Common Sense?

I've been working on cars for a long time and it seems to me the cars get worse every year. Some of the places the "engineers" put frequently replaced parts is absolutely ridiculous.

Just a couple things:
Chevy van with 40+ gallon gas tank has to be removed in order to get the fuel pump out. Why not put a door in the floor? 40 gallons of gas is very heavy and dangerous to me moving around.

Ford Taurus radiator, you know it will eventually need replacement. But the morons desgin is terrible, the whole front bumper needs to be removed.

Toyota V6 oil filters :iceslolan :screwy: they tuck that baby up in the exhaust manifold, oh that's lovely to change when hot. The Lexus 4wd station wagons("SUV") are the worst.

Now the thing they're doing is plastic engine covers. How shitty does that look? Spend $60K on a BMW and it looks like a plastic box is powering the car. :disappoin All that plastic cover does is cover the rats nest of poor wiring.

I know what you mean. I used to work at a garage when I was in high school and plenty of poorly designed cars came in there. The worst were the Audi's and VW's. A massive skid plate had to be removed just to get to the oil filter, which was located on the side of the engine about halfway up with no easy way to get it out. That's why I have given up on new cars and just buy older cars. My 1990 buick lesabre is no gem to look at but it's very very roomy under the hood and I don't have to remove the transmission to change the oil :)

or how bout someof the imports that u have to take the wheel off to get to the oil filter. it just doesnt make any sence.

Its not something that has started recently, its been going on since the first cars started to be mass produced.

I have a theory that design engineers have an on going fued with mechanics.

Its why heater cores are always buried in the deepest recesses of the dash, and why oil filters are always located close to exhaust manifolds.
It was differntials have fill plugs, but no drain plug.
Its why the "auto" adjuster on drum brakes never works, and its why the front hub nuts are done up to 100ft/lbs more than the average shop air gun can handle.
Its why you have to remove a complete axle to replace a C.V. joint, and it's why they always put a sharp edge next to a diffficult to undo bolt.
It's why you have to remove half the dash bourd just to install a stereo, and its why there might be wiring in the back for an extra set of speakers, but no where to mount them.
Its why no matter how you turn the wheel and your head, you have to take the wheel off to check brake pads.

How about some Saturns. To change the alternator you have to remove the passenger side driveshaft, disassemble the strut/suspension, AND take off the right case end for the transmission!!! Its a 6.5 hour labor project for an ALTERNATOR.

Ironically the easiest car I ever worked on was my BMW. Everything was easily accessed from fool-proof locations. It had two fuel pumps. The one in the tank was accessed by a door under the back seat. The second pump was located along the frame rail and the fuel line actually doglegged so the filter could be accessed without lifting the car. My ground effects body kit was actually touching the fuel pump it was so easy to reach.

And I find it SOOO ironic that garages won't touch BMWs and those that do work on them charge four times as much for labor, just because its a BMW. If the word ever got out that BMWs were the easiest vehicle to work on, the economy would crumble. :)

I was on the road and stopped in to a Quik lube type place where their daily special was $19.95. They told me that since it was a BMW, they charge $49.95!!!! That's 150% more for a car that would have cost them LESS to service. Rip off. All of them.

That is the single most compelling reason I buy classic American Iron. Sure, newer cars take advantage of better reliability, more comfort, up-to-date style... but at what cost? I just bought the parts for a complete brake rebuild on my 73 Impala Station Wagon. wheel cylinders, master cylinder, pads, shoes, anti-squeal, calipers, fluid, and even some emery cloth to break the glaze on the drums. Total cost WITH core charges? $112 from a parts store. I bought an alternator for the same car. $27 rebuilt, and I was able to install it in 12 minutes with a 9/16" wrench, a 7/16" wrench, and a piece of 2x4 to pry it for tension. Gotta love old iron :)

LOL!


Iv gone to the parts store in my old Triumph, pulled out the points, rotor, cap and condensor. Gone inside and got replacements, gone back outside, installed them, retimed it and driven away.
Can't do that with a modern car :)


Some moderns are getting rediculasly bad when it comes to replacing general service parts.
Most new V6 Toyotas have the engine angled in the car in such away that the back set 3 cylinders are up against the firewall.
To get the plugs and leads you have to pull the engine out.
Sure they are long life items, that are supposed to last 100,000ks. But what happens if you buy a used one with 99,000ks on it?
Thats one damn expensive first service.

An addition to the 'what the...?' list: Check out an STS-V. Would someone go out and count the radiators (yes, plural) and report back?! :)

Curtis- Is that 6.5 hour job a shop would charge you for? or a 6.5 hour job in your driveway?

98 Honda Accord- Do a clutch. Take off 3 engine mounts, remove the entire bottom subframe (trail arms and all) disconnect right side lower ball joint

And I want to know how they decide to put bolts in the tranmission to the engine. "Lets stick one everywhere its almost impossible to reach it."
Also, they rotors on honda's are backwards. You have to remove the ENTIRE upright, have the bearing pressed out, remove the rotor, put new one back in. Then have the bearing pressed back into the upright...

Curtis- Is that 6.5 hour job a shop would charge you for? or a 6.5 hour job in your driveway?


That's what a shop quoted my friend on her Saturn. The printed estimate had labor at 6.5, so it must be what the book says. I was going to do it for her, but I didn't have a lift, the proper tools or the know-how at the time. We were living in our travel trailer and all I had were the tools that fit in a small kit.

It ended up costing her $380 to get it replaced. It would have been more if I hadn't complained and hung around the shop in my GM goodwrench work shirt :)

Just wow. Generally the books are extremely stringent on the hours too. 6.5 hours for an alternator is retarded. (These same books quote 10 hours for a complete engine swap for a newer honda)

Acura TL needs lower ball joints. The only way to get them is with new steering knuckles and wheel bearings. If I remember right our cost on the parts was over $700 to fix $30 worth of broken stuff. With mark ups and labor it was a $1000 job.

I think the car manufacturers are just making less and less money from selling cars, so they just make them more difficult to work on so they can charge you for labor later. Needing special tools just makes it even harder to work on your own car.

So far, general maintenance on my car has been a piece of cake- I use a suction device to take the oil out the dip-stick tube, the oil filter is a drop-in right next to the dip-stick, the fuel filter is right next to the washer fluid reservoir, the air filter and cabin filter are a piece of cake. Cleaning the air filter pre-screen requires removing the battery, but that's not difficult, just annoying. Glow plugs are easy as pie. The timing belt is the only thing so far that I'm planning on taking the car to someone for. I'm sure when it comes time to start actually replacing stuff I'll find something to complain about, but so far so good.

I do have to laugh at the labor involved with some of today's cars. I applaud the complex packaging that auto makers design but I wonder why some of it happened. I know I sound like a broken record, but anyone who's worked on a BMW has probably seen the brilliant ease they've engineered into maintenance. I replaced an A/C compressor on a friend's BMW 325. I had always known that the driver's side inner fender well had a stamped divot in it for no apparent reason. Well, the reason is so that the A/C compressor can easily come out. If that dent weren't there the job would require lifting the engine 1". They think of everything.

Here's on for you... Anyone ever try a tune-up on a Ford Aerostar? It doesn't matter if you try under the hood, removing the cowl inside, or from underneath, you can't reach a single plug without special tools. I couldn't even do a cap and rotor on that thing.

It is possible for a complex service procedure to 'total' a car.
A few years ago, I bought a nearly perfect Fiero SE for $160. It ran great, looked perfect, had all the options, everything worked.....except for the clutch.
The previous owner sold it because the clutch replacement was worth more than the car was worth, (dropping the entire driveline and cradle, then separating the engine from the trans......worth $1000 plus parts. )

As an engineer (not Automotive) I will try and argue the other side. Engineers do not purposely make things difficult to repair. They have a set of requirements that they need to work to and meet in a certain amount of time. Often they have to keep cramming more and more into small spaces. due to government imposed regulations and they also have to use as much of an existing design as possible to save costs. Often Engineers are amazed at what marketing promises customers and somehow they need to develop it and at cost budget.

So as an example an alternator may be perfectly located one year but the next year they may need to position it for a different rad hose (or something) and all they are allowed to change is the mounting braket but to keep the same belt pully, electrical cable (length...)... because there are 6 million in stock. Ultimatley it is the bean counters who drive the decisions and they are the ones with the least technical ability. Of course the added bonus is the repair costs the dealers can make. However with the warranties out today they pay for they repairs for the first few years. This of course comes out of a different budget and the bean counters do not care during the design phase.

I think the first post in this thread mentioned a door to access the fuel pump and this may sound like a great idea at first but perhaps there is a safety violation here that we don't know about.

I think if designers had their way with unlimited budget ans time they would come up with a car that one could change out parts in fractions of hours.

I think if designers had their way with unlimited budget ans time they would come up with a car that one could change out parts in fractions of hours.



If only we could all drive WRC rally cars!

There are 3 requirments that every part must meet before it can be fitted to a rally car:

- It must be faster

- It must be strong

- It must be easy to replace

Normal People: "If it isn't broken, don't fix it"
Engineers: "If it isn't broken, it doesn't have enough features..."

Curtis: "if it isn't broken, the car is too expensive to buy"

Curtis' wife: "if its not a Toyota, I won't dirty my @ss on it"

Then Curtis is stuck doing maintenance on a vehicle that requires six joints from the elbow down to reach the part. :)

I agree about the design parameters and bean counters (especially the bean counters) but regardless of that fact it sure would be nice if they could all agree and make a car that is easier to fix. I know the right hand doesn't know what the left is doing, but think of the warranty money they could save by spending an extra $1million on engineering it for easy repair.

Excellent reply DRW1000. I am an engineering student and as one of the requirements for my program I have to attend meetings with working engineers to get a feel for the different feilds. What you described is the single largest gripe that I have heard from every single engineer. I am amazed at how often I hear them describe this exact issue. This problem seems to cross all feilds of engineering, and I was once told by a computer engineer that his company was given an award for a product that they never actually designed and were never going to, solely because the marketing department convinced everyone that they had it.

Engineers don't have as much creative control as you would think, and if they did they would still try hard to be conservative since they are liable for anything that doesn't work. When something goes horribly wrong they tend to want a long history of problem free usage behind their technology to justify their design choices, and therefore tend to stick with the tried tested and true even if a new technology can do it better. The engineer behind the Tacoma Narrows bridge was investigated but got off the hook because the general design used had been successful in the past.

In the end it's the bean counters that control the product.

I agree....When I need to rortate an engine to access the rear bank of spark plugs or lift the engine up 3 inches to change a water pump I curse the engineers more than anyone................lol

That is the rub with engineering. They have a lot of their creativity taken away yet they sure do take the blame.

One thing I have learned through FSAE. Last year at competition, I talked to a Dodge engineer that had brought out an SRT-10 Ram, and a race spec viper. I was talking to him about the viper, and we came to the subject of power. He said that they only put a slightly more mild cam in it, bumping the power up by 50hp. Now I know Henessy is out there making 1100hp vipers, to which I mentioned. His reply was "Well, this car still has a full warranty"

Curtis, get her a mid 80's 4Runner, those things are damn near indestructible.

That is the rub with engineering. They have a lot of their creativity taken away yet they sure do take the blame.

Not just by the consumer either, they also take the blame from management.

During one of my co-ops the engineers were talking about problems with setting up design goal schedules.

When they got a new design they would layout all their goals and the expected time frame. Then they would set a few weeks for miscellaneous troubleshooting. It was just extra time for solving issues that arose during design that could not be foreseen.

Although unforeseen problems are common to engineering, management thought it sounded unnecessary as they expect everything to be done correctly the first time. Management was upset that engineering even tired to add it.

As a result, problems arose and they needed to be fixed. The program went over-schedule so the buyer was upset and in turn management was upset at engineering for not completing the design on time.

Here's another one, I would like to thank GM's engineer's for a terrible design.

Freakin' 1997 Chevy S10 Blazer with the remote oil filter under the shield. Guess what? Them lines blew off a customers car and now we get to put a new engine in it. What a horse shit design :shakehead From talking with Chevy this is not the first time it's happen, sounds to be very common. Just pull out the trans dip stick, that right there should let a buyer know this vehicle is JUNK! Trans dipstick starts rusting badly in the first year.

Curtis, I agree Aerostars are hell to work, Chevy Astro are just as bad.


Transverse mounted "V" engines and front wheel drive should be banned!
Took Cadillac how long to realize 300+HP to the front wheels is a joke. What fun is that?

Customers ask is car A better than car b, I say they are all junk. They're gonne break sooner or later.

Not just by the consumer either, they also take the blame from management.

During one of my co-ops the engineers were talking about problems with setting up design goal schedules.

When they got a new design they would layout all their goals and the expected time frame. Then they would set a few weeks for miscellaneous troubleshooting. It was just extra time for solving issues that arose during design that could not be foreseen.

Although unforeseen problems are common to engineering, management thought it sounded unnecessary as they expect everything to be done correctly the first time. Management was upset that engineering even tired to add it.

As a result, problems arose and they needed to be fixed. The program went over-schedule so the buyer was upset and in turn management was upset at engineering for not completing the design on time.


Here's the one that really makes me laugh. A lot of engineering companies offer monetary bonus for meeting schedule, budget.....

What they don't understand is that most engineers really don't care about a few extra dollars. (they don't offer that much) What they should offer is a bonus in the form of creative control. Then they would see results.

At my place when we are behind on schedule which often occaurs 1 week into the porgram we get programme management holding daily meetings to discuss hoe to get on track. One thought that always crosses my mind is "hold less meetings and we will catch up"

Dilberts aren't that far from the truth

most of the engineers and designers I've met under the age of 50 have never worked on cars. The companies want clueless but degreed individuals they can train their way instead of ex mechanics and gear heads like the good ol days. And yes I'm from the Detroit area so I've met many of these overpaid fools.:)

Exactly why I dropped out of auto school and quit my job at a garage. Was only six months into it and couldn't take it anymore. I understand why they say there is such a shortage of techs.

Pontiac sunfires aren't the worst oil filters to get to, but they are a pain in the ass and it seemed like every other oil change that came in was a sunfire.

Technology sucks period, screw it, i'm going to go live in a cabin by myself way out in the woods with nothing, but some candles for light and a gun to kill my dinner.