Our Community is 940,000 Strong. Join Us.


2005 Mustang ~ Drag Class question


JekylandHyde
02-10-2005, 08:51 AM
Ford sells the "white body Mustangs" this year.
It is basically a 2005 chassis with a built in roll cage. They are made for racing (off road) pruposes only.
I think they go for around $4000 (no engine, suspension, brakes, etc).

If someone bought one of these and prepared for the Grand-Am road racing, BUT they also wanted to drag race it competitvely. What NHRA class would it be in? What Series is there to run in?

Although I have extensive NHRA drag experience, it is in the Sport Compact classes ... I am not familiar with the ins-n-outs of the Big engine Domestic classes.

Thanks for any help.

drdisque
02-10-2005, 02:46 PM
there aren't any real NHRA touring classes for Unibody cars. I'd suggest running in the NMRA http://www.nmraracing.com/ or the NSCA http://www.nsca-racing.com/

there's classes to suit the level of development you want to put in.

JekylandHyde
02-10-2005, 02:53 PM
Excellent, that is the kind of information I needed.

Teh second link references "Street" cars ... this will not be even remotely streetable, does that matter?

500
02-10-2005, 03:42 PM
I don't think these "body in white" units come with any sort of roll cage. The price is listed as $3500 which is a super deal just for the production line body panels, a minimal cage would add $1500 to $1800 and an extensive cage with nascar door bars and fuel cell protection and mounts, suspension pickup points tied in would easily cost $2500 +. There are too many applications for these cars for one roll cage design to satisfy.

I also doubt they come with any paint. That is what "body in white" means - no paint. Factory supported racers have been getting this type of assistence since the 60's.

JekylandHyde
02-10-2005, 09:34 PM
I don't think these "body in white" units come with any sort of roll cage.

Dan Davis, Director of Ford Racing Technology, seems to disagree:
"The chassis, or "Body-in-White," has been seam-welded and the safety cage has been structurally optimized and designed for ultimate vehicle performance, durability and safety. This race-prepared chassis allows Ford Racing to extend its offerings to include other types of racing, including drag racing."
http://www.seriouswheels.com/top-2005-Ford-Mustang-Racing-Performance-Parts-2004-SEMA.htm

The price is listed as $3500 which is a super deal just for the production line body panels, a minimal cage would add $1500 to $1800 and an extensive cage.
I suspect Ford would be more interested in getting these cars out there and racing, than they would be in making a few $$ off them. It's a marketing tool.

So back to the question at hand. If you bought one of these a prepped it for the Grand-Am series, but also wanted to drag race it ... what class in what series would it be in?

drdisque
02-10-2005, 09:54 PM
I'd probably run in NMRA EFI Renegade, Drag Radial, or Open Comp.

chevytrucks92
02-10-2005, 09:54 PM
Don't they just seperate the heads up classes by Super Gas, Pro Mod, etc?

I don't know. I have never been to an NHRA sanctioned event.

JekylandHyde
02-10-2005, 10:04 PM
drdisque, can you give me a basic scoop on the difference between those classes?

Thank you for your time, I sincerely appreciate it.

500
02-10-2005, 10:25 PM
Go to www.nhra.com

Probably Comp and the 3 super classes [ 8.90 9.90 10.90 ] are all such a car would fit. Maybe not Super Street { 10.90 }. I seem to remember some restrictions that might affect you.

The 'safety cage' in a production vehicle is not a roll cage.

http://www.rsportscars.com/eng/articles/mustanggt_grand_am.asp

None of the pics of the body in white have any roll cage bits showing.

If you are a member of NHRA you should have a copy of the rule book.

500

500
02-10-2005, 10:32 PM
Don't they just seperate the heads up classes by Super Gas, Pro Mod, etc?

I don't know. I have never been to an NHRA sanctioned event.

You should join the NHRA. You get a subscription to National Dragster and it will open up a whole new world of sportsmen racing for you. You might find yourself wanting to do some divisional races.

I have a bud that has been class champ a couple of times at Atlanta Dragway and was 2nd or 3rd last year. He also won the foot brake class at Super Chevy last year. I have been trying to get him to go run some divisionals but he is more interested in the bracket races.

Another bud won his class at the Indy Nationals back in the 80's. That's a pretty awesome trophy to have on the mantel. It's the same one you see Force or WJ or them guys getting !

500

chevytrucks92
02-10-2005, 11:17 PM
You should join the NHRA. You get a subscription to National Dragster and it will open up a whole new world of sportsmen racing for you. You might find yourself wanting to do some divisional races.

I have a bud that has been class champ a couple of times at Atlanta Dragway and was 2nd or 3rd last year. He also won the foot brake class at Super Chevy last year. I have been trying to get him to go run some divisionals but he is more interested in the bracket races.

Another bud won his class at the Indy Nationals back in the 80's. That's a pretty awesome trophy to have on the mantel. It's the same one you see Force or WJ or them guys getting !

500

I would love to do that someday. I would be more interested in the index classes (9.90, etc.) I think rather then just straight heads up. My preference is bracket racing however (like your buddy).

My car would need a little work to be ready to race on a sanctioned track (drive shaft loop, updated belts and fuel cell-both are well over 5 years old). I dont think I'd need a parachute (what is it, 9.99-down that requires a chute?).

Other then that, it'd be ready to go I think.

But yeah, I would love to be able to do NHRA events, or even IHRA events (preferrable bracket events). Maybe someday. I graduate college this May, so maybe next summer I can take a few road trips to some of the sanctioned tracks.

500
02-11-2005, 08:00 AM
You don't have a driveshaft loop ?? I am amazed that there is any track in the USA that doesn't require them. Even if they are not required it is foolish to run without one. If the front u-joint breaks the driveshaft drops down and digs into the asphalt flipping your car end over end.

drdisque
02-11-2005, 09:52 AM
all the rules for those NMRA classes are on the website (I don't have the classes memorized either so I'm no more enlightened on the subject than you are, I just picked those 3 from my vague familiarity with them and the brief description on the NMRA website.

JekylandHyde
02-11-2005, 09:57 AM
Ok, thanks for the insight. I will do some research from here.

chevytrucks92
02-11-2005, 10:46 AM
You don't have a driveshaft loop ?? I am amazed that there is any track in the USA that doesn't require them. Even if they are not required it is foolish to run without one. If the front u-joint breaks the driveshaft drops down and digs into the asphalt flipping your car end over end.

Pretty sure it doesn't have one.

Seems like it used to have one, but he (my uncle) took it off becuase we had several transmission problems at one time (like 3 or 4 trannies in a years time).

I can't swear to that, but they was something that it had that was a safety feature, that we took off becuase of some trouble we had with the car (taking the trans. in and out).

Either way, it'll have one shortly.l

dampachi
02-11-2005, 01:31 PM
I knew it! You do really want a Mustang Jeff!

JekylandHyde
02-11-2005, 01:34 PM
I would never buy a Mustang myself, but I would not turn down the opportunity to race one. Before that can happen, I just need to find out what class & series I could race it in :)

chevytrucks92
02-11-2005, 07:58 PM
500,

I actually do have a drive shaft loop on my car, along with the top shield for the transmission. What's missing is the bottem two straps that go under the transmission.

Now I dont know the purpose of those straps, but it used to have them on it, now it doesn't.

It does have a drive-shaft loop however.

500
02-11-2005, 08:54 PM
I would have been surprised if there was not a driveshaft loop.

The trans-sheilds are needed because transmissions do blow up. I have seen pics of transmission tunnels split open on vehicles with the stock steel floorpans. You have to remember that the PG was designed for about 200 hp max. 6 cyls and 2bbl V8's. GM did send them out behind more powerful motors but they didn't last very long.

chevytrucks92
02-11-2005, 10:18 PM
I would have been surprised if there was not a driveshaft loop.

The trans-sheilds are needed because transmissions do blow up. I have seen pics of transmission tunnels split open on vehicles with the stock steel floorpans. You have to remember that the PG was designed for about 200 hp max. 6 cyls and 2bbl V8's. GM did send them out behind more powerful motors but they didn't last very long.

Well, this one has been built considerabley (just freshened at the start of last season-I figure this engine is pushing 500 hp, 500+ lbs-tq, car weighs around 2700 lbs not including me and it runs 1.4xs at Bristol and Clay City-good tracks-1.5xs where I normally race-bad hooking track in the 60, and will run 4.3x w/new slicks (4.2xs at any other track) in the 330, and mid 6s in the 1/8th-so it has to atleast have 500 hp I would assume).

We used to have trouble with busting belhousings before (that's why the bottem straps on the tranny shield are gone, they made it a hassle to take the trans. in and out). Eitherway, with or without the shield, I dont think it would help much for this car. The shield is probably just allum. anyways and thats what the floor boards are.

I think the only hold up for me running at a sanctioned track would just be out of date belts and fuel cell (not sure if they even check the fuel cell at the closest 1/8th mile tracks). The belts are well over the 3 year limit however, though they show no signs of being worn out.

The car has metal valve stems ( we got jumped on to one time at an 1/8th track for NOT having metal valve stems). I plan on gettin new belts, probably late in the summer, but I'm not going to fool with the fuel cell.

Its not fast enough to have to have a certified chassis either (0-6.00 seconds has to have that at 1/8th tracks, this car runs 6.60-6.70s). So i'm good on all of that I think except for the belts.

500
02-12-2005, 07:46 AM
The best my Camaro ran was:
60' 1.761
330 5.112
660 7.990 @ 84.91
1000 10.510
1320 12.674 @ 103.69

78 Camaro 2600 w/driver.
350 std bore
cast flattops
461 heads, 1.94 1.50 , ported
Performer intake
600 Holley vac secondary
Cam Dynamics 228@.050 .480 lift Hyd
67 Z28 Valve springs, long slot rockers
Moroso pan { ran one qt low }
T350 full manual that I built
10" cheap torque convertor.
12bolt 4.88 { really needed 4.11 } mini spool :o
28x9 MT slicks
Vega manual strg box
6pt roll bar
Custom weld-in subframe conns.
Spun alum wheels fr & rr.
Fiberglass hood.
etc etc.

The car quit pulling at about 1000'. A 4.11 would have let the car go quicker. All the intermediate times say the car sould have went 12.2 in the 1/4.
The footbrake class break was 13.00 so I had to retard the timing and run in the throttle stop to slow it down.

Later
500

MR2Driver
02-12-2005, 01:07 PM
Are you thinking of dropping hyde's 3S-GTE in a *GASP* Mustang chassis....

Say it aint so...

JekylandHyde
02-12-2005, 01:50 PM
No Lachean, this has nothing to do with Hyde or MR2s. This is a whole different car and a whole different potentiality in life. :)

chevytrucks92
02-12-2005, 10:11 PM
Hyde: Good luck with whatever you do, and keep us posted.

500: Mine is a 400 bored .030 (406),

10.5:1 forged pistons
5.7" forged rods
steel crank (standard stroke for 400 I reckon)
not sure what the duration of the cam is, but its supposed to around .600 lift roller.
Dart Pro One cast iron heads, supposed to have atleast 2.08, 1.60 valves
fully ported, and supposedly have hte chambers filled in (to make up for the flat top pistons-I've never seen the heads off the engine though, engine was sort of gave to us by a shop to make up for an engine they built that had the bottem end go on two seperate occassions)
7-quart oil pan
Edelbrock Victor Jr Intake, fully ported
Holley 750 cfm Pro Form carb with 90+ jets w/jet extensions (front wheels come up, without the extensions it runs out of gas)
.513 gear (would probably need .488-which we have-to run the 1/4)
31x14 Good Year Eagle "Dragway Special" D-5 compound
All electronics
5000 stall converter (only leave the line at 3400 rpms however, so I'm sure the Converter would never stall at 5000 now, 4000 would probably be its limit but the car is impossible to drive if you leave at anything over 3600 rpms)
Powerglide with a 1.77 shaft (I think, it did have the shorter 1.83 or 1.88 but we had the taller one put it with this last overhaul to try and calm down the launch)
4-link rear suspension w/coil over shocks
rear disc brakes
fiberglass doors, hatch, front end
allum. floor boards


That's all I really know about the engine/tranny. We had terrible bad luck last season at the beginning of the year with the bottem end, so alot of the thigns were changed around. One time was just bad bearings to begin with, and the other time, the shop internally balanced the engine, but forgot to tell us, so we used our 400 balancer and flywheel, and well, you can imagine what happened to the engine (if you can't, it cracked the block in the lifter valley after one burnout and about a half track run in 330 ft!).

Now my uncle told me I could use his other 406, which is pretty much identical to this one, with the exception of 12.5:1 pistons and Dart allum. heads. Also think it has a .640 lift cam. I plan on using it after this year (provided this engine holds together, it basically only has about 12 or so weekends of racing on it)

This setup has never been to an 1/8th track, so I can't say for sure what it would run, but I would bet it'll atleast run 6.70s becuase we had a 355 with similar specs that would do that. And the 60 and 330 times were similar on the two engines (of course the 406 is slightly faster).

My best time with the car is a 1.523 60 ft and a 4.439 330 ET. That came on very wore slicks (chords are starting to show, lol-it will get new slicks when the season starts, provided it does, the lease is up for the track I race at, so time will tell). The other 406 I mentioned on those same wore out slicks ran a 1.46 60ft and a 4.26 330 ET when my uncle still drove the car. Now the slicks weren't nearly as wore at that time and the track was actually hooking good, but still wore enough to effect the ETs and the track never really hooked up after half-way through the season (when I started driving).

So I think my 10:20-10:50 estimate for the 1/4 would be pretty close.

500
02-13-2005, 05:56 PM
Having longer rods is good for a 400. I disassembled a stock rod 400 for a customer and the cyl walls were in rough shape down at the bottom of the bore. His Manley forged pistons were much harder than the stock cast and the combination of poor rod angularity near bdc and the hard pistons did a number on his block. 6"+ rods are best for 400's.

I had been collecting parts for a trick motor when I quite car racing and started riding motorcycles again. I had a 350 010 020 { high tin & high nickel content } block. .030 Venolia forged, domed pistons for a 327. Large journal 327 steel crank from either a heavy truck or 68 Vette. Vic Jr, Holley 750. I was planning on running the heads off the 350 with some more port work and 2.02 1.60 valves. Later maybe some Brodix Track 1 alum heads. Roller cam, SS roller rockers etc.

I had 5 or 6 PG cores and was going to convert to one of those.

Got burned out and quit. Atlanta Dragway runs their bracket program at night and physically I do not do well when my sleep pattern gets screwed with. If you make the late rounds you don't get home until 1:00 or 2:00 in the morning. Rob bought a motorhome so he could just stay at the track and come home Sunday morning. I would rather start the program at about 9AM and be on the way home before 6:00pm like a national event.

500

You have a cool car. I would paint it up like Grumpy's Toy. The first small block Pro Stocker.

chevytrucks92
02-13-2005, 07:46 PM
I love drag racing at night. Where I race, the gates open at 4 and time trials start at 6 PM. If there is a good turn out, then you'll be there to 1 or 2 AM. It's only about 35 minutes away from where I live though, so its not too bad and I'm only 21 years old, so the late part of it doesn't really bother me.

I think all of the tracks even remotely close run on pretty much the same schedule (except early in the season and late, when everybody runs on Sunday).

Thanks! The car has Casper on the doors right now (that's why there is little ghosts where the headlights are supposed to be). Its probably the best liked car where we race.

I would like to have some kind of mouse on wheels decal to put on the hood scoop (to signify the small block under the hood). I would like to build a 400 with a 4 inch stroke crank and 6 inch rods. I think when bored .030, that makes a 421, but I dont really know. I'd also like to have 2.10 intake valves.

My uncle now has a 1976 Vega with a 302 SBC.
http://files.automotiveforums.com/gallery/watermark.php?file=/500/159122Red_Vega_at_Track-med.jpg
(car now has decals on it)

Now that is one good running engine! He bought the car at the last part of this past season, and only really got to race it 2 or 3 times. It has Broddix allum heads and has to be well built. The guy he bought it from showed us a ticket in an 1/8th where it run 6.55 @ 104 mph. The car is supposed to weigh 2400-2500 pounds minus the driver. Those 302s can sure stand the RPMs now. He chips it at 7400 in the water and launches however high the converter will stall, and shifts at 7000 rpms. Mine is chipped at 7000 in the water, launches on 3400 rpms, and shifts at 6300 rpms.

Add your comment to this topic!