90 Accord serious starting problem...please help!

My car has been having trouble lately. First went the VSS and honda wanted $600-700 to fix it along with my main relay. I replaced the VSS for only $40 (ebay cost). However, I am thinking now that my other problem was not the main relay...even though most forums have led me to this guess. Here's what is happening:

It starts and runs perfectly, but when I leave it out in the sun....specifically out in the sun and it gets all hot inside...it will turn over easily but won't fire up. Ocassionally when this happens it will start and then quickly cut out and then I'll have to wait a while till it cools off and it will start. Or if I would hook up cables to it the car would start. The honda tech said this was because it would then give it enough "juice" to power the fuel pump. So everything pointed to the main relay but I took it out and tested it and it was fine. All the solder points were fine. So I drilled 4 holes in the housing to help it vent just in case and put the relay back in.

Then just today I was driving with cruise on going about 65mph and the cruise light went off and the speedo started descending. That's when I realized that the engine just cut out! It won't start! It makes a totally different noise when trying to turn over. It sounds a lot weaker, however I do here the relay click and the fuel pump turn on. It makes a weak attempt to start with a sort of clicking noise.

What could this be? (searching says that it could be the coil, ignitor, or ECU?) Keep in mind that nothing has been done to fix the original starting problem when it gets hot from the sun. And now this? Could they be related? Anyone have this happen?

Chris

battery and alternator are fine...and i checked to see if i am getting a spark and I am NOT getting a spark. I also noticed that the plug wires are pretty coroded on the inside there by the distributor? Could that be it, Or would it most likely be the coil and or igniter?

also, what else would be affected by the sun that would temporarily prevent power to the main relay and thus to the fuel pump?

well, with your car dying like that, you should probably change your plug wires if they are that bad. When was the last time you had a tune up?

Also, with your car not starting when it's hot, i had a similar problem where after i got gas and tried to get the car started again, the TW sensor would try and do a cold start and it would dump too much fuel in. Are you getting a fuel smell when you crank over your engine when it won't start?

getting new plug wires...and no its not the ECTS. best guess is the coil and or ignitor, but I am going to see if honda will give me a new distributor since these were recalled. and maybe the main relay harness could be defective?

I'm leaning toward defective ignition switch here...

Try beating on the top of the column with your fist while cranking the motor, see what happens.

Wouldn't be the first one I've seen go out on a Honda.

It is your main relay. Why do you think it's not? Did you take it off and check it?

It is your main relay. Why do you think it's not? Did you take it off and check it?

The main relay; Where is located?

Thanks

The main relay; Where is located?

Thanks



http://www.markl.f9.co.uk/howto/ele.../main-relay.htm

http://www.markl.f9.co.uk/howto/ele.../main-relay.htm

Proman:

Can't acces web page

Thanks again

Proman:

Can't acces web page

Thanks again


Let's try again.


http://www.markl.f9.co.uk/howto/electrical/main-relay/main-relay.htm

Let's try again.


http://www.markl.f9.co.uk/howto/electrical/main-relay/main-relay.htm

Got It !!!!!!!!!!!

Thanks for the hint.

I'll keep you posted o the results.

i said above that i took it out and checked the solder points...then i did the test to see if there was continuity. it tested fine. while trying to start it, it seems to be making a totally different noise then before it stalled.

im looking into that ignition switch jeffcoslacker

beat on console while cranking...nothing (same)

still no spark...anyone?

nobody? i don't want to take it into the dealership! got a service manual today and i will start by replacing the ignition module/igniter. anyone?

I'm having the same problem. I replaced the main relay with no luck. I later found out I had no spark. I ordered a distributor assembly and will install it on Wed or Thurs. I will let you know if it was the problem.

I think you guys should slow down on just going out and buying parts willey nilley without doing some testing. It can get really expensive with minimual chance of solving the problem. The strange sound when trying to start the car leads me to believe you may have a mechanical problem. Take a look at the camshaft. Does it turn when you try to start the engine? You might look at the sparkplugs to see if they are wet with oil and/or damaged. Check voltage to the voltage input side of the coil with the key on. Then get back to us.

Hell, couldn't it just be a bad rotor or distrib. cap?

i tested the main relay, relay harness, igniter unit, coil and ignition switch. i also started by replacing the dizzy cap, rotor, wires and plugs. i am going to try the igniter unit because that is where i loose power I THINK. all tests are normal and according to the service manual, that means that the problem would be the igniter. it is an electrical problem...can tell by the sound of it. but yeah the coil is fine.

QUESTIONS:

-should that camshaft end where the distributor joins spin when i try to start the car?

-in my head it seems that if the coil is fine, then so is the igniter unit. can the igniter unit be bad and the coil be fine?

I THINK ITS MY TIMING BELT! why else would the camshaft end not turn! is that hard to replace? i have the honda service manual.

any help?

The distributor is attached to the end of the camshaft. If you pull off the oil cap, you can see the cam and it should turn when the engine turns. Also, the rotor should turn when the engine turns. If the timing belt is gone, it is a big deal. A broken timing belt usually takes a couple of valves with it when it goes. So, the head has to come off.

thanks so much mpumas...FOUND THE PROBLEM!!! took a lot of honda techs and forums to get to the bottom of this. now i can try to fix it...honda wants $1,000.00 and i can't do that so:

i went in and found the snapped timing belt...which explains the slight vibration i heard there before it went. i also have a little bit of clear green fluid dripping but its not bad. i think i remember seeing this before it broke. im in the process of replacing the belt now...this manual is helpful, but where are the valves that could be damged? any help checking these valves, location of water pump, and anything else needed while this is all open would be appreciated.
thanks.
chris

The water pumo is in the area of the timing belt lower pulleys and is driven by one of the belts. Change it while you are changing the belts. Also change all the belts. There are explicit instructions to be followed when changing the belt. Make sure you have a manual and follow the instructions. The valves are in the head and the damaged ones are only visible with the head off. However, after you get everything back together, you can do a compression check to see if any of the valve heads are bent, which is what usually happens when a belt breaks while the engine is running. By the way, how many miles on the engine since the last timing belt change? It is supposed to be changed every 90,000 miles.

no idea...i never looked into it. i just got the car july last year. i don't know if it was replaced, but the previous owners took great care of it. 151,000 on it. i have the manual. is it easy to do a compression test? what could that liquid be? should i wait to put the covers back on?

If it is green, it is probably anti-freeze. The biggest problem in do a timing belt job after it has broken is the effort to change the belt and then finding out you have bent valves and got to pull the head. You cannot do the compression check until you have the belt changed. Then you need a compression gage with a hose that you can screw down to the spark plug holes. Only then can you find out what is happening. If you have limited knowledge of engines, this job is probably more then you can do yourself. Get somebody with engine knowledge to help you.

Yeah help would be nice. i want to learn but do have very little engine knowledge (aside from my gas/nitro RC trucks) ;o) but i want to learn. i am praying the valves are fine. there was no wierd noises or anything the engine just shut down while i was driving, but i did coast a while. is there a way to check the valves before i start it? i was thinking that maybe, since some of the pullys were turned, even if i lined everything up....it could still be off. is this possible? like if it got turned and brought the piston up close, and even if i line it up it would still be off? is this possible? i still have a lot to learn....on my RC trucks there is just one piston and a carb. i guess with this it should be ok because they all move together and that’s not what moves the pistons right? does the pulley move anything inside?

thanks so much for the help. going to install the belt shortly...i just got the water pump off. a whole lot of anti freeze came out so i will refill that. the honda tech mentioned replacing a little bolt/clip/key? any idea what that is?

The clearances in the cylinders are so close that if a valve is open and the piston comes up, it will hit the valve and bend it. I would never say always but you have a 90% or better chanc of having at least one valve bent. You could just bite the bullet and remove the head and do a valve job. At 150K, it might need one anyway. I cannot express my concern any more strongly that installing a timing belt is something you do not want to do without a knowledgable person coaching you. An improperly installed belt could cause all your work to go down the drain and you could redamage what you just fixed. .

well i have my fiance's dad helping me, he knows a lot and is a good prblem solver. i am hoping the valves are ok, but we will see. any idea what engine i should get if they aren't? i was told that i might as well get a new engine if i needed to pull the head.

well i will find out tomorrow afternoon. and thanks again for your help!

replaced the belt and water pump. it started, but it runs a little rough. not rough as in bent valves, but as in off time a little. i think it is off a groove. it hesitates a little when i give it throttle. im going to try to retime it. any other ideas?

i sure hope its not the valves! would it delay like that as a result of the bent valves or is this something more simple like just sliding the distributor? would only a valve cause it to hesitate when i give it throttle, or can the distributor (out of time with flywheel) cause this?

Done't change the timing on the distributor until you verify that the camshaft is in time with the flywheel. It was in time before you had the problem, so it isn't out of time now except as to the camshaft. When you ensure it is properly aligned, do a compression check. It will tell you if you have a valve problem.

well i lined the camshaft pulley up properly when i went through the timing belt procedure and i made sure the fly wheel was lined up with it...and the way that i found all of this out was: when u said to check the camshaft, i didn't know where it was so i took off the distributor and saw the end of it. now i was wondering if it just has to do with the distributor being off a little. (new to all of this and i am not sure if just taking it off and putting it on would be enough to throw it off time). i remember that i set the camshaft pulley with the distributor off. i am assuming this is possible because i noticed how there are slide mounts so it can twist. is this how i would time it?

when i turned the camshaft pulley it should have turned the whole camshaft right?

The camshift aligning marks are on the belt end of the camshaft on the pulley. The marks include an arrow with the word up and two scratch marks on the pulley. With the up word at the top of the pulley. the two scratch marks must be horizontal and in line with the surface of the head. The flywheel white mark must must be aligned with the pointer.If all the above is true the camshaft is properly aligned with the crankshaft.

The pulley and camshaft all turn as one piece. The distributor also turns as the camshaft turns. It has got to be doing that or the engine won't run. Distri butor timing is actually electronic within its limits.

The distributor is used to fine-adjust the spark timing. Take a look at the distributor mounting area. The bolt holes are actually slotted so you can rotate the distributor to adjust the timing. You can loosen the bolts (just loose enough so you can turn the distributor) and turn it, you will notice the engine acts differently. A timing gun is normally used to set the correct timing. But my experience is, just turn the distributor back and forth and find the position the engine runs the most smooth, that's always the correct timing. Good luck.

ok...i went back and moved the front balancer belt pully over a notch and the rough idle went away! i still have a bad hesitation though and i have tried adjusting the distibutor. i noticed that the exhaust in back sounds weird like a "boggy put put"

Do a compression check

did you get that new distributer from honda?

no it was the timing belt. plus the previous owner already had it recalled.

ok guys...so i got a compression tester and couldn't get a reading even though i followed the instructions properly. turns out the tester came busted NIB. i know this because i swapped it for a better one and i got readings...

ALL CYLINDERS were 190 +/- like say 3 or so. Is this good? What does this mean. Are my valves ok? I am getting a gas smell out of my exhaust. And when i pulled one of my plugs off while it was running a couple days ago it didn't change the way the motor was running. Any ideas that can help me where I am at now?

Thanks for all the help guys...I SO want to be able to drive my car! I am scared to drive it as it is now.

Sounds like a dead sparkplug or a dead wire. When was the last time either got replaced? (You might have said this but wasn't sure, sure I figured I'd just ask again)

Also, it wouldn't hurt to make sure your injectors are firing too... Just either take a stethoscope or a long handled screw driver up to the injectors, and listen for very distinct clicking... If the clicking is dull, or none at all, your injectors are either clogged, or the wiring for them is bad... A good way to check to make sure they are getting power and are firing would be to get a noid light... But, do the screw driver test first, and make sure everything sounds good.

GOT IT!!!! Everyone laugh with me...i had a plug wire swapped with another! Now it purrs nice, but when I went to put it in gear for the first time it was hard to so I slid it in reverse and then it went forward easily. I only pulled it forward about 10 feet in my driveway and noticed when I got out and it was running that there was a noise coming from where the timing belt is located. The thought of having to take it all apart again is kind of a bummer, but anything is better than bad valves so I am thankful.

Just thought this might have something to do with the rough pull into first before I reversed it. Any ideas? Otherwise I guess I will take it apart again and make sure the belt is tight and so on...even though I triple checked it.

I am excited that this project is almost complete. I have learned a lot since I started and am excited to be on the road again.

Thanks,
Chris

noise is SO faint. i can barely hear it. it is hard to hear over the engine i bet it is just me. i am just being very cautious because i don't want this to happen again.

its on the road and running great now, thanks for all the help. i will just keep a careful ear on the timing belt from now on. i think the timing is JUST BARELY OFF, but its still running smooth. just every so often while idling it will BARELY idle a tad lower for a plit second and then go back up.