should I change my tranny fluid?

Should I change my tranny fluid?

My 2000 Intrigue has 80,000 miles and shifts great. It seems when people change their 4T65E tranny fluid their tranny has a higher chance of blowing up than if they would have just left it alone. It's almost as if GM put a miracle substance in the stock fluid that keeps the tranny together and their is no way to replace it.

I have decide to not change the fluid until I feel that the tranny is not performing as well as it should (slipping). Then I will go synthetic and buy the highest costing crap out their in hopes of keeping my tranny alive.

If you wait until the tranny is slipping you have waited too long and the tranny will need to be repaired or replaced. By all means change the fluid and filter. Just don't have it flushed with a machine. The new fluid and filter will help the tranny last longer. Just make sure that you utilize correct fluid for you transmission as recommended in the owners manual.

If the tranny has never got a fluid change so far at 88,000 miles then I believe you're on borrowed time/milage, as all fluids do degrade over time and usage, GM miracle substance in or not, and a degraded fluid are likely far more harmful to your car than a fluid-n-filter change service.

It sounds interesting to me when you say 4T65E trannies seem more likely to break down after a fluid change. Because if it were true, why would GM recommend a fluid change at certain milage at all. And even if it really seems so, are there any proven facts or statistics that support the cause and result relationship? Could we change the perspective a bit and say "if they had changed the fluid more often than they did their trannies could have lasted a lot longer"?

Mine is a 2000 GLS and at about the same milage as yours. She's got tranny fluid change twice and nothing surprising has ever happened.

I would definitely get a tranny service if I were you. But after all it's your car, and I could be all wrong.:)

Just my 2 cents. :2cents:

GMs recommended interval is 100K miles for the 4T65E tranny. Heavy duty use for police, taxi, etc. is 50K miles. However, nowadays we all fall under the latter category. I perform my service at 50K miles intervals using an OEM AC Delco filter, high quality Dextron-III and have zero after effects.

BTW - I agree with the others. The tranny is more likely to fail if its flushed.

Have a "99 intrigue with 77K miles. Use it a lot under severe service conditions. Had tranny flushed at 44K miles with no problems. At 72K had another tranny flush which caused "launch shudder" on occasion. Suspect that not all of the cleaning fluid was removed. Subsequently had a normal filter and fluid change and added a bottle of Lubegard. Tranny is now shifting and acting normally. I'm also "racing" the car in 2nd gear once in awhile to get the RPM over 4000+ in order to increase the internal pressure thru the passages.

In the future will get a tranny fluid and filter change at 50K mile intervals and will use Lubegard. No more tranny flushes for Jimmy Olsen.

wow this is a hot topic! I thought this forum was beginning to die.

This is the first V6 or FWD car I have ever owned. All my other cars were V8s. I do change my tranny fluid and am very careful that I never overfill !! But in the Intrigue I have thought this over with contempt.

At 80k miles I feel the fluid should be changed. And I will most likely add a transguard type additive.

The fluid will hydrostatically slip after it starts to break down (get thinner). This also makes the tranny run hotter. That is what I meant by slip.

It's a good sign that people have been changing their tranny fluid regularly with no problems. I was beginning to wonder.

I never believed in any tranny additive but products like "Lubegard" with LXE work great. It will free up sticky solenoids that aren't too far gone and saved us what could have amounted to thousands of dollars of repairs on my father's Intrigue and our Regal LS.

Also they make a flush type additive that you can add before doing a ATF fluid and filter change.

Regardless, a tranny additive fluid protectant makes sense because it helps restore degraded fluid. Even if thoroughly drained, there will be approximately 2 to 3 quarts of old ATF remaining like in the torque convertor.

I changed mine, myself, at 44,000 miles. I was relieved to see that there were no metal flakes in the pan, as I know these transmissions have had a history of coming apart. I also refilled with Mobil One ATF (synthetic) @ $6 a quart. It took 7 quarts, or a little more. I think being able to get 7 quarts out is pretty good. I think it holds 10 quarts total. The next time after I do it, it will be almost pure Mobil One.

Your transmission is still good after 80,000 milles and no change. Lucky. I should have bought the intrigue instead of the aurora. My 02 aurora only has 44,000 miles on it an is already acting strange.

My 02 Intrigue just passed 50k and I've been thinking about changing the transmission fluid. I too have read about Intrigue transmissions dying after changing the fluid so I've been hesitant. However, I doubt it's gonna last another 50k without changing.

I don't normally do my own maintenance, but I'd be willing to give it a shot in order to make sure it's done right with quality ATF. Does anybody know where I can find step-by-step instructions?

This is from alldatadiy.com (25$ a year) -I recommend it. Will come with diagrams.

GM #8656613 Pan seal (gasket) ~$6 (may be worth getting = better than aftermarket, original was a plastic/rubber type, which I reused)
GM #24227477 Filter ~$20 (the one I took off was a Fram)
my be purchased as a kit?
There is also a plastic bushing (sleeve) that comes with the filter to connect the filter to the transmission. To get the old filter off I had to pull on the filter with a turning motion to free it from the bushing, it wouldn't come off just by pulling straight.

I reused my tranny pan gasket because it was so much better than the new one they gave me. Go to Rockauto.com to get the best prices. I was able to get just a fram tranny filter locally for $11, but it didn't come with the gasket (which you may not want/need). I bought another filter and gasket set for $25 (couldn't buy gasket seperately locally -aftermarket only open on labor day not GM--I thought I would need the gasket-I didn't). I bought the lubeguard 10oz package for $11 from Napa and added that in also. I had an older gallon jug of Dextron III that I used, but in 2004 they reformulated to Dextron III (H) so you may want to buy new. I used the fram filter and gave the other kit to my dad who has an Intrigue -also should work with a 4T60 tranny also. You should have a torque wrench also in my opinion to retighten bolts, Harbor freight has them for less than $15. I had a Harbor Freight inch-pounds torgue wrench (ft lbs x 12 = inch lbs) that I used, but it took a few turns to get it clicking right. With the car on ramps the fluid came out on one side nice. An oil catch bucket was used to catch the tranny fluid. Read your owners handbook carefully (page 6-20) to check the for correct tranny fluid height. The dipstick add 1 is in pints.

I'm thinking of buying all my parts online from now on. Either GMpartsdirect or RockAuto --it's so much easier and almost 50%cheaper.

7.4 qts bottom pan off
10 qts overhaul
13.4 dry

So even if you change your tranny fluid you are only changing out 55.2% (7.4/13.4) of it. --Barely half. 50K change intervals make sense to me.


2000 Oldsmobile Intrigue V6-214 3.5L VIN H SFI
Top - Vehicle
Transmission and Drivetrain
. Automatic Transmission/Transaxle
. . Fluid Pan
. . . Service and Repair

.


Notes

Service and Repair
Removal Procedure



Notice: Do NOT use any type of grease to retain parts during the assembly of this unit. Using greases other than the recommended assembly lube changes the transaxle fluid characteristics. Using greases other than the recommended assembly lube causes undesirable shift conditions and/or filter clogging. Use TRANSJEL(TM) J 36850 or equivalent during the assembly of this unit.

Raise and support the vehicle. Refer to Vehicle Lifting.
Place a drain pan under the transaxle bottom oil pan
Remove the oil pan bolts (23) from the front.
Remove the oil pan bolts from the sides.
Loosen the rear oil pan bolts approximately four turns. Notice: Ensure care is taken NOT to damage the mating surfaces of the oil pan and of the case or oil leaks may occur.
Use a rubber mallet to lightly tap the oil pan or use a screwdriver to pry the oil pan loose.
Allow the fluid to drain.
Remove the remaining oil pan bolts (23).
Remove the oil pan (24).
Remove the oil pan gasket (25).
Inspect the oil pan and the filter screen for the following foreign material:
Inspect for metal particles.
Inspect for clutch facing material.
Inspect for rubber particles.
Inspect for engine coolant.
Determine the source of the contamination if foreign material is evident.
Correct the source of the contamination.




Inspect the oil pan flange (1) for distortion.
Replace the oil pan (1) if bent or distorted. Do not attempt to straighten.




Inspect the washers on the bolts when service requires the removal of the bottom oil pan.




Install a new bolt and washer assembly if the washer is inverted.




Inspect the oil pan (24) for the following conditions:
A damaged sealing surface
A dented or cracked bottom surface
Inspect the oil pan gasket (25) for the following conditions:
A bent or damaged seal core
A damaged rubber seal surface
A damaged gasket
Inspect the oil pan magnet (26) for the following conditions:
Damage
Misalignment
Clean the oil pan, the gasket and the magnet in order to remove any sediment. Notice: Ensure the oil pan and the case flanges are dry and are free of any oil film or leakage may result.
Use solvent to clean the case.
Air dry the case.
Use solvent to clean the oil pan gasket surfaces.
Air dry the oil pan gasket surfaces.
Ensure all traces of the old gasket material are removed.
Installation Procedure




Install the oil pan gasket (25).
Install the oil pan (24). Notice: Refer to Fastener Notice in Service Precautions.
Install the oil pan bolts (23).
Tighten the oil pan bolts (23) to 14 Nm (10 ft. lbs.) .
Lower the vehicle.
Fill the transaxle with the proper quantity of DEXRON(R) III.
Place the gear selector in the Park position.
Start the engine.
Run the engine at a slow idle. Do NOT race the engine. Notice: Do NOT overfill the transaxle. The overfilling of the transaxle causes foaming, loss of fluid, shift
complaints, and possible damage to the transaxle.

Adjust the fluid level. Refer to Transmission Fluid Checking Procedure, Capacities - Approximate Fluid.
Inspect for proper completion of the repairs.
Inspect the fluid for leaks.

[QUOTE=panzer dragoon]Should I change my tranny fluid?

I usually do not change the transmission fluid and other than burning up clutches in a transmission up when I first started driving, I never have had a automatic transmission go bad (had several standards go bad) in 30 years. I usually sell my cars when they have 150k miles on them.

I have talked to several transmission builders and they have stated to follow manufactures recommended change.

One thing they did tell me is if you do change the fluid in a high mile transmission, the new transmission fluid will dissolve the friction material on the clutches, which will result in slippage and the material plugging all the orifices, valves and cause the transmission to go catastrophic.

Also the builders recommended if I did change the transmission fluid and wanted it to last a long time, to change in more frequent intervals than recommend, one said every 10,000 miles, the other stated once a year.

Now defining a high mileage vehicle may be difficult since some manufactures recommend at 50 to 60k and some as much as 100k.

On my 2000 Intrigue a leak developed around the transmission side cover and I had to change the fluid when it was repaired. I will change the fluid once a year because I drive my vehicle under ideal conditions: 30 miles highway round trip to work with only two signal lights. This is ideal since I don’t have stop and go traffic (which is extremely hard on a cold engine and transmission).

I have always hated stop and go traffic and every time I have moved my first priority is the drive to work must have minimal stop and go traffic. This is probably why I have such good luck with vehicles.

Ok, so that makes 2 for "Hells No!" under the poll. I was the first, but that was before my spineless body succumbed to the pressure by other forum members.

My dad has 125k+ miles on his 99 Intrigue 3.5L (without a tranny fluid change-he will probably change it out now) and he bought it used after it was used as a part of a rental fleet. I think it had 33K miles when he bought it 1yr old used. My car is a 2000 and I bought it about 6 months used (rental fleet from Florida) with 17K miles on it, paid $15k -which I thought was a deal. I think my dad's was about 1K cheaper than mine. That ain't bad for probably a 23K$ car new. And at the time I needed a good car. The car's engine reminds me of my 75 350 Olds v8 (4 barrel) in terms of smooth power delivery.

I've been a auto tech for a long time now, have rebuilt many transmissions - auto and manual, and I've never heard of fresh trans fluid dissolving the friction material on the clutches. Just my 2 cents.

I'd drop the pan and change the filter and add Mobil 1 ATF. The 4T65-E has problems anyway, fresh fluid will not hurt. If it's gonna come apart it probably will anyway.

2000 Oldsmobile Intrigue V6-214 3.5L VIN H SFI
Top - Vehicle
Transmission and Drivetrain
. Automatic Transmission/Transaxle
. . Sun Gear
. . . Technical Service Bulletins
. . . . Customer Interest
. . . . . A/T - 4L60/65E No Reverse/2nd or 4th Gear

.


Notes

A/T - 4L60/65E No Reverse/2nd or 4th Gear
Bulletin No.: 00-07-30-022C
Date: December 10, 2004
TECHNICAL
Subject:
No Reverse, Second Gear or Fourth Gear (Replace Reaction Sun Shell with More Robust Heat Treated Parts)
Models:
1993-2005 Cars and Light Duty Trucks
with 4L60/65-E Automatic Transmission (RPOs M30 or M32)
Supercede:
This bulletin is being revised to correct two part numbers referenced in the vehicle groups and add text after the Parts Information table. Please discard Corporate Bulletin Number 00-07-30-022B (Section 07 - Transmission/Transaxle).
Condition
Some customers may comment on a no reverse, no second or no fourth gear condition. First and third gears will operate properly.
Cause
The reaction sun gear (673) may not hold inside the reaction sun shell (670).
Correction
Important: There are FOUR distinct groups of vehicles and repair procedures involved.
^ #1 Vehicles built in the 2001 model year and prior that make use of a reaction shaft to shell thrust washer:

^ The sun shell can be identified by four square holes used to retain the thrust washer. Use reaction sun shell P/N 24228345 reaction carrier to shell thrust washer (699B) P/N 8642202 and reaction sun gear shell thrust washer (674) P/N 8642331 along with the appropriate seals and washers listed below.

^ #2 Vehicles built in the 2001 model year and prior that have had previous service to the reaction sun shell:

^ It is possible that some 2001 and prior model year vehicles have had previous service to the reaction sun shell. At the time of service, these vehicles may have been updated with a Reaction Sun Shell Kit (Refer to Service Bulletin 02-07-30-003) without four square holes to retain the thrust washer. If it is found in a 2001 model year and prior vehicles that the reaction sun shell DOES NOT have four square holes to retain the thrust washer, these vehicles must be serviced with P/Ns 24229825 (674), 24217328 and 8642331 along with the appropriate seals and washers listed below.

^ #3 Vehicles built in the 2001 model year and later that make use of a reaction shaft to shell thrust bearing:

^ The sun shell can be identified by no holes to retain the thrust washer. Use reaction sun shell, P/N 24229825, reaction carrier shaft to shell thrust bearing (669A), P/N 24217328 and reaction sun gear shell thrust washer (674), P/N 8642331 along with the appropriate seals and washers listed below.

^ #4 Vehicles built from November, 2001 through June, 2002:

^ These vehicles should have the reaction carrier shaft replaced when the sun shell is replaced. Use shell kit P/N 24229853, which contains a sun shell (670), a reaction carrier shaft (666), a reaction carrier shaft to shell thrust bearing (669A) and a reaction sun gear shell thrust washer (674). The appropriate seals and washers listed below should also be used.

^ When servicing the transmission as a result of this condition the transmission oil cooler and lines MUST be flushed. Refer to Corporate Bulletin Number 02-07-30-052.

Follow the service procedure below for diagnosis and correction of the no reverse, no second, no forth condition.
Important: If metallic debris is found on the transmission magnet, the transmission must be completely disassembled and cleaned. Metallic debris is defined as broken parts and pieces of internal transmission components. This should not be confused with typical "normal" fine particles found on all transmission magnets. Failure to properly clean the transmission case and internal components may lead to additional repeat repairs.



1. Remove the transmission oil pan and inspect the magnet in the bottom of the pan for metal debris.

2. Remove the transmission from the vehicle. Refer to the appropriate SI document.
Important: ^ Inspect all the transmission components for damage or wear. Replace all damaged or worn components. The parts list below should be sufficient to correct this concern.

^ This condition does not normally require replacement of the transmission completely. Components such as clutches, valve body, pump and torque converters will NOT require replacement to correct this condition.


1. Disassemble the transmission and replace the appropriate parts listed below. Refer to the Unit Repair Manual - Repair Instructions.

2. Reinstall the transmission in the vehicle. Refer to appropriate service information.
When servicing the transmission as a result of this condition the transmission oil cooler and lines MUST be flushed. Refer to Corporate Bulletin Number 02-07-30-052.

A/T - DEXRON III(R) (H-Revision) Specification Upgrade
File In Section: 07 - Transmission/Transaxle
Bulletin No.: 04-07-30-037
Date: September, 2004
INFORMATION
Subject:
Release of DEXRON(R)III (H-Revision) Automatic Transmission Fluid (ATF)
Models:
2005 and Prior Cars and Light Duty Trucks
with Automatic Transmission/Transaxle
DEXRON(R)III (H-Revision) ATF
General Motors has recently upgraded the DEXRON(R)III ATF specification.
The upgraded specification is referred to as DEXRON(R)III (H-Revision). This upgrade will ensure that ATF's are commercially available to match the quality and durability of current factory-fill ATF. Fluids that meet the requirements of the H-Revision are labeled as "DEXRON(R)III", Approved for the H Specification".
The fluids labeled as DEXRON(R)III , Approved for the H Specification can be used in any transmission application which specifies the use of DEXRON(R)III , IIE, II or DEXRON(R) ATFs. DEXRON(R)III Fluids that DO NOT meet the H-Revision will not be licensed after December 31, 2004.
Current stock of DEXRON(R)III ATF can be used until the supply is depleted.

[QUOTE=kmohr3]I've been a auto tech for a long time now, have rebuilt many transmissions - auto and manual, and I've never heard of fresh trans fluid dissolving the friction material on the clutches. Just my 2 cents.

I've seen the mentioning of the new transmission fluid causing discs to deteriorate on other auto forums. Also they have mentioned that the new fluid can break varnish loose and plug up a transmission. Here’s a few links that mention this:

Clutch dissolving from new fluid
see Protoss
http://www.clubprotege.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4893

http://64.233.179.104/search?q=cache:IaxL0PQ_wgAJ:www.dodgedakotas.com/boards/ot/2031.html+%22transmission+fluid%22+dissolve+clutch&hl=en


varnish plugging up transmission
http://64.233.179.104/search?q=cache:LlNo2MyYZ58J:www.clubprotege.com/forum/showthread.php%3Ft%3D4893+transmission+fluid+clutc hes+disolve&hl=en

varnish or sludge plugging up an automatic transmission makes sense to me, but I would consider that a reason to change your tranny fluid and filter more (not just a flush). I think companies make a product that emulsifies the sludge before you change your tranny fluid out. Going synthetic oil in an older engine is sort of the same idea. The synthetic oil will pull out the sludge so you want to use some sort of emulsifier (like Marvel Mystery oil) before you take out the old oil.

Both of your examples you use are kind of poor. The 1990 Dodge van had the forward clutch plates go out (maybe) (I wonder if his rear clutch plates were still good--it still should go in reverse-the torque-flight 727 has forward and reverse clutches and his tranny would be similiar I think (TF904?), should have 2 pumps in there also). He also just had a flush done. He really didn't know what the problem was either. Could have been just a low fluid level burning up the tranny?

The Mazda is a Ford tranny right? I never liked the Ford automatics. They don't really stick like a good clutch should. Use different ATF fluid etc. His car was also pretty old and likely ready to go anyway. Plus they were working out damage to the front end. Seems like they had many problems. Probably should have looked at a rebuild with the tranny out.

Is tranny fluid acidic? --One of the features of LubeGuard is that it lowers the acidity of transmission fluid especially at high temps.

A clutch is a clutch and is supposed to wear. I think I have heard of people using sand etc in a clutch to get to the finish line in an off road race (usually motorcycle) in an emergency when the clutch was slipping. I think the wear in a clutch friction plate is minimal with the addition of new fluid. A case where this may be useful is when you burn a clutch like in rock crawling etc and the fiber-friction plate gets glazed by the heat. You may need some abrasive to get the clutch to grip again. Abrasives are sometimes added to oil in new engines -I think this happened when the Chev V8 first came out in 1955. The rings weren't gripping the cylinder wall enough and it was embarrassingly burning too much oil. --This was from a new engine.

Note: I don't recommend adding abrasives to your transmission (and especially engine), unless you are the one going to fix the after-effect. The sand added to the motorcycle tranny was only done in a race type situation or emergency and I'm sure the whole thing had to be taken apart and cleaned meticulously with the clutch metal plates and friction plates completely replaced along with the carrier housing and all the bearings. Also a motorcycle tannny is much simplier than an automatic car tranny with no passages for fluid to go thru etc. I'm sure sand would just plug up an autumatic auto tranny and cause it to not work at all and massively overheat. Imagine trying to get sand out of all those pores and missing one grain that could jam up one passage. --It would be easier just buying a new one.


Bon-Ami and the 55 Chev V8 reference: (I didn't want people to think I was nutz about this)

http://corvaircenter.com/forum/read.php?f=1&i=4009&t=4009

Bon-Ami rebuttal: (I don't think they new about the 55 Chev V8 situation)
http://www.cartalk.com/content/columns/Archive/1998/October/02.html

Transmission slippage helper (good luck on how long it will help) increases transmission pressure to get friction (high pressure may not be a good idea). Ad from automotiveforums.com.

http://www.transmaticsc.com/


Couldn't find any transmission abrasives, but if you go to an auto supply store i'm sure there is some snake oil to try out. -And maybe it will work for you.

I agree with Panzer on this, they are not very good examples, also what were the qualifications of the technicians?

I sure wouldn't worry about changing trans fluid from what happened to those people - it's hearsay - they probably did have problems before that anyway. Especially the first guy with the Mazda. You never know how badly this transmission was rough-housed trying to get this axle out of the final drive carrier.

At any rate, if you have clutch disks that are that worn down to metal they need to be replaced. Pure and simple. Usually there is an accompanying problem (or abuse) causing the clutches to burn/slip. I've had transmissions apart with a lot of miles on them, that still have clutches that look like new. :)

I have 110,000 miles, and flush the tranny every 25K miles. The only change I noticed recently is that the tranny seems to upshift a little earlier at very low speeds in the morning. Otherwise, it is A-OK.

BTW, I had a 1988 Delta 88, which I bought new, and changed every 25K. I sold the car at 170,000 with the original tranny -- never touched.

Personally, I think the flush is a lot better than the drop the pan and change half the fluid method. Dod you ever see the filter you are supposed to change? Iit looks like a wire screen designed to catch the big chunks, not like your oil filter.

take the pan off the next time you change your tranny fluid. Clean off the sludge from the inside of the pan and put it back on = you are now good for another 100K miles with your flushes. I am interested in how much sludge you find since you flush your tranny fluid every 25K -which is high. I changed mine at around 90K and there was quite a bit of sludge (no flushes, no fluid changes).

The gasket is reusable and the filters are only ~$7. Torque the bolts to only 120in/lbs (AllData) = 10 FT Lbs of torque (divide by 12 for foot pounds from inch pounds) 10 FT/Lbs of torque is very little and you may want to use an inch/lb torque wrench.