Here's my 2-cents worth:

I have the k & n fipk. No improvement in mpg.

Nice little increase in low and mid range power.

Nice little sound.

Howerver, keeps triggering the maf code and throwing the ses ligth on.

Dealer did tell me (about 6 months ago) that gm will probably send out a tsb.

I am going to a least clean my maf. Will post any results.

Still unclear on how this affects the auto trans.

I just pulled and checked my MAS. I've used K&N since about 1-2 months after I bought my '02 (31K+ miles) and found it clean as a whistle. It's not the oil treated filter that'll cause you problems. It's the oil treated filter which was over treated that'll cause problems. I won't deny it has happened to people, but for those masses that do it right, it shouldn't be a problem. I won't make any miledge statements as the two variables we can't monitor at a consistant rate are driving habits and the traffic we deal with. If thre is a gain with the FIPK, its probably minimal at best. What I can saw is I feel I have a better running, more effecient engine. I was really able to tell it last summer hauling a travel trailer to up to Lake Tahoe and what I experienced was significant, both in power and mildedge (+1-2) compared to what I've experienced before (that is constant for me in how I drive it). For me FIPK works..That's all that matters!!!

I'm not so sure I agreed with your original explanation. Some of the engineers I've spoken with say that the O2 sensors are in charge. If the O2 is not at its target, the fuel/air mixture will be adjusted (within limits) to make the O2 right. This is how it would compensate for different elevations, for example. Also, you said the ratio was based on VOLUME. The 'M' in MAFS stands for mass. Sorry.....you could still be right.

How are you going to ask someone a question, and then argue with them when they answer? GMMerlin is smarter than your average bear.

Do we agree that the high $$ intake, with no other mods, shouldn't and won't increase mpg, but may improve full throttle performance?

I don't

The PCM uses the O2 sensors to read the O2 content of the exhaust stream. Low O2 readings indicate a large amount of O2 in the exhaust stream (indicating a lean condition).
High O2 readings indicate a rich exhaust.
The PCM tries to compensate for the O2 readings by adjusting the Pulse Width of the Injectors (On time) to either add or remove fuel. This is called Fuel trim.
Positive fuel trim is the PCM adding fuel to compensate for a lean condition while Negative fuel trim is the PCM removing fuel to compensate for a rich condition.
A PCM could fail and not compensate for either a rich or lean condition.
This was my quote

Some of the engineers I've spoken with say that the O2 sensors are in charge. If the O2 is not at its target, the fuel/air mixture will be adjusted (within limits) to make the O2 right. This is how it would compensate for different elevations, for example.
Isn't that what I stated above? :banghead:


The theory behind the high air flow filters is more air can enter under less throttle. This means less fuel is needed so MPG could be increased.
This is their theory not mine. But this could be the reason why people claim HP increase.



How are you going to ask someone a question, and then argue with them when they answer? GMMerlin is smarter than your average bear.
I did learn something from a Bear...shit doesn't stick to rabbit fur, so that is why they wipe there asses with rabbits :rofl:

well, how does an air filter (excessively oiled or otherwise) cause the trany to slip? I mean, to me, it seems like I could take a dump in my air box and have no effect on the tranny.

The MAF is one of the inputs used for trans shift strategy, If the readings are schewed by oil contaminated sensing wires, the trans could be operating under too low of a pressure and this would cause a slip condition.
If oil contamination from the OIL BATH air filter is the cause of the concern, then warranty coverage does not apply because the vehicle has been modified from factory configuration and the modification caused the concern..not a factory defect.

How are you going to ask someone a question, and then argue with them when they answer? GMMerlin is smarter than your average bear.

There are lots of wrong answers on this board...it isn't a problem. You just have to weed things out, and decide for yourself which one makes sense. You've never had an answer to a question of yours that seemed wrong?

I don't

...you don't agree that there is no mpg increase? What did you see when the only change you made was the air intake?

...you don't agree that there is no mpg increase? What did you see when the only change you made was the air intake?


Can't comment, which is why I don't agree. I changed a whole bunch of things within a few days of the air cleaner

The MAF is one of the inputs used for trans shift strategy, If the readings are schewed by oil contaminated sensing wires, the trans could be operating under too low of a pressure and this would cause a slip condition.
If oil contamination from the OIL BATH air filter is the cause of the concern, then warranty coverage does not apply because the vehicle has been modified from factory configuration and the modification caused the concern..not a factory defect.

I gotcha... makes sense. But if, for instance, you have your tranny line pressure already increase thru the PCM, it seems that this wouldbe someting you don't really have to worry about. Is that correct?

Hey GMMerlin....I think you made a typo on the comments about high O2 telling the computer that there is a rich condition.....

(I asked this on an earlier post) In one post, you said that the O2 sensors are in charge. That's what I think happens. In the next post, you said that the computer tries to control the air/fuel ratio at 14.7. Since there will be times when the inlet mixture (that you said is based on VOLUME) will give you a rich condition (like, at high altitude), won't the computer change the ratio?

Originally Posted by BlenderWizard
How are you going to ask someone a question, and then argue with them when they answer? GMMerlin is smarter than your average bear.

There are lots of wrong answers on this board...it isn't a problem. You just have to weed things out, and decide for yourself which one makes sense. You've never had an answer to a question of yours that seemed wrong?

I don't

When, exactly, did I ever say that? But, to respond to that, as I assuming it is a typo: When you come in here or go to the store or go anywhere and ask someone a question, it puts you in the position that you don't know the answer (why else would you ask a question, unless you don't know the answer?). Then, for someone to answer your question (especially someone in GMMerlin's position), and you argue with them about their answer is arrogant beyond words.

Here's a question. Will the DIC "fuel economy" feature indicate a change in MPG?

I just pulled and checked my MAS. I've used K&N since about 1-2 months after I bought my '02 (31K+ miles) and found it clean as a whistle. It's not the oil treated filter that'll cause you problems. It's the oil treated filter which was over treated that'll cause problems. I won't deny it has happened to people, but for those masses that do it right, it shouldn't be a problem. I won't make any miledge statements as the two variables we can't monitor at a consistant rate are driving habits and the traffic we deal with. If thre is a gain with the FIPK, its probably minimal at best. What I can saw is I feel I have a better running, more effecient engine. I was really able to tell it last summer hauling a travel trailer to up to Lake Tahoe and what I experienced was significant, both in power and mildedge (+1-2) compared to what I've experienced before (that is constant for me in how I drive it). For me FIPK works..That's all that matters!!!


I havn't re-oiled my filter yet. I cleaned it a few weeks ago and did not re-oil it just to see what happens with the maf code I have been getting.

If you do, easy does it. Use just enough to turn it from white. You might want to oil it though just the same. EZ Duz It!!

I soak mine on 20W/50 then throw it in the air box all drippin with oil to make sure it gets all the bad dust out of my engine. I may be wrong in doing this though :dunno:

I learned the oil soak thing in a forum on the internet so I thought I would give it a try. Hey, afetr all, if the info is from the internet, it has got to be true right? :dunno:








JK

I soak mine on 20W/50 then throw it in the air box all drippin with oil to make sure it gets all the bad dust out of my engine. I may be wrong in doing this though :dunno:

I learned the oil soak thing in a forum on the internet so I thought I would give it a try. Hey, afetr all, if the info is from the internet, it has got to be true right? :dunno:








JK

That works pretty well, but only AFTER you ignite it. The oil smoke works wonders for your fuel economy.

I soak mine on 20W/50 then throw it in the air box all drippin with oil to make sure it gets all the bad dust out of my engine. I may be wrong in doing this though :dunno:

I learned the oil soak thing in a forum on the internet so I thought I would give it a try. Hey, afetr all, if the info is from the internet, it has got to be true right? :dunno:

JK

You guys are starting to scare me...mostly because you're making more sense than the rest of this thread. Beer Here!!!
:cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:

*B, double E, double R, U, N, beerrun*


... somebody ban me


GO COLTS


ok,ok I'm done now. I contributed absolutely nothing to this thread.

Any more bricks, Anyone, Bueller, Anyone????? :bricks1: :bricks1::bricks1:

Hey GMMerlin....I think you made a typo on the comments about high O2 telling the computer that there is a rich condition.....

(I asked this on an earlier post) In one post, you said that the O2 sensors are in charge. That's what I think happens. In the next post, you said that the computer tries to control the air/fuel ratio at 14.7. Since there will be times when the inlet mixture (that you said is based on VOLUME) will give you a rich condition (like, at high altitude), won't the computer change the ratio?

OK last time...
I think you made a typo on the comments about high O2 telling the computer that there is a rich condition.....
Stop trying to think, it doesn't serve you well..just listen.
High O2 reading = rich exhaust
Low O2 reading = lean exhaust
O2 sensors read the oxygen content in the exhaust, the reading (voltage) goes low if there is alot of oxygen (lean condition) and the voltage goes high if there is a low oxygen content in the exhaust (rich condition)

The PCM tries to maintain a 14.7 to 1 air/fuel ratio.
It does this by using the input from the O2 sensors (along with some other sensors) to determine if the injectors need to open or close longer to add or remove fuel to keep the engine at the 14.7 to 1 air/fuel ratio.
This adjustment is constant as the engine is running (hence the reason O2 voltages constantly go up and down)
If the O2 goes low (lean) , the PCM will compensate by opening the injector a little longer (positive fuel trim) and if the reading goes high (rich) the PCM will compensate by closing the injector sooner (negative fuel trim)

How come I get a headache everytime I respond to your posts? :banghead:

OK last time...

Stop trying to think, it doesn't serve you well..just listen.
High O2 reading = rich exhaust
Low O2 reading = lean exhaust
O2 sensors read the oxygen content in the exhaust, the reading (voltage) goes low if there is alot of oxygen (lean condition) and the voltage goes high if there is a low oxygen content in the exhaust (rich condition)

The PCM tries to maintain a 14.7 to 1 air/fuel ratio.
It does this by using the input from the O2 sensors (along with some other sensors) to determine if the injectors need to open or close longer to add or remove fuel to keep the engine at the 14.7 to 1 air/fuel ratio.
This adjustment is constant as the engine is running (hence the reason O2 voltages constantly go up and down)
If the O2 goes low (lean) , the PCM will compensate by opening the injector a little longer (positive fuel trim) and if the reading goes high (rich) the PCM will compensate by closing the injector sooner (negative fuel trim)

How come I get a headache everytime I respond to your posts? :banghead:


I tried to warn him... DON'T ARGUE WITH THE MASTER!

OK last time...

Stop trying to think, it doesn't serve you well..just listen.
High O2 reading = rich exhaust
Low O2 reading = lean exhaust
O2 sensors read the oxygen content in the exhaust, the reading (voltage) goes low if there is alot of oxygen (lean condition) and the voltage goes high if there is a low oxygen content in the exhaust (rich condition)

The PCM tries to maintain a 14.7 to 1 air/fuel ratio.
It does this by using the input from the O2 sensors (along with some other sensors) to determine if the injectors need to open or close longer to add or remove fuel to keep the engine at the 14.7 to 1 air/fuel ratio.
This adjustment is constant as the engine is running (hence the reason O2 voltages constantly go up and down)
If the O2 goes low (lean) , the PCM will compensate by opening the injector a little longer (positive fuel trim) and if the reading goes high (rich) the PCM will compensate by closing the injector sooner (negative fuel trim)






How come I get a headache everytime I respond to your posts? :banghead:

Why are you getting so insulting......

Can't you see that when the fuel trim changes, the air/fuel mixture changes? When you design controls, you have to be careful about over-constraining the equations. If the engineers wrote a program that said the O2 must be at X and the ratio must be at Y, the two would fight each other. (OOps...the O2 sensor is high...so I'll add more fuel...but now the ratio is off.....) Either the O2 sensors or the ratio has to be in control. You can't have the ratio be at 14.7 and the O2 be on target under all conditions.

So these O2 meters read low voltage with high O2. My apologies...all of the non-automotive O2 sensors I've worked with were the other way.

I still don't agree with your comment about the ratio being based on VOLUME. The computer would have to manipulate the number from the MASS air flow sensor (which you youself said reads in grams/sec) and convert it to volume using the air temperature and pressure (PV=nRT). Mass is a cleaner indication of the number of O2 molecules.

Why are you getting so insulting......

Can't you see that when the fuel trim changes, the air/fuel mixture changes? When you design controls, you have to be careful about over-constraining the equations. If the engineers wrote a program that said the O2 must be at X and the ratio must be at Y, the two would fight each other. (OOps...the O2 sensor is high...so I'll add more fuel...but now the ratio is off.....) Either the O2 sensors or the ratio has to be in control. You can't have the ratio be at 14.7 and the O2 be on target under all conditions.

So these O2 meters read low voltage with high O2. My apologies...all of the non-automotive O2 sensors I've worked with were the other way.

I still don't agree with your comment about the ratio being based on VOLUME. The computer would have to manipulate the number from the MASS air flow sensor (which you youself said reads in grams/sec) and convert it to volume using the air temperature and pressure (PV=nRT). Mass is a cleaner indication of the number of O2 molecules.

You may as well be arguing with a dictionary...

Why are you getting so insulting......

Can't you see that when the fuel trim changes, the air/fuel mixture changes? When you design controls, you have to be careful about over-constraining the equations. If the engineers wrote a program that said the O2 must be at X and the ratio must be at Y, the two would fight each other. (OOps...the O2 sensor is high...so I'll add more fuel...but now the ratio is off.....) Either the O2 sensors or the ratio has to be in control. You can't have the ratio be at 14.7 and the O2 be on target under all conditions.

So these O2 meters read low voltage with high O2. My apologies...all of the non-automotive O2 sensors I've worked with were the other way.

I still don't agree with your comment about the ratio being based on VOLUME. The computer would have to manipulate the number from the MASS air flow sensor (which you youself said reads in grams/sec) and convert it to volume using the air temperature and pressure (PV=nRT). Mass is a cleaner indication of the number of O2 molecules.

I can see your point. That was the question I was having. If I were to run a ram air or turbo, would that much more fuel pour into my engine in proportion? If FIPK means I have to use less throttle, does that mean that now using less throttle means using more gas with less foot? It sort of kills the idea of more air being more effecient. I dread the thought of the miledge I'd get under those conditions. Somewhere along the way, the system has to adjust itself to run effeciently as wel as effectively. I say this only because I have questions and doubts. I've been searching the net looking for a legitimate site out there that'll explain how the ratio works and how mass air volume effects it.

I question all claims at this point. The acetone gig is an example. I tried it according to prescription and yielded no improvement (tried with two cars)!!! Now I have some acetone sitting in my toxic cabinet in my garage waiting for another use...no big deal. Opinions are like toes..most perople have at least ten of them...me included!!! And as stated before..the internet is full of it.

I have an idea. buy the filter, or kit. Try it, if you dont like it, sell it. There, a simple answer that you can't argue with.

Just take a look at most people's list of mods....7 out of 10 include a K&N cold air kit. Numbers speak louder than words sometimes.

I have an idea. buy the filter, or kit. Try it, if you dont like it, sell it. There, a simple answer that you can't argue with.

Just take a look at most people's list of mods....7 out of 10 include a K&N cold air kit. Numbers speak louder than words sometimes.
:werd:

Why are you getting so insulting......

Because I have explained this numerous times and you are not getting it :banghead:

Can't you see that when the fuel trim changes, the air/fuel mixture changes? When you design controls, you have to be careful about over-constraining the equations. If the engineers wrote a program that said the O2 must be at X and the ratio must be at Y, the two would fight each other. (OOps...the O2 sensor is high...so I'll add more fuel...but now the ratio is off.....) Either the O2 sensors or the ratio has to be in control. You can't have the ratio be at 14.7 and the O2 be on target under all conditions.

This is what I said “The PCM tries to maintain a 14.7 to 1 air/fuel ratio.” I didn’t say it DOES maintain a 14.7 to 1 ratio, I said it TRIES to maintain the ratio.
As the throttle plate moves, more air enters the intake, combustion chamber (and will enter the exhaust) The TPS, MAF, ETC,IAT and the MAP sensors also help with fuel control, but the O2 sensors are the main input that tells the PCM to attempt to maintain the 14.7 to 1 ratio.
On acceleration we will see a slightly richer mixture, on decell we will see a slightly leaner mixture the O2 sensors see this change and the PCM will make adjustments (most of the time, this occurs at idle or while maintaining a steady throttle position, but this could occur during a change in throttle position where a larger or smaller change in O2 voltages was seen)
Here is an example. Vehicle hesitates on acceleration and the O2 voltage goes to 150mv (lean).
When the PCM sees this lean condition, fuel trims will go positive to compensate for this lean condition (injector on time will be longer).
These fuel trims can be done over a short time (short adjustment) or a long time (gross adjustment) depending on if the PCM can compensate for the condition.
The condition could be caused by a low fuel pressure concern.
This is how the PCM tries to maintain the 14.7 to 1 air/fuel ratio.
Fuel delivery strategies are calculated for different operating conditions to take in account throttle positions and engine loads.




So these O2 meters read low voltage with high O2. My apologies...all of the non-automotive O2 sensors I've worked with were the other way.

No problem, but you have to be careful when comparing operating systems.
Apples and Oranges




I still don't agree with your comment about the ratio being based on VOLUME. The computer would have to manipulate the number from the MASS air flow sensor (which you youself said reads in grams/sec) and convert it to volume using the air temperature and pressure (PV=nRT). Mass is a cleaner indication of the number of O2 molecules.


Ok here is what I said “The high efficiency filter may increase MPG based on VOLUME.
If you can create the same horse power using less air, you will reduce the need for fuel and still maintain the 14.7 to 1 air/fuel ratio and this is the theory of high efficiency air filters.”
Now this may not be clear.
The theory of these air filters is that they make it easier for the engine to pull in air.
If I can pull in 15 cubic feet of air at 10% TPS with a standard air filter and I can pull in 25 cubic feet of air at 10% TPS with a high efficiency air filter, I can pull a larger volume of air at the same throttle position.
This means that in theory I use less throttle to get the same amount of air and this is how they claim that you can see a MPG increase.
I believe this theory is flawed, but using the same numbers, I can see where you could get an increase in power because if you can increase the amount of air you pull into the combustion chamber while pulling in more fuel at the same throttle position, you will see an increase in power (this is the theory of turbo and super chargers along with nitrous oxide) MORE AIR + MORE FUEL = MORE POWER



(which you youself said reads in grams/sec)
I never said that in this conversation. :screwy:

Now I need a Tylenol and a double shot of Jack Daniels

Now I need a Tylenol and a double shot of Jack Daniels

I've got the Tylenol if you've got the Jack!!:grinyes:

Right! Improvement in full throttle performance, but most likely, no mpg improvement. You even get better throttle response, because at the same throttle position, you get more air with the fancy filter, and the computer sends the appropriate amount of additional fuel.

But, you see that both air/fuel AND the O2 sensor reading can be controlled....they are not independent. If a long-term condition exists where both the O2 and ratio can't be at their target, which one wins? (This was my original question from the thread that was merged.) Will the ratio stay at a point different from its target to keep the O2 on target, or will it be the other way around?

This is important, because if the ratio is in charge, all you need to do to run lean is to fake out the MAFS. When you read the posts about tornado intake thing, it makes you believe that the O2 sensors are in charge. Apparently, it temporarily fakes out the MAFS, and makes the engine run lean for a short time. Then once the O2 sensors are back on target, everything is back to normal, and there is no mpg increase.

Don't you think that ratio of 14.7 is a weird coincidence? (14.7 psi = 1 atm.)

Believe me....you're not the only one getting a headache......

I have an idea. buy the filter, or kit. Try it, if you dont like it, sell it. There, a simple answer that you can't argue with.

Just take a look at most people's list of mods....7 out of 10 include a K&N cold air kit. Numbers speak louder than words sometimes.


I have a cheaper idea...... Tape a piece of cardboard over 1/5 of the intake side of the air filter. You'll have to mash the gas pedal more to get the same acceleration and maintain your normal cruising speed, but I bet, if you did this for 3 tanks of gas, you would,'t see a change in mpg. Then, you could sell the cardboard.

man, let it go

I have a cheaper idea...... Tape a piece of cardboard over 1/5 of the intake side of the air filter. You'll have to mash the gas pedal more to get the same acceleration and maintain your normal cruising speed, but I bet, if you did this for 3 tanks of gas, you would,'t see a change in mpg. Then, you could sell the cardboard.And I bet I'd make more off the cardboard than you have off of your thoughts on this topic.

I'll tell you what. You keep your cardboard. And I'll give you my FIPK. If you like it, you give me $13478.

I got sucked into putting a K&N high flow into my truck. Don't notice any extra power and the gas mileage is still the same. Didn't make any difference, just lightened up my wallet.

Same here,didn't help one little bit.I could have used that money for gas.

I need a little advise. How would I clean the MAF? I bought this thing with 28k on it and it now has 31k. I decided to change air filter today and "low and behold" It has a K&N filter in it. The MAF didn't seem to be oily and I took a paper towel and lightly wiped everything I could. Can I spray it with carb cleaner or what?

Also, you might check out Horsepower TV (which is the name of the show, check your local listings), on Spike TV this coming Saturday (Saturday, October 29 @ 11:00 AM). I've seen this episode before, and they install a K&N FIPK on a 94 mustang and dyno it before and after the install. I forgot what the exact HP gains were, but they are definitely there. Anyway, i just thought I'd throw that out there.

Youse guys are funny!!!! I admit I noticed a bigger difference with my carburated '72 Blazer after adding a K&N. I had a solid 10% gain in mileage as well as better throttle response. Of course the Blazer is carb'd, with 2 vacuum lines, and points. No computer to argue with. I also admit I haven't noticed as obvious a difference in my '04 TBI 4.3 V6. I didn't get 10%, but did notice a slight increase in mileage, and I'm happy I have an air filter that will last the life of the truck. By the time I have run this thing into the ground, I would have spent as much or more on paper filters anyway. I took a hard look at a site that showed dyno comparisons between a regular paper filter, and an FIPK kit. For my application, the gains weren't noticable until the engine got up around 4,000 rpm and higher. I rarely run mine in that range, so I just opted for the filter only.

Here is a site you might want to chck out on air filters.
home.usadatanet.net/~jbplock/ISO5011/SPICER.htm
MT-2500