"Tickers" - if you knew then, what ....


Ramblin Fever
06-23-2005, 10:37 AM
you know now - would you have used synthetic oil?

This post is long, but please read, I would like your opinion, and really think about what I'm saying.

I know many of us tickers have 6-9 yr old vehicles, and synthetics were still kind of shakey in the thought of using.

However, the more I read up on this issue - the ticking, and the "make sure to change the oil every 3K miles", in which I have religiously done so since 11K miles (when purchased). Yet, I still have developed a tick, which from everything I've read, is because the holes in the lifters are filled with gunk.

I have always used Havoline 10w-30 with a good filter, so this "gunk in the lifters" thing leads me to believe that regular petroleum oil is leaving behind a lot of residue that even "changing your oil hot" is not pulling out.

Folks from the 4x4wire website have all dealt with this as well, and have a LOT of good information, I couldn't believe all the information and different options people have tried and cured, or tried and somewhat managed at a low level (ticking).

I don't like the idea of just sitting back and living with it - some say it does no harm, and just makes noise - but the fact is, is there's gunk in there, and it will keep building, even with staying at 3K mile intervals.

And I don't just believe in the "changing your oil more frequently" for a while will help either, as the end result is still there, something, some residue is still being left behind - what else can cause the "gunk" to fill the passage ways IF one has always done oil changes right on time. And used, supposedly one of the better dino oils on the market.

Basically what I'm saying, is yes, the lifter noise can definitely come from lack of maintenance, they are very susceptable to particles in the oil; but obviously, in my situation, and in many other owners, it's NOT from lack of maintenance, so what else could it be??

I have been pounding that question, "what else could it be?" through my mind for the last several days. I know, I know, I'm a#!@ retentive, but I have spent the last 8 years taking extremely good care of this rig, inside and out, and I've taken pride in the fact that I don't have an "american iron" rig to the dismay of others in my family - who've always told me, get rid of that "thing" and get yourself a :shakehead "chevy" or a "real" vehicle. :headshake

I'm not going to allow this "thing" to slowly die at only 140K miles, she still has a lot of life left without replacing internal components. And I like being "different" in the fact that my rig is becoming "rare". I don't want a chevy, ford or dodge, and Xterra's - they don't carry the "look" that the older Rodeo's carry.

And so from my understanding, the agenda is to "clean" out the lifters, rather then just "soften" the sound. All I can do is try, right?

Sea-foam is the only "additive" product I care to use, but don't care to use it continuously - once in a great while, ok; but, if an oil is in fact doing it's job, and not leaving behind particles when drained, one shouldn't have to use a product to "free lifters".

Especially not every 2nd or 3rd oil change, once every 50-70K miles I can see, even with the use of synthetic oils, but not every 6-9K miles for us every 3K oil changers. If we're constantly having to clean up behind the oil, what's the point in running that oil?

I do believe Havoline is a good oil, and I now believe that with these picky lifters, I should've done every 2K mile oil changes instead, at least that's the protocal that some 95-97 owners have done on the other board and have never had the tick even at close to 200K.

Thing is, is I don't have time for every 2K mile oil changes, and I don't trust anyone else to do it either. And, at this point, just switching to 2K mile oil changes, isn't going to "clear" out those lifters, well maybe, in a year or so, but how much damage are they doing by rattling in the meantime??

My going to test theory, possibly an $$$ one for a while, is running 0w-30 Mobile 1 synthetic for possibly a day, drain it & change filter, put in more Mobile 1 0w-30 for a few days. Drain it & change to Rotella 5w-40 synthetic and go from there.

I've heard great things about the Rotella.

I will not run the 0w-30 Mobile 1 for a 3k mile cycle initially, just to play it safe. Some said about the "fear" of particles floating around in a new oil and plugging the oil pick-up - well, theoretically, I shouldn't "have" that many particles or sludge, should I?? If the Havoline regular oil has been doing it's job!

FWIW, if I had over 200K, I'd be more inclined to "accept" it, but why should anyone except it, IF an oil was working correctly and maintenace was followed.

Anyhow, this is my take, and this is what I'm going to attempt, my only fear is the possibility of leaking gaskets - I don't have any leaks now, so hopefully it'll stay that way.

amigo-2k
06-23-2005, 11:41 AM
"Rotella 5w-40 synthetic"

Where are you buying this from? I have called about 20 places around my parts looking for it for my VW but no luck.

A couple of things to keep in mind is that during the 3k oil changes the driving habits during that period could be different. If you do a lot of stop and go traffic and short trips it will be really hard on the oil and will cause sluding due to not having the engine running long enough (during the short trips) to boil them off.

My previous truck:

http://www.geocities.com/ResearchTriangle/Lab/7859/s10.html


was a 1986 S10 (purchase by my family new and given to me when I was 16 (in 1991). We alway did 2k oil changes, and I sold it in 2000 (when I purchased my 2000 Amigo) with 181k on it. 4 years later I saw it still driving around town.

I too am currently doing 3k changes (with sea foam, due to the know oil useage problems) and plan to go to 2.5k when I hit 100k.

My point here is that with proper maintaince you can make a truck last a very very long time (Chevy, Ford, Nissan and yes Isuzu). The key to it is to keeping it going is keeping an eye and an ear on it, and fix things as soon as the start to go bad OR swap out parts you just don't trust anymore due to the high mileage.

iskiuskiweski
06-23-2005, 12:01 PM
I read it all. I agree with what your saying, your doing your part but everyone else doesn't seem to be doing there's.

My experience has been that no matter what brand or weight oil you run or how hot it is when you change it, there will always be sludge build up. It is just an inherant part of dino based oil. Someone once told to not use Quakerstate oil because it had parafin in it which cased a waxy type build up, I don't know if it is true or not but anyway, I have never used it.

Although the new synthetics claim that this is no longer the case with their product. But who knows for sure without using them long term and finding out for your self.

If I had the choice and starting with a brand new vehicle, I would use synthetic only from the start. If their claim is true then we would never run into this problem again.

So for now we can only hope that the engineers of our society take to heart the problems that we have and try to correct them and build a better product for the future.

Ramblin Fever
06-23-2005, 12:25 PM
My point here is that with proper maintaince you can make a truck last a very very long time (Chevy, Ford, Nissan and yes Isuzu). The key to it is to keeping it going is keeping an eye and an ear on it, and fix things as soon as the start to go bad OR swap out parts you just don't trust anymore due to the high mileage.

This is exactly my point, I have been maintaining this truck, always have, and I have no doubt that it'll last a lot longer. I do have an ear on it "the ticking", and I'm trying to get rid of it so it'll run healthier.

My issue is simply with the ticking, from my understanding it's not healthy - and I don't feel I should have to spend $1,200-2000 to replace lifters just yet.

That's one reason why I haven't switched to Rotella this last week, I can't find it. I'm going to look and see about 10w-30 Mobil Truck & SUV or the German Castrol synthetic.

Thank you for all the help you've given.

Ramblin Fever
06-23-2005, 01:53 PM
Also, in general, this is a stop/go driving vehicle, driven for about 30 minutes, at 45-60 mph twice a day. But it's primarily for highway use going on 300-400 mile trips every month, sometimes twice a month.

This truck sees a LOT of highway driving between speeds of 65-70 mph

todds21
06-23-2005, 06:19 PM
I feel the same way you do about wanting your truck to last many years. I know that this motor is hard on oil, which is why I opted to switch to a synthetic. I have maintained my 97 by the book for the first 120K and plan on driving it for many more years. I have been doing research over on http://bobistheoilguy.com and found that oil is like religion. Everyone has different beliefs and you just have to decide what you wanna go with. I have used seafoam and will continue to use it for the fuel system. I am going to aggresively try to get any sludge out of the system. The consensus over on bobistheoilguy is that auto-rx is one of the better products for this. I am hoping that with synthetic oil and some auto-rx treatments i can eliminate any sludge residue. I hope whatever plan of action you take works out for you.

Cat Fuzz
06-23-2005, 06:55 PM
I just thought of something. Feel free to smack me down. Could you possibly be hearing your fuel injectors and not the lifters? I have often lifted the hood on a running car only to have someone comment on the "noisy lifters" when its just fuel injectors ticking.

Just a random thought I wanted to toss out there.

marcre
06-23-2005, 07:09 PM
Sorry for the silly question, but I gotta know. Can someone describe what the ticking sounds like? The reason I ask is because I have had a ticking sound in my rodeo since I bought it in march 2004. I always thought it was a dash rattle. It sounded like a plastic fan with a stick just touching the blades. The reason I ask is I haven't heard it in a while, since my first sea foam treatment.

Thanks, and sorry to post in you thread. But I have to agree with all on this. It is something that people shouldn't have to deal with. I do not blame the oil. I blame the engine design. Even if it is harmless, it is annoying.


Marc

Ramblin Fever
06-23-2005, 09:12 PM
I just thought of something. Feel free to smack me down. Could you possibly be hearing your fuel injectors and not the lifters? I have often lifted the hood on a running car only to have someone comment on the "noisy lifters" when its just fuel injectors ticking.

Just a random thought I wanted to toss out there.


Not gonna smack you down at all, cuz you could be onto something.

I will tell you that the noise is somewhat louder through the passenger wheel well, and you can REALLY hear it if you get on the ground below the engine at start-up, what ever it is, quiets down after 10-20 minutes of driving.

I can tell you that if you pop the hood, you can't hear this noise, it's not within the open hood compartment - if that makes sense.

One other thing, I tried a combination of 10w-40 and Mobil 1 oil filter for 3 days, the sound was 75% worse.

Immediately switched to 5w-30 Havoline, and an AC Delco oil filter, sound is much improved, but still there.

What do fuel injectors sound like?

Thank you all for your input!

Ramblin Fever
06-23-2005, 09:14 PM
I feel the same way you do about wanting your truck to last many years. I know that this motor is hard on oil, which is why I opted to switch to a synthetic. I have maintained my 97 by the book for the first 120K and plan on driving it for many more years. I have been doing research over on http://bobistheoilguy.com and found that oil is like religion. Everyone has different beliefs and you just have to decide what you wanna go with. I have used seafoam and will continue to use it for the fuel system. I am going to aggresively try to get any sludge out of the system. The consensus over on bobistheoilguy is that auto-rx is one of the better products for this. I am hoping that with synthetic oil and some auto-rx treatments i can eliminate any sludge residue. I hope whatever plan of action you take works out for you.


Sorry bout the questions - But how long ago did you switch to synthetic (mileage)?

What brand/viscosity are you using?

And how long are your drain intervals?

Can I also ask if you had any problems, i.e. leaks in particular?

Also, do you think it's too late, 140K, to switch to synthetic?

Cat Fuzz
06-23-2005, 09:47 PM
These are great for pinpointing engine noises. (http://www.sears.com/sr/javasr/product.do?BV_UseBVCookie=Yes&vertical=TOOL&pid=00945164000)

bighops2000
06-24-2005, 02:37 AM
Ill double check in the morning but mine sounds like its ticking on the top of the engine towards the driver side almost like its just inside the throttle body throat. thats why i thought that spraying the deep creep in there would help. like i said Ill double check tommorrow. but make sure your doing it with the hood up b/c the sound can bounce all off the top of the hood. I just want to make sure that we have the same tick so we can try the same solution and get the same result.

todds21
06-24-2005, 09:16 AM
Sorry bout the questions - But how long ago did you switch to synthetic (mileage)?

What brand/viscosity are you using?

And how long are your drain intervals?

Can I also ask if you had any problems, i.e. leaks in particular?

Also, do you think it's too late, 140K, to switch to synthetic?


I switched last year at around 100K. I am running the Amsoil 10w30 and did a 12K drain interval. I think that I still have some sludge in the engine and that messed up some of the numbers on my oil analysis. I have never had any problems with leaks on this engine, just burns some oil especially when alot of highway miles. I did alot of research and was concerned about it being to late to switch to synthetic and if I would benefit at all. From everything I have read, it seems like the rule of thumb is the question if the motor has been well taken care of. I still need to do some engine cleaning and the product that sounds like it works great is auto-rx. This is not a instant pour it in and drain it out product. It gets great reviews over at bobistheoilguy for a slow cleansing effect. Everyone has their own opinion on this topic. I am really hoping that if I can get all the sludge out of the engine with 2 auto-RX cleansings and then running a good synthetic (amsoil or mobil) I can keep the motor going for another 100K. My Rodeo does run great on the synthetic and I am hoping that it works as the marketing blurb claims.....

Resists high temperature burn-off, chemical breakdown and sludging -- keeps engines cleaner. Outstanding low temperature fluidity for fast, dependable winter starts and immediate start-up protection.

Only time will tell, I am spending a couple bucks more on oil now. I have done the 3K oil change religiously for the first 100K and it still seems like I have some sludgeing. The only negative thing that I can think of is that I am wasting some money on the synthetic oil, but for me in the big picture of the costs of a vehicle that is minimal since I am driving this truck till it dies. Hopefully I can be the Rodeo synthetic science project and will have some better results to post in several years.

Ramblin Fever
06-24-2005, 09:50 AM
Todds21 - Thank you greatly, can I ask you another?? Did you prep the engine at all before switching?

I too am not a fan of some "flush" to come in and clean it up quick - I don't want that either; but I'm kind of leary of doing the synthetic for one fear only, and that is the pick-up oil screen getting clogged.

Think what I'll do is run another 1 week cycle of Havoline 5w-30 dino, without doing another round of sea-foam, then switched to Mobil 1 4th of July weekend, run it for a week or two, then dump it and refill and go for 2-3K miles.

Lot of good oil getting dumped, I know, but I don't want to overload the system with too much of an extended interval too soon.

todds21
06-24-2005, 10:07 AM
Todds21 - Thank you greatly, can I ask you another?? Did you prep the engine at all before switching?

I too am not a fan of some "flush" to come in and clean it up quick - I don't want that either; but I'm kind of leary of doing the synthetic for one fear only, and that is the pick-up oil screen getting clogged.

Think what I'll do is run another 1 week cycle of Havoline 5w-30 dino, without doing another round of sea-foam, then switched to Mobil 1 4th of July weekend, run it for a week or two, then dump it and refill and go for 2-3K miles.

Lot of good oil getting dumped, I know, but I don't want to overload the system with too much of an extended interval too soon.


I ran the amsoil flush, i was hesitant but did not cause any problems. I will not run another quick flush again because of the clogging you mentioned. Short oil change intervals will help. You may want to change out your oil filters if your concerned about clogging. I am running extended drain intervals but go heavy on changing the oil filters. I do it now about every 3 months. Synthetics do have a cleansing effect with the extra detergents, just really a quesstion of how much sludge you have in your engine and how long it will take to slowly work out.

Ramblin Fever
06-24-2005, 03:19 PM
Thank you for your insight!

Definitely going to switch over; if this works out good, I will never use regular oil again - in anything.

NJFrank
06-25-2005, 02:13 AM
Ramblin Fever

Let me know how it goes as I'm in the same boat as you re the tapping sound, and fears about going to Synthetic at 125k. ( 96 passport 3.2).

Todds21, thanks for the insight. I figure I'm going to try the Auto-RX method, and if all works well go synthetic.

Thanks all

danforth45
06-26-2005, 09:20 AM
I have a 97 with 151k. I bought the truck with 101k and it had a lifter tick. At 110k I decided to switch to 5w30 mobil1 to try to fix the tick. Ever since then I have tried about every cleaner out there. I flushed twice with gunk, ran rislone a few times, used seafoam a few times, cd2, trany fluid, and still no results!

I have talked to usuzu mechanics and they all say don't worry about it, just turn your radio up!

like everyone here I find the tick very annoying even if they say it won't hurt the engine, IT JUST DOESN'T SOUND RIGHT !!

I may try the 0w30 mobil1 trick like isuzu says.

I may have noticed a slight difference when i ran the sea foam.

There's got to be a way to fix this. if anyone finds the cure, please let every one know!

anthonyn
06-26-2005, 03:12 PM
There's got to be a way to fix this. if anyone finds the cure, please let every one know!

I'm convinced their is no cure. It is a chronic illness that can be managed. I know people who have replaced all their lifters and used synthetic oil from that point on and still had the tick come back after some 30-40k miles. Right now, my rodeo has the tick, but it is fairly quiet. Those who say they don't have the tick, probably do to some extent, but can't discern it over the various other engine noises. To me, its a design flaw and the best we can do is get to a level where it no longer stands out (say, over the injector noise, or the drive belts).

And, yes over the years i've tried everything under the sun, including seafoam, mobil 1 0w-30, rislone, auto-rx, BG MOA, lucas oil treatment, ATF, Gunk Motor Flush, Marvel Mystery Oil, and many others I can't even recall anymore.

For those who's tick isn't very loud, beware. I was once in your shoes and read about all the remedies in these forums and decided that I had to kill the tick completely. After Gunk motor flushes and mobil one oil, the tick grew into a Godzilla of a tapping noise. So much so, that when I pulled up at a light, people in the cars next to me would turn to look. Fortunately I've gotten it back to the 'little' tick status again.

I've concluded that if the tick is a 'little' tick, then the best I can do is frequent oil changes at no more than 3k mile intervals using an oil filter that doesn't agravate the tick (for me, its the pureone). With a 3k interval, it really doesn't matter if I use conventional or synthetic oil. The key thing here is to always have clean oil in the engine. I'm also not convinced that thinner oil is always the way to go. If it works for you then go with it. I find that my rodeo likes the 10w-30 over thinner oils like a 0w or 5w. While technically these oils are only thinner at startup, I believe getting the lifters adequately pressurized at startup is crucial.

If you have a bunch of sludge in the engine, then I'd recommend auto-rx. That stuff really works and won't harm your seals, like the solvent flushes. At one point during the rinse phase of the auto-rx treatment, my engine was so smooth and quiet it was eery and a little disconcerting.

Ramblin Fever
06-26-2005, 06:13 PM
I'm also not convinced that thinner oil is always the way to go. If it works for you then go with it. I find that my rodeo likes the 10w-30 over thinner oils like a 0w or 5w. While technically these oils are only thinner at startup, I believe getting the lifters adequately pressurized at startup is crucial.

I agree, I'm on my 2nd round of 5w-30 Havoline in the last 2 weeks; wanted to switch over to synthetic Friday - but didn't have the funds right then and the oil needed changed. I ran 2 rounds of Sea-foam, changing the oil each time after.

Have learned a few things with trial and error this last month, my "tick" does NOT like Mobil 1 oil filters, got REALLY :shakehead loud!

High mileage oil, specifically 1 qt of 10w-40 Havoline mixed with 4.5 qts of 10w-30 Havoline regular oil created :eek7: :uhoh: sounds!! Combine that with an AC Delco oil filter :headshake

This last round is with nothing but 5w-30 Havoline regular oil and back to an Isuzu filter - not bad at all, I must say, but then again, it's only ran for 10 minutes this whole weekend.

But, the ticking was somewhat quieter with 10w-30 and an Isuzu filter. Have never before this week, ran 5w-30.

I still have a Pureone premium plus oil filter I wanted to try out, but to be honest - I'm leary to.

This coming weekend, truck will have another oil change, and this time it'll be filled with 10w-30 synthetic Havoline, if it doesn't "cure" the evil, then at least it'll run cleaner.

Have done a LOT of hours researching on the Bob'stheoilguy website, and after having more time to research through files, I can't say I'm all that impressed with the given information on Mobil 1 synthetics.

You have those that rave about the 5w,10w-30's and those that dispise them, saying that their engines grew louder and clankier and wanted to know why their oil analysis showed somewhat higher bearing wear with Mobil 1's versus Delvac 1, and other synthetics.

I have to agree with what most were saying - it depends on the vehicle that it's in.

Trial and error, I'll start with Havoline "synthetics", because Havoline does make a very good dino oil and have used it for years.

If I don't feel it's making an improvement, or at least keeping the "tick" soft, I'll probably switch to Delvac 1 or Amsoil.

Another interesting bit of info I was reading on the "Oil Bible" tid-bit on the internet was that "if it ain't broke, don't fix it", in regards to High mileage oils. If you're not burning oil, leaking it, or having any problems of the like, it's not needed.

I'll keep everyone posted!

Meantime, she's washed and waxed, and damn, for an 8yr old truck - she shines up good!

danforth45
07-05-2005, 05:41 PM
Good news!

I recently changed my oil and I noticed my tick is significantly less noisy.

I flushed it with gunk motor flush and changed the oil as i normally do. the only other change was i used a different oil filter. Normally I use the Fram tough guard. this time they were out and I had to use a regular Fram filter.

Now my oil pressure is alot higher and the tick is almost gone. I think the filter caused the change because I have flushed it before with no change.

hope this helps someone!!!!!!!

Ramblin Fever
07-05-2005, 08:28 PM
Are you still using Mobil 1 5w-30 synthetic?

danforth45
07-05-2005, 09:02 PM
I have been using 10w30 mobil1 for the past year or so, at first i used 5w30 then i switched to 10w30.

bighops2000
07-06-2005, 01:36 AM
Hey i use the fram tough guard. At idle where is your oil pressure mine is at the first labeled mark? i think its about 30 or something. im scared to use the cheaper filter.

danforth45
07-06-2005, 07:34 AM
Mine had the same pressure when using the tough guard! the tick ws loud and annoying. Now it starts out at about 85. with the cheaper fram.

I wouldn't be scared about the cheaper filter, it may be better because it is less restrictive and lets it build higher oil pressure, on the other hand is it letting more dirt circulate through the engine? I don't know, I allways change my oil when it looks dirty anyway.
if you read a post above, a member says that using an isuzu filter caused less tick, I think we're on to something here with the oil filter!

Ramblin Fever
07-06-2005, 09:53 AM
Yep! I'm leary of trying another kind of filter at this point, cause my tick has quieted down so much.

I can tell you that using the following filters make it worse: Mobil 1, AC Delco, STP, and one of the fram ones (can't remember which one, haven't used them in a LONG time).

Bosch is not too bad, that one and the Isuzu filter are about the same.

Wanted to try the Puralator Premium plus, it's sitting in the truck now - thinking about just returning it. Got a good deal on Isuzu filters from Tynan's Isuzu, 5 for $20.

bighops2000
07-06-2005, 12:25 PM
I concur. I noticed that the 6 dollar stp filter made it louder. However when i used tyhe mobile 1 filter i was running synthetic so i cant give you an accurate assessment. So at least we all know now that stp sucks. How does the k & N filter work with tickers. one more thing where does it sound like your tick is coming from on the engine.

rvaccare
07-07-2005, 01:41 PM
I just thought of something. Feel free to smack me down. Could you possibly be hearing your fuel injectors and not the lifters? I have often lifted the hood on a running car only to have someone comment on the "noisy lifters" when its just fuel injectors ticking.

Just a random thought I wanted to toss out there.

I am curious about this too, because I have a ticking (have had it for about 15-20K miles). When it first started, it sounded more like a rattle, and it sounded more like it was coming from under the vehicle between the driver and passenger seats (more so from the passenger side). My thought at the time, and I have seen others post this elsewhere, is that it may be the interior of the muffler or an exhaust pipe. Thus, I have just ignored it. Naturally, I am not very knowledgeable about cars, but my '99 Rodeo stands at 106K, and I want to milk it for a few more years, so every little noise has me concerned. I keep reading about this ticking, and I don't know if it applies to my situation or not. I do have various other problems that concern me more than this, but if it could be my fuel injectors making the noise, maybe I should correct the situation.

Ramblin Fever
07-07-2005, 02:01 PM
rvaccare - You know your issue kind of sounds like the timing belt tensioner failing.

The 98+ years do not have the same type of lifters, as the 93-97's have. The reason ours tend to tick is they are hydraulic, in other words, picky!

I no nothing of the 98+ years in relation to "ticking", only know they don't have the hydraulic lifters.

Now the timing belt tensioner failure is very common after 100K miles on the 3.2/3.5L's and from what I've heard the noise comes from the passenger side of the engine. It sounds VERY similar to a loud tick, then slowly turns into sounding like a rod knock.

Some mechanics have gone as far as mis-diagnosing it as a rod knock or engine failure.

Eagle88
07-19-2005, 11:23 PM
I have always used ATF in the oil to keep things clean, You do have to check the oil level more often the ATF will burn off. We always did the same thing in our military vehicles also. I change my filter every 1500 miles, and the oil every 3000 and have never had any noisey lifters. To determine lifters or injectors, the best thing is a stethescope.

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