.

Many of my friends have used it and swear by how quickly it seats the rings and thus allows a better break in.

Here is a low down on it:

http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm

Just because you haven't heard about it it doesn't mean it is wrong.Agreed on that part.

It is often used to break in racing and high preformance engines.LOL...the neon is nowhere near a racing or high performance engine. I'm not saying thats what you are calling it, but this thread is in the neon forum :wink:

Interesting break in method. The WOT is the method that I use on my new cars. WOT but not redline RPMs (difficult to do with an automatic). Then I usually change the oil and filter at 500 miles. Then go 2500 more. Then change to Mobil 1 and the largest filter that will fit on the engine.
The Mopar filters are small, there are several Ford filters that are compatible but larger (more filter capacity). I usually use the one designated for the Ford V8 (fl1 in some brands). My Rampage 2.2 calls for a really small oil filter because that is the only one that fits all the models (including the ones with A/C). Since I don't have A/C the full size Ford V8 filter fits just fine.

Agreed on that part.

LOL...the neon is nowhere near a racing or high performance engine. I'm not saying thats what you are calling it, but this thread is in the neon forum :wink:


Good lord......

It can be used on all 4 stroke engines.

Don't put down what you are too chicken to try.

Doesn't mean it is a bad method. It is how most racing engines are broken in and is the best way to break in a conventional engine as well.

Did I see right, full throttle on a new engine ???????????
I would hope all would reconsider that post real good before trying such a stunt, vary your speeds. I'ts not being chicken, but foolish to pull such a stunt. First of all even racing engines are started first for quite some time to se what may have gone wrong when assembled. "Never mind the Television shows". Also most all Dealers would know quite quickly by the in board computor if you are blasting the hell out of your powertrain when it explodes. Even new vehicles can have a problem from the factory, so follow the break in procedure.
Not much has change since the 70's. Cripes, perhaps I am to old to here this kind of junk.

Just a Dad Wayne

Oh give me a break.

All you are preaching is ignorance.

Now go and do your 3000mile oil change and call it a day.

Okay, ask das, and evryone else, although, I really think your a wanna be.
I mean it in all respect the best I could keep after your email, but it's your call. I have made many mistakes over 24
years and passed them on. Sorry if I offended you, but so many young people view this sight.
No bad feeling, just a Dad with many years of screw ups.
Wayne

Yes, any many old people preach advice from the 60s like it applies in todays engines.

Just because you are old doesn't mean you are knowledgeable. And just because someone is younger than you doesn't mean they are idiots.

Age doesn't equal intelligence you before you question me, do some research.

There are many professionals that use this technique because it works.

okay blazer, that's it. Grow up, people need the best possible advice. Age was never my excuse for my reply, it's called past mistakes.
Don't email me again unless you respect my opinion as I do yours.
Wayne

Keep an open mind and don't slap down a different opinion just because it doesn't agree with yours.

"OH MY GOD, HE IS USING A DIFFERENT METHOD THAN MY DADDY TAUGHT ME...HE MUST BE WRONG........."

People say the same fear mongering crap with the 3000 mile oil change which is PROVEN TO BE completely false.

And I am not emailing you so stop think I am. Every post on this forum sends out an email saying someone replied to a thread that you are participating in.

Thanks, for we all learnt a lesson.
Wayne

I question the technique because it is new and the link that BlazerLT offered talked more about "bike" racing engines. It did say you can do it on new cars, but I didn't see any testimony or results on a stock engine broke in this way as oppposed to a stock engine broke in the traditional way. I'd like to see those comparions before jumping on ship.

To me, it's kind of like the "turbonator" or "electric supercharger" they have there testimonies and bs dyno charts, but they are still crap!

I question the technique because it is new and the link that BlazerLT offered talked more about "bike" racing engines. It did say you can do it on new cars, but I didn't see any testimony or results on a stock engine broke in this way as oppposed to a stock engine broke in the traditional way. I'd like to see those comparions before jumping on ship.

To me, it's kind of like the "turbonator" or "electric supercharger" they have there testimonies and bs dyno charts, but they are still crap!

How do you think they break in some engines in at the factory? Sit them on the engine dyno and lightly drive them for 3000miles? Every Ferrari, Lamborghini, BMW M3, High end Mercedes engines are broken in at the factory EXACTLY the same way. No easy break in, they flog them for a short period of time, check the compression increase and call it a day.

It is not for bike engines, this method has been used for years and with ZERO failures. Bike engines work exactly the same way as any other 4 stroke engine does.

They are actually worked harder than car engines so if they don't fail, neither would ours....EVER.

Comparing this method to the turbonator and electric supercharger is an amazingly ignorant, opinionated, and factless thing to say.

They are a scam trying to sell you a product.

Anyone trying to sell you a product here???....Nope

How do you think they break in some engines in at the factory? Sit them on the engine dyno and lightly drive them for 3000miles? Every Ferrari, Lamborghini, BMW M3, High end Mercedes engines are broken in at the factory EXACTLY the same way. No easy break in, they flog them for a short period of time, check the compression increase and call it a day.And the neon engine fits in this class???? Now thats ignorance of I ever saw it.

It is not for bike engines
Copied and pasted from the link your provided..."Street or Race Motorcycles" and "These same break in techniques apply to both steel cylinders and Nikasil, as well as the ceramic composite cylinders that Yamaha uses in it's motorcycles and snowmobiles."

And again where is the comparison between the same stock engine broke in this way versus the conventional (old) way????

And the neon engine fits in this class???? Now thats ignorance of I ever saw it.

You said it was only meant for bikes and that is incorrect. And from what I remember, we drive 4 stroke engines right?

So yes they are the same class.


Copied and pasted from the link your provided..."Street or Race Motorcycles" and "These same break in techniques apply to both steel cylinders and Nikasil, as well as the ceramic composite cylinders that Yamaha uses in it's motorcycles and snowmobiles."

Also from the link I posted

"Although the examples shown here are motorcycle engines,
these principles apply to all 4 stroke engines:

Street or Race Motorcycles, Cars, Snowmobiles, Airplanes & yes ...
even Lawn Mowers !!
( regardless of brand, cooling type, or number of cylinders. )"

And again where is the comparison between the same stock engine broke in this way versus the conventional (old) way????

And where is your proof that it is a scam?

You said it was only meant for bikes and that is incorrect. I said it talked about motorcycle engines MORE, not only!!!

And from what I remember, we drive 4 stroke engines right?
So yes they are the same class.WOW, so a Yugo engine is right up there with a Ferrari engine!!! Damn people buying Ferrari's, BMW's, Mercedes' are just plain dumb then!!! They shouldn't pay the extra money for a highly designed and enginneered engine when they can get a cheap one from Yugo or a Daewoo one. huh? Since they are all 4 stroke, they MUST all work and be the same!!!

And where is your proof that it is a scam?I just want proof that its better, not someone's "WORD" that it is!

Why don't you simmer downa bit here.

You are a moderator and should act accordingly and not pulling this childish mocking attitude.

I guess you have a difference of opinion with me and that is fine, but don't tell me that what I put across as a method to be a SCAM. That is insulting. With over 12,000 posts here I dont' peddle scams, I try to show people a different way to do things and do my research.

And for cripes sake, I never said that a ferrari engine was the same as a Yugo, I said THEY ARE BOTH FOUR STROKE ENGINES. But for some reason you infer that I am comparing a hatchback engine to a super car which is flat out moronic.

Regardless, this is off topic, I am not going to go off topic from this thread anymore seeing it is not fair to everyone else, it is about oil and filters, not engine break in.

I guess you have a difference of opinion with me and that is fine, but don't tell me that what I put across as a method to be a SCAM. That is insulting. With over 12,000 posts here I dont' peddle scams, I try to show people a different way to do things and do my research.Post count is irrelevant to me...you "could" be a postwhore for all I know, so that doesn't mean much.

I didn't say it was a scam, just that it reminded me of the other things I mentioned. I WANT PROOF of there findings, thats all. Give me specs on the same brand new engine broke in both ways and show how one is superior to the other, thats all. Until then I will continued to break in my cars, just as I have my neon with currently over 288,000 miles on the clock and still going strong!

Ok!

Now back to the topic at hand which is oil and filters!

LT Blazer,

I've been away for awhile. Boy, what a hornet's nest you stirred up!

But I'm with you on break-in procedures. For decades now, factory people have told me the brand new cars loaned out for journalist road tests (which are flogged mercilessly on drag strips and high speed runs) come back running freer and better than those broken in more "normally". And they have virtually identical life expectancies.

I guess the happy medium is don't abuse them, but DRIVE 'em!

Like I said , drive the hell out of it and when it breaks down, explain to that little on board computor and the dealer that will show it all that you just blew up your powertrain, because I was a jerk.
Good luck, and I hope your rich.

Like I said , drive the hell out of it and when it breaks down, explain to that little on board computor and the dealer that will show it all that you just blew up your powertrain, because I was a jerk.
Good luck, and I hope your rich.

1.) Who said we were going to drive the hell out of it? I know I didn't. 5-10 full throttle runs from 20-80mph to seat the rings is not thrashing it. Not like we are taking it to the raceway to race a circuit.

And what is going to break down? That's right....nothing.

2.) And what onboard computer, there is no such computer that keeps a record of your driving habits. There is no such thing. Trying to scare people with bullshit are you? Yip.......

3.) Calling people jerks because they practise this method doesn't make them jerks. We aren't a bunch of boy racer ricers that will be doing this between stop lights for cripes sakes so get over it.

Good luck, and I hope your rich.

It is you're, not your.

But overall, it is your choice, I guess I will be a jerk and have my engine broke in the way I like it.

Your right, you will "broke it in", for sure. As far as your on board computor goes, test it out?
As far as trying to scare people, not me. Just remember the EDR put in most cars for many years. There are many court cases involving them in Canada. What I was trying to say was treat your auto with respect to the type of car, etc. All I know is I ramed my neon in reverse in a snow storm and buggered the the tranny. They knew, I Knew. Forgive my spelling for some people have a problem not due to ignorance. Anyway, wit all respect,
it is a EDR or Black Box. I'm just not to sure nor trust that they have more control over our driving habit's.
And just so you know, at 54, I love to put my car to to it's limit.
Sorry if I offended you, but again I feel we should follow the break in manual as per driving habits.
Also, if I may say, there are so many other powertrain parts that need the same break in periond.
I am talking to the middle class people. Warrenty is what it states.
Just a Dad, always trying to learn, and respect others, for that is how we learn.
Good luck, Wayne
Lets talk about oil, Pleeeeease. Just change your oil and filter as often as possible if you like to give it all.Take the climate, dust, heat all into consideration

Your right, you will "broke it in", for sure. As far as your on board computor goes, test it out?
As far as trying to scare people, not me. Just remember the EDR put in most cars for many years. There are many court cases involving them in Canada. What I was trying to say was treat your auto with respect to the type of car, etc. All I know is I ramed my neon in reverse in a snow storm and buggered the the tranny. They knew, I Knew. Forgive my spelling for some people have a problem not due to ignorance. Anyway, wit all respect,
it is a EDR or Black Box. I'm just not to sure nor trust that they have more control over our driving habit's.
And just so you know, at 54, I love to put my car to to it's limit.
Sorry if I offended you, but again I feel we should follow the break in manual as per driving habits.
Also, if I may say, there are so many other powertrain parts that need the same break in periond.
I am talking to the middle class people. Warrenty is what it states.
Just a Dad, always trying to learn, and respect others, for that is how we learn.
Good luck, Wayne
Lets talk about oil, Pleeeeease. Just change your oil and filter as often as possible if you like to give it all.Take the climate, dust, heat all into consideration

Keep an open mind, you will find out that a lot of things you thought were true are not.

Like the 3000mile oil change which is a scam. People fight so hard to say that 3000mile oil changes are the right way to go when oil today will go 5000miles minimum before it even STARTS to weaken.

I agree, but you do not. so with all respect, we should drop it and move on to more basic problems.
Wayne

I have a completely open mind, hence why I always listen to people and do research before I sprout bullshit like onboard computers that supervise our driving skills and such like you did. You know that is complete bullshit yet you claimed it to be some proven fact to support your claim which in turn is a complete lie.

If you don't know for sure, don't reply.

The onboard computer post shows just how ignorant you are when it comes to automotive technology. Anyone thinking that a computer can see when you put your car in reverse and damaged it needs to get a serious grip on reality and facts.

Did I say, look at you??, Don't think so. Did I say watch you, I think not. Anyway, I have said what is true, and have read lots of your posts. Give it a rest, for your stars just may mean Zip to some.
So give it a break, but I'm sure anyone who does not agree with you will not have the pleasure. Going out to enjoy my week end. Sorry, you have no one to talk to but your own ego.
All respect to people with a open mind.
Advice, don't play with your mouse 24/7 or you might go blind.

OK...this has gone off-topic enough. If you two wanna keep going at each other, please do it thru PM's.

Umm...I believe you took part in this arguement about break in techniques so dont' be a hypocrit and talking about it going off topic when you were essentially part of the problem that took it there.

Also, I called yale329's bullshit about there being computers that monitor our driving habits. I would like to see his proof for this crap.

He just sounds like some ramblin old fart with little knowedge spouting lies and thinking that because is over 50 that would should take it as the truth.

What a joke.

I know but name calling wasn't a part of either of our conversations, so lets get this back on topic like you said..
Ok!
Now back to the topic at hand which is oil and filters!

There was no name calling here.

But anyhoo, on to the topic at hand.

BTW, 3000mile oil changes are ridiculous.

Time to whip up this forum. Come on Blazer, Prove it. I know you think I'm okay??
just adad Wayne

Time to whip up this forum. Come on Blazer, Prove it. I know you think I'm okay??
just adad Wayne

I'm not biting seeing you are just trying to be a troll and start conflisct.

You aren't talking about oil...then shut it.

Yes, just abit, I admit. But on a recent post I was hearing of piston slap, which some think is normal, even for a 2000 neon. I had 60,000 klms on mine when I traded it in, just before the warrenty ran out. Old or not, why should these new cars have this problem. Mine did at about 20, 000 klms, and I used mobil 1 5W30 always, changed about every 7,000 klms.
I am willing to learn and listen so be polite. Any piston slap or noise, going back one hundred years of course, "and That's a Joke", was not normal,
So I'm asking again, truthfully, am I using the best considering + 40, - 45 celcius. I have a new one now and most certainly I want to know.
This has everything to do with oil, but data will not help
Just a Dad Wayne
proof please, sorry.

I have piston slap on my 1998. It is only when it is cold, once it is warmed up you cannot hear it. It is normal and I have even heard a 2004 start up and have it as well. It is a common trait with the 2.0L but doesn't mean it is a bad engine or that anything is going wrong.

Mine has 120,000miles, has piston slap, gets 38MPG on the highway and it is an AUTO. I couldn't believe it. I heard the 5 speed will get good economy but this auto isn't supposed to be so good, but it is.

So back on topic, no, it is not the oil, and the 7000kms was sure as heck not even coming to touching the life of that oil so don't ever think it was ever worn out.

Too bad you sold it really, it probably would have gone over 200,000miles without a hitch if you kept it tuned up and the tranny fluid changed.

Did That, did it all, but to me being older, now on the subject at hand, What is 0w30 and would you recommend it in our climate.
Thanks Blazer. Again though, my old 1990 caravan 3.3 litre that was a great engine, never had that in the coldest weather and had much, much more than 200, 000. klms and still running.
Dad Wayne
Have to edit for I just recieved a few emails from people working in a auto plant.
I do wonder, if they just put one part in a vehicle every day, does that help me in any way.
Wayne

The only 0w30's I would use is the Mobil1 and the Esso XD3 Synthetic 0w30 at the Esso distributors.

Don't use any others.

Mind you, the Mobil1 5w30 has an amazingly low pour point of around -54c or something so I think that is the best bet.

Thanks my friend, I think I will stick with it.
Wayne

Thanks my friend, I think I will stick with it.
WayneTo Blazer, 3 M vacume filter. Come on, get this forum moving. To you to das, I want some info on blue, or yelloe fog lamps.
Just a crazy old bugger, all let Blazer finish the rest. Wayne

To Blazer, 3 M vacume filter. Come on, get this forum moving. To you to das, I want some info on blue, or yelloe fog lamps.
Just a crazy old bugger, all let Blazer finish the rest. Wayne

Put the crack pipe down! :D

What crack ppp-pipe sonny

What crack ppp-pipe sonny
I asked a simple question, but now I want to know how another post got posted without my knowing, with my emai?? And I don't smoke crack although I'm still old enogh to be foolish, and the post was not even funny, but out right unreadable.
Wayne

Well to get back on-topic, I created this post a year ago, and to my amazement it's still getting attention... but I guess we have our answer on the oil - obviously most people prefer the Mobil1 sythetic; since I created this post I've been using the 0w30 with good luck.

And as for the previous quotes on the guy with the '98 who has piston slap when it's cold but still gets 38 mpg with the ATX... Hell mine's an '04, and I get piston slap pretty regularly on a cold start, but it's an MTX and I squeeze 44 mpg out of it, so I understand where he's coming from. Definitely lucky, but a few minor upgrades and basic routine PM's go a long way for any vehicle.

Yea, I keep it tip top. Mileage is getting even better now that I bypassed the AC as well. The AC was shot and wasn't working so I didn't need it.

Car picked up some pep too.

Just out of curiousity, has anyone ran 5W-20 in their 2.0L and if so, what kind of results did you have?

Hey Bud, I'm back and a new grampa to, So anyway I haven't written to hound you. Ihave been using mobile 5w30 synthetic. It's been a truthful -48 out here and I noticed that even that caused a hard start the other day on my PT. Must tell you I did not plug in. Since plugging in is not always a option, any suggestions besides frquent oil changes and a trickle charge.
Wayne

Well one thing I could suggest would be to run 0w-30, which I have been doing this winter because it has been between 0 and -18 degrees here every night. Other than that and keeping your car as warm as possible, not much else off the top of my head!

Oil filters for cars and trucks have around a 10 micron to 40 micron "nominal" rating at best. The only way to find out the beta rating for each filter is to call the company. They are usually willing to provide that information to you. The best rating I have gotten for a filter so far is for the Fram Triple Guard. Your best bet is to install an aftermarket offline filter on your car. These are readily available for a price ranging from $100 up to $500. Believe me, it is worth the investment. By the way can you help find my friend a GM parts with great quality..

I use only Mobil 1 in my car. Runs well for the most part, just has some lifter tick on cold starts.

Mobil 1 has dropped their basestocks from PAO to Group 3 for their 5w30 and up grades.

Only the 0w20 and the 0w30, 0w40 are PAO based and completely synthetic.

Such a shame.

Oh well. At least their filters are good right? :lol2:

My situation(Severe driving conditions to say the least):Rural Mailcarrier-Route 100 miles in length-400 stops-90% gravel(VERY dusty)roads-Vehicles driven-Dodge Spirits-2.5L and 3.0L engines. Started using the Spirits and engines had less than 15,000 miles on them. All had the 3-speed auto trans-BEST ever made!!
Drove them until they had 175,000 miles on them. I changed the oil every 3,000 miles. I did not use synthetic but I used Castrol,Valvoline,Trop Artic or Walmart oil(Yes Walmart oil!). Oil filters that I used was AC Delco,Fram,STP and yes the Walmart oil filter. All engines went at least 160,000 miles before they started using some oil.
The 3.0L held up the best.The 2.5L was the worst and starting it up in the morning it would belch out a "huge" cloud of blue smoke. Tried STP but that was no help. Mechanic told me to try Lucas oil additive and it stopped the blue smoke and slowed down the oil burning. I'm just wondering that if you change your oil&filter every 5,000 miles and use nothing better than a Walmart oil&filter or O'Reilly's oil&filter(Who really makes there oil and filters?) that might be all you need.
Are there product's that much worse than the rest? I really don't know. As far as my "regular" vehicle (02 GMC Envoy)I change my own oil and I use Mobil 1 oil & filter in that engine. Don't drive it that much so I thought I could benefit from synthetic oil.

BlazerLT: you still around? I came across this, which is now an old thread, but have questions about synthetic oil, and zinc reduction (thanks again, EPA), and an oil pre-pressurizer. if you're still around...

Wix makes Carquest's and Napa's oil filters.