Hard start '92 v6 3.1L

Hey All:

I wonder if someone could Help me with some suggestions here.

After replacing cap, rotor and cables last year, I'm having an issue with Hard starting.

Let say the Rodeo is driving for 10 - 20 minutes. I shut it off to fill the tank or its just off for 5 minutes (both conditions, this has occured), The engine has a hard time starting.

The only way I can get it to start is, to time the key with the gas pedal. What I mean is that I crank the engine, until it starts cranking twice as fast as normal, (a few seconds more than normal), Then release the key and push the gas petal to the floor. What happens is that the engine will be rough at 0 -500 RPMs for about a second. Then it will either die, or the RPMS will increase.

If I do not use the gas petal, it takes longer to start.

Its interminent, but mostly reproducable if the conditions above are met.

I dont even know where to start, I replaced the parts because of white spots on the cables. Someone told me those were caused by arcing.


The issue misterously went away in summer and fall, but seems to be back.


Any ideas would be great!

-paul

Hey All:

I wonder if someone could Help me with some suggestions here.

After replacing cap, rotor and cables last year, I'm having an issue with Hard starting.

Let say the Rodeo is driving for 10 - 20 minutes. I shut it off to fill the tank or its just off for 5 minutes (both conditions, this has occured), The engine has a hard time starting.

The only way I can get it to start is, to time the key with the gas pedal. What I mean is that I crank the engine, until it starts cranking twice as fast as normal, (a few seconds more than normal), Then release the key and push the gas petal to the floor. What happens is that the engine will be rough at 0 -500 RPMs for about a second. Then it will either die, or the RPMS will increase.

If I do not use the gas petal, it takes longer to start.

Its interminent, but mostly reproducable if the conditions above are met.

I dont even know where to start, I replaced the parts because of white spots on the cables. Someone told me those were caused by arcing.


The issue misterously went away in summer and fall, but seems to be back.


Any ideas would be great!

-paul
perhaps your timing maybe off, i know very little about cars but my tensioner was going bad on my rodeo and it caused my belt to loosen...and then the belt slipped and then the timing went off. when i tried to start it...the situation is similar to yours.

bengalsfan

Well thanks for that, but I have a timing chain, not a belt, but you do bring up something and thats when I got a new timing chain, they set the timing at 0 degrees, The spec was 10 so, my brother and I changed it to 10, maybe we missed!

Its an easy check.

Sounds like ignition timing.

I was having the same problems with my 92 rodeo, try the fuel filter. Seriously mine was running real bad too, and I changed the fuel filter and it is all better now. Its like 20F outside right now and when I went out to start it and let it warm up it starts right up, no pushing the gas or anything. Its worth a shot anyways,cant hurt right?

Did you have any problems starting when cold or when warm? I only have trouble when warm. When replacing the filter, did you run into any problems, like gas spilling everywhere?

-thanks
paul

all of the time, with the fuel filter you are going to get some gas coming out of the lines, you cant really help that because I dont believe there is a way to relieve the fuel pressure on the 3.1 since it is throttle body injected, so expect a little leakage.

I got my hands on a timing light, out it into bypass mode, but did not plug the EGR or purge vacuum lines, I didn't have plugs. My brother told me afterwards I can use electrical tape. Anyway I got 8 degrees instead on 10.

My question is how many degrees is changed when plugging those vacuum lines?

-thanks!

Ok, I plugged the vacuum lines, It made no difference, I tell you, those haynes books suck!

Not only do they give contradicting information (in the same chapter) but they got you doing things that are needless.

So, My brother and I changed the timing from 8 to 10 degrees, What a difference two degrees makes, wow. The rough idling went away and when I climb hills the pinging sound isnt as loud.

He even went to 12 degress which the car just purred, it was amazing, we left it at 10 because of factory.

I tried to reproduce the issue, Running the engine for a while and then shutting down for a few minutes. Twice I could not reproduce the issue, but there is something interestingly different and I'm not saying that this is solved, but the time to get the car started is different. Like .25 sec longer from when I turn the key to when I release it. Its quite interesting, I use to pop it and go, now I have to hold the key for a little longer, dont know if that means anything or not!

-paul

Ok, I plugged the vacuum lines, It made no difference, I tell you, those haynes books suck!

Not only do they give contradicting information (in the same chapter) but they got you doing things that are needless.

So, My brother and I changed the timing from 8 to 10 degrees, What a difference two degrees makes, wow. The rough idling went away and when I climb hills the pinging sound isnt as loud.

He even went to 12 degress which the car just purred, it was amazing, we left it at 10 because of factory.

I tried to reproduce the issue, Running the engine for a while and then shutting down for a few minutes. Twice I could not reproduce the issue, but there is something interestingly different and I'm not saying that this is solved, but the time to get the car started is different. Like .25 sec longer from when I turn the key to when I release it. Its quite interesting, I use to pop it and go, now I have to hold the key for a little longer, dont know if that means anything or not!

-paul


Paul,

I'm having the same problem with my Rodeo. I read a post that if you turn the key on and off 8-10 times and wait 3 seconds between each turn it will start right up. It's been working for me right now (until I take the truck to the shop on Saturday) but it's annoying to have to start my truck that way.
It's been a few days since your last post. Did changing to timing to 10 degrees solve your problem?

Thanks.

Hi there:

I haven't had a problem yet, but I go to get gas tomorrow, wednesday its .5 Cents cheaper, so thats why I'm waiting.

Interesting workaround you found, If you do the math 8-10 * 3 = 24 to 30 seconds not including the length of time is was off nor the time to turn the key, 1 second or 2.

When you say turn on and off, does that include cranking? Because I can tell you that I had to pop start her a couple of times, so I was out there for a while.

I'll be glad to post results tomorrow, but I wont consider this fixed for at least a month of trying to replicate it.

Did you have any work done on your engine, before this started happening? What engine do you have?

One other note, I didn't arbertraily pick 10 degrees, under the hood it the factory spec which reads that it should be set to 10 degrees, if you have the 3.1L GM V6 thats were you should be or higher, but not much higher, we had it at 12 and I'm almost willing to reset it at 12. But I need to be sure that the problem is fixed, first. The fact the it takes a little longer to start makes sense to me as to why sometimes she would not start, just hope I'm right!

Hi there:

I haven't had a problem yet, but I go to get gas tomorrow, wednesday its .5 Cents cheaper, so thats why I'm waiting.

Interesting workaround you found, If you do the math 8-10 * 3 = 24 to 30 seconds not including the length of time is was off nor the time to turn the key, 1 second or 2.

When you say turn on and off, does that include cranking? Because I can tell you that I had to pop start her a couple of times, so I was out there for a while.

I'll be glad to post results tomorrow, but I wont consider this fixed for at least a month of trying to replicate it.

Did you have any work done on your engine, before this started happening? What engine do you have?

I'm sorry I ment to say turn the key (only w/ out starting) on and off and wait 3 seconds w/ the key turned in the on position. I'm assuming that this trick is starting the fuel pump to prime the carb. Because I hear the fuel pump click on when I turn the key on. I'm not sure but it works. I have the 3.1 V6 as well. I just bought the truck last weekend so I haven't done any work to it yet and I'm not sure what the previous owner did to it. I going to get it checked out this weekend. Let me know how things go when you fill 'er up! Thanks!

Hi there:

Does the phrase swing and a miss tell you something about my success? I had the hard start again. The good news, it didn't last as long, but I did find out some good things during this episode.

First disconnected the bypass wire behind the kick panel by the driver side left foot (its a white/black wire, to be done with the key off). Tried to start but it did not. That was a good sign because that would have meant that the coil needs replacing.

I then removed the ignition coil wire that goes to the center of the distributor cap. The idea was to see if the coil was charging, it sounds like the strobe in a camera, a high pitched wine should be heard when charged. I didn't but it was very noisy at the gas station, not like my garage, so I had someone else crank the engine and I noticed that the exposed connection point on the coil was arcing. I've never seen that before, because I'm usally in the car cranking away, with of course the wire on the contact. What I can deduce from this, is that either the wire itself is bad or its not a spark problem. I did change the wire back to the original that was on there, its a bit shorter than the new one, I wonder if that might have something to do with it.

I also purchased today, Fram fuel filter. Its interesting to what you said! Prime the pump, I do hear the fuel pump operating when the car does not start, but I just wonder if the self cleaning fuel filter is done. In the 11 years that I had her, I dont believe I've ever changed the fuel filter. Perhaps its just coincidence that it all happen at the same time, well I wont be able to install the fuel filter until this weekend, so I will be testing the old cable in the meantime.

Please let me know what your mechanic finds out!

-Paul

I could not install the fuel filter, so I'm seeking help from my local service guy, I know, wimp, but its cold out there.

I did last week replace the coil wire to the distributer with the original (I saved them when I did the change out) and went to get fuel tonight. The engine did start although it was rough for the first second. I'm not sure what that means but I took a ohm reading off the new wire which came to 4700 Ohms. The original wire which is still on the vehicle, I'm not sure, but I can tell you that the original one is much shorter, than the one that I was having a problem with. This is a Conrad wire. There seems to be black deposits in the plug, not sure what that means either. I will Ohm the original wire out this weekend, I couldnt do it tonight because I had to repair the dishwasher!

-paul

I could not install the fuel filter, so I'm seeking help from my local service guy, I know, wimp, but its cold out there.

I did last week replace the coil wire to the distributer with the original (I saved them when I did the change out) and went to get fuel tonight. The engine did start although it was rough for the first second. I'm not sure what that means but I took a ohm reading off the new wire which came to 4700 Ohms. The original wire which is still on the vehicle, I'm not sure, but I can tell you that the original one is much shorter, than the one that I was having a problem with. This is a Conrad wire. There seems to be black deposits in the plug, not sure what that means either. I will Ohm the original wire out this weekend, I couldnt do it tonight because I had to repair the dishwasher!

-paul

Paul,

my mechanic finished the inspection on my truck. I had to buy a lower ball joint and I told him to check out the starting problem. The guy is pretty busy so hopefully I'll have an answer in a couple of days. I need my truck it's snowing up here! >:o(
I'll keep you posted...

Yes, here in CT also, snowing pretty good 11". YEah! I'm estatic! Thanks for the help, I hope to get my diagonstic reader up and running this weekend so that I can get a few other things figured out when this occurs.

One cause could be the throttle Postion sensor. If the voltage is high when starting, the ecm regards this as a flooded engine. So this is what I'll be concentrating on, assuming I get the interface working.

I was actually able to reproduce the hard start without going to the gas station. I drove it for a while and then shut it down, Stayed with the car for 4.5 mintues and tried to start it up. It would not, I left it for 45 minutes to get food and when I returned, it started but there was an aweful sound from under the hood. SHe did start on the first try. I still haven't figured out what that sound was but I've never heard it before. So, with that, it wasn't the coil wire. I will be doing the fuel filter on monday!

OK, replaced the fuel filter, might know by wednesday whether that was it!

OK, after replacing the Fuel filter, I did have the same hard start issue. OK, so now I'm fed up with this, (god I haven't used that term in a while).

I took off the air cleaner just to make sure that the temperature sensor is still connected to the vacuum line. I found a split in the hose leading up to the temp sensor. This now makes sense. When I put the new cap and rotor on, I took off the air cleaner, and not knowing the temp sensor was attached by a hose, it snagged. Well not knowingly, I tore the hose. I found it days later hissing away, I went out to car quest and got another, they could not match it up completely but gave one that was close. It seemed to work, after forcing it on, in the dark.

Well, guess what, I found that it split, down the long way. I got a new one, with bigger inner diameter. Will have to see if this fixes it.

Just one note of concern, when the problem happen again, I did check the EGR valve, it wasn't sticking but I thought perhaps it did not move as freely as perhaps it should. Anyone know how to remove and EGR valve off the 3.1L engine?

Well I messed with that and reseated a vacuum line attached to the regulator, It started up. It could be coincidance or not? But if it happens again, I will push on the valve again and give it a start.

Hose did not do it, I'm thinking spark plug gap or egr valve, just not sure. I made a scanning tool, I might use it to determine if the TPS or CTS sensors are bad.

I'm out of ideas!

Hose did not do it, I'm thinking spark plug gap or egr valve, just not sure. I made a scanning tool, I might use it to determine if the TPS or CTS sensors are bad.

I'm out of ideas!


When was the last time you checked/changed the fuel pressure regulator? I'm ordering one from St Charles and I think that is the problem with my truck.

Question:

Why do you think its that, have I mentioned this in a previous email? I actually found something last night that pointed to that but I'm kind of reluctant, since this issue occured after I changed the plugs, wires cap and rotor.

Whats the cost on that, I've been looking around the engine for it, but don't know its location.

OK, found the fuel pressure regulator. Talked it over with a friend that knows TBI systems. He said that it would cause a hard start condition but because my problem only happens in the winter, he doubt that its my issue.

We took the air cleaner off and started the eninge and noticed another vacuum leak. We found it at the back of the TBI where fuel vapors are sent to be burned off. He doesnt think thats the problem, but I corrected it with another hose. We noticed that the injectors or atleast one of the throttle bodies wasn't misting the fuel, well partially. There were drips in the middle of the spray. He had me get some injector cleaner, I got it and will use it next wednesday.

He told me to observe the injectors at the next hard start, see if they just drip.

OK, found the fuel pressure regulator. Talked it over with a friend that knows TBI systems. He said that it would cause a hard start condition but because my problem only happens in the winter, he doubt that its my issue.

We took the air cleaner off and started the eninge and noticed another vacuum leak. We found it at the back of the TBI where fuel vapors are sent to be burned off. He doesnt think thats the problem, but I corrected it with another hose. We noticed that the injectors or atleast one of the throttle bodies wasn't misting the fuel, well partially. There were drips in the middle of the spray. He had me get some injector cleaner, I got it and will use it next wednesday.

He told me to observe the injectors at the next hard start, see if they just drip.


Hmm, it's weird that you told me that you found the fuel pressure regulator. I called St Charles and the guy at the parts dept. told me the 3.1 doens't have a FPR. Hmm...this is so frustrating!!! Where did you locate the FPR? Good luck with the hose fix. I hope it works for you!

It bolted right to the TBI cover, they are not to be separated, but the company I found them from sells them both. I would get the cover and the FPR. Its more expensive but you pay more for the labor of getting the spring back in the housing.

Anyway I found them here

http://www.autopartsgiant.com/

I cant give you a direct link, because you dont get one, but an easy search for pressure or regulator on the 3.1L V6 will get you there. I was going to ask you where is ST charles, but it doesn't matter now of course.

I tried your trick about turning the key, it did not work for me, I think I'm dealing with another problem than you are. The reason why the key trick works, is that it builds up pressure so that your engine will recieve fuel. Either a fuel pump problem or a pressure regulator issue is your. Since my problem only happens in the cold, I'm thinking an air/temp sensore issue.

At the risk of jinxing myself, I went to fill up today, not part of the normal routine but I wanted to use the injector cleaner which requires a tank of 12 gallons put in. Today is the day that would fill the tank and meet the 12 gallon requirement, actually, I put 13 in. Car was off for 4 minutes 50 seconds. She started right up. OK, this doesn't mean that its fixed, just that the symptom has not returned this time.

OK, this is where I'm going with this. About the time, I was having trouble last year, I had noticed that the purge valve had almost come off against the hose to the fuel tank. I didn't know anything about EECS then, I just stored that memory until I needed it.

Yesterday, I decided to replace it, after testing it during the week I found it hard to blow through, (perhaps this is normal, it requires .7 PSI to open). I have found no references as to say can 1 PSI blow up a balloon? It knocked me out just trying to blow through it. I'm not a smoker, nor am I the healthest guy out there, but I found it disconcerning that I had to use practically every ounce of force to get that valve to open, still, this might be normal I have no idea what .7 PSI feels like.

So, I called around and found it was a dealer only item, called the dealer I sometimes use and they could not find a part number to order (now I'm convinced that this is the problem). They wanted me to get the number off the valve which I did and called them back. This was a manufacturing number not the izusu number. I called Izusu, they had christmas break. There was a name on the valve (AISIN), found thier number online and gave them a call. Spoke to someone, but the person could not get me the info I needed, but she was all alone and wanted me to call back on Monday.

I have the workshop manual and found a reference to a control valve, called the dealer back, together we were able to determine the part number. That was tough!! Its on order!

So what I'm thinking is that, with messing around with the valve, freed it up (for now), I totally expected to not see the problem today and I didn't, so I'm leading toward the EECS system as the failure right now. I figure that when it fails again, I will have the valve and then put it in. The canister would be next, it 13 years old thats a long time.

Something else to mention. Today, after getting a fill up and driving home, with the engine running I pulled the line out of the canister that leads to the TVS (I believe its labeled Purge on the canister). The other line is labeled as To Tank, this is where the control valve is located. I heard suction, a sharp pop noise when removed, The sound of a good vacuum being broken. I never heard this before, even when I found that this same line disconnected by one of the mechanics (I dont go to anymore). There is definitely vacuum going on there where there wasn't before.

Could it be the new hose?

Recieved the purge valve, well sort of. Its the wrong one, so I will have to go back to the dealer and get the correct one.