Too early for GT500 vs '07 Skyline GTR?


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ghostx
07-13-2005, 11:05 PM
I read an article about the next Skyline GTR. It's expected to make your pockets about $70,000 dollars lighter, but it only packs around 450 horses. Can anyone confirm this? If this is true? How would it stand, on paper and the road, against a Shelby GT500? Or is it way too early to compare potential value and performance?

illegal_eagle187
07-13-2005, 11:21 PM
yeah i really need to lighten my wallet $70,000 dollars...too early to compare

BlackGT2000
07-13-2005, 11:23 PM
A little early to compare but just the price makes me go with the Gt500.

kman10587
07-14-2005, 04:30 AM
I don't give two shits about horsepower, and the GT500 designers have already stated that handling was an afterthought with the GT500. Their tire and suspension setup is designed to allow the car to launch better. For example, they have 30 mm wider rubber on the rear, which keeps the rear tires from going up in smoke, but it doesn't help the car's tendency to understeer.

fairladyz_gt-r
07-14-2005, 05:24 AM
ur comparing a car that took 6~7 years to develope aganist a car that was base on something made to be cheap and fast for its price tag.

Ur comparing a car that was ment to be extreamly ahead of its time, against and ordenary sport car.

Ur comparing Nissan's flagship performance car (as Kman put it) against something down the line for ford...

kman10587
07-14-2005, 05:27 AM
It's not like the GT500 isn't every bit as legendary as the GT-R is, and it's also Ford's flagship performance car (since the GT counts as a supercar, IMO). However, it's just designed to do something that I don't much care to do...

fairladyz_gt-r
07-14-2005, 05:41 AM
but i don't believe ford set up a maintanace garage next to the nurburgring just to develope the GT500.

BlackGT2000
07-14-2005, 02:31 PM
I can't really speculate anything about either of these cars but give the GT500 a little more credit. The car is built on a whole new chassis and has a motor from a supercar. The suspension is designed to handle well. It has the same rear suspension setup that gave ford the win in the Grand Am against porshe and BMW. The car is a real performer not just a half thought out mustang with a bigger engine dropped under the hood.

z5ctz
07-14-2005, 02:50 PM
i agree it should be given some more credit , it will be tasty

kman10587
07-14-2005, 05:01 PM
Oh yeah, I don't mean to say the GT500 is a bad car at all. If drag racing and hot rodding is your thing, then it's the best car to come from an American company in a long time. The handling isn't necessarily bad, either. I'm just saying that there are many better-handling vehicles for less money. Also, with 475 horsepower, performance-tuned engine and a 4000-lb curb weight, the gas mileage is going to be absolutely abyssmal. C&D estimated 13/21 when they tested it, and I don't doubt it. I know that performance cars are not supposed to get great gas mileage, but I think that at least 20 mpg combined is reasonable.

k3smostwanted
07-14-2005, 07:52 PM
Oh yeah, I don't mean to say the GT500 is a bad car at all. If drag racing and hot rodding is your thing, then it's the best car to come from an American company in a long time. The handling isn't necessarily bad, either. I'm just saying that there are many better-handling vehicles for less money. Also, with 475 horsepower, performance-tuned engine and a 4000-lb curb weight, the gas mileage is going to be absolutely abyssmal. C&D estimated 13/21 when they tested it, and I don't doubt it. I know that performance cars are not supposed to get great gas mileage, but I think that at least 20 mpg combined is reasonable.

im sorry but i dont know anything about the new GT500...but i think i just understood that it is going to have 475hp and 4000 curb weight.

and your saying that the GTR "ONLY" packs 450hp??? you act as if the GT500 is on top of 600hp+. your talking 25hp and i doubt the GTR is gonna weigh more than 3500lbs. this makes the power to weight better than the GT500.

combined with the "no power robbing AWD system" of the new GTR. yes thats right, an AWD car that doesnt suffer from AWD powertrain loss. the front wheels are powered by electric motors, obviously at a very high performance level. this minimizes weight and powertrain loss of a standard AWD system but still all the performance benefits. the Nissan Cube and a few others already ahve this electronic system in production but are only offered to Japan.

from looking at numbers that we already know...it looks like for $70k...it doesnt get much better. but we will have to wait to see what nissan actually does.

9eleventb0
07-14-2005, 08:01 PM
I would go with the GT-R (at least for now)....

Although this is all speculation, I think the extensive testing that nissan has been doing and the new technologies that will be implemented in the car are going to make it an awesome performer overall, track and street. Also, there's the advantage of AWD in adverse weather, and I believe that it is supposed to be a 4 seater as well. Though the cobra will undoubtedly be the acceleration bang for buck, i highly doubt it'll be as fun to track as the GT-R. Plus, if a highly tuned R35 GT-R sounds anywhere near as good as an R34.......drooooooool......

Jimster
07-14-2005, 09:12 PM
The next GTR is going to have to be an absolute corker to change my opinion about Skylines.


At the moment I'll take the Mustang, given that little is actually known about the 2007 GTR.

drunken monkey
07-14-2005, 10:36 PM
and any nissan costing $70,000 is going to have to pass the 911 test first.....

k3smostwanted
07-15-2005, 01:14 AM
and any nissan costing $70,000 is going to have to pass the 911 test first.....

well that wont be needed beings it has been registered for 2007 under the Infiniti badge.

and i agree with Jimster and Drunken Monkey...the GTR better be something special because i never cared for the skylines really except for their performance capabilities and for $70k it better be something really special, which im sure it will be...but it better be unbelievable.

but i know right now, i would never take any mustang over it unless the GTR doesnt come to america then i guess i would be forced to. no disrespect to the mustang...i just have never liked them.

DinanM3_S2
07-15-2005, 02:07 AM
At $70,000, you can keep your Nissan/Infiniti, I'll take a Porsche 997 thank you very much.

kman10587
07-15-2005, 04:25 AM
I loved the R32 GT-R, but I think that the GT-R went downhill with the R33 and R34. They were just too big and too heavy for my tastes. Hopefully this new GT-R can keep its curb weight under 3500 lbs. I speculate that it's going to get embarrassed pretty badly by the new Z06, but we'll have to wait until we have more info on it.

fairladyz_gt-r
07-15-2005, 05:54 AM
The Z06 is 500hp (if i remeber correctly) i bet it will be lighting fast, but i think given GT-R's gizmodo maybe it be able to slice the Z06, and as for the 997 comment i think that's quite ignorent, alot of ppl think that because is Japanese it will never be better then German, while they never even driven a Japanese sport car before. The R34 Skyline GT-R can do a mid 7min lap around the Nurburgring, i highly doubt a normal 997 will even be able to crack 8min barrier.

k3smostwanted
07-15-2005, 04:51 PM
At $70,000, you can keep your Nissan/Infiniti, I'll take a Porsche 997 thank you very much.

well if thats not narrow-minded, i dont know what is...:rolleyes:

we havent seen or do we have any confirmed speculations about the car and already people are saying they would rather have this car because of the brand. im completely dumbfounded at the ignorance of people as a whole...

anyways, im not going to say if anything will outhandle or if it will even be worth talking about. the only confirmation we know is that it will be made...

we dont know anything about the car...it could turn into a $200k exotic for all we know. you assume that the Z06 will destroy it in the handling department on what basis??? we know absolutely nothing about the suspension, the weight, the motor, the aerodynamics, the...anything. hell it could get outhandled by $12k economy car for all we know if you want to just have an opinion for no apparent reason.

im not defending it because im a 'nissan' guy, like most of you assume...but more or less because, your statements have no meaning beings we know absolutely nothing about the car.

ill tell you one thing...nissan is not a fool. they know what their competition will be and it will compete. if the Z06 is a $70k and car manufacturers know that if they are going to build a car for the same purpose as the Z06 and at the same price it better perform as well or better than one or else they will lose money...it would be asinine to think any different.

ghostx
07-15-2005, 05:20 PM
For some strange reason, I don't think the GTR will be worth the 70k price tag. This is disappointing to me because I'd love to own it. But at 70k, I'd have to settle for the GT500.

Who knows, get 'em on the track together and you may not be able to tell that there is a $30,000 difference between the two.

drunken monkey
07-15-2005, 05:36 PM
whoa.... i didn't mention the 911 because it's german and 'better'.
i mentioned it because like it or not, it is the benchmark car in that price range (or it that going to go to the new cayman s?).
like it or not, in the real world, where buying a car is more than just about the specs, would you buy a car that would retain more than 50% of its price over three years or the car that wouldn't?

or is that only something that people like me think about....

k3smostwanted
07-15-2005, 05:37 PM
For some strange reason, I don't think the GTR will be worth the 70k price tag. This is disappointing to me because I'd love to own it. But at 70k, I'd have to settle for the GT500.

Who knows, get 'em on the track together and you may not be able to tell that there is a $30,000 difference between the two.

you guys act like this $70k price tag is set in stone...there has been no confirmation buy anyone from nissan that says how much it is going to cost. it started at $50k and then there were rumors of it being $120k. sounds like someone just picked a medium and went with it...

anyways, maybe your right...but you sure as hell cant tell now. reguardless it will be worth the price tag. im sure it will be yet another japanese car way ahead of its time with new inventions, gizmos, and technology that Ford and GM would only hope to have at their disposal 10 years from now.

what im trying to say is that whether the performance is on par with the GT500 for the price tag or not...it will be a much more technological advanced which means more money. if you want a car that took many years of research, development, and testing...then your going to have to pay some money. if you want a bigger motor thrown in a well-designed car get the GT500.

but like i keep repeating...maybe the GTR will cost $40k also and it will compete with the GT500. then whats going to be the better bang for buck??? this comparison is ridiculous for the simple fact that your comparing a car that hasnt even had a concept built let alone on its way to production lines. when we KNOW something about the car instead of rumors and gossip then we could possibly make a comparison out of this. but as of right now...your choosing between 2 brands, not 2 cars.

drunken monkey
07-15-2005, 05:50 PM
the funny thing is, at the risk of sounding more than a little cynical, i don't think that ford are going to do anything drastically new to a mustang beyond a bigger engine (and reworked suspension to cope), anytime soon and hence it's pretty safe to compare mustangs up to the year 2015.......

9eleventb0
07-15-2005, 06:41 PM
The R34 Skyline GT-R can do a mid 7min lap around the Nurburgring, i highly doubt a normal 997 will even be able to crack 8min barrier.

I've never heard of a stock R34 pulling a mid 7 minute lap, though I think some heavily modified ones have reached that mark. Also, the 997S has already achieved a sub 8 minute lap, though I'm not sure if the base 997 has or not.

I don't know if you guys know or not, but there was an actual interview with Nissan's senior VP regarding the R35 GT-R. Obviously he hasn't divulged all the specs and what not, but he's given some important details nevertheless. And seeing as how its coming from a Nissan official, I'd say the info is pretty reliable. Take a look:

http://urbanracer.com/articles/anmviewer.asp?a=1437

k3smostwanted
07-15-2005, 06:59 PM
whoa.... i didn't mention the 911 because it's german and 'better'.
i mentioned it because like it or not, it is the benchmark car in that price range (or it that going to go to the new cayman s?).
like it or not, in the real world, where buying a car is more than just about the specs, would you buy a car that would retain more than 50% of its price over three years or the car that wouldn't?

or is that only something that people like me think about....

infiniti holds its value very well...as does nissan if you havent kept track lately, nissan is making some of the best selling cars out right now.

i personally would buy the car that is best all around...and as of right now i dont know which car is going to be the best overall. if it were nme i would sacrifice its value holding abilities if it is a better car in every other category. and like i keep saying we have no idea what the GTR is going to do, what it is...

how do you know the GTR will not take the place of the 991 as the benchmark car in that price range...you dont. because when we are talking the future...no one ever knows.

it seems that everyone knows exactly what this car is about...so someone enlighten me. :nono:


Take a look:

http://urbanracer.com/articles/anmviewer.asp?a=1437

so now we have a credible person stating that it will probably be under 500hp, AWD, and between $60k-$100k.

9eleventb0
07-15-2005, 07:39 PM
so now we have a credible person stating that it will be under 500hp, AWD, and between $60k-$100k.

Well, some people were questioning whether the car might even compete directly with the GT500 in the $40-50K range. But with a confirmation of a $60-100K pricetag and a level of performance significantly greater than the R34, its pretty safe to say that it'll be an M5 competitor at the very least, if not a Z06 and 997TT competitor. Plus there were a couple of other important points in the article, including that the car will have key features based on the GT-R design heritage and that it will look nothing like the G35 or 350Z.

TatII
07-15-2005, 07:45 PM
last year they said that hte V35 GTR is using the 996 turbo as the benchmark. so it should atleast run a 12.2 in the 1/4 and should atleast out handle it. the older R34 already handles on par with the 996 turbo and stops on par also.

Muscletang
07-15-2005, 10:32 PM
I'll agree that it's to early to tell with both but I'll say this. I think the Skyline will probably outhandle the Cobra but straight line it'll be a dog fight. I hear the 1/4 mile will be pretty low. Also, remember how easy '03 Cobras were to get horsepower? Now, think of that same potential with the GT-40s engine. I personally think the Cobra will have a much better response in the aftermarket.

drunken monkey
07-15-2005, 10:36 PM
i think there's a big confusion about cars and ring time.
it was the R33 that made the claim of being the first production car to go below 8 minutes in standard form. it has however, been rumoured that the car was running on very non-standard tyres......

8 minutes is actually hard to do and many fast cars have failed, lambos and ferraris included that have much more bhp than the R33 does.

kman10587
07-15-2005, 10:56 PM
I'm sorry k3, and you're right, comparing the two cars at this point is completely pointless. I guess the point I was trying to make is that the new Corvette Z06 is among the greatest performance values of all time, and if anyone were to beat its bang for buck, especially a car made by a Japanese company, I'd be extremely surprised. The Infiniti GT-R may indeed run with the Corvette Z06, but if it does, I'd expect it to cost about a hundred grand. Not because Nissan is less experienced at building fast cars than Chevy, but simply because the Japanese put more time and money into finely engineering their cars, so their performance comes at a higher price.

k3smostwanted
07-15-2005, 11:01 PM
I'll agree that it's to early to tell with both but I'll say this. I think the Skyline will probably outhandle the Cobra but straight line it'll be a dog fight. I hear the 1/4 mile will be pretty low. Also, remember how easy '03 Cobras were to get horsepower? Now, think of that same potential with the GT-40s engine. I personally think the Cobra will have a much better response in the aftermarket.

umm...i doubt that the GTR will be any harder to mod if they use the most talked about engine rght now, a totally redesigned VQ32DETT. we all know that turbocharged, in general, are alot easier to source power out of than Naturally Aspirated. and we all know that when building turboed cars the manufacturer usually builds them alot stronger than need be. every turbocharged engine nissan has assembled can make incredibly big power numbers with little modification.

-SR20DET can handle 400whp+ on stock internals
-RB series can handle anywhere from 450-600whp on stock internals ranging from the RB20 to the 26.
-VG30DETT can handle 500whp on stock internals
-etc

i doubt the Cobra will have a much better response to aftermarket upgrades if nissan uses this particular engine. i would say they would be on par with each other when it comes to aftermarket response. but i doubt many people will be modifying either car as the price is rather high on either car for the tuner crowd.

k3smostwanted
07-15-2005, 11:19 PM
I'm sorry k3, and you're right, comparing the two cars at this point is completely pointless. I guess the point I was trying to make is that the new Corvette Z06 is among the greatest performance values of all time, and if anyone were to beat its bang for buck, especially a car made by a Japanese company, I'd be extremely surprised. The Infiniti GT-R may indeed run with the Corvette Z06, but if it does, I'd expect it to cost about a hundred grand. Not because Nissan is less experienced at building fast cars than Chevy, but simply because the Japanese put more time and money into finely engineering their cars, so their performance comes at a higher price.

i agree....but it can be done. but if you look at it in another way its a whole different ball game.

you usually get alot better value when you buy a Japanese car. the vettes performance shouldnt be that hard to match with the GTR's rumored engine output. i bet it will be able to be on par if not beat the vette in handling...i think it would be the 1/4 mile that the GTR would be a little slower in.

a well refined AWD system will allow the GTR to have so much more grip...

i think someone just stated that the R33 was the a car among many other higher end cars that would run that particular course in under 8 seconds which was better than laborghinis and such, with the benefit of better tires. the new GTR will without a doubt do everything phenominally better than the R33. just a thought...

i personally dont see any problem with the GTR keeping pace with the Z06 if not beating it in handling with the benefit of a good AWD system working on its side.

DinanM3_S2
07-16-2005, 01:04 AM
Big question for all you GT-R fans, since the upcoming car will be under the Infiniti name in the US, will they try and keep at the level of sportiness of the previous Nissan Skyline GT-Rs, or will they try to make it a sports coupe with a luxury component much like the BMW M3?

I ask this because cars like the GT500 and the Z06 Vettes are pure sports cars, with few luxuries, making them very different cars from a luxury/sports coupe. A more luxury focused GT-R might not be the same kind of car that the R32, R33, and R34 were. Just a thought.

A heavier, more luxurious GT-R would not be very good competition for the lighter and stronger Z06 Vette.

I was also wondering just how the GT-Rs AWD system affects the car's reliability. I recall reading about how terrible the previous generation skyline GT-Rs were in reliability, although I may be mistaken.

O, and I'd still take a 997 over the Skyline. A smooth N/A RWD car just appeals to me more then a Turbo AWD car. Its not an ignorant comment, its just my personal preference.

k3smostwanted
07-16-2005, 01:29 AM
Big question for all you GT-R fans, since the upcoming car will be under the Infiniti name in the US, will they try and keep at the level of sportiness of the previous Nissan Skyline GT-Rs, or will they try to make it a sports coupe with a luxury component much like the BMW M3?

im not a GTR fan but i will give my response anyways...

well thats our problem...we dont know. nobody knows for sure...i cant imagine the interior would be any less luxurious than a 350Z or G35 in that aspect. but i cant imagine it beings a full out luxurious interior. Nissan/Infiniti is also doing many things to keep the weight of the car similar to that of the current 350Z but with ALOT more power. the basic reason why nissan/infiniti decided to introduce the new GTR (it will not carry the skyline name any longer) as an Infiniti is because the simple fact that it is going to be much harder for the Biased American Economy to pay good money for a Nissan. most of the population has no idea that Nissan is directly related with Infiniti. just ignorance i suppose...


I ask this because cars like the GT500 and the Z06 Vettes are pure sports cars, with few luxuries, making them very different cars from a luxury/sports coupe. A more luxury focused GT-R might not be the same kind of car that the R32, R33, and R34 were. Just a thought.

i think if it carries the name (GTR) of the flagship of Nissan Racing ...im sure it will perform like a pure sports car no matter what it is. and the GT500 is far from a pure sports car...more of Ford going back to the roots of a pure muscle car.


A heavier, more luxurious GT-R would not be very good competition for the lighter and stronger Z06 Vette.
i think that would be an under-statement. once again we have no idea about the weight of the GTR, but im sure it will be far from a luxury car but i bet it will have a very classy, BMW M-series like interior but it guarantee it will not ride like a 745Li.


I was also wondering just how the GT-Rs AWD system affects the car's reliability. I recall reading about how terrible the previous generation skyline GT-Rs were in reliability, although I may be mistaken.

this would be irrelevant though i have never heard anything about this. reguardless, nissan/infiniti is using a totally new electronic AWD system. it will be a RWD car with Electic motors that will power the front wheels through a very well calculated and advanced computer sytem that will monitor turning angles, slippage, accelerator level, etc. it will be the most technological advanced system on the market. it is currently going through several stages of testing on the Nissan Cube and other cars being offered to Japan to work out all the bugs and gliches before the GTR hits assembly lines...


O, and I'd still take a 997 over the Skyline. A smooth N/A RWD car just appeals to me more then a Turbo AWD car. Its not an ignorant comment, its just my personal preference.
i still dont know how you could say that and you know absolutely nothing about the car...its your opinion but it is obviously quite questionable and biased. how do you knows its going to be turboed???
if i were to have the money or will to buy either of these cars...i would atleast wait until we know something about the GTR to choose which one would be my choice. but then again...im the type of person who feels that if Kia makes a better car than Ferrari, i would take the Kia because it is a better car rather than just buying the ferrari because of its heritage or name. i buy cars based on the car itself...not the name.

broddie50
07-16-2005, 02:45 AM
Total perforamnce wise, I hope the newest incarnation of the Skyline beats the GT 500. For thirty thousand more on the bottom line, it should. If the new Cobra takes to modification as well as the 03+ snakes do, then don't even try to line up and rev... Game over...

TatII
07-16-2005, 03:28 AM
I was also wondering just how the GT-Rs AWD system affects the car's reliability. I recall reading about how terrible the previous generation skyline GT-Rs were in reliability, although I may be mistaken.



i have no idea where you heard that rumor because its totally false. the tranny on the GT-R along with stock clutch is unbreakable. stock tranny GT-Rs have lasted with over 700whp. the stock clutch could handle repeated 8000rpm clutch drops without going up in smoke. the tranny can take extreme shock, and the engine is almost as bulletproof as the supra TT engine. the only trannys that had problems is the later model R33's which has a weak third gear. and they didn't start finding this problems 8 years later. and the only cars that exhibits this problem is the monster hp GT-R's. the R32 and the R34 trannys were all unbreakable.

in fact i can even bet money that the GTR tranny can handle waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more stress then your precious BMW or porsche tranny's can.

i do admit i'm questioning how the car would be once they added all the luxury crap to it since its going to be labeled as an infiniti. but only time will tell. its honestly too early to compare. but please don't spread false info about the previous GTR's toughness. this car is extremely over engineered and is basically a detuned 500hp car from the factory.

and to brodie50, if this new GTR is anything like the older ones, i'm sure it will take mods as well as a cobra. RazorGTR ( a moderator here ) has a R32 with only a intake, homemade boost controller, full exhuast and hes running 12.0 flat and trapping almost 120mph. his third gear takes him to 120mph.

Jimster
07-16-2005, 06:28 AM
in fact i can even bet money that the GTR tranny can handle waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more stress then your precious BMW or porsche tranny's can.



I'd hope so too, because my precious BMW's are far easier to fix than GTR's. :)

fairladyz_gt-r
07-16-2005, 08:13 AM
I'd hope so too, because my precious BMW's are far easier to fix than GTR's. :)

Tell that to the lady next to the street when their 318i is poping out smoke due to heavy traffic jam. and for the next month or so she have to take the public transportation.

On the other hand, Nissan car even the JDM never get stuck, and even if they went into the service centre, that evening the owner can take his lovely car home.

(by the way this is very normal in Thailand to see BMW, Mercedes and other European car over heat simply because the were build with the highist standar and they never brake :grinno: )

VQuick
07-16-2005, 09:14 AM
Big question for all you GT-R fans, since the upcoming car will be under the Infiniti name in the US, will they try and keep at the level of sportiness of the previous Nissan Skyline GT-Rs, or will they try to make it a sports coupe with a luxury component much like the BMW M3?
According to Hiroshi Tamura, the product planner for the R34 GT-R and the upcoming model, the new car will be a huge improvement. In an interview with car, he talked about Porsche's step from the 993 to the 996 and Ferrari's jump from the 355 to the 360, and said 'we must make an even bigger leap.' It should be world class in terms of performance.

Just as an FYI, apparently the GT-R and Lexus LF-A test mules are already faster than Porsche's 997 Turbo mule on the Nurburgring. The two Japanese cars have become real rivals, and I heard the drivers almost killed each other going into one corner because neither would yield. :lol:

I ask this because cars like the GT500 and the Z06 Vettes are pure sports cars, with few luxuries, making them very different cars from a luxury/sports coupe. A more luxury focused GT-R might not be the same kind of car that the R32, R33, and R34 were. Just a thought.

A heavier, more luxurious GT-R would not be very good competition for the lighter and stronger Z06 Vette.
Well, hopefully the GT-R won't be too luxury focused. One thing that gives us hope in this regard is that there will be a bigger luxury coupe from Infiniti shortly after the GT-R's release. A coupe version of the M45 will be available, which can afford to be more luxury oriented and perhaps compete with the BMW 6-series, upcoming Audi A6 coupe, and lower end MB SLs and CLs. This M45 coupe can take care of the luxury end, and let the GT-R be more hardcore.

With the best rumored specs thus far, the GT-R should beat the next M3(including the CSL), could possibly match the Ferrari 430, and come close to the C6 Z06. The GT-R should be shorter than a G35 Coupe, longer than a 350Z, but much wider than both. With some aluminum in the chassis, and aluminum and carbon fiber body panels, combined with the lighter e4wd system, the rumored weight of 3064lbs could be a reality. With a speculated 480hp, the GT-R would have a power to weight better than the F430, but not quite as good as the C6 Z06.


The GT500 should be a good bit cheaper than the GT-R, but they are aimed at slightly different audiences and have great performance in different ways. I think the GT-R(with the above specs) would be faster, but the Mustang will be a bargain in comparison.

Of course, Ford could always make a more hardcore GT350 with a bit more power(500?), less weight, and better handling via IRS. :iceslolan

Jimster
07-16-2005, 11:17 AM
Tell that to the lady next to the street when their 318i is poping out smoke due to heavy traffic jam. and for the next month or so she have to take the public transportation.

On the other hand, Nissan car even the JDM never get stuck, and even if they went into the service centre, that evening the owner can take his lovely car home.

(by the way this is very normal in Thailand to see BMW, Mercedes and other European car over heat simply because the were build with the highist standar and they never brake :grinno: )
From what I can understand from that, sounds like your neighbour needs to find a new garage, because anyone that takes a month to fix a 318i needs a swift kick in the ass. Anyway back to what I was saying, I've never worked on GTR's and never would (But I've talked to plenty who have) hence I can safely say that I'll stick to my BMW, at least I know that when something goes wrong I can have it back on the road at the end of the weekend, I don't have to worry about AWD or turbos or 4WS or a computerised display of how fast I'm cornering or any other surplus crap. It's quite comforting really.


For what it's worth I've seen more broken down Nissans holding up a lane of traffic than pretty much every maker except the cars from British Leyland and Mitsubishi. Bluebirds were the worst offenders, followed by Cefiro's (This was mainly back a few years ago before I moved to Italy)

9eleventb0
07-16-2005, 12:03 PM
Although current bmw's are certainly not unreliable, I'm pretty sure that the GT-R will be engineered to be more reliable. After all, nissan/infiniti does have the reputation for making some of the more reliable cars, and since nissan has been testing and developing this car for such a long time, I'm sure they'll engineer it to be quite reliable.

That said, I don't know how easily the car will respond to major mods though. I'm sure that to an extent the car will surely be modifiable, as modification was certiainly a highlight of previous GT-Rs. But since the R35 won't be using the mighty straight 6 from previous generations, I'm not sure if the engine is going to be able to handle some of the massive power outputs that the the older skylines were putting out.

fairladyz_gt-r
07-16-2005, 12:45 PM
From what I can understand from that, sounds like your neighbour needs to find a new garage, because anyone that takes a month to fix a 318i needs a swift kick in the ass. Anyway back to what I was saying, I've never worked on GTR's and never would (But I've talked to plenty who have) hence I can safely say that I'll stick to my BMW, at least I know that when something goes wrong I can have it back on the road at the end of the weekend, I don't have to worry about AWD or turbos or 4WS or a computerised display of how fast I'm cornering or any other surplus crap. It's quite comforting really.


For what it's worth I've seen more broken down Nissans holding up a lane of traffic than pretty much every maker except the cars from British Leyland and Mitsubishi. Bluebirds were the worst offenders, followed by Cefiro's (This was mainly back a few years ago before I moved to Italy)

Yea u should, the offical importer of BMW need a good kick in the ass. oh and ppl here don't go to anything but offical BMW service centre. and as for the bluebirds and cefiro, i don't what ur talking about but i have both the A32 and the A33 they run perfect (these car goes 50+km per day) we never having broken before. the only time that the A32 went in for a un-schudle service was when my cousin crash.

Hey, i never knew they were plenty of Skyline GT-R R34 in italy too :screwy:

The only country that get them offically in Europe is The U.K.

Jaguar D-Type
07-16-2005, 12:58 PM
I don't give two shits about horsepower, and the GT500 designers have already stated that handling was an afterthought with the GT500. Their tire and suspension setup is designed to allow the car to launch better. For example, they have 30 mm wider rubber on the rear, which keeps the rear tires from going up in smoke, but it doesn't help the car's tendency to understeer.

Where did they state that?

The following is from Motor Trend May 2005 pages 54, 55, and 56:

"Hau Tai-Tang, the 2005 Mustang's chief program engineer, was handed the reins at SVT last fall."

"Visceral feedback from all driver inputs will be greatly increased; differentiated, yet well harmonized."

"We won't hesitate to have you do a driving comparison against IRS-suspended competitors."

There might be lighter, high-performance versions of the new Mustang coming.

ghostx
07-16-2005, 01:24 PM
The GT500 should be a good bit cheaper than the GT-R, but they are aimed at slightly different audiences and have great performance in different ways. I think the GT-R(with the above specs) would be faster, but the Mustang will be a bargain in comparison.

Of course, Ford could always make a more hardcore GT350 with a bit more power(500?), less weight, and better handling via IRS. :iceslolan

Well, of course Ford cooooouuuuld do that, but I'd rather see a new Mustang with a n/a 5.0L or 5.4L. Lighter, packing an IRS, and right around 30-35k.

BlackGT2000
07-16-2005, 01:34 PM
Well, of course Ford cooooouuuuld do that, but I'd rather see a new Mustang with a n/a 5.0L or 5.4L. Lighter, packing an IRS, and right around 30-35k.

I would like to see something like the cammer motor in another mustang. A 5.0 DOHC and leave the cobras rear suspension in it. Its proven to work very well and would leave the cost down in the 30-35 range. I don't support the idea of IRS in the new mustang because it would just be a retrofit like the last cobras were. The only real benefit from that was ride quality and weight distribution. The new cobras rear is much better and will outhandle the last cobra.

kman10587
07-16-2005, 02:04 PM
I was actually getting my info from Car and Driver's article, not Motor Trend's.

Big power isn't much good unless it gets to the ground without excessive wheelspin, which is why the production GT500 will have a lot more rear tire than the New York show car, which hunkered over a set of 19-inch wheels wearing 255/45 tires. The initial production run of GT500s will roll on 9.5-by-18-inch wheels with sticky Goodyear Eagle F1 Supercar tires—255/45 front, 285/40 rear.

"We just couldn't get the 255s to hook up," says O'Connell. "Almost every run was going up in smoke."

The test mule's responses were colored by mild understeer—not too surprising, given the weight distribution and big disparity between the front and rear contact patches. And not unwelcome, since it makes the car's responses predictable. Which is just what the SVT guys want.

"What we want is a little bit of steady-state understeer," says Tom Chapman, SVT's vehicle dynamics supervisor. "We don't want to overdo it on agility, but we still want it to be fun to drive. Besides, we figure the driver can correct for understeer with his right foot any time he wants."

There you have the chief vehicle engineer admitting that agility is not the vehicle's number one priority. They are designed the handling to be acceptable given the car's power, but they're not designing it to be outstanding by any means. If you want outstanding handling for that kind of money, you can buy an Evo, STi, or 350Z. The GT500 is made with one thing distinctly in mind: power.

Jaguar D-Type
07-16-2005, 02:28 PM
At $70,000, you can keep your Nissan/Infiniti, I'll take a Porsche 997 thank you very much.

Nice car, but watch out for RMS.

RMS (http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=379671)

Jaguar D-Type
07-16-2005, 02:32 PM
The Z06 is 500hp (if i remeber correctly) i bet it will be lighting fast, but i think given GT-R's gizmodo maybe it be able to slice the Z06, and as for the 997 comment i think that's quite ignorent, alot of ppl think that because is Japanese it will never be better then German, while they never even driven a Japanese sport car before. The R34 Skyline GT-R can do a mid 7min lap around the Nurburgring, i highly doubt a normal 997 will even be able to crack 8min barrier.

The new Corvette Z06 has 505 hp.

New Z06 (http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=420611)

Jaguar D-Type
07-16-2005, 02:36 PM
if you want a bigger motor thrown in a well-designed car get the GT500.

A more powerful engine is not the only thing the new GT500 has.

Jaguar D-Type
07-16-2005, 02:37 PM
the funny thing is, at the risk of sounding more than a little cynical, i don't think that ford are going to do anything drastically new to a mustang beyond a bigger engine (and reworked suspension to cope), anytime soon and hence it's pretty safe to compare mustangs up to the year 2015.......

Ford is developing a new 3.5 liter V-6.

Jaguar D-Type
07-16-2005, 02:44 PM
i doubt the Cobra will have a much better response to aftermarket upgrades if nissan uses this particular engine.

690 hp is available for 2003-2004 Mustang SVT Cobras (4.6 liter V-8) from factory performance parts. There is a huge aftermarket for Mustangs.

Jaguar D-Type
07-16-2005, 02:55 PM
I was actually getting my info from Car and Driver's article, not Motor Trend's.





There you have the chief vehicle engineer admitting that agility is not the vehicle's number one priority. They are designed the handling to be acceptable given the car's power, but they're not designing it to be outstanding by any means. If you want outstanding handling for that kind of money, you can buy an Evo, STi, or 350Z. The GT500 is made with one thing distinctly in mind: power.

They want safe understeer. The BMW M3 has some understeer for safe handling. Why not wait to drive the car before writing it off?

Anyways, the GT500 will be a GT car.

k3smostwanted
07-16-2005, 04:13 PM
That said, I don't know how easily the car will respond to major mods though. I'm sure that to an extent the car will surely be modifiable, as modification was certiainly a highlight of previous GT-Rs. But since the R35 won't be using the mighty straight 6 from previous generations, I'm not sure if the engine is going to be able to handle some of the massive power outputs that the the older skylines were putting out.

it will resond well to major mods if they do indeed use the highly talked about VQ32DETT. people refuse to understand that the RB series was dropped in favor of the VQ because the VQ is superior, not because nissan got up one morning and decided to make some changes. the VQ is a far superior and more up to date motor than the RB series so dont be surprised to see this motor easily modified well beyond what you would expect. if you have ever read...the hardest thing for 350Z/G35 tuners to oversome is fuel managment, not the engines capabilities. with the higher compression of the VQ35DE it can still hold enormous amount of boost for an otherwise internally stock motor. its rather impressing...

690 hp is available for 2003-2004 Mustang SVT Cobras (4.6 liter V-8) from factory performance parts. There is a huge aftermarket for Mustangs.

obviously you have never heard of Nismo or of the RB26DETT...it is just as easy to see big power gains as any mustang. look it up...

you obviously have never heard of combining posts either...:rolleyes:

supdawg79
07-16-2005, 04:45 PM
The new GT-R is going to outperform just about everything on the market when it makes it debut.

Jaguar D-Type
07-16-2005, 05:30 PM
obviously you have never heard of Nismo or of the RB26DETT...it is just as easy to see big power gains as any mustang. look it up...

you obviously have never heard of combining posts either...:rolleyes:

I've heard of Nismo, but the aftermarket for the Mustang in North America is bigger than the Skyline or the 350Z.

Who cares about combining posts?

VQuick
07-16-2005, 05:58 PM
Well, of course Ford cooooouuuuld do that, but I'd rather see a new Mustang with a n/a 5.0L or 5.4L. Lighter, packing an IRS, and right around 30-35k.

That's a good idea too. Such a car would help fill in the huge gap between the 300hp Mustang GT and the 450-475hp GT500.

However, I'm talking about a car that would be an even better performer than the GT500. With such a high weight and less power, the GT500 won't be able to keep up with the Z06. A lighter, better handling, and more powerful GT350 could turn the tide.

The GT350 would have less interior amenities than the GT500 and Mustang GT, but a bit more than the Mustang Cobra R. Handling and lower weight would be key. Even the Cobra R was 3589lbs, and the later supercharged Cobras were over 3600lbs. That might sound like a lot, but it's better than this 4000lbs some of you are talking about for the GT500. Maybe the weight of the older cars could be a goal for the GT350.

I didn't know it until recently, but the original GT500 was the 'softer' car, while the GT350 was the hardcore car. I figured the GT500 was faster just because of the bigger number, but the opposite was true. Instead of offering the Shelby GR-1, a GT350 might be easier for Ford to do.

k3smostwanted
07-16-2005, 06:28 PM
I've heard of Nismo, but the aftermarket for the Mustang in North America is bigger than the Skyline or the 350Z.

Who cares about combining posts?

:lol: that is irrelevant...the skyline isnt even offered to the US so i would hope the mustang aftermarket would be bigger. plus, we werent discussing whos aftermarket is bigger. we were discussion the capabilities of these motors and the power you can gain from simple modifications. bottom line: the previous skylines had a huge aftermarket and they were easy to mod just like the mustang. the mustang is no better and probably will not be any better but we cannot determine this yet so it is a lost caused to get your panties in a bunch about it.

just remember: if the VQ32DETT is built and placed in the GTR's engine bay...it will be a monster stock and it will take very well to modifications just like its predecessors.

also, do some searching on Nismo...it is huge and its not just the 350Z, it is all Nissan cars as a whole. Nismo takes Nissan's performance cars to new heights...check out the Nismo R34 GT-R Z-Tune.

BTW: im sure there are soem people that care about combining posts...instead of people havign to skip over several worthless posts, they can skip over 1.

A more powerful engine is not the only thing the new GT500 has.
It may as well...bottom line, it will not be anywhere close to the cars mentioned about in this thread. If you want an all around performance car, Ford offeres the GT. Otherwise Ford dedicates most of their products for straight line performance ebcause this is what the American Economy thrives upon.

i remember ford trying to offer an IRS on the 05 mustang but they heard nothing but complaints from the mustang community about them dropping the obselete solid axle. a company builds cars to sell, so if the people want inferior technology, thats what they will get.

Jaguar D-Type
07-16-2005, 07:35 PM
Otherwise Ford dedicates most of their products for straight line performance ebcause this is what the American Economy thrives upon.

i remember ford trying to offer an IRS on the 05 mustang but they heard nothing but complaints from the mustang community about them dropping the obselete solid axle. a company builds cars to sell, so if the people want inferior technology, thats what they will get.

So the Ford Falcon is dedicated only for straight line performance?

Ford Falcon (http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=379989)

The new Mustang has won four races in Grand-Am Cup.

http://www.grandamerican.com/

http://www.motorsport.com/photos/grandcup/2005/dt/grandcup-2005-dt-jt-0108.jpg

http://grand-am.com/CONTENT/Photos/Gallery/2005/05CALcupS800-04.jpg

kman10587
07-17-2005, 04:03 PM
It may as well...bottom line, it will not be anywhere close to the cars mentioned about in this thread. If you want an all around performance car, Ford offeres the GT. Otherwise Ford dedicates most of their products for straight line performance ebcause this is what the American Economy thrives upon.

The way you worded makes it sound like the Mustang GT has poor handling, which isn't true by any stretch of the imagination. What is true, though, is that the Mustang, along with most other pony cars, have always been viewed primarily as cheap and powerful drag racers. Sure, the handling on some of them happens to be quite good (I'm always sticking up for the Camaro and Firebird, for example), but it's still not what the car is meant for in the eye of the general public. Like k3 said, a company builds cars to sell, and since the Mustang has always thrived due to its low price and high torque, that's what people expect out of it.

k3smostwanted
07-17-2005, 04:51 PM
So the Ford Falcon is dedicated only for straight line performance?

Ford Falcon (http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=379989)

The new Mustang has won four races in Grand-Am Cup.

http://www.grandamerican.com/


if you re-read my post...i said that "the american economy thrives upon". which would elead one to assume i was talking about Ford America...not any other country. i think it was you that tried to exclude the Japanese market when talking about the Skyline and now you include the Austrailian market when talking about Ford. i will repeat, Ford, just like any other car manufacturer, builds cars to suit the public...the European Ford industry has a whole different line of cars that offer much much better all around performance cars than does the American market.

i never said that the mustang was a bad handling car...i simply said, it will and does not handle better than any of the cars mentioned in this thread. if you find this incorrect...i think you should open your mind a little and do some comparing of your own and then come back with a valid argument.

the porsche, GTR, Z06, etc will be and are dedficated to all around best performance values...the GT500 will not be so much because this is not what they are buildign it for. if it were it would be in the same price range as the before-mentioned.

The way you worded makes it sound like the Mustang GT has poor handling, which isn't true by any stretch of the imagination. What is true, though, is that the Mustang, along with most other pony cars, have always been viewed primarily as cheap and powerful drag racers. Sure, the handling on some of them happens to be quite good (I'm always sticking up for the Camaro and Firebird, for example), but it's still not what the car is meant for in the eye of the general public. Like k3 said, a company builds cars to sell, and since the Mustang has always thrived due to its low price and high torque, that's what people expect out of it.
ahh...but you know this is not what i meant at all. i was simply stating that it will not be anywhere close to what a Z06, porsche 911, and the new GTR can do on a track.
it will be a pony car, not a detuned race car. you simply cannot expect a $40k car built, first and fore most, for straight line performance and stick in a class of cars dedicated to be the best performing sports cars under $100k.
japanese and european companies dont and probably will never have a car that will compete directly with the american pony cars that are recently coming back to life. these companies build cars to suit their own market and then offer it to the US...so in general, in other countries, you have people that are into much different types of performance which leads to these companies producing cars built directly for this type of performance.

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