Went and drove a Neon SRT-4 today...well...ANOTHER one...I've driven one in the past...it was alright. But...the one today...Mopar Stage 2...and oooooooooh myyyyyyyyyy Goooooooood. Borla Exhaust...blow off valve...water sprayer for the I/C...race fuel switch for 100 octane + fuel...short throw shifter...faaaaaaaaast as HELL. Better be for $28G+. ~$22G for the car and ~$6G in mods. Stomp on the gas, wait a second for the boost to come on (all 14 psi of it!) and hold the hell on...and don't forget to shift (thank God for fuel cuts...oops...:p)...this leads to an instant increased heart rate. What a blast. It damn near made my girlfriend, who bravely rode shotgun, sick. She's not used to it. All in all, I wouldn't buy it, but don't diss the SRT-4 till you take a ride in a Stage 2.

How cool is this show? It's called Top Gear and it's on Discovery. They were test driving a new "breed" of Lotus Elise (one with a hard top...don't remember the name of it). They had a friggin Apache gun ship chasing the thing around the track trying to get a radar lock on it. All this going on with Motorhead's "Ace of Spades" playing in the background...what a kick ass show...

Search through the Coffee Break-Completely Off Topic forum, they have many clips of Top Gear posted there.

Anyway, I thought that 14-15psi was how much the SRT ran in stock trim? Was the Stage 2 just supporting upgrades?

They run 14 PSI stock...it just had a bunch of factory mods. Very fast...VERY...and very fun.

I'll check out those clips. They're testing a Koenigsegg right now. It was fastest car they've ever tested. 0-60 in 3 seconds...top speed of 240 MPH. They hit ~175 MPH on their test track. That's insane...what an amazing car.

They're testing a Koenigsegg right now. It was fastest car they've ever tested. 0-60 in 3 seconds...top speed of 240 MPH. They hit ~175 MPH on their test track. That's insane...what an amazing car.

I'm not that impressed with it considering it's just barely meeting or very slightly beating the benchmarks the Mclaren F1 set oh what was it? A decade ago?

I like it. It's a bit faster and I think it looks better. Just my :2cents:

Don't get me wrong...I love the McLaren F1...of COURSE...how couldn't any true car guy? But this car is beautiful. The interior is plush:

http://www.koenigsegg.se/graphics/enlarge/overview_interior.jpg
I love the McLaren's 3 seat layout, but that's just BEAUTIFUL, ya know?

I love the way it looks when the roof is out...which is VERY rare for me...I usually don't like the way convertables look with their roof down/stored. The Supra with the Targa top and the case in point are 2 that come to mind that actually still reatain their beauty when you decide to let the wind through your hair.

As for it's outward appearance:

http://www.koenigsegg.se/graphics/imagearchive/34_640.jpg

It's just beautiful. In the words of the company's homepage, "The body of a Koenigsegg is formed for one ultimate purpose; speed. Its beauty is the beauty of speed itself." I think it looks incredible. I'd never really seen one before today. Seen a pic here...pic there...guess a better way to put it is, I never really LOOKED before today. I love it.

As far as the technical side of it...it's supercharged...which to me is a draw back. Why they didn't go the turbo route is beyond me. It's far more efficient. It peaks at 806 HP at 1.4 bar with a screw type (roots...positive displacement...whatever you'd like to call it...) supercharger. Why they chose this is beyond me. It's one of the least efficient S/Cs...basically the bottom of the barrel for forced induction efficiency. They would have been much higher if they boosted the engine with turbos...even at the same boost level. They could have designed a system for very little lag and achieved the same performance at a lower boost level...why they did what they did, I dunno.

Another thing I like better than the McLaren is that this car (I HATE spelling the name of it...so I'll call it either "this car" or something to that effect or the "K-car"...) is that damn near everything on it is personalized or adjustable. The interior...the suspention...the ride hight...even the friggin power steering, the guy on the show today said. That's kinda nice.

This car's extremely fast. Painfully fast, even. I drove that Neon today that was probably in the low 5's to 60 and this car would WALK on it, times 5. I couldn't even imagine driving a K-car. The Neon damn near made my girlfriend sick (lol...how cool is that!?..."please slow down...I'm getting motion sickness...I think I'm gunna pass out."...and I don't think she ever even gets motion sickness!...LOL...)...this car would kill her.

I love the McLaren...but this car is amazing...

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-5/721024/K.JPG

You can't tell me that's not beautiful...

Between the small upswept rear section windows and the roof I think it looks goofy. I'll give the interior a well deserved "odd" and the overall appearance an "unfinished". But maybe that is just me.

I dunno. I like the way all the parts work together. It's just as fast as a McLaren...I just personally think it looks better. It definately looks DIFFERENT...that being said, not just against the McLaren, but different than just about any other car out there, but I like it. I really like the high belt-line (where the body meets the bottom of the door windows...called the belt line). One thing I'll DEFINATELY agree with you on the "odd" rating concerning the interior is how odd looking that shifter looks. It's like a HUGE 6" stick sticking right out of the middle of this beautiful, plush interior. Just looks really out of place...looks almost like a german grenade.

fire in the hole!

anyway, i like the show '5th gear' better, there's more driving in it and the hosts are just as good or better

the CCR looks good but the zonda looks better. usually when you get into high end cars like these, they tend to get less attractive at an attempt to sacrifice looks for performance. but this is what attracts most of us too them...they arent ugly but they arent great looking. the look just means something and everyone knows it. though the above mentioned cars look better than most exotic high end cars. enzo...down right udly in my opinion.




while we are kind of talking about other cars...i got tired of starring at the massive Brembo Brakes on the new EVO so i finally went out and test drove one. well, i wasnt that surprised...he car stopped on a dime. :D

it was funny because the dealership seller road with me a i drove and i kept slamming on the brakes pretty hard. everytime i did i could feel him starring at me with a "WTF are you doing" kind of look. anyways, i finally slam on them REAL hard from 60mph (still didnt break traction)...and he went flying forward. he then stated "Most people test the acceleration performance of this car, you seem to be testing the Braking distances."

i looked at him, smiled and said..."oh, i know it can accelerate fast, but i wanted to know how well it braked, with the huge Bright red foot long brembo Calipers that seem to be calling my name everytime i pass by the dealership."

long story short, the Brembo Brakes on the EVo do in deed stop the car as quick as they look like they would. :D

[QUOTE=longlivetheZ] As far as the technical side of it...it's supercharged...which to me is a draw back. Why they didn't go the turbo route is beyond me. It's far more efficient. It peaks at 806 HP at 1.4 bar with a screw type (roots...positive displacement...whatever you'd like to call it...) supercharger. Why they chose this is beyond me. It's one of the least efficient S/Cs...basically the bottom of the barrel for forced induction efficiency. They would have been much higher if they boosted the engine with turbos...even at the same boost level. They could have designed a system for very little lag and achieved the same performance at a lower boost level...why they did what they did, I dunno[QUOTE]

Almost every car manufacure has dropped the turbo's and gone to the screw type superchargers. The screwtype supercharger is the most efficient supercharger being built today. Make a list of all new supercharged cars today and see how many are turbo'd. The engineers aren't stupid.
Please don't make me prove you wrong. Do alittle research on the screwtype supercharger and see what you come up with.
I have spent 100's of hours on the dyno's trying different combo's and guess what? The positive displacement screwtype supercharger comes out on top every time.
We talked about this a year ago and I said in the very near future the car mfg's would switch to the screwtype superchargers. And to make the point, even the exotics are using them.
Even the new Shelby 500-GT Mustang is using one.
Now if turbo's were better, why in hell's name are they using screwtype superchargers?
Put aside personal feelings and put on your thinking cap.

Make a list of all new supercharged cars today and see how many are turbo'd.

Well typically if a car is supercharged they aren't goint to turbocharge it as well.

Anyway there is still plenty of turbo cars around. The SRT-4, just about every Subaru, the EVO, the new Skyline, Porsches, the 250mph Venryon (think that is how you spell that...), Saabs etc etc etc. I'm actually pretty sure there is more turbo cars being built then supercharged cars. This also brings up the commercial side which so eagerly hunts higher efficiency and has yet to come out with the supercharged diesel.

But a question for the Gringo: Given your support of screw chargers over turbos, why doth you roll in a twin turbo equiped Z? While you were swapping the VK45 I'm sure you could have rigged something up.

its actually the (16/4) Veyron, and its got 4 turbos on a W16. hell yeah
and as for why Koenigsegg is equiped with a screw type s/c. Im pretty sure the guys who developed it know a little more than most of us and know what they were doing. And knew how to achieve what they specifically wanted the car to do.

Ever hear of a GMC 4-71, 6-71, 8-71, 14-71, 6-92 or 8-92 superchargers? General Motors Diesels have been using superchargers longer than I have life on earth.
Mercedes has been using them since day one. They are the old roots type supercharger.

Now a turbocharger is a supercharger and your right, if a engine is supercharged there's no need to turbocharge it also

Like I said, there's not many new mfg's coming out with turbo'd engines anymore, but more and more are changing to the screw type suprecharger.

Ford, GM, Chevy, Buick, Olds, Mercedes, Jaguar, Volvo, Nissan, Toyota, Chrysler, Plymouth just to mention a few all have gone to screw type superchargers, and have dropped the turbo's. Hmmm, I wonder why?

Read the following from Toyota.

TRD
Toyota Racing Development (TRD) shapes Toyota's performance image. A Toyota Motor Sales, U.S.A. subsidiary, TRD develops Toyota racing engines and sells aftermarket performance products under two different brands: TRD Sport Parts and Kazuma. TRD Sport Parts has a supercharger kit for V-6s in Toyota SUVs. The kit has the fourth generation Eaton/Magnuson supercharger at its core, with the rest of the pieces, including calibration, done by TRD.
The TRD Sport Parts blower kit is 50-state legal and fits 3.4L V-6s in '96-to-'99 Toyota 4Runners. A unique feature of this blower is that when installed by a Toyota dealer on a new vehicle, the supercharger and the powertrain are covered a TRD five year/60,000-mile warranty that replaces the OE powertrain warranty but does not affect the rest of the new vehicle warranty. If it's dealer-installed on a used truck, the TRD warranty replaces the remainder of the vehicle's original powertrain warranty. Of all the superchargers we researched, this is the only case of full coverage by any warranty.
Products in TRD's Kazuma line are intended to be more aggressive in their performance enhancement. A Kazuma supercharger kit is available for the 4.5L, inline six-cylinder in the '95-to-'97 Land Cruiser. Again, TRD went with the fourth-generation Eaton/Magnuson blower for the basis of the kit then added its own finishing pieces and engine controls calibration. Kazuma blowers are true to their description of being more aggressive. According to TRD, at the rear wheels you'll see 110 more horsepower and 16 lb-ft more torque. The Kazuma supercharger kit is 50-state legal when used in its base configuration. Also available are additional drive pulleys that further increase performance, but they are not 50-state legal. The most aggressive pulley runs the blower at 12.5 pounds of boost and has the engine generating 258 hp at the flywheel. The Kazuma supercharger kit for Land Cruisers is not covered by any vehicle powertrain warranty.

If this doesn't turn on the lights, do a web search on Alf Lysholm, inventor of the screw type supsrcharger.

Not a one of my cars has a turbo on it.. I have lote of turbo's out in the shop but not on cars.

Ever hear of a GMC 4-71, 6-71, 8-71, 14-71, 6-92 or 8-92 superchargers? General Motors Diesels have been using superchargers longer than I have life on earth.
Mercedes has been using them since day one. They are the old roots type supercharger.

Uh...no. I've never seen a supercharged diesel. And which Mercedes use them? I was only in Germany a short time but I never saw a supercharged Mercedes diesel either. The Kompressors are supercharged but thats the only one I can thing of.

Like I said, there's not many new mfg's coming out with turbo'd engines anymore, but more and more are changing to the screw type suprecharger.

Ford, GM, Chevy, Buick, Olds, Mercedes, Jaguar, Volvo, Nissan, Toyota, Chrysler, Plymouth just to mention a few all have gone to screw type superchargers, and have dropped the turbo's. Hmmm, I wonder why?

Hmm...I put a pretty big list of builders still coming out with turbo cars up there, perhaps a review would do you good.

Read the following from Toyota.

TRD
*press release*

Turbocharged EVO comes with a warranty. SRT-4 does. Porsches do. I don't think there is a mainstream production car sold that doesn't have some sort of warranty on it, turbocharged, supercharged or not.

Not a one of my cars has a turbo on it.. I have lote of turbo's out in the shop but not on cars.

My apologies, I did think you had mentitioned a VH45DETT in there somewhere.

Anyway, given that all debates as to VE, compressor effiency, delta temps and what not have been done to death, reanimated and done to death again I'll not be getting into any more pissing contests over which is better. Besides, math is secondary to results on the track. I'll say have fun with the superchargers, me and my turbos will be heading down a twisty section Route 7 if you are looking for a challenge. After all these years of drag racing you do still know how to make a car go around a corner right Gringo? :cool:

[QUOTE=Broke_as****] Hmm...I put a pretty big list of builders still coming out with turbo cars up there, perhaps a review would do you good.[QUOTE]

OK, Ive done a review and it made me tired. The companys with a * had too many models to list them all so only has a * next to the name.

Ford*
Mercury*
Lincoln*
Chevy*
Buick*
Olds*
Pont.*
Chrysler*
Plym.*
Dodge*
Jaguar XK8
Invicta SI-600
RangeRover
Mini Cooper S
Avanti
Koenigsegg
Panzo
Audi
Mercedes Bentz SL55 495 HP V8
Mercedes Bentz Brabas SLR McLaran
Alfa Romeo
Bugatti type59
Holden Commodor
Stillen G35
Volvo
Toyato
Nissan
Porsche RK Spyder. Porsche also built some limited race cars with superchargers, and says as long as there's a market for the turbo 911 the'll continue to build them.

Now I stopped here as it was getting boring. I'm sure I've missed some of the new cars, but oh well.

Now lets look at your list.

SRT-4
Subaru*
EVO
Skyline
I'll give you Porsche as they still build the Turbo 911
Saab

The scale is kinda out of ballance, perhaps a review would do you good.http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/1547/avatar25898195nr.gif (http://www.imageshack.us)

As for me being able to get around a corner, I think I might still be able to do the twistys in a respectable manner. But rather than taking a chance of bending a nice car, I think it would be more fun to let you ride shotgun in my 240Z in something like the Nevada Silver State Challange or the Pikes Peak hill climb.
The only reason I drag race is the sponsers pay better than Desert, LSR, GP or circle burners. Twistys are my first love. I get my nuts when I'm sideways in a turn. What a rush.

Now lets look at your list.

SRT-4
Subaru*
EVO
Skyline
I'll give you Porsche as they still build the Turbo 911


i think he mentioned saabs also...:lol:

Ah I got the old fart riled up. Good, I haven't kicked a wrinkled ass in a while.

Audi
1.8T

Bugatti (They have a nice website by the way)
EB 110
Veyron

Dodge
SRT-4

Ford
All the big F series trucks and commerical vehicles are turboed...to my knowledge the only supercharged Ford is the GT. I thought the Lightning was but I couldn't find a 05 model Lightning. 06 maybe.

GMC
All forced induction on their commercial trucks is turbocharging.

Mazda
MazdaSpeed6
MazdaSpeedMX-5
Their site sucks but I know they have a factory available turbo kit for the Mazda3 as well

Mercedes
Half and half on this one. Kompressors and SL5s are supercharged, the SL6s and whatnot are twin turbos. However, as much as I could find, their whole commercial line is turbocharged as are all those little Euro only small diesel engines they offer.

Mistubishi
Lancer EVO

Nissan
Skyline

Porsche
911 Turbo

Saab
Everything they make except for the 9-7 SUV

Subaru
Uh...like...all of them?

Volkswagon
Offers a turbo option on most of their cars.

Volvo
I couldn't find a single supercharged Volvo, found out just about their entire line is turbocharged though.

Engine builders
Caterpiler
Cummins

Racing
WRC
F1
Just about anywhere things need to go faster...Top Fuel being an exception.

Buick? Buick what? I couldn't find any current Buick model that is supercharged. And Mercury? No 05 superchargers I could find. Oldsmobile? Again, no superchargers in any of the whopping three models they offer. If you want to get into previous models made in this then you'll have to give me time to compile a list of the hundreds of cars made just in the last decade or two that have been turbocharged. Otherwise I think it would be prudent to stick to current models.

Stillen G35? To my knowledge that is not a factory option. And if you want to get into turbo kits available on the aftermarket vs aftermarket supercharger kits..well, resurge of hotrodding regardless, the ricer tsunami will crush this issue. I mean damn, I've seen the Geo Metro turbo kit. Whiskey Tango Foxtrot over?

Plymouth. Last I heard not only were there no superchargers available, there were no Plymouths available. To my knowledge the brand got axed.

From what I have read again and again to be the most efficient internal combustion engines in the world, container ship engines, big huge ****ing ass turbocharged two strokes.

And as the Audi site will tell you so proudly, their 10.5:1 compression, direct injection 2.0 turbo engine just won engine of the year for whatever that is worth.

Damn Gringo, I got about halfway down your list and found so many errors that I just stopped. I hope that I've erred in my searching but I really don't think I have. I thought better of you old man.

Damn you really think you can kick this ass?

Buick???? ever heard of the Park Ave., Riveria, LaSabre or Regal GS.

Nissan Frontier

Ford Thunderbird

Of course Toyota's
Sequoia
Tundra
Corolla

I forgot the BMW 328i

Mercedes SLK230

Mazda Millenia

Pontiac sunfire GTO Aztek

Then in the semi trucks GMAC 6-71, 8-71 6-92, 8-92 the we get into the really big shit the EDM's which use the largest superchargers in the world under licence from Ingorsol-Rand.

If you'd like I'll go back to the very first car built and we'll put every car that came from the factory stock with a turbo and supercharger and see which was the most popular with engine engineers.

Bottom line is the turbos are not as efficient as a supercharger and the engineers are having one hellof a time meeting emission standards and are switching to screw type superchargers.

Just say the magic word and I'll start doing some research cause I can think of about 100 old cars that came from the factory with superchargers on them. Just between Ford, Studebaker, Kaiser and Hudson I can come up with 50 different models. Change that to 200.

Have fun Gringo, I'm sure you could come up with a list from hell of all supercharged cars ever made. I just figured you wouldn't try to bullshit on it. You want to keep the pissing contest going find someone else.

Bottom line is the turbos are not as efficient as a supercharger

Now, you're saying the EXACT opposite of what ALL the literature I have says:

"When properly sized and calibrated, a turbocharger will deliver outstanding performance while demanding few concessions. A turbocharger is more efficient than a supercharger, both thermally and mechanically."

--Supercharging, Turbocharging and Nitrous Oxide Performance Handbook, Early Davis and Diane Perkins-Davis, Pg. 72

"Turbos always will outperform supercharged cars when it comes to power production."

--http://www.automotiveforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=201348
Post #3.

...amongst other stuff.

I don't care about popularity...I know what works. Screw type S/Cs are my LEAST favorite because:

Concerning positive displacement/screw type S/Cs..."Its major disadvantages are its high noise level, poor efficiency, and larger physical size."

--Supercharging, Turbocharging and Nitrous Oxide Performance Handbook, Early Davis and Diane Perkins-Davis, Pg. 36

Now...who's right? You, "Bottom line is the turbos are not as efficient as a supercharger", or the pros, "A turbocharger is more efficient than a supercharger, both thermally and mechanically."?

Good cause I really didn't feel like doing alot research, but FYI,
in 1923 when Ferdinand Porsche was working for Mercedes Benz in Stuttgart, Germany he invented the supercharger and the Mercedes SS and SSK were the first cars ever to be supercharged.

Neat, how fun... yay..


Ok, ladies... that's about enough. If you must, continue your little squabble in PM's. But this thread is done... beyond repair.

Closed.